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philochristos
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2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
annanicole
Posts: 19,784
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2/23/2015 1:54:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Do you believe that actual sin itself is transferred from parent to offspring?

Is there such a thing as a non-elect infant dying?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 1:54:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Do you believe that actual sin itself is transferred from parent to offspring?

I'm not sure what you mean by "actual sin itself." If my dad did X, there's no sense in which I myself did X just because my dad did.

Ezekiel 18 addresses the subject of whether a parent's guilt can be transferred to one's offspring, and the answer there is no.

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

Is there such a thing as a non-elect infant dying?

It's possible, but whether there actually is such a thing, I don't know. It is only my personal sentimentality that inclines me to doubt it.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,598
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2/23/2015 2:31:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

Do you think that is just a fairy tale and that humans are not in a fallen state?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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2/23/2015 2:54:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 2:31:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

Do you think that is just a fairy tale and that humans are not in a fallen state?

No, I don't think it's just a fairy tale. I think humans ARE in a fallen state.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
annanicole
Posts: 19,784
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2/23/2015 2:57:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:54:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Do you believe that actual sin itself is transferred from parent to offspring?

I'm not sure what you mean by "actual sin itself." If my dad did X, there's no sense in which I myself did X just because my dad did.

Ezekiel 18 addresses the subject of whether a parent's guilt can be transferred to one's offspring, and the answer there is no.

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

So the guilt (not the consequences, but the guilt) of sin of Adam was passed right along to Cain, Abel, and Seth - and they passed it along, and their offspring passed it along. Exactly how is this guilt passed on?

Is there such a thing as a non-elect infant dying?

It's possible, but whether there actually is such a thing, I don't know. It is only my personal sentimentality that inclines me to doubt it.

Thus, many God's people die in infancy, while Satan's proceed right on into adulthood?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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2/23/2015 3:04:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 2:57:17 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:54:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Do you believe that actual sin itself is transferred from parent to offspring?

I'm not sure what you mean by "actual sin itself." If my dad did X, there's no sense in which I myself did X just because my dad did.

Ezekiel 18 addresses the subject of whether a parent's guilt can be transferred to one's offspring, and the answer there is no.

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

So the guilt (not the consequences, but the guilt) of sin of Adam was passed right along to Cain, Abel, and Seth - and they passed it along, and their offspring passed it along. Exactly how is this guilt passed on?

It's passed on by imputation. Just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who are in Christ, so also is Adam's unrighteousness imputed to those who are in Adam. Christ is kind of like the second Adam. When we become his, he is our representative, and his righteousness is credited to us. When we are born from a descendent of Adam, Adam is our representative, and his guilt is imputed to us.

Is there such a thing as a non-elect infant dying?

It's possible, but whether there actually is such a thing, I don't know. It is only my personal sentimentality that inclines me to doubt it.

Thus, many God's people die in infancy, while Satan's proceed right on into adulthood?

Yes, that happens. As Solomon put it, "I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility; there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecclesiastes 7:15).
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
annanicole
Posts: 19,784
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2/23/2015 3:17:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:04:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:57:17 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:54:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Do you believe that actual sin itself is transferred from parent to offspring?

I'm not sure what you mean by "actual sin itself." If my dad did X, there's no sense in which I myself did X just because my dad did.

Ezekiel 18 addresses the subject of whether a parent's guilt can be transferred to one's offspring, and the answer there is no.

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

So the guilt (not the consequences, but the guilt) of sin of Adam was passed right along to Cain, Abel, and Seth - and they passed it along, and their offspring passed it along. Exactly how is this guilt passed on?

It's passed on by imputation. Just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who are in Christ, so also is Adam's unrighteousness imputed to those who are in Adam. Christ is kind of like the second Adam. When we become his, he is our representative, and his righteousness is credited to us. When we are born from a descendent of Adam, Adam is our representative, and his guilt is imputed to us.

Could you give me all the Bible references concerning "imputed sin"?

Is there such a thing as a non-elect infant dying?

It's possible, but whether there actually is such a thing, I don't know. It is only my personal sentimentality that inclines me to doubt it.

Thus, many God's people die in infancy, while Satan's proceed right on into adulthood?

Yes, that happens. As Solomon put it, "I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility; there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecclesiastes 7:15).

Solomon hardly said that it is impossible for a non-elect infant to die, did he? Thus, when God instructed King Saul to "utterly destroy the Amalekites", He was actually telling him to kill a bunch of elect infants, even though the adult Amalekites were a wicked people. That doesn't make much sense.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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2/23/2015 3:26:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:17:54 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:04:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:57:17 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:54:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Do you believe that actual sin itself is transferred from parent to offspring?

I'm not sure what you mean by "actual sin itself." If my dad did X, there's no sense in which I myself did X just because my dad did.

Ezekiel 18 addresses the subject of whether a parent's guilt can be transferred to one's offspring, and the answer there is no.

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

So the guilt (not the consequences, but the guilt) of sin of Adam was passed right along to Cain, Abel, and Seth - and they passed it along, and their offspring passed it along. Exactly how is this guilt passed on?

It's passed on by imputation. Just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who are in Christ, so also is Adam's unrighteousness imputed to those who are in Adam. Christ is kind of like the second Adam. When we become his, he is our representative, and his righteousness is credited to us. When we are born from a descendent of Adam, Adam is our representative, and his guilt is imputed to us.

Could you give me all the Bible references concerning "imputed sin"?

No, not all of them, but check out Romans 5. Also, you might check out John Murray's book, The Imputation of Adam's Sin, and Jonathan Edward's book, The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin.

Is there such a thing as a non-elect infant dying?

It's possible, but whether there actually is such a thing, I don't know. It is only my personal sentimentality that inclines me to doubt it.

Thus, many God's people die in infancy, while Satan's proceed right on into adulthood?

Yes, that happens. As Solomon put it, "I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility; there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecclesiastes 7:15).

Solomon hardly said that it is impossible for a non-elect infant to die, did he?

No, he didn't, but your question was whether many of God's people die in infancy while Satan's proceed into adulthood.

Thus, when God instructed King Saul to "utterly destroy the Amalekites", He was actually telling him to kill a bunch of elect infants, even though the adult Amalekites were a wicked people. That doesn't make much sense.

Okay.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,598
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2/23/2015 3:31:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 2:54:53 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:31:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

Do you think that is just a fairy tale and that humans are not in a fallen state?

No, I don't think it's just a fairy tale. I think humans ARE in a fallen state.

Fair enough, would you describe the fallen state of man as is written in Scriptures?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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2/23/2015 3:37:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:31:39 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:54:53 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:31:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

Do you think that is just a fairy tale and that humans are not in a fallen state?

No, I don't think it's just a fairy tale. I think humans ARE in a fallen state.

Fair enough, would you describe the fallen state of man as is written in Scriptures?

Sure. The curses put on Adam and Eve because of the fall are listed in Genesis 3. They include Adam having to live by the sweat of his brow and having to die. Eve's pain in childbirth would increase. In Romans, Paul explains that we are all sinful because of Adam. Everybody sins.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
annanicole
Posts: 19,784
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2/23/2015 3:44:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:26:00 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:17:54 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:04:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:57:17 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:54:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Do you believe that actual sin itself is transferred from parent to offspring?

I'm not sure what you mean by "actual sin itself." If my dad did X, there's no sense in which I myself did X just because my dad did.

Ezekiel 18 addresses the subject of whether a parent's guilt can be transferred to one's offspring, and the answer there is no.

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

So the guilt (not the consequences, but the guilt) of sin of Adam was passed right along to Cain, Abel, and Seth - and they passed it along, and their offspring passed it along. Exactly how is this guilt passed on?

It's passed on by imputation. Just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who are in Christ, so also is Adam's unrighteousness imputed to those who are in Adam. Christ is kind of like the second Adam. When we become his, he is our representative, and his righteousness is credited to us. When we are born from a descendent of Adam, Adam is our representative, and his guilt is imputed to us.

Could you give me all the Bible references concerning "imputed sin"?

No, not all of them, but check out Romans 5. Also, you might check out John Murray's book, The Imputation of Adam's Sin, and Jonathan Edward's book, The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin.

That's because the phrase "imputed sin" or "transferred sin" is not even found in the Bible.

Is there such a thing as a non-elect infant dying?

It's possible, but whether there actually is such a thing, I don't know. It is only my personal sentimentality that inclines me to doubt it.

Thus, many God's people die in infancy, while Satan's proceed right on into adulthood?

Yes, that happens. As Solomon put it, "I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility; there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecclesiastes 7:15).

Solomon hardly said that it is impossible for a non-elect infant to die, did he?

No, he didn't, but your question was whether many of God's people die in infancy while Satan's proceed into adulthood.

Thus, when God instructed King Saul to "utterly destroy the Amalekites", He was actually telling him to kill a bunch of elect infants, even though the adult Amalekites were a wicked people. That doesn't make much sense.

Okay.

You are willing to accept that all of the Amalekite infants who were slaughtered by the Israelites were somehow elect? Yet all of their parents were non-elect?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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2/23/2015 3:49:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:44:08 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:26:00 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:17:54 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:04:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:57:17 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:54:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Do you believe that actual sin itself is transferred from parent to offspring?

I'm not sure what you mean by "actual sin itself." If my dad did X, there's no sense in which I myself did X just because my dad did.

Ezekiel 18 addresses the subject of whether a parent's guilt can be transferred to one's offspring, and the answer there is no.

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

So the guilt (not the consequences, but the guilt) of sin of Adam was passed right along to Cain, Abel, and Seth - and they passed it along, and their offspring passed it along. Exactly how is this guilt passed on?

It's passed on by imputation. Just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who are in Christ, so also is Adam's unrighteousness imputed to those who are in Adam. Christ is kind of like the second Adam. When we become his, he is our representative, and his righteousness is credited to us. When we are born from a descendent of Adam, Adam is our representative, and his guilt is imputed to us.

Could you give me all the Bible references concerning "imputed sin"?

No, not all of them, but check out Romans 5. Also, you might check out John Murray's book, The Imputation of Adam's Sin, and Jonathan Edward's book, The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin.

That's because the phrase "imputed sin" or "transferred sin" is not even found in the Bible.

Neither is the phrase, "God is a trinity," but so what?


Is there such a thing as a non-elect infant dying?

It's possible, but whether there actually is such a thing, I don't know. It is only my personal sentimentality that inclines me to doubt it.

Thus, many God's people die in infancy, while Satan's proceed right on into adulthood?

Yes, that happens. As Solomon put it, "I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility; there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecclesiastes 7:15).

Solomon hardly said that it is impossible for a non-elect infant to die, did he?

No, he didn't, but your question was whether many of God's people die in infancy while Satan's proceed into adulthood.

Thus, when God instructed King Saul to "utterly destroy the Amalekites", He was actually telling him to kill a bunch of elect infants, even though the adult Amalekites were a wicked people. That doesn't make much sense.

Okay.

You are willing to accept that all of the Amalekite infants who were slaughtered by the Israelites were somehow elect? Yet all of their parents were non-elect?

As I said in answer to your original question, it's possible, but I don't know.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,598
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2/23/2015 3:52:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:37:32 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:31:39 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:54:53 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:31:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

Do you think that is just a fairy tale and that humans are not in a fallen state?

No, I don't think it's just a fairy tale. I think humans ARE in a fallen state.

Fair enough, would you describe the fallen state of man as is written in Scriptures?

Sure. The curses put on Adam and Eve because of the fall are listed in Genesis 3. They include Adam having to live by the sweat of his brow and having to die. Eve's pain in childbirth would increase. In Romans, Paul explains that we are all sinful because of Adam. Everybody sins.

Okay, so based on Adam's disobedience to God, he had a curse placed on him, one that was passed down to all mankind after him. That would mean by nature we are all sinners, that is now the nature of all mankind, yes?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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2/23/2015 3:54:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:52:28 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:37:32 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:31:39 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:54:53 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:31:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

Do you think that is just a fairy tale and that humans are not in a fallen state?

No, I don't think it's just a fairy tale. I think humans ARE in a fallen state.

Fair enough, would you describe the fallen state of man as is written in Scriptures?

Sure. The curses put on Adam and Eve because of the fall are listed in Genesis 3. They include Adam having to live by the sweat of his brow and having to die. Eve's pain in childbirth would increase. In Romans, Paul explains that we are all sinful because of Adam. Everybody sins.

Okay, so based on Adam's disobedience to God, he had a curse placed on him, one that was passed down to all mankind after him. That would mean by nature we are all sinners, that is now the nature of all mankind, yes?

Yes.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
annanicole
Posts: 19,784
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2/23/2015 3:55:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:49:08 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:44:08 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:26:00 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:17:54 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:04:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:57:17 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:54:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Do you believe that actual sin itself is transferred from parent to offspring?

I'm not sure what you mean by "actual sin itself." If my dad did X, there's no sense in which I myself did X just because my dad did.

Ezekiel 18 addresses the subject of whether a parent's guilt can be transferred to one's offspring, and the answer there is no.

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

So the guilt (not the consequences, but the guilt) of sin of Adam was passed right along to Cain, Abel, and Seth - and they passed it along, and their offspring passed it along. Exactly how is this guilt passed on?

It's passed on by imputation. Just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who are in Christ, so also is Adam's unrighteousness imputed to those who are in Adam. Christ is kind of like the second Adam. When we become his, he is our representative, and his righteousness is credited to us. When we are born from a descendent of Adam, Adam is our representative, and his guilt is imputed to us.

Could you give me all the Bible references concerning "imputed sin"?

No, not all of them, but check out Romans 5. Also, you might check out John Murray's book, The Imputation of Adam's Sin, and Jonathan Edward's book, The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin.

That's because the phrase "imputed sin" or "transferred sin" is not even found in the Bible.

Neither is the phrase, "God is a trinity," but so what?

Then just used the word "three". That's in there. So is the word "godhead".


Is there such a thing as a non-elect infant dying?

It's possible, but whether there actually is such a thing, I don't know. It is only my personal sentimentality that inclines me to doubt it.

Thus, many God's people die in infancy, while Satan's proceed right on into adulthood?

Yes, that happens. As Solomon put it, "I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility; there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecclesiastes 7:15).

Solomon hardly said that it is impossible for a non-elect infant to die, did he?

No, he didn't, but your question was whether many of God's people die in infancy while Satan's proceed into adulthood.

Thus, when God instructed King Saul to "utterly destroy the Amalekites", He was actually telling him to kill a bunch of elect infants, even though the adult Amalekites were a wicked people. That doesn't make much sense.

Okay.

You are willing to accept that all of the Amalekite infants who were slaughtered by the Israelites were somehow elect? Yet all of their parents were non-elect?

As I said in answer to your original question, it's possible, but I don't know.

Well, it's either that or infant damnation. Take your pick. It's your doctrine.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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2/23/2015 3:59:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:55:50 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:49:08 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:44:08 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:26:00 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:17:54 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:04:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:57:17 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:54:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Do you believe that actual sin itself is transferred from parent to offspring?

I'm not sure what you mean by "actual sin itself." If my dad did X, there's no sense in which I myself did X just because my dad did.

Ezekiel 18 addresses the subject of whether a parent's guilt can be transferred to one's offspring, and the answer there is no.

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

So the guilt (not the consequences, but the guilt) of sin of Adam was passed right along to Cain, Abel, and Seth - and they passed it along, and their offspring passed it along. Exactly how is this guilt passed on?

It's passed on by imputation. Just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who are in Christ, so also is Adam's unrighteousness imputed to those who are in Adam. Christ is kind of like the second Adam. When we become his, he is our representative, and his righteousness is credited to us. When we are born from a descendent of Adam, Adam is our representative, and his guilt is imputed to us.

Could you give me all the Bible references concerning "imputed sin"?

No, not all of them, but check out Romans 5. Also, you might check out John Murray's book, The Imputation of Adam's Sin, and Jonathan Edward's book, The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin.

That's because the phrase "imputed sin" or "transferred sin" is not even found in the Bible.

Neither is the phrase, "God is a trinity," but so what?

Then just used the word "three". That's in there. So is the word "godhead".

Three what? What does "godhead" mean? I don't have any problem using unBiblical phrases to codify Biblical concepts. I see nothing in the world wrong with it. The question isn't whether the word "Trinity" is in the Bible, but whether the concept codified by the word is Biblical. In the same way, it's irrelevant whether the phrase "imputed sin" is Biblical, but whether the concept codified by that phrase is Biblical.



Is there such a thing as a non-elect infant dying?

It's possible, but whether there actually is such a thing, I don't know. It is only my personal sentimentality that inclines me to doubt it.

Thus, many God's people die in infancy, while Satan's proceed right on into adulthood?

Yes, that happens. As Solomon put it, "I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility; there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecclesiastes 7:15).

Solomon hardly said that it is impossible for a non-elect infant to die, did he?

No, he didn't, but your question was whether many of God's people die in infancy while Satan's proceed into adulthood.

Thus, when God instructed King Saul to "utterly destroy the Amalekites", He was actually telling him to kill a bunch of elect infants, even though the adult Amalekites were a wicked people. That doesn't make much sense.

Okay.

You are willing to accept that all of the Amalekite infants who were slaughtered by the Israelites were somehow elect? Yet all of their parents were non-elect?

As I said in answer to your original question, it's possible, but I don't know.

Well, it's either that or infant damnation. Take your pick. It's your doctrine.

My doctrine doesn't say anything about whether the Amalekite infants were elect or not.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
annanicole
Posts: 19,784
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2/23/2015 4:06:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:59:21 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:55:50 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:49:08 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:44:08 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:26:00 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:17:54 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:04:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:57:17 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:54:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Do you believe that actual sin itself is transferred from parent to offspring?

I'm not sure what you mean by "actual sin itself." If my dad did X, there's no sense in which I myself did X just because my dad did.

Ezekiel 18 addresses the subject of whether a parent's guilt can be transferred to one's offspring, and the answer there is no.

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

So the guilt (not the consequences, but the guilt) of sin of Adam was passed right along to Cain, Abel, and Seth - and they passed it along, and their offspring passed it along. Exactly how is this guilt passed on?

It's passed on by imputation. Just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who are in Christ, so also is Adam's unrighteousness imputed to those who are in Adam. Christ is kind of like the second Adam. When we become his, he is our representative, and his righteousness is credited to us. When we are born from a descendent of Adam, Adam is our representative, and his guilt is imputed to us.

Could you give me all the Bible references concerning "imputed sin"?

No, not all of them, but check out Romans 5. Also, you might check out John Murray's book, The Imputation of Adam's Sin, and Jonathan Edward's book, The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin.

That's because the phrase "imputed sin" or "transferred sin" is not even found in the Bible.

Neither is the phrase, "God is a trinity," but so what?

Then just used the word "three". That's in there. So is the word "godhead".

Three what? What does "godhead" mean? I don't have any problem using unBiblical phrases to codify Biblical concepts. I see nothing in the world wrong with it. The question isn't whether the word "Trinity" is in the Bible, but whether the concept codified by the word is Biblical. In the same way, it's irrelevant whether the phrase "imputed sin" is Biblical, but whether the concept codified by that phrase is Biblical.

The use of the word "trinity" (like the use of the phrase "imputed sin") causes more confusion that anything else. If such language was important in conveying "Biblical concepts", I feel sure that some inspired writer would have felt the need to employ them. "Imputed sin" carries a meaning best left to the imagination of the user: most mean that the guilt of Adam's sin way back yonder in the garden somehow transferred right along down the line to everyone else, including Jesus, I suppose.




Is there such a thing as a non-elect infant dying?

It's possible, but whether there actually is such a thing, I don't know. It is only my personal sentimentality that inclines me to doubt it.

Thus, many God's people die in infancy, while Satan's proceed right on into adulthood?

Yes, that happens. As Solomon put it, "I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility; there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecclesiastes 7:15).

Solomon hardly said that it is impossible for a non-elect infant to die, did he?

No, he didn't, but your question was whether many of God's people die in infancy while Satan's proceed into adulthood.

Thus, when God instructed King Saul to "utterly destroy the Amalekites", He was actually telling him to kill a bunch of elect infants, even though the adult Amalekites were a wicked people. That doesn't make much sense.

Okay.

You are willing to accept that all of the Amalekite infants who were slaughtered by the Israelites were somehow elect? Yet all of their parents were non-elect?

As I said in answer to your original question, it's possible, but I don't know.

Well, it's either that or infant damnation. Take your pick. It's your doctrine.

My doctrine doesn't say anything about whether the Amalekite infants were elect or not.

Does your doctrine teach infant damnation.? If not, then by necessity you'll have to claim they were elect.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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2/23/2015 4:12:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 4:06:07 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:59:21 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:55:50 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:49:08 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:44:08 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:26:00 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:17:54 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:04:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:57:17 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:54:33 PM, annanicole wrote:

Is there such a thing as a non-elect infant dying?

It's possible, but whether there actually is such a thing, I don't know. It is only my personal sentimentality that inclines me to doubt it.

Thus, many God's people die in infancy, while Satan's proceed right on into adulthood?

Yes, that happens. As Solomon put it, "I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility; there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecclesiastes 7:15).

Solomon hardly said that it is impossible for a non-elect infant to die, did he?

No, he didn't, but your question was whether many of God's people die in infancy while Satan's proceed into adulthood.

Thus, when God instructed King Saul to "utterly destroy the Amalekites", He was actually telling him to kill a bunch of elect infants, even though the adult Amalekites were a wicked people. That doesn't make much sense.

Okay.

You are willing to accept that all of the Amalekite infants who were slaughtered by the Israelites were somehow elect? Yet all of their parents were non-elect?

As I said in answer to your original question, it's possible, but I don't know.

Well, it's either that or infant damnation. Take your pick. It's your doctrine.

My doctrine doesn't say anything about whether the Amalekite infants were elect or not.

Does your doctrine teach infant damnation.? If not, then by necessity you'll have to claim they were elect.

My doctrine teaches the damnation of all the non-elect and the salvation of all the elect, but it doesn't teach anything about whether infants are elect or not.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/23/2015 4:14:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Why doesn't God elect all human beings?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,598
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2/23/2015 4:14:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:54:11 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:52:28 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:37:32 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:31:39 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:54:53 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:31:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

Do you think that is just a fairy tale and that humans are not in a fallen state?

No, I don't think it's just a fairy tale. I think humans ARE in a fallen state.

Fair enough, would you describe the fallen state of man as is written in Scriptures?

Sure. The curses put on Adam and Eve because of the fall are listed in Genesis 3. They include Adam having to live by the sweat of his brow and having to die. Eve's pain in childbirth would increase. In Romans, Paul explains that we are all sinful because of Adam. Everybody sins.

Okay, so based on Adam's disobedience to God, he had a curse placed on him, one that was passed down to all mankind after him. That would mean by nature we are all sinners, that is now the nature of all mankind, yes?

Yes.

That's what puzzles me. When I go through the list of things God considers 'sinful', I find that I have rarely if ever committed sins, certainly not any of the more serious ones. There was that time as a kid, I lied about breaking a vase. But, when I think long and hard about it, I can't think of anyone I know who sins, either. In fact, what I observe is quite the contrary, I see a great deal of people who are compassionate and altruistic, behaving and treating each other as such day after day, consistently.

Sure, the odd bit of nastiness rears it's ugly head now and again in one from or another that could be considered sinful, but these acts are few and far between, carried out by a very tiny group of people, usually the same ones committing multiple acts.

We can look at statistics of any given town, city country, whatever, and see the acts committed. We see the very same thing, we see billions of people every single day behaving in a compassionate and altruistic manner and a very tiny minority of "sinful" people who don't behave that way.

That is not to say we don't all have the capacity and ability to commit horrific acts. we most certainly do, but that's not how we behave. Having the ability to commit a sinful act is not the same as having a sinful nature. The proof is always in the putting.

And, that's pretty much the proof I see in the world, far more people on a regular basis behave contrary to having a sinful nature.

If we are sinful by nature, why are we not all committing sins all the time?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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2/23/2015 4:19:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 4:14:32 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Why doesn't God elect all human beings?

Some humans are not elect because they are made for the purpose of demonstrating God's wrath against sin. As Solomon put it, "The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil" (Proverbs 16:4).
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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2/23/2015 4:28:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 4:14:32 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Why doesn't God elect all human beings?

If I may interject here, also being a "Calvinist", I'd say the real question is why does God elect anyone? Surely that would seem a more logical injustice, since none in our belief, deserve to be elected.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
annanicole
Posts: 19,784
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2/23/2015 4:29:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 4:12:20 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 4:06:07 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:59:21 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:55:50 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:49:08 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:44:08 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:26:00 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:17:54 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:04:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:57:17 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:54:33 PM, annanicole wrote:

Is there such a thing as a non-elect infant dying?

It's possible, but whether there actually is such a thing, I don't know. It is only my personal sentimentality that inclines me to doubt it.

Thus, many God's people die in infancy, while Satan's proceed right on into adulthood?

Yes, that happens. As Solomon put it, "I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility; there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecclesiastes 7:15).

Solomon hardly said that it is impossible for a non-elect infant to die, did he?

No, he didn't, but your question was whether many of God's people die in infancy while Satan's proceed into adulthood.

Thus, when God instructed King Saul to "utterly destroy the Amalekites", He was actually telling him to kill a bunch of elect infants, even though the adult Amalekites were a wicked people. That doesn't make much sense.

Okay.

You are willing to accept that all of the Amalekite infants who were slaughtered by the Israelites were somehow elect? Yet all of their parents were non-elect?

As I said in answer to your original question, it's possible, but I don't know.

Well, it's either that or infant damnation. Take your pick. It's your doctrine.

My doctrine doesn't say anything about whether the Amalekite infants were elect or not.

Does your doctrine teach infant damnation.? If not, then by necessity you'll have to claim they were elect.

My doctrine teaches the damnation of all the non-elect and the salvation of all the elect, but it doesn't teach anything about whether infants are elect or not.

That's not answering anything. MY doctrine teaches "the damnation of all the non-elect and the salvation of all the elect" as well, but it doesn't teach that individual election or non-election is predetermined before or at birth. Yours does. Therefore, you must hold some sort of belief concerning the salvation/damnation of infants.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/23/2015 4:34:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 4:19:12 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 4:14:32 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Why doesn't God elect all human beings?

Some humans are not elect because they are made for the purpose of demonstrating God's wrath against sin. As Solomon put it, "The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil" (Proverbs 16:4).

Wouldn't Jesus' sacrifice (assuming a retributive theory of atonement) fulfill that requirement? Or the non-election of one human? Or the non-election of the devil?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
philochristos
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2/23/2015 4:35:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 4:14:58 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

If we are sinful by nature, why are we not all committing sins all the time?

I think we are. Most people who know me think I'm a swell chap, and I'm certainly not cruel, but when I'm totally honest with myself, my sin is disgusting. I can only speculate as to why people think they are "basically good." I think it may be due to a lack of appreciation for God's holiness. The more you appreciate God's holiness, the more aware you are of your own fallenness. When I think of how frequently I'm motivated by selfishness, laziness, hubris, cowardice, etc, the more aware I am of my own sins.

Dale Carnegie explained in his book, How to Win Friends and Influence People, that hardly anybody blames themselves for anything. Whenever we do wrong, we immediately seek to justify our actions. C.S. Lewis made the same point in Mere Christianity. He said that people feel the sting of guilt so severely that they can't stand to think of themselves as being morally guilty of anything. Consequently, they are always ready with excuses to let themselves off the hook. This may have something to do with why a lot of people don't think of themselves as sinful.

Another reason is that people grade themselves on a bell curve. I had a Buddhist philosophy teacher object to my point of view because none of us were out murdering people or robbing banks. He had very low standards for what counts as a "good person." God's standard is moral perfection. Jesus said, "Be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect."

Our sinful natures are most evident in young children. You don't have to teach your children to be selfish or to lie. You have to teach them NOT do be that way.

Any rebellion against God is sinful, and we are all born in rebellion against God until God changes our hearts. The greatest good is God himself. A good person is a person who loves what is good, aspires to what is good, promotes what is good, etc. Whatever goodness we have, then, ought to be directed to magnifying the glory of God. Everything we do, we ought to do with a view toward manifesting God's glory. As Paul put it, "Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God" (1 Corinthians 10:31). But that is exactly the opposite of how most of us live our lives. The greatest commandment is to love God with all of our being, but not one of us keeps that commandment.

To have a sinful nature doesn't mean we are as bad as it's possible for us to be. It simply means that we have sinful desires. We have a natural inclination to sin. We all have it.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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2/23/2015 4:36:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:54:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Do you believe that actual sin itself is transferred from parent to offspring?

I'm not sure what you mean by "actual sin itself." If my dad did X, there's no sense in which I myself did X just because my dad did.

Ezekiel 18 addresses the subject of whether a parent's guilt can be transferred to one's offspring, and the answer there is no.

But Adam is a special case because he represents all of humanity. I do believe his guilt is transferred to all humans, which is why all humans are in a fallen state.

Is there such a thing as a non-elect infant dying?

It's possible, but whether there actually is such a thing, I don't know. It is only my personal sentimentality that inclines me to doubt it.

How is Adam special and why does he represent all of humanity. Adam was a Jew . He is only mentioned in the Jewish bible and not found in any other religions. The Jewish bible is only 4000 years old. Modern humans appeared some 200,000 years ago. So Adam could not have been the first humans.
Israel and the Jews are not the oldest civilization. Egypt, Mesopotamia, India and China were advanced civilizations that existed thousands of years before Israel. They had established religions that differ very much from the bible and don't mention Adam.
The Jews created the god of the bible after the world was created and much later than other established religions and retroactively credited their God with the creation of the universe even though historically that is blatantly false.
So why would a Jewish story of an implausible first human called Adam's fall from grace pass his sin to all mankind. Just like why did the God of the Jews destroy the world with a giant flood for being displeased with the Jews who broke his commandments when the rest of the world were never informed about these Jewish laws. The God of the bible only spoke to the Jews. He was only God of the Jews.
popculturepooka
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2/23/2015 4:37:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 4:28:34 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 2/23/2015 4:14:32 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Why doesn't God elect all human beings?

If I may interject here, also being a "Calvinist", I'd say the real question is why does God elect anyone? Surely that would seem a more logical injustice, since none in our belief, deserve to be elected.

I don't know if that is the real question. I would say it's because he's gracious and being that God has no limits on his graciousness it doesn't seem like he has to "ration" out his graciousness since he does as he pleases. If that's true, the question could still be asked why God isn't so inclined to be gracious with everyone.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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2/23/2015 4:37:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 4:29:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 4:12:20 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 4:06:07 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:59:21 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:55:50 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:49:08 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:44:08 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:26:00 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:17:54 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:04:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:57:17 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/23/2015 2:03:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 2/23/2015 1:54:33 PM, annanicole wrote:

Is there such a thing as a non-elect infant dying?

It's possible, but whether there actually is such a thing, I don't know. It is only my personal sentimentality that inclines me to doubt it.

Thus, many God's people die in infancy, while Satan's proceed right on into adulthood?

Yes, that happens. As Solomon put it, "I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility; there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecclesiastes 7:15).

Solomon hardly said that it is impossible for a non-elect infant to die, did he?

No, he didn't, but your question was whether many of God's people die in infancy while Satan's proceed into adulthood.

Thus, when God instructed King Saul to "utterly destroy the Amalekites", He was actually telling him to kill a bunch of elect infants, even though the adult Amalekites were a wicked people. That doesn't make much sense.

Okay.

You are willing to accept that all of the Amalekite infants who were slaughtered by the Israelites were somehow elect? Yet all of their parents were non-elect?

As I said in answer to your original question, it's possible, but I don't know.

Well, it's either that or infant damnation. Take your pick. It's your doctrine.

My doctrine doesn't say anything about whether the Amalekite infants were elect or not.

Does your doctrine teach infant damnation.? If not, then by necessity you'll have to claim they were elect.

My doctrine teaches the damnation of all the non-elect and the salvation of all the elect, but it doesn't teach anything about whether infants are elect or not.

That's not answering anything. MY doctrine teaches "the damnation of all the non-elect and the salvation of all the elect" as well, but it doesn't teach that individual election or non-election is predetermined before or at birth. Yours does. Therefore, you must hold some sort of belief concerning the salvation/damnation of infants.

I believe predestination applies just as well to infants as it does to adults, but again, there's nothing in my doctrine that tells us who is predestined and who isn't.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Envisage
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2/23/2015 4:38:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 1:51:52 PM, philochristos wrote:
I'm a Calvinist. Grill me!

Wtf is Calvinism, and how is it distinct from other major Christianity sects (serious question, I am ignorant here)