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Love According to the Islamic Tradition

YassineB
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2/23/2015 3:26:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
According to the Islamic Tradition Love is 10 stages, in each of these stages there are degrees the sum of which is 60 degrees. If might use the wrong words in English here, if you know better words please let me know.

Stage 1 : Ta'alluq = Attachment.
- Ta'alluq literally means stick or cling to something by a rope or a cohesive matter. In this case, it's when the heart of the Lover tends towards & becomes attached to the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one starts having more & imposing thoughts about the other.

Stage 2 : Irada = Desire.
- Once the heart of the Lover is attached to the Beloved it strives to pursue the other, & that"s When the heart of the Lover willingly desires & searches for the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one starts having constant thoughts about the other.

Stage 3 : Sababa = Falling in Love.
- Sababa comes from the root "Sabba", we say: "Sabbat ash-Shitaa" = The rain falls , "Sabba ash-Shallal" = the water falls down the waterfall. In other words, it describes free falling under the effect of gravity. So, Sababa is when the heart of the Lover unwillingly seeks the Beloved as if it's falling down a water fall. This stage is noticeable when one gets sensible & anxious whenever the thought of the other crosses one's mind, without one's control.

Stage 4 : Gharam = Irreversible Love.
- The adjective "Gharama" describes that which is perpetually inseparable. & thus, Gharam is when the heart of the Lover reaches the bottom of its fall where it can never go up again. This stage is noticeable when one feels that the other belongs only to oneself.

Stage 5 : Mawadda = Pure Love.
- Mawadda is the first of the two stable stages of Love & is achieved through two kinds of Love:
> Wudd: when the heart of the Lover is in compete serenity with the presence of the Beloved.
> Widad: reciprocally, when the heart of the Beloved is in complete serenity with the presence of the Beloved.
- In this stage: Pure Love is a shared mutual Love where each of the two lovers belong to the other, & each accepts & is in serenity with the other. This stage is noticeable when one feels that oneself & the other belong exclusively to each-other.

Stage 6 : Shaghaf = Encompassing Love.
- Shaghaf literally means the "Pericardium" (the sac surrounding the heart), in this case it refers to when the heart of the Lovers becomes enclosed by the Love for the Beloved, & its survival depends on it.. This stage is noticeable when all one's senses pale in comparison to one"s emotion of love, even excruciating pain may feel like nothing.

Stage 7 : 'Ishq' = Ecstatic/Crazy Love.
- When the heart of the Lover gets intoxicated with the Love of the Beloved & completely loses control over itself. This stage is noticeable when one is in a state of constant & irrational drunkenness, completely obsessed with & addicted to the other.

Stage 8 : Tatayyum = Adoration.
- Tatayyum comes from the root "Tayyama" which means: enslave & take away one's mind. Tatayyum is when the heart of the Lover detaches itself from its owner & seeks only the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one completely loses one's mind and willingly becomes a slave to the other.

Stage 9 : Ta'abbud = Worship.
- In this case, Ta'abbud does literally mean "Worship". It's when the heart of the Lover belongs entirely to the Beloved to the point where it needs to seek it no more. This stage is noticeable when one literally exists solely & entirely for the other & because of the other.

Stage 10 : Khulla.
- Khulla is the second stable stage of Love, it's when the hearts of the Lover & the Beloved thoroughly penetrate each-other entirely through every single fibre of their being to the point where they become one homogenous single unity.

=> What are your thoughts?
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,482
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2/23/2015 3:32:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
wait a sec dude! they believe Islam is a barbaric religion which we muslims dont know love and stuff like that and we only obsess to kill innocents :/
Never fart near dog
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
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2/23/2015 3:41:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:26:01 PM, YassineB wrote:
According to the Islamic Tradition Love is 10 stages, in each of these stages there are degrees the sum of which is 60 degrees. If might use the wrong words in English here, if you know better words please let me know.

Stage 1 : Ta'alluq = Attachment.
- Ta'alluq literally means stick or cling to something by a rope or a cohesive matter. In this case, it's when the heart of the Lover tends towards & becomes attached to the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one starts having more & imposing thoughts about the other.

Stage 2 : Irada = Desire.
- Once the heart of the Lover is attached to the Beloved it strives to pursue the other, & that"s When the heart of the Lover willingly desires & searches for the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one starts having constant thoughts about the other.

Stage 3 : Sababa = Falling in Love.
- Sababa comes from the root "Sabba", we say: "Sabbat ash-Shitaa" = The rain falls , "Sabba ash-Shallal" = the water falls down the waterfall. In other words, it describes free falling under the effect of gravity. So, Sababa is when the heart of the Lover unwillingly seeks the Beloved as if it's falling down a water fall. This stage is noticeable when one gets sensible & anxious whenever the thought of the other crosses one's mind, without one's control.

Stage 4 : Gharam = Irreversible Love.
- The adjective "Gharama" describes that which is perpetually inseparable. & thus, Gharam is when the heart of the Lover reaches the bottom of its fall where it can never go up again. This stage is noticeable when one feels that the other belongs only to oneself.

Stage 5 : Mawadda = Pure Love.
- Mawadda is the first of the two stable stages of Love & is achieved through two kinds of Love:
> Wudd: when the heart of the Lover is in compete serenity with the presence of the Beloved.
> Widad: reciprocally, when the heart of the Beloved is in complete serenity with the presence of the Beloved.
- In this stage: Pure Love is a shared mutual Love where each of the two lovers belong to the other, & each accepts & is in serenity with the other. This stage is noticeable when one feels that oneself & the other belong exclusively to each-other.

Stage 6 : Shaghaf = Encompassing Love.
- Shaghaf literally means the "Pericardium" (the sac surrounding the heart), in this case it refers to when the heart of the Lovers becomes enclosed by the Love for the Beloved, & its survival depends on it.. This stage is noticeable when all one's senses pale in comparison to one"s emotion of love, even excruciating pain may feel like nothing.

Stage 7 : 'Ishq' = Ecstatic/Crazy Love.
- When the heart of the Lover gets intoxicated with the Love of the Beloved & completely loses control over itself. This stage is noticeable when one is in a state of constant & irrational drunkenness, completely obsessed with & addicted to the other.

Stage 8 : Tatayyum = Adoration.
- Tatayyum comes from the root "Tayyama" which means: enslave & take away one's mind. Tatayyum is when the heart of the Lover detaches itself from its owner & seeks only the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one completely loses one's mind and willingly becomes a slave to the other.

Stage 9 : Ta'abbud = Worship.
- In this case, Ta'abbud does literally mean "Worship". It's when the heart of the Lover belongs entirely to the Beloved to the point where it needs to seek it no more. This stage is noticeable when one literally exists solely & entirely for the other & because of the other.

Stage 10 : Khulla.
- Khulla is the second stable stage of Love, it's when the hearts of the Lover & the Beloved thoroughly penetrate each-other entirely through every single fibre of their being to the point where they become one homogenous single unity.

=> What are your thoughts?

Up to and including stage 5 would be considered rather normal, but the stages beyond that are just creepy.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
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2/23/2015 3:43:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:32:40 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
wait a sec dude! they believe Islam is a barbaric religion which we muslims dont know love and stuff like that and we only obsess to kill innocents :/

Based on some of the latter stages, love to Muslims appears to include obsessive behavior, stalking, mental disorders.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,482
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2/23/2015 3:51:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:43:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:32:40 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
wait a sec dude! they believe Islam is a barbaric religion which we muslims dont know love and stuff like that and we only obsess to kill innocents :/

Based on some of the latter stages, love to Muslims appears to include obsessive behavior, stalking, mental disorders.

my lovely DanneJeRusse Muslims are humans too, its the same if you compare to others, they are human muslims are humans , muslims are not aliens, they have feeling,desires and hopes, they are eating and sleeping. if you feel happy and sad sometime they are feeling these things too. equation for you - muslim = human. muslim =/= wide animal. if you like some more explaintion my dear child lovely boy ask me i will help you understand what it means if someone says "muslim". <3
Never fart near dog
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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2/23/2015 3:52:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Muhammadan idol worshipers' brains are not rationally organized as Muhammad's brainwashing seems to erase Muhammadan idolator's ability to tell right from wrong, good from evil, love from hate.

I don't have much use for Paul's theology but if you want to know what love is, Paul is the man of history to go to about defining it. None of you Muhammadan clones (clowns in Muhammad outfits worn outside and inside) can tell any non-Muhammadan about love as you all participate in the world's vilest religious acts of cruelty and hatred towards others by your silence of Muhammad's violent instructions carried out by fellow ghouls in Muhammadism. Ghouls would talk of "love" while their brethren hack the heads off of non-Muhammadans - - as per Muhammad's Quran instructions on how to deal with non-Muhammads.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/23/2015 4:03:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:43:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:32:40 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
wait a sec dude! they believe Islam is a barbaric religion which we muslims dont know love and stuff like that and we only obsess to kill innocents :/

Based on some of the latter stages, love to Muslims appears to include obsessive behavior, stalking, mental disorders.

- Not to muslims!!! Excessive Love does indeed have a crazy side, from stage 7 onward it's strait madness, unless the beloved is a deity & not a person.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
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2/23/2015 4:34:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:51:54 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:43:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:32:40 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
wait a sec dude! they believe Islam is a barbaric religion which we muslims dont know love and stuff like that and we only obsess to kill innocents :/

Based on some of the latter stages, love to Muslims appears to include obsessive behavior, stalking, mental disorders.

my lovely DanneJeRusse Muslims are humans too, its the same if you compare to others, they are human muslims are humans , muslims are not aliens, they have feeling,desires and hopes, they are eating and sleeping. if you feel happy and sad sometime they are feeling these things too. equation for you - muslim = human. muslim =/= wide animal. if you like some more explaintion my dear child lovely boy ask me i will help you understand what it means if someone says "muslim". <3

Yes, thank you for the strawman fallacy and other associated pointless comments, if I need any more of those, I'll be sure to give you a call.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
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2/23/2015 4:43:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 4:03:12 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:43:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:32:40 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
wait a sec dude! they believe Islam is a barbaric religion which we muslims dont know love and stuff like that and we only obsess to kill innocents :/

Based on some of the latter stages, love to Muslims appears to include obsessive behavior, stalking, mental disorders.

- Not to muslims!!! Excessive Love does indeed have a crazy side, from stage 7 onward it's strait madness, unless the beloved is a deity & not a person.

Yeah, very creepy stuff.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,482
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2/23/2015 5:15:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 4:03:12 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:43:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:32:40 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
wait a sec dude! they believe Islam is a barbaric religion which we muslims dont know love and stuff like that and we only obsess to kill innocents :/

Based on some of the latter stages, love to Muslims appears to include obsessive behavior, stalking, mental disorders.

- Not to muslims!!! Excessive Love does indeed have a crazy side, from stage 7 onward it's strait madness, unless the beloved is a deity & not a person.

he cant comprehend these things for him its like quantum physics beyond his mental capabilities :D
Never fart near dog
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/23/2015 5:17:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 5:15:52 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/23/2015 4:03:12 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:43:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:32:40 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
wait a sec dude! they believe Islam is a barbaric religion which we muslims dont know love and stuff like that and we only obsess to kill innocents :/

Based on some of the latter stages, love to Muslims appears to include obsessive behavior, stalking, mental disorders.

- Not to muslims!!! Excessive Love does indeed have a crazy side, from stage 7 onward it's strait madness, unless the beloved is a deity & not a person.

he cant comprehend these things for him its like quantum physics beyond his mental capabilities :D

- He is obsessed with me & feels the need to say the opposite of what I say, whatever it might be.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2015 5:38:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:26:01 PM, YassineB wrote:
According to the Islamic Tradition Love is 10 stages, in each of these stages there are degrees the sum of which is 60 degrees. If might use the wrong words in English here, if you know better words please let me know.

Stage 1 : Ta'alluq = Attachment.
- Ta'alluq literally means stick or cling to something by a rope or a cohesive matter. In this case, it's when the heart of the Lover tends towards & becomes attached to the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one starts having more & imposing thoughts about the other.

Stage 2 : Irada = Desire.
- Once the heart of the Lover is attached to the Beloved it strives to pursue the other, & that"s When the heart of the Lover willingly desires & searches for the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one starts having constant thoughts about the other.

Stage 3 : Sababa = Falling in Love.
- Sababa comes from the root "Sabba", we say: "Sabbat ash-Shitaa" = The rain falls , "Sabba ash-Shallal" = the water falls down the waterfall. In other words, it describes free falling under the effect of gravity. So, Sababa is when the heart of the Lover unwillingly seeks the Beloved as if it's falling down a water fall. This stage is noticeable when one gets sensible & anxious whenever the thought of the other crosses one's mind, without one's control.

Stage 4 : Gharam = Irreversible Love.
- The adjective "Gharama" describes that which is perpetually inseparable. & thus, Gharam is when the heart of the Lover reaches the bottom of its fall where it can never go up again. This stage is noticeable when one feels that the other belongs only to oneself.

Stage 5 : Mawadda = Pure Love.
- Mawadda is the first of the two stable stages of Love & is achieved through two kinds of Love:
> Wudd: when the heart of the Lover is in compete serenity with the presence of the Beloved.
> Widad: reciprocally, when the heart of the Beloved is in complete serenity with the presence of the Beloved.
- In this stage: Pure Love is a shared mutual Love where each of the two lovers belong to the other, & each accepts & is in serenity with the other. This stage is noticeable when one feels that oneself & the other belong exclusively to each-other.

Stage 6 : Shaghaf = Encompassing Love.
- Shaghaf literally means the "Pericardium" (the sac surrounding the heart), in this case it refers to when the heart of the Lovers becomes enclosed by the Love for the Beloved, & its survival depends on it.. This stage is noticeable when all one's senses pale in comparison to one"s emotion of love, even excruciating pain may feel like nothing.

Stage 7 : 'Ishq' = Ecstatic/Crazy Love.
- When the heart of the Lover gets intoxicated with the Love of the Beloved & completely loses control over itself. This stage is noticeable when one is in a state of constant & irrational drunkenness, completely obsessed with & addicted to the other.

Stage 8 : Tatayyum = Adoration.
- Tatayyum comes from the root "Tayyama" which means: enslave & take away one's mind. Tatayyum is when the heart of the Lover detaches itself from its owner & seeks only the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one completely loses one's mind and willingly becomes a slave to the other.

Stage 9 : Ta'abbud = Worship.
- In this case, Ta'abbud does literally mean "Worship". It's when the heart of the Lover belongs entirely to the Beloved to the point where it needs to seek it no more. This stage is noticeable when one literally exists solely & entirely for the other & because of the other.

Stage 10 : Khulla.
- Khulla is the second stable stage of Love, it's when the hearts of the Lover & the Beloved thoroughly penetrate each-other entirely through every single fibre of their being to the point where they become one homogenous single unity.

=> What are your thoughts?

This reminds me heavily of Anna Karenin, and the contrast between Anna and Vronsky/Levin and Kitty. One ends at the train tracks, and the other in peaceful repose. I'm guessing that taking love for another person to the 10th stage is discouraged?
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/23/2015 6:30:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 5:38:38 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:26:01 PM, YassineB wrote:
According to the Islamic Tradition Love is 10 stages, in each of these stages there are degrees the sum of which is 60 degrees. If might use the wrong words in English here, if you know better words please let me know.

Stage 1 : Ta'alluq = Attachment.
- Ta'alluq literally means stick or cling to something by a rope or a cohesive matter. In this case, it's when the heart of the Lover tends towards & becomes attached to the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one starts having more & imposing thoughts about the other.

Stage 2 : Irada = Desire.
- Once the heart of the Lover is attached to the Beloved it strives to pursue the other, & that"s When the heart of the Lover willingly desires & searches for the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one starts having constant thoughts about the other.

Stage 3 : Sababa = Falling in Love.
- Sababa comes from the root "Sabba", we say: "Sabbat ash-Shitaa" = The rain falls , "Sabba ash-Shallal" = the water falls down the waterfall. In other words, it describes free falling under the effect of gravity. So, Sababa is when the heart of the Lover unwillingly seeks the Beloved as if it's falling down a water fall. This stage is noticeable when one gets sensible & anxious whenever the thought of the other crosses one's mind, without one's control.

Stage 4 : Gharam = Irreversible Love.
- The adjective "Gharama" describes that which is perpetually inseparable. & thus, Gharam is when the heart of the Lover reaches the bottom of its fall where it can never go up again. This stage is noticeable when one feels that the other belongs only to oneself.

Stage 5 : Mawadda = Pure Love.
- Mawadda is the first of the two stable stages of Love & is achieved through two kinds of Love:
> Wudd: when the heart of the Lover is in compete serenity with the presence of the Beloved.
> Widad: reciprocally, when the heart of the Beloved is in complete serenity with the presence of the Beloved.
- In this stage: Pure Love is a shared mutual Love where each of the two lovers belong to the other, & each accepts & is in serenity with the other. This stage is noticeable when one feels that oneself & the other belong exclusively to each-other.

Stage 6 : Shaghaf = Encompassing Love.
- Shaghaf literally means the "Pericardium" (the sac surrounding the heart), in this case it refers to when the heart of the Lovers becomes enclosed by the Love for the Beloved, & its survival depends on it.. This stage is noticeable when all one's senses pale in comparison to one"s emotion of love, even excruciating pain may feel like nothing.

Stage 7 : 'Ishq' = Ecstatic/Crazy Love.
- When the heart of the Lover gets intoxicated with the Love of the Beloved & completely loses control over itself. This stage is noticeable when one is in a state of constant & irrational drunkenness, completely obsessed with & addicted to the other.

Stage 8 : Tatayyum = Adoration.
- Tatayyum comes from the root "Tayyama" which means: enslave & take away one's mind. Tatayyum is when the heart of the Lover detaches itself from its owner & seeks only the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one completely loses one's mind and willingly becomes a slave to the other.

Stage 9 : Ta'abbud = Worship.
- In this case, Ta'abbud does literally mean "Worship". It's when the heart of the Lover belongs entirely to the Beloved to the point where it needs to seek it no more. This stage is noticeable when one literally exists solely & entirely for the other & because of the other.

Stage 10 : Khulla.
- Khulla is the second stable stage of Love, it's when the hearts of the Lover & the Beloved thoroughly penetrate each-other entirely through every single fibre of their being to the point where they become one homogenous single unity.

=> What are your thoughts?

This reminds me heavily of Anna Karenin, and the contrast between Anna and Vronsky/Levin and Kitty. One ends at the train tracks, and the other in peaceful repose. I'm guessing that taking love for another person to the 10th stage is discouraged?

- Oh Yeah, Anna Karenina :-) , I keep hearing good things about it, I should probably try it, so, I am not sure what you're referring to here, sorry :P .

- According to the Islamic Tradition (& when I say Islamic Tradition here I mean the Qur'an), the stage of Mawaddah (Pure Love) is the kind of love that should naturally happen between a man & a woman. The next two stages: Shaghaf & 'Ishq' are not natural & are discouraged, for they influence one's love for God. The next two stages: Tatayyum & Ta'abud are forbidden, for they should be reserved for God. & the last one: Khulla is a predestination thing that can't be reached by humans unless specifically decreed by God.

- There is a Hadith where the Prophet expresses his love for Abu Bakr his life-long dearest friend, he says: "If I were to take a Khalil, I would have taken Abu Bakr, but he is my brother and my companion" <<< The friendship & love that united Muhammad (pbuh) & Abu Bakr was truly exceptional, & also mutual, they knew each other since they were 12 yo & 10 yo, & they stayed together for a lifetime, through the most unimaginable journey, all its good & all its bad. As Aisha reports, from the moment she remembers never has a day passed without Abu Bakr (her father) & Muhammad visiting each-other twice, even before her marriage. Now, that's a truly strong love, yet it has not reached Khulla.

- It there is one thing Arabs were good at, it's naming things. They gave 5,500 different names for 'Camels', 1,500 for Lions, 600 for Swords, 350 names for Sex. . . & they gave Love about 300 different names, each a different meaning, so, if there was a type of Love that tops all these 300, it must be SOME LOVE!!!

- In classical literature, the most popular & inspiring love stories are:
> Qays & his cousin Layla who grew up together & . . . Qays was called Majnun Layla (the possessed of Layla).
> 'Antar & 'Abla . . .
> Rumi & Shems . . .
> Qutuz & Jullanar . . .
(long story)
- In religious literature, the most famous ones are obviously:
> Muhammad & Khadija.
> Muhammad & Aisha.
> Muhammad & Abu Bakr.
> Ali & Fatimah.
> Rumi & Shems.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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2/23/2015 6:59:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 6:30:40 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 5:38:38 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
This reminds me heavily of Anna Karenin, and the contrast between Anna and Vronsky/Levin and Kitty. One ends at the train tracks, and the other in peaceful repose. I'm guessing that taking love for another person to the 10th stage is discouraged?

- Oh Yeah, Anna Karenina :-) , I keep hearing good things about it, I should probably try it, so, I am not sure what you're referring to here, sorry :P .

Great novel. Some say the greatest.

- According to the Islamic Tradition (& when I say Islamic Tradition here I mean the Qur'an), the stage of Mawaddah (Pure Love) is the kind of love that should naturally happen between a man & a woman. The next two stages: Shaghaf & 'Ishq' are not natural & are discouraged, for they influence one's love for God. The next two stages: Tatayyum & Ta'abud are forbidden, for they should be reserved for God. & the last one: Khulla is a predestination thing that can't be reached by humans unless specifically decreed by God.

- There is a Hadith where the Prophet expresses his love for Abu Bakr his life-long dearest friend, he says: "If I were to take a Khalil, I would have taken Abu Bakr, but he is my brother and my companion" <<< The friendship & love that united Muhammad (pbuh) & Abu Bakr was truly exceptional, & also mutual, they knew each other since they were 12 yo & 10 yo, & they stayed together for a lifetime, through the most unimaginable journey, all its good & all its bad. As Aisha reports, from the moment she remembers never has a day passed without Abu Bakr (her father) & Muhammad visiting each-other twice, even before her marriage. Now, that's a truly strong love, yet it has not reached Khulla.

- It there is one thing Arabs were good at, it's naming things. They gave 5,500 different names for 'Camels', 1,500 for Lions, 600 for Swords, 350 names for Sex. . . & they gave Love about 300 different names, each a different meaning, so, if there was a type of Love that tops all these 300, it must be SOME LOVE!!!

- In classical literature, the most popular & inspiring love stories are:
> Qays & his cousin Layla who grew up together & . . . Qays was called Majnun Layla (the possessed of Layla).
> 'Antar & 'Abla . . .
> Rumi & Shems . . .
> Qutuz & Jullanar . . .
(long story)
- In religious literature, the most famous ones are obviously:
> Muhammad & Khadija.
> Muhammad & Aisha.
> Muhammad & Abu Bakr.
> Ali & Fatimah.
> Rumi & Shems.

Do Arabs distinguish between the different kinds of love as well as the degree of intensity? For example, the Greeks had separate terms for Storge (familial love), Agape (divine or brotherly love - Christian connotations), Eros (sexual passion), and Philia (friendship). It seems like love as you have defined it is separated more by degree than by type.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Envisage
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2/23/2015 7:11:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:26:01 PM, YassineB wrote:
According to the Islamic Tradition Love is 10 stages, in each of these stages there are degrees the sum of which is 60 degrees. If might use the wrong words in English here, if you know better words please let me know.

Stage 1 : Ta'alluq = Attachment.
- Ta'alluq literally means stick or cling to something by a rope or a cohesive matter. In this case, it's when the heart of the Lover tends towards & becomes attached to the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one starts having more & imposing thoughts about the other.

Stage 2 : Irada = Desire.
- Once the heart of the Lover is attached to the Beloved it strives to pursue the other, & that"s When the heart of the Lover willingly desires & searches for the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one starts having constant thoughts about the other.

Stage 3 : Sababa = Falling in Love.
- Sababa comes from the root "Sabba", we say: "Sabbat ash-Shitaa" = The rain falls , "Sabba ash-Shallal" = the water falls down the waterfall. In other words, it describes free falling under the effect of gravity. So, Sababa is when the heart of the Lover unwillingly seeks the Beloved as if it's falling down a water fall. This stage is noticeable when one gets sensible & anxious whenever the thought of the other crosses one's mind, without one's control.

Stage 4 : Gharam = Irreversible Love.
- The adjective "Gharama" describes that which is perpetually inseparable. & thus, Gharam is when the heart of the Lover reaches the bottom of its fall where it can never go up again. This stage is noticeable when one feels that the other belongs only to oneself.

Stage 5 : Mawadda = Pure Love.
- Mawadda is the first of the two stable stages of Love & is achieved through two kinds of Love:
> Wudd: when the heart of the Lover is in compete serenity with the presence of the Beloved.
> Widad: reciprocally, when the heart of the Beloved is in complete serenity with the presence of the Beloved.
- In this stage: Pure Love is a shared mutual Love where each of the two lovers belong to the other, & each accepts & is in serenity with the other. This stage is noticeable when one feels that oneself & the other belong exclusively to each-other.

Stage 6 : Shaghaf = Encompassing Love.
- Shaghaf literally means the "Pericardium" (the sac surrounding the heart), in this case it refers to when the heart of the Lovers becomes enclosed by the Love for the Beloved, & its survival depends on it.. This stage is noticeable when all one's senses pale in comparison to one"s emotion of love, even excruciating pain may feel like nothing.

Stage 7 : 'Ishq' = Ecstatic/Crazy Love.
- When the heart of the Lover gets intoxicated with the Love of the Beloved & completely loses control over itself. This stage is noticeable when one is in a state of constant & irrational drunkenness, completely obsessed with & addicted to the other.

Stage 8 : Tatayyum = Adoration.
- Tatayyum comes from the root "Tayyama" which means: enslave & take away one's mind. Tatayyum is when the heart of the Lover detaches itself from its owner & seeks only the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one completely loses one's mind and willingly becomes a slave to the other.

Stage 9 : Ta'abbud = Worship.
- In this case, Ta'abbud does literally mean "Worship". It's when the heart of the Lover belongs entirely to the Beloved to the point where it needs to seek it no more. This stage is noticeable when one literally exists solely & entirely for the other & because of the other.

Stage 10 : Khulla.
- Khulla is the second stable stage of Love, it's when the hearts of the Lover & the Beloved thoroughly penetrate each-other entirely through every single fibre of their being to the point where they become one homogenous single unity.

=> What are your thoughts?

Okay...

1. Gives no insights into what love is
2. Love is even more poorly defined in Islamic tradition than in western and scientific understanding, and hence its terminology is quite useless pragmatically and scientifically
3. Zero evidence given that love is of that progression
4. Seems to just be a categorical system of sorting experiences and actions into compartments, again quite useless, the world is much messier than that, and love as a biological phenomenon simply doesn't progress in that manner

Thus I have two main thoughts on it.

1. It is false
2. It's not even false
YassineB
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2/23/2015 7:29:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 7:11:33 PM, Envisage wrote:
Okay...

1. Gives no insights into what love is.

- That's why I am here, the OP is supposed to generate a discussion: give & take, questions & answers.

2. Love is even more poorly defined in Islamic tradition than in western and scientific understanding, and hence its terminology is quite useless pragmatically and scientifically.

- I am gonna totally ignore this, since you have no idea how love is defined in the Islamic Tradition, or what it even is! You have to know something, know how to judge it, before you can even judge it!!! LoL.

3. Zero evidence given that love is of that progression.

- In the OP, sure, it isn't supposed to give any. Why is that even relevant?!

4. Seems to just be a categorical system of sorting experiences and actions into compartments, again quite useless, the world is much messier than that, and love as a biological phenomenon simply doesn't progress in that manner.

- I am gonna use Ajabi's good comeback: "you're making sh*t look like lobster". & again, you're speaking from pure lack of knowledge, as always! You're not a pantomath, there are world views other than your own that you haven't explored. Sometimes it's better to ask questions then to invent answers.
- 'Love as a biological phenomenon'!!! Never heard of such nonsense, & I thought you're a philosopher?! If you wanna approach love from a biological view, you're not gonna go far.

Thus I have two main thoughts on it.
1. It is false
2. It's not even false

- Here is what I am thinking: Envisage is back to his bad habit where he has no freaking idea what he is saying. ;-)
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

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http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
UndeniableReality
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2/23/2015 7:31:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 4:43:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 4:03:12 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:43:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:32:40 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
wait a sec dude! they believe Islam is a barbaric religion which we muslims dont know love and stuff like that and we only obsess to kill innocents :/

Based on some of the latter stages, love to Muslims appears to include obsessive behavior, stalking, mental disorders.

- Not to muslims!!! Excessive Love does indeed have a crazy side, from stage 7 onward it's strait madness, unless the beloved is a deity & not a person.

Yeah, very creepy stuff.

I agree. That sounds like very unhealthy attachment, obsession, and madness.
UndeniableReality
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2/23/2015 7:35:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 7:29:51 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 7:11:33 PM, Envisage wrote:
Okay...

1. Gives no insights into what love is.

- That's why I am here, the OP is supposed to generate a discussion: give & take, questions & answers.

2. Love is even more poorly defined in Islamic tradition than in western and scientific understanding, and hence its terminology is quite useless pragmatically and scientifically.

- I am gonna totally ignore this, since you have no idea how love is defined in the Islamic Tradition, or what it even is! You have to know something, know how to judge it, before you can even judge it!!! LoL.

I thought you were supposed to be explaining this in the OP.


3. Zero evidence given that love is of that progression.

- In the OP, sure, it isn't supposed to give any. Why is that even relevant?!

4. Seems to just be a categorical system of sorting experiences and actions into compartments, again quite useless, the world is much messier than that, and love as a biological phenomenon simply doesn't progress in that manner.

- I am gonna use Ajabi's good comeback: "you're making sh*t look like lobster". & again, you're speaking from pure lack of knowledge, as always! You're not a pantomath, there are world views other than your own that you haven't explored. Sometimes it's better to ask questions then to invent answers.
- 'Love as a biological phenomenon'!!! Never heard of such nonsense, & I thought you're a philosopher?! If you wanna approach love from a biological view, you're not gonna go far.

Thus I have two main thoughts on it.
1. It is false
2. It's not even false

- Here is what I am thinking: Envisage is back to his bad habit where he has no freaking idea what he is saying. ;-)

I think it's a reference to Feynmann failing a student (though I don't know if that is a true story or if the story originates elsewhere).
YassineB
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2/23/2015 7:43:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 7:35:31 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
I thought you were supposed to be explaining this in the OP.

- Well, when you say it like that. I thought it would be interesting to do the Stages instead, where lovers might relate to some of the stages ^_^ . A dry definition of Love & its conceptualisation is kinda boring, unless someone wants to discuss it.

Thus I have two main thoughts on it.
1. It is false
2. It's not even false

- Here is what I am thinking: Envisage is back to his bad habit where he has no freaking idea what he is saying. ;-)

I think it's a reference to Feynmann failing a student (though I don't know if that is a true story or if the story originates elsewhere).

- I thought it was really clever. Now I get it, Envisage just wanted to use the anecdote so bad, so he used up a whole post to make it happen. Well, at least he fooled me.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
YassineB
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2/23/2015 7:45:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 6:59:37 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/23/2015 6:30:40 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 5:38:38 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
This reminds me heavily of Anna Karenin, and the contrast between Anna and Vronsky/Levin and Kitty. One ends at the train tracks, and the other in peaceful repose. I'm guessing that taking love for another person to the 10th stage is discouraged?

- Oh Yeah, Anna Karenina :-) , I keep hearing good things about it, I should probably try it, so, I am not sure what you're referring to here, sorry :P .

Great novel. Some say the greatest.

- According to the Islamic Tradition (& when I say Islamic Tradition here I mean the Qur'an), the stage of Mawaddah (Pure Love) is the kind of love that should naturally happen between a man & a woman. The next two stages: Shaghaf & 'Ishq' are not natural & are discouraged, for they influence one's love for God. The next two stages: Tatayyum & Ta'abud are forbidden, for they should be reserved for God. & the last one: Khulla is a predestination thing that can't be reached by humans unless specifically decreed by God.

- There is a Hadith where the Prophet expresses his love for Abu Bakr his life-long dearest friend, he says: "If I were to take a Khalil, I would have taken Abu Bakr, but he is my brother and my companion" <<< The friendship & love that united Muhammad (pbuh) & Abu Bakr was truly exceptional, & also mutual, they knew each other since they were 12 yo & 10 yo, & they stayed together for a lifetime, through the most unimaginable journey, all its good & all its bad. As Aisha reports, from the moment she remembers never has a day passed without Abu Bakr (her father) & Muhammad visiting each-other twice, even before her marriage. Now, that's a truly strong love, yet it has not reached Khulla.

- It there is one thing Arabs were good at, it's naming things. They gave 5,500 different names for 'Camels', 1,500 for Lions, 600 for Swords, 350 names for Sex. . . & they gave Love about 300 different names, each a different meaning, so, if there was a type of Love that tops all these 300, it must be SOME LOVE!!!

- In classical literature, the most popular & inspiring love stories are:
> Qays & his cousin Layla who grew up together & . . . Qays was called Majnun Layla (the possessed of Layla).
> 'Antar & 'Abla . . .
> Rumi & Shems . . .
> Qutuz & Jullanar . . .
(long story)
- In religious literature, the most famous ones are obviously:
> Muhammad & Khadija.
> Muhammad & Aisha.
> Muhammad & Abu Bakr.
> Ali & Fatimah.
> Rumi & Shems.

Do Arabs distinguish between the different kinds of love as well as the degree of intensity? For example, the Greeks had separate terms for Storge (familial love), Agape (divine or brotherly love - Christian connotations), Eros (sexual passion), and Philia (friendship). It seems like love as you have defined it is separated more by degree than by type.

- Here I am talking about Love in its general definition: 'Possession of the Heart', the kind that exists between everything. I mean a tree can possess your heart, as can a rock or a person. & here, the names of the Stages of Love are derived from the Qur'an.

- But of course, there are names for specific types of Love, sometimes too specific (such as loving a particular animal, yep, creepy, the Arabs were creeps).
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
UndeniableReality
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2/23/2015 7:46:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 7:43:22 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 7:35:31 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
I thought you were supposed to be explaining this in the OP.

- Well, when you say it like that. I thought it would be interesting to do the Stages instead, where lovers might relate to some of the stages ^_^ . A dry definition of Love & its conceptualisation is kinda boring, unless someone wants to discuss it.

Thus I have two main thoughts on it.
1. It is false
2. It's not even false

- Here is what I am thinking: Envisage is back to his bad habit where he has no freaking idea what he is saying. ;-)

I think it's a reference to Feynmann failing a student (though I don't know if that is a true story or if the story originates elsewhere).

- I thought it was really clever. Now I get it, Envisage just wanted to use the anecdote so bad, so he used up a whole post to make it happen. Well, at least he fooled me.

It didn't come across that way to me. It seems a reasonable evaluation of the content of the OP.
YassineB
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2/23/2015 7:53:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 7:46:10 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 2/23/2015 7:43:22 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 7:35:31 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
I thought you were supposed to be explaining this in the OP.

- Well, when you say it like that. I thought it would be interesting to do the Stages instead, where lovers might relate to some of the stages ^_^ . A dry definition of Love & its conceptualisation is kinda boring, unless someone wants to discuss it.

Thus I have two main thoughts on it.
1. It is false
2. It's not even false

- Here is what I am thinking: Envisage is back to his bad habit where he has no freaking idea what he is saying. ;-)

I think it's a reference to Feynmann failing a student (though I don't know if that is a true story or if the story originates elsewhere).

- I thought it was really clever. Now I get it, Envisage just wanted to use the anecdote so bad, so he used up a whole post to make it happen. Well, at least he fooled me.

It didn't come across that way to me. It seems a reasonable evaluation of the content of the OP.

- Reasonable? Now, look what we have here, Envisage does have a talent to make sh*t look like lobster, he already convinced you?!

- If he knew what he was talking about I'd be inclined to evaluate his speech. That's not the first time he does something like that, he did before, at least with me, many times. He just makes assertions about stuff he is totally ignorant about, that's Unreasonable.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
YassineB
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2/23/2015 7:55:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 7:31:42 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 2/23/2015 4:43:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 4:03:12 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:43:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:32:40 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
wait a sec dude! they believe Islam is a barbaric religion which we muslims dont know love and stuff like that and we only obsess to kill innocents :/

Based on some of the latter stages, love to Muslims appears to include obsessive behavior, stalking, mental disorders.

- Not to muslims!!! Excessive Love does indeed have a crazy side, from stage 7 onward it's strait madness, unless the beloved is a deity & not a person.

Yeah, very creepy stuff.

I agree. That sounds like very unhealthy attachment, obsession, and madness.

- I mean, worship?!!!! You gotta be a brainless mindless nut to worship the one you're supposed to love.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
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2/23/2015 8:28:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 7:46:10 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 2/23/2015 7:43:22 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 7:35:31 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
I thought you were supposed to be explaining this in the OP.

- Well, when you say it like that. I thought it would be interesting to do the Stages instead, where lovers might relate to some of the stages ^_^ . A dry definition of Love & its conceptualisation is kinda boring, unless someone wants to discuss it.

Thus I have two main thoughts on it.
1. It is false
2. It's not even false

- Here is what I am thinking: Envisage is back to his bad habit where he has no freaking idea what he is saying. ;-)

I think it's a reference to Feynmann failing a student (though I don't know if that is a true story or if the story originates elsewhere).

- I thought it was really clever. Now I get it, Envisage just wanted to use the anecdote so bad, so he used up a whole post to make it happen. Well, at least he fooled me.

It didn't come across that way to me. It seems a reasonable evaluation of the content of the OP.

That's what I saw, too, totally agree.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Envisage
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2/23/2015 8:40:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 7:29:51 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 7:11:33 PM, Envisage wrote:
Okay...

1. Gives no insights into what love is.

- That's why I am here, the OP is supposed to generate a discussion: give & take, questions & answers.

... That doesn't address the point that it yields no insight. Literally. No. Insight.

2. Love is even more poorly defined in Islamic tradition than in western and scientific understanding, and hence its terminology is quite useless pragmatically and scientifically.

- I am gonna totally ignore this, since you have no idea how love is defined in the Islamic Tradition, or what it even is! You have to know something, know how to judge it, before you can even judge it!!! LoL.

I am judging it by this verbose 10 point post you provided and the nebulous notion of love that escapes conceptual closure. Sounds like another word destined for the non-cognitive bin.

3. Zero evidence given that love is of that progression.

- In the OP, sure, it isn't supposed to give any. Why is that even relevant?!

Because that is exactly how you presented it, as a progression, or ascension. Which then becomes a factual claim subject to falsification and testability.

4. Seems to just be a categorical system of sorting experiences and actions into compartments, again quite useless, the world is much messier than that, and love as a biological phenomenon simply doesn't progress in that manner.

- I am gonna use Ajabi's good comeback: "you're making sh*t look like lobster". & again, you're speaking from pure lack of knowledge, as always! You're not a pantomath, there are world views other than your own that you haven't explored. Sometimes it's better to ask questions then to invent answers.

Actually that was my most substantive point. Love has been studied on several levels, and like many things in psychology and physiology, the world is quite murky, and hence the notion of dividing it up into 10 neat little categories is laughable. Ignores all of psychology, which relates to recognition, association, pattern seeking, etc. Ignores physiology, including the hormones involved in sexual attraction, pleasure, jealousy, friendship, etc. These have all been studied and the world simply isn't black and white. It is you that seems content on forwarding excrement as a fine cuisine.

- 'Love as a biological phenomenon'!!! Never heard of such nonsense, & I thought you're a philosopher?! If you wanna approach love from a biological view, you're not gonna go far.

I am no philosopher.... I never claimed to be.

And again, where is your evidence for your claim that love cannot be studied biologically? Again, you seem content on making stuff up, exactly the thing you are trying to accuse me of. I will quote in kind:

"I do not know how to refute an incredulous stare" - Sean Carroll

Thus I have two main thoughts on it.
1. It is false
2. It's not even false

- Here is what I am thinking: Envisage is back to his bad habit where he has no freaking idea what he is saying. ;-)

I am quite aware of my ignorance in studies of love, but that doesn't stop me from realising that others are making baseless claims about that field that are almost certainly fill of hot air. I know that humans are simply too dumb to know how reality works by sitting in an armchair, that is why empiricism is so pragmatic and successful.
Vox_Veritas
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2/23/2015 8:44:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 3:26:01 PM, YassineB wrote:
According to the Islamic Tradition Love is 10 stages, in each of these stages there are degrees the sum of which is 60 degrees. If might use the wrong words in English here, if you know better words please let me know.

Stage 1 : Ta'alluq = Attachment.
- Ta'alluq literally means stick or cling to something by a rope or a cohesive matter. In this case, it's when the heart of the Lover tends towards & becomes attached to the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one starts having more & imposing thoughts about the other.

Stage 2 : Irada = Desire.
- Once the heart of the Lover is attached to the Beloved it strives to pursue the other, & that"s When the heart of the Lover willingly desires & searches for the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one starts having constant thoughts about the other.

Stage 3 : Sababa = Falling in Love.
- Sababa comes from the root "Sabba", we say: "Sabbat ash-Shitaa" = The rain falls , "Sabba ash-Shallal" = the water falls down the waterfall. In other words, it describes free falling under the effect of gravity. So, Sababa is when the heart of the Lover unwillingly seeks the Beloved as if it's falling down a water fall. This stage is noticeable when one gets sensible & anxious whenever the thought of the other crosses one's mind, without one's control.

Stage 4 : Gharam = Irreversible Love.
- The adjective "Gharama" describes that which is perpetually inseparable. & thus, Gharam is when the heart of the Lover reaches the bottom of its fall where it can never go up again. This stage is noticeable when one feels that the other belongs only to oneself.

Stage 5 : Mawadda = Pure Love.
- Mawadda is the first of the two stable stages of Love & is achieved through two kinds of Love:
> Wudd: when the heart of the Lover is in compete serenity with the presence of the Beloved.
> Widad: reciprocally, when the heart of the Beloved is in complete serenity with the presence of the Beloved.
- In this stage: Pure Love is a shared mutual Love where each of the two lovers belong to the other, & each accepts & is in serenity with the other. This stage is noticeable when one feels that oneself & the other belong exclusively to each-other.

Stage 6 : Shaghaf = Encompassing Love.
- Shaghaf literally means the "Pericardium" (the sac surrounding the heart), in this case it refers to when the heart of the Lovers becomes enclosed by the Love for the Beloved, & its survival depends on it.. This stage is noticeable when all one's senses pale in comparison to one"s emotion of love, even excruciating pain may feel like nothing.

Stage 7 : 'Ishq' = Ecstatic/Crazy Love.
- When the heart of the Lover gets intoxicated with the Love of the Beloved & completely loses control over itself. This stage is noticeable when one is in a state of constant & irrational drunkenness, completely obsessed with & addicted to the other.

Stage 8 : Tatayyum = Adoration.
- Tatayyum comes from the root "Tayyama" which means: enslave & take away one's mind. Tatayyum is when the heart of the Lover detaches itself from its owner & seeks only the Beloved. This stage is noticeable when one completely loses one's mind and willingly becomes a slave to the other.

Stage 9 : Ta'abbud = Worship.
- In this case, Ta'abbud does literally mean "Worship". It's when the heart of the Lover belongs entirely to the Beloved to the point where it needs to seek it no more. This stage is noticeable when one literally exists solely & entirely for the other & because of the other.

Stage 10 : Khulla.
- Khulla is the second stable stage of Love, it's when the hearts of the Lover & the Beloved thoroughly penetrate each-other entirely through every single fibre of their being to the point where they become one homogenous single unity.

=> What are your thoughts?

You should've labeled this "CFZ Love according to the Islamic Tradition". Then you'd avoid the out-of-place atheist attacks.
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Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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2/23/2015 8:51:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 7:53:01 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 7:46:10 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 2/23/2015 7:43:22 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 7:35:31 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
I thought you were supposed to be explaining this in the OP.

- Well, when you say it like that. I thought it would be interesting to do the Stages instead, where lovers might relate to some of the stages ^_^ . A dry definition of Love & its conceptualisation is kinda boring, unless someone wants to discuss it.

Thus I have two main thoughts on it.
1. It is false
2. It's not even false

- Here is what I am thinking: Envisage is back to his bad habit where he has no freaking idea what he is saying. ;-)

I think it's a reference to Feynmann failing a student (though I don't know if that is a true story or if the story originates elsewhere).

- I thought it was really clever. Now I get it, Envisage just wanted to use the anecdote so bad, so he used up a whole post to make it happen. Well, at least he fooled me.

It didn't come across that way to me. It seems a reasonable evaluation of the content of the OP.

- Reasonable? Now, look what we have here, Envisage does have a talent to make sh*t look like lobster, he already convinced you?!

- If he knew what he was talking about I'd be inclined to evaluate his speech. That's not the first time he does something like that, he did before, at least with me, many times. He just makes assertions about stuff he is totally ignorant about, that's Unreasonable.

http://rationalwiki.org...
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/23/2015 9:13:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 8:40:39 PM, Envisage wrote:
... That doesn't address the point that it yields no insight. Literally. No. Insight.

- You're not saying anything.
- Envisage, either have a dialogue, or don't. This is going nowhere.

I am judging it by this verbose 10 point post you provided and the nebulous notion of love that escapes conceptual closure. Sounds like another word destined for the non-cognitive bin.

- So you don't want to discuss, you prefer to judge nothing instead!

Because that is exactly how you presented it, as a progression, or ascension. Which then becomes a factual claim subject to falsification and testability.

- By all means, start arguing for whatever position you hold, although I doubt you could, for the simple reason you don't know what you're arguing against.

Actually that was my most substantive point. Love has been studied on several levels, and like many things in psychology and physiology, the world is quite murky, and hence the notion of dividing it up into 10 neat little categories is laughable. Ignores all of psychology, which relates to recognition, association, pattern seeking, etc. Ignores physiology, including the hormones involved in sexual attraction, pleasure, jealousy, friendship, etc. These have all been studied and the world simply isn't black and white. It is you that seems content on forwarding excrement as a fine cuisine.

- Now, you're starting to say something, & at the same time you're assuming that Love has not been studied in the Islamic Tradition!!!!
- If you're willing to share a dialogue, I'll be glad to. If you keep doing this thing you do always, then there won't be a dialogue.

I am no philosopher.... I never claimed to be.

- I meant: you think philosophically.

And again, where is your evidence for your claim that love cannot be studied biologically?

- Made no such claim.

Again, you seem content on making stuff up, exactly the thing you are trying to accuse me of.

- Nope, I am here on this debate website for the sole reason to be challenged. You don't challenge me, nor do you respond to my challenge. You don't know & you don't wanna know, what do you want from me?!

I will quote in kind:
"I do not know how to refute an incredulous stare" - Sean Carroll

- Clever. Though, if you thought about it for a moment, you'll instantly realise that that's you staring, & that's me not knowing how to refute your stare.

I am quite aware of my ignorance in studies of love, but that doesn't stop me from realising that others are making baseless claims about that field that are almost certainly fill of hot air.

- You're not realising anything, can't you see what you're doing?!!! You're not willing to discuss, it's as simple as that. You want to be right before being able to be right, you want to be certain before having made any judgement, & you want to judge before having known what to judge!!!

I know that humans are simply too dumb to know how reality works by sitting in an armchair, that is why empiricism is so pragmatic and successful.

- Here you're assuming two things:
> Empiricism is the best way to go!
> Empiricism doesn't exist in the Islamic Tradition!

- Here is what I have to say: there is a subject to be discussed, you can either chose to discuss the subject, or you can chose to discuss nothing instead. & I very much prefer the first option ;)
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

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"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/23/2015 9:19:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 8:51:07 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 2/23/2015 7:53:01 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 7:46:10 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 2/23/2015 7:43:22 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 7:35:31 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
I thought you were supposed to be explaining this in the OP.

- Well, when you say it like that. I thought it would be interesting to do the Stages instead, where lovers might relate to some of the stages ^_^ . A dry definition of Love & its conceptualisation is kinda boring, unless someone wants to discuss it.

Thus I have two main thoughts on it.
1. It is false
2. It's not even false

- Here is what I am thinking: Envisage is back to his bad habit where he has no freaking idea what he is saying. ;-)

I think it's a reference to Feynmann failing a student (though I don't know if that is a true story or if the story originates elsewhere).

- I thought it was really clever. Now I get it, Envisage just wanted to use the anecdote so bad, so he used up a whole post to make it happen. Well, at least he fooled me.

It didn't come across that way to me. It seems a reasonable evaluation of the content of the OP.

- Reasonable? Now, look what we have here, Envisage does have a talent to make sh*t look like lobster, he already convinced you?!

- If he knew what he was talking about I'd be inclined to evaluate his speech. That's not the first time he does something like that, he did before, at least with me, many times. He just makes assertions about stuff he is totally ignorant about, that's Unreasonable.

http://rationalwiki.org...

- Oh, so it's a thing, good to know.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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2/23/2015 10:25:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/23/2015 7:55:40 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 7:31:42 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 2/23/2015 4:43:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 4:03:12 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:43:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 2/23/2015 3:32:40 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
wait a sec dude! they believe Islam is a barbaric religion which we muslims dont know love and stuff like that and we only obsess to kill innocents :/

Based on some of the latter stages, love to Muslims appears to include obsessive behavior, stalking, mental disorders.

- Not to muslims!!! Excessive Love does indeed have a crazy side, from stage 7 onward it's strait madness, unless the beloved is a deity & not a person.

Yeah, very creepy stuff.

I agree. That sounds like very unhealthy attachment, obsession, and madness.

- I mean, worship?!!!! You gotta be a brainless mindless nut to worship the one you're supposed to love.

Worship would be a perversion of love, the way I see it. I'm not claiming that's an objective truth by any means, of course.