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Why Jesus?

ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/24/2015 9:30:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Who are you trying to evangelize?

You are either preaching to the choir and trying to convert believers from other religions into your religion or you are wasting your time trying to convert people who do not believe in mythical characters into believing in them.

Imagine if someone tried to convert you into believing in Santa or the Tooth fairy. Do you think they would succeed when you KNOW these characters are myths?
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/24/2015 9:38:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:30:52 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Who are you trying to evangelize?

You are either preaching to the choir and trying to convert believers from other religions into your religion or you are wasting your time trying to convert people who do not believe in mythical characters into believing in them.

Imagine if someone tried to convert you into believing in Santa or the Tooth fairy. Do you think they would succeed when you KNOW these characters are myths?

We came up with Santa as a character for a metaphor, there is a difference with the sense of a deity. This is supposed to go to miracles, philosophy, etc.

My goal is to inform people of the gospel and let them choose to accept rather or not they should believe. I can only preach, but I cannot control what goes in your brain and make you believe. It would be very dishonest if I were to manipulate people like I did back then to the people who thought I was a Christian of genuine faith.
MEK
Posts: 253
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2/24/2015 9:48:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Well, although I appreciate your candor and heart felt story - you do not persuade. I will keep this terse - 1. Why do you think the bible is a good moral guide? I have to ask if you have even read the book because unless we are reading a different version - there are very few things within that are moral.

2. Why do you assume Jesus was a messiah, the son of God, etc., let alone, a real figure in history? I am sorry to tell you this but anecdotal stories like yours are a dime a dozen with regards to those sharing emotion riddled life experiences as a foundation for their faith. They are as common (and as robust) as alien abduction stories.

So if you have any evidence that can be empirically tested to support your claims about Christ and the Judeo-Christian bible - I am all ears. If you do not and tell me "I just have faith that this is true..." then you are just pretending to know something you don't - something for which I am all too familiar and with which have little patience.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/24/2015 9:51:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:38:34 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:30:52 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Who are you trying to evangelize?

You are either preaching to the choir and trying to convert believers from other religions into your religion or you are wasting your time trying to convert people who do not believe in mythical characters into believing in them.

Imagine if someone tried to convert you into believing in Santa or the Tooth fairy. Do you think they would succeed when you KNOW these characters are myths?

We came up with Santa as a character for a metaphor, there is a difference with the sense of a deity. This is supposed to go to miracles, philosophy, etc.


There is no difference with the sense of any deities since all deities are merely personifications of various aspects of nature.
http://www.theoi.com...
The Hebrew God is as much a personification of Nature as any Greek Gods.
You could says the Hebrew God has all attributes of all Greek Gods and is the sum total of all of them.

My goal is to inform people of the gospel and let them choose to accept rather or not they should believe. I can only preach, but I cannot control what goes in your brain and make you believe. It would be very dishonest if I were to manipulate people like I did back then to the people who thought I was a Christian of genuine faith.

How do you define "the gospel" ?
What exactly is it ? An acceptance of a story about a mythical character? An acceptance that the character is real?
Anyone can preach and many people preach false doctrines and don't even know they are doing it.
How do you know if your preaching a false doctrine or not?
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/24/2015 9:59:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:48:48 PM, MEK wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Well, although I appreciate your candor and heart felt story - you do not persuade. I will keep this terse - 1. Why do you think the bible is a good moral guide? I have to ask if you have even read the book because unless we are reading a different version - there are very few things within that are moral.

2. Why do you assume Jesus was a messiah, the son of God, etc., let alone, a real figure in history? I am sorry to tell you this but anecdotal stories like yours are a dime a dozen with regards to those sharing emotion riddled life experiences as a foundation for their faith. They are as common (and as robust) as alien abduction stories.

So if you have any evidence that can be empirically tested to support your claims about Christ and the Judeo-Christian bible - I am all ears. If you do not and tell me "I just have faith that this is true..." then you are just pretending to know something you don't - something for which I am all too familiar and with which have little patience.

1. The bible has the ten commandments, the golden rule, anarchism, and stories of what happens whenever wicked people are in charge. Also it shows how terrible and shameful war is and why we must no longer go into war. To me, sounds very moral.

2. I assume he is the messiah based on the writings from his apostles (some of whom claimed to follow him.) I also hear that even certain Jews believe he is or has said to be the messiah. I believe that his existence outside the bible is faith because if Pilate or the Jewish Council in the bible is true, I can easily imagine the corrupt burning of writings and documents of his existence. Fear and control. The bible even stated the Jewish council tried to make sure nobody ever spoke of Jesus.

You can't test god out since he is not in the material world or is even physical for that matter. Jesus also is dead so the only way to learn is through historical documents which we may have not even unearthed yet. It is dangerous to be Gnostic as a theist or atheist. Gnosticism is the equivalent of stubborn people.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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2/24/2015 9:59:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:51:41 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:38:34 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:30:52 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Who are you trying to evangelize?

You are either preaching to the choir and trying to convert believers from other religions into your religion or you are wasting your time trying to convert people who do not believe in mythical characters into believing in them.

Imagine if someone tried to convert you into believing in Santa or the Tooth fairy. Do you think they would succeed when you KNOW these characters are myths?

We came up with Santa as a character for a metaphor, there is a difference with the sense of a deity. This is supposed to go to miracles, philosophy, etc.


There is no difference with the sense of any deities since all deities are merely personifications of various aspects of nature.
http://www.theoi.com...
The Hebrew God is as much a personification of Nature as any Greek Gods.
You could says the Hebrew God has all attributes of all Greek Gods and is the sum total of all of them.


My goal is to inform people of the gospel and let them choose to accept rather or not they should believe. I can only preach, but I cannot control what goes in your brain and make you believe. It would be very dishonest if I were to manipulate people like I did back then to the people who thought I was a Christian of genuine faith.

How do you define "the gospel" ?
What exactly is it ? An acceptance of a story about a mythical character? An acceptance that the character is real?
Anyone can preach and many people preach false doctrines and don't even know they are doing it.
How do you know if your preaching a false doctrine or not?

Your true colors as an atheist are bleeding through. I've often wondered why in the world you bother quoting the Bible as if it actually means something.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/24/2015 10:03:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:51:41 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:38:34 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:30:52 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Who are you trying to evangelize?

You are either preaching to the choir and trying to convert believers from other religions into your religion or you are wasting your time trying to convert people who do not believe in mythical characters into believing in them.

Imagine if someone tried to convert you into believing in Santa or the Tooth fairy. Do you think they would succeed when you KNOW these characters are myths?

We came up with Santa as a character for a metaphor, there is a difference with the sense of a deity. This is supposed to go to miracles, philosophy, etc.


There is no difference with the sense of any deities since all deities are merely personifications of various aspects of nature.
http://www.theoi.com...
The Hebrew God is as much a personification of Nature as any Greek Gods.
You could says the Hebrew God has all attributes of all Greek Gods and is the sum total of all of them.


My goal is to inform people of the gospel and let them choose to accept rather or not they should believe. I can only preach, but I cannot control what goes in your brain and make you believe. It would be very dishonest if I were to manipulate people like I did back then to the people who thought I was a Christian of genuine faith.

How do you define "the gospel" ?
What exactly is it ? An acceptance of a story about a mythical character? An acceptance that the character is real?
Anyone can preach and many people preach false doctrines and don't even know they are doing it.
How do you know if your preaching a false doctrine or not?

I don't know if I am preaching the right gospel or not. I don't have the ability to know everything. I believe it because I feel liberated and am able to do more than any atheist or fundamentalist Christian could think. It's not that I believe in some fairy tale, it's because I've had these experiences and the only explanations I got came from the bible. Plus the bible was compatible with every decision I have ever made.
Sosoconfused
Posts: 237
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2/24/2015 10:22:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

I don't mean to offend, but I'm assuming you're posting this because you would like you're experience and ideals to be subject to ridicule, to be tested, and to be explored in a deeper sense. I will approach this subject with that spirit in mind.... and again I don't mean to offend.

You're story seems to confirm the usual critique of religion, that it is nothing more than a feel good philosophy you can cling to in order to overcome some perceived short coming; reaffirming that "religion is the opiate of the masses" if you will.

While I think it's great that you came to study the bible, that it inspired you to learn, etc... and that you came to admire the character of Jesus, what made you think, this story is "true". Books like "Lord of the Flies", "To Kill a Mockingbird", "A Tale of two Cities", etc... all have very admirable characters, what makes the character of Jesus special? Why is he worthy of worship? In the same line, why is Mohammed not worthy of your worship? Have you studied the Quran as intensely as the Bible? If you haven't, can you really dismiss it? The same goes for the Sanskrit and other holy texts. Can you actually be certain that the religion you choose is correct without having studied the other texts with the same openness as you studied the Bible? Can you be certain that a God, any God, actually exists? Without using scripture, are you able to rationalize a believe in Jesus? If you can't, then don't you think you're using circular reasoning; using God to justify the correctness of the Bible and the Bible to justify your belief in Jesus/God? If you aren't able to rationalize a good argument for your belief in Jesus outside of scripture, then aren't you really just as uncertain as us Atheists?

What makes morality in the Bible superior to moral philosophy? Isn't subjective morality much more useful, less restrictive, less absolute, and therefore more conducive to the ever changing moral issues facing us?
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/24/2015 10:44:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 10:22:32 PM, Sosoconfused wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

I don't mean to offend, but I'm assuming you're posting this because you would like you're experience and ideals to be subject to ridicule, to be tested, and to be explored in a deeper sense. I will approach this subject with that spirit in mind.... and again I don't mean to offend.

You're story seems to confirm the usual critique of religion, that it is nothing more than a feel good philosophy you can cling to in order to overcome some perceived short coming; reaffirming that "religion is the opiate of the masses" if you will.

While I think it's great that you came to study the bible, that it inspired you to learn, etc... and that you came to admire the character of Jesus, what made you think, this story is "true". Books like "Lord of the Flies", "To Kill a Mockingbird", "A Tale of two Cities", etc... all have very admirable characters, what makes the character of Jesus special? Why is he worthy of worship? In the same line, why is Mohammed not worthy of your worship? Have you studied the Quran as intensely as the Bible? If you haven't, can you really dismiss it? The same goes for the Sanskrit and other holy texts. Can you actually be certain that the religion you choose is correct without having studied the other texts with the same openness as you studied the Bible? Can you be certain that a God, any God, actually exists? Without using scripture, are you able to rationalize a believe in Jesus? If you can't, then don't you think you're using circular reasoning; using God to justify the correctness of the Bible and the Bible to justify your belief in Jesus/God? If you aren't able to rationalize a good argument for your belief in Jesus outside of scripture, then aren't you really just as uncertain as us Atheists?

What makes morality in the Bible superior to moral philosophy? Isn't subjective morality much more useful, less restrictive, less absolute, and therefore more conducive to the ever changing moral issues facing us?

There are 66 books in the bible that are either fiction, poems or historical documents. It's about how they are written and what their language perceives. And I can do that to tell the gospels are supposed eyewiteness accounts instead of a first person fictional narrative.

Mohammad to me is nothing but one who waged war as a perfect response, but he wanted to create a theocracy when that can easily be corrupted by man. And I asked muslims if there is room for anarchy to only be subject to Allah and not the authority of man on earth and they said no. I also haven't studied the quran intensely, but I know that there are some verses that justify the Christians. One Christian left his muslim religion because of 5:47 in the quran. I don't dismiss them, it's just that they have yet to convince me.

Nobody can be certain if their god or gods exist. I am against Gnosticism and Pressupositionalism. It's making claims so big, we'd have to be the God we claim we know exists.

Oh we can. Jefferson didn't use scripture to determine Jesus as moral. He used It as a philosophy, but he ripped out what would define Jesus as divine. So Jefferson did use reason to determine Jesus as moral. As for belief in his divinity, I don't anything besides scripture reveals it.

I don't use God to justify the bible. God is the claim, but I have to go by faith that he exists.

I am uncertain, but I don't doubt as often. I believe my experiences in life (not spiritual) have led me to the bible for consultation and I learned that God is more possible as an answer everytime.

Morality in the bible is not superior to philosophical morality since they are the same morals. Subjective morality is a danger since anybody can determine their own right and wrong based on emotions. Sure, I like the fact people can see gay marriage as moral, but beastiality marriage can harm others and is non consenting.
Sosoconfused
Posts: 237
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2/24/2015 11:59:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 10:44:33 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/24/2015 10:22:32 PM, Sosoconfused wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:

I don't mean to offend, but I'm assuming you're posting this because you would like you're experience and ideals to be subject to ridicule, to be tested, and to be explored in a deeper sense. I will approach this subject with that spirit in mind.... and again I don't mean to offend.

You're story seems to confirm the usual critique of religion, that it is nothing more than a feel good philosophy you can cling to in order to overcome some perceived short coming; reaffirming that "religion is the opiate of the masses" if you will.

While I think it's great that you came to study the bible, that it inspired you to learn, etc... and that you came to admire the character of Jesus, what made you think, this story is "true". Books like "Lord of the Flies", "To Kill a Mockingbird", "A Tale of two Cities", etc... all have very admirable characters, what makes the character of Jesus special? Why is he worthy of worship? In the same line, why is Mohammed not worthy of your worship? Have you studied the Quran as intensely as the Bible? If you haven't, can you really dismiss it? The same goes for the Sanskrit and other holy texts. Can you actually be certain that the religion you choose is correct without having studied the other texts with the same openness as you studied the Bible? Can you be certain that a God, any God, actually exists? Without using scripture, are you able to rationalize a believe in Jesus? If you can't, then don't you think you're using circular reasoning; using God to justify the correctness of the Bible and the Bible to justify your belief in Jesus/God? If you aren't able to rationalize a good argument for your belief in Jesus outside of scripture, then aren't you really just as uncertain as us Atheists?

What makes morality in the Bible superior to moral philosophy? Isn't subjective morality much more useful, less restrictive, less absolute, and therefore more conducive to the ever changing moral issues facing us?

There are 66 books in the bible that are either fiction, poems or historical documents. It's about how they are written and what their language perceives. And I can do that to tell the gospels are supposed eyewiteness accounts instead of a first person fictional narrative.

These eyewitness accounts were written, at the earliest, 40 years after the supposed death and resurrection of Jesus. Mark is believed to be the earliest Gospel written around 70 AD. Do you believe an account that's written 40 years after the fact to be factually accurate? Could the Gospels themselves be a glorification of a man that his friend's simply wanted to glorify and thus endowed him with some divine properties in the stories a posteriori?


Mohammad to me is nothing but one who waged war as a perfect response, but he wanted to create a theocracy when that can easily be corrupted by man. And I asked muslims if there is room for anarchy to only be subject to Allah and not the authority of man on earth and they said no. I also haven't studied the quran intensely, but I know that there are some verses that justify the Christians. One Christian left his muslim religion because of 5:47 in the quran. I don't dismiss them, it's just that they have yet to convince me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that you don't agree with Islam because it is incompatible with your political ideals? If that's the case, isn't that somewhat backwards? Shouldn't your religion supersede political ideology? If you can't dismiss Islam as the one true faith, then you can't really claim that Christianity has that status. If you can't claim that Christianity is unique in it's certain truth, then isn't it irresponsible to try and convince others of it's truth and value, since it may have neither?


Nobody can be certain if their god or gods exist. I am against Gnosticism and Pressupositionalism. It's making claims so big, we'd have to be the God we claim we know exists.

Same critique as above then; isn't proselytizing wrong then? Can you really claim that Christianity is true and has value to others if you can't even be certain of it yourself?


Oh we can. Jefferson didn't use scripture to determine Jesus as moral. He used It as a philosophy, but he ripped out what would define Jesus as divine. So Jefferson did use reason to determine Jesus as moral. As for belief in his divinity, I don't anything besides scripture reveals it.

I don't doubt the moral teachings of the character of Jesus. As I've said, there are many fictional characters that are very admirable, however, they are not worthy of worship. Jefferson saw this and wrote "The Moral Teachings of Jesus of Nazareth". He removed all claims of divinity and simply allowed the character to teach without any claim of divinity. This makes Jesus another great character, but not one worthy of worship. So you still have no rational justification outside of the scripture for the worship of Jesus.


I don't use God to justify the bible. God is the claim, but I have to go by faith that he exists.

I am uncertain, but I don't doubt as often. I believe my experiences in life (not spiritual) have led me to the bible for consultation and I learned that God is more possible as an answer everytime.

To what question is God the more likely answer? If God is the claim, then the Bible is the proof. If the Bible is the proof, then what substantiates it's authenticity? couldn't it be completely false? If you look at it as a work of literature it's filled with inconsistencies, historical mistakes, and lacking historical authority....So what makes it special? What makes the content of this book divine and not just another form of scripture with no more authority than the stories of Thor, Saturn, Zeus, etc...

Why don't you doubt? If you admit to uncertainty, doesn't that necessitate doubt? Isn't doubt the precursor to the creation of knowledge? Shouldn't you doubt more then? Can you really criticize people for coming to the conclusion that God is at best unlikely based on the evidence for/against him? If you can't criticize atheists for coming to their conclusion about God, then how could presume to teach/evangelize given the fact that you don't know the answers regarding the existence much less characteristics about God?


Morality in the bible is not superior to philosophical morality since they are the same morals. Subjective morality is a danger since anybody can determine their own right and wrong based on emotions. Sure, I like the fact people can see gay marriage as moral, but beastiality marriage can harm others and is non consenting.

I think there is a misunderstanding of Subjective morality here. Subjective morality doesn't have to be whimsical. Social contract theory is subjective morality, but actions are judged outside of the agent's mind. They are judged by the societal norms of the agent's culture. It allows for morality to be informed by reality without being whimsical and irrelevant. It also allows for moral constants that prevent things like bestiality etc.... Using others as an end rather than a means, the concept of consent, of privacy, etc... are all principles that can be constants in subjective morality and would prevent the slippery slope argument you are presenting.

Do you believe that morality can be objectively grounded in something other than God?
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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2/25/2015 2:40:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

It is far better to let your good deeds do the talking. Your experience isn't proof of anything apart from the fact it suits you!

My experience is totally different, and I lost my faith for which I was grateful. I don't expect others to follow my example unless it is right for them.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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2/25/2015 3:02:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:38:34 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
My goal is to inform people of the gospel and let them choose to accept rather or not they should believe. I can only preach, but I cannot control what goes in your brain and make you believe. It would be very dishonest if I were to manipulate people like I did back then to the people who thought I was a Christian of genuine faith.
Well jebus tells us what goes on in brains like yours!

The heart/mind [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: . . . (Jer. 17: 9) KJV & ESV propaganda fatal to CP & Co.

We know you are deceitful & desperately wicked, because 1 John 3:6 tells us and 1 John 3:8 then identifies the true status of those like e.g. Psycho MCB & YOU!
Bible-Prophecy
Posts: 45
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2/25/2015 3:14:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Holy Bible says,
"It is by the name of Jesus Christ...that salvation is found in no one else,
for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
(Acts 4:10-12).

I tell you, now is the time of God's favor,
now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor. 6:2).

You do not know what will happen tomorrow.
(James 4:14).

At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,933
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2/25/2015 3:40:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:30:52 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Who are you trying to evangelize?

You are either preaching to the choir and trying to convert believers from other religions into your religion or you are wasting your time trying to convert people who do not believe in mythical characters into believing in them.

Imagine if someone tried to convert you into believing in Santa or the Tooth fairy. Do you think they would succeed when you KNOW these characters are myths?

You keep on doing that which you have planned to do Christian Punk and take no notice of the ignorant girl who calls herself "Skyangel," who will try to convert you to her belief that Humans have existed from eternity and will continue to exist throughout all eternity. Never having been created, never having evolved, but simply always were with never beginning and no end.

And that poor little ignorant puppy has the audacity to call your beliefs "Myths."
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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2/25/2015 5:21:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 3:40:38 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:30:52 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Who are you trying to evangelize?

You are either preaching to the choir and trying to convert believers from other religions into your religion or you are wasting your time trying to convert people who do not believe in mythical characters into believing in them.

Imagine if someone tried to convert you into believing in Santa or the Tooth fairy. Do you think they would succeed when you KNOW these characters are myths?

You keep on doing that which you have planned to do Christian Punk and take no notice of the ignorant girl who calls herself "Skyangel," who will try to convert you to her belief that Humans have existed from eternity and will continue to exist throughout all eternity. Never having been created, never having evolved, but simply always were with never beginning and no end.

And that poor little ignorant puppy has the audacity to call your beliefs "Myths."

If you go by the known genealogy listed in the bible starting with Adam all the way to Jesus is only 4000 years old. So according to the bible humans have been around only for 6000 years. But we know that is not true. This simply means humans existed long before the bible authors pegged the beginning to 6000 years starting with Adam.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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2/25/2015 5:41:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 5:21:05 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 2/25/2015 3:40:38 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:30:52 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Who are you trying to evangelize?

You are either preaching to the choir and trying to convert believers from other religions into your religion or you are wasting your time trying to convert people who do not believe in mythical characters into believing in them.

Imagine if someone tried to convert you into believing in Santa or the Tooth fairy. Do you think they would succeed when you KNOW these characters are myths?

You keep on doing that which you have planned to do Christian Punk and take no notice of the ignorant girl who calls herself "Skyangel," who will try to convert you to her belief that Humans have existed from eternity and will continue to exist throughout all eternity. Never having been created, never having evolved, but simply always were with never beginning and no end.

And that poor little ignorant puppy has the audacity to call your beliefs "Myths."

If you go by the known genealogy listed in the bible starting with Adam all the way to Jesus is only 4000 years old. So according to the bible humans have been around only for 6000 years. But we know that is not true. This simply means humans existed long before the bible authors pegged the beginning to 6000 years starting with Adam.

Agreed.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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2/25/2015 6:25:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 3:14:32 AM, Bible-Prophecy wrote:
The Holy Bible says,
"It is by the name of Jesus Christ...that salvation is found in no one else,
for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
(Acts 4:10-12).

I tell you, now is the time of God's favor,
now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor. 6:2).

You do not know what will happen tomorrow.
(James 4:14).


At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

It appears God met an emotional and spiritual need of yours. But left you with an intellectual void which you are hoping to fill here.
To accept the bible you have to reject radiocarbon dating, evolution, historical timelines and scientific criticism. Jesus was a carpenters son. Surprisingly you won't even learn any carpentry from the bible. There isn't enough math or science in the bible to meet the requirements for a grade 6 schooler. So you might have already peaked your intellectual curiosity.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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2/25/2015 7:04:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Why do religious people think evangelizing 1) means talking about their religion and 2) that doing so works? The number of times I see someone quoting scripture or discussing some point on the divinity of Christ and thought "but this isn't going to change anyone's mind!"... I just don't get it.

There is only one way to ever convince anyone to live the way you do; living it yourself, earning their respect and showing them the value of your way of things. Scripture, belief and theology in general are all distant second to this.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/25/2015 7:29:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 2:40:19 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

It is far better to let your good deeds do the talking. Your experience isn't proof of anything apart from the fact it suits you!

My experience is totally different, and I lost my faith for which I was grateful. I don't expect others to follow my example unless it is right for them.

I'm not saying I took it to prove somebody. I am a Christian because it started producing good works. Because I saw the opposite of what Atheists claimed it to be.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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2/25/2015 8:05:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 7:29:39 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/25/2015 2:40:19 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

It is far better to let your good deeds do the talking. Your experience isn't proof of anything apart from the fact it suits you!

My experience is totally different, and I lost my faith for which I was grateful. I don't expect others to follow my example unless it is right for them.

I'm not saying I took it to prove somebody. I am a Christian because it started producing good works. Because I saw the opposite of what Atheists claimed it to be.

Well lucky you. When you get a bit older you might have a more rounded picture of the subject. Of course there are some very fine Christians who do a lot of good in this world. Then there are some really evil, abusive Christians who do a lot of harm, as well as bring the faith into disrepute!
PolyCarp
Posts: 63
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2/25/2015 8:27:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:30:52 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Who are you trying to evangelize?


The numerous atheists and agnostics on this forum. This is part of a debate website, remember. Obviously there are going to be numerous people with vastly opposing views on Christianity and religion in general.
"Perhaps the atheist cannot find God for the same reason the thief cannot find a policeman"

--G.K Chesterton
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/25/2015 9:54:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 8:05:53 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 7:29:39 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/25/2015 2:40:19 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

It is far better to let your good deeds do the talking. Your experience isn't proof of anything apart from the fact it suits you!

My experience is totally different, and I lost my faith for which I was grateful. I don't expect others to follow my example unless it is right for them.

I'm not saying I took it to prove somebody. I am a Christian because it started producing good works. Because I saw the opposite of what Atheists claimed it to be.

Well lucky you. When you get a bit older you might have a more rounded picture of the subject. Of course there are some very fine Christians who do a lot of good in this world. Then there are some really evil, abusive Christians who do a lot of harm, as well as bring the faith into disrepute!

That's why I try to say it's important to be careful when reading scripture because some people claim it to be holy, but don't treat it real carefully when it comes to interpretation and what the world says. We can't just assume the world is geocentric and young just because of simple reading.
MEK
Posts: 253
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2/25/2015 10:32:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:59:43 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:48:48 PM, MEK wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Well, although I appreciate your candor and heart felt story - you do not persuade. I will keep this terse - 1. Why do you think the bible is a good moral guide? I have to ask if you have even read the book because unless we are reading a different version - there are very few things within that are moral.

2. Why do you assume Jesus was a messiah, the son of God, etc., let alone, a real figure in history? I am sorry to tell you this but anecdotal stories like yours are a dime a dozen with regards to those sharing emotion riddled life experiences as a foundation for their faith. They are as common (and as robust) as alien abduction stories.

So if you have any evidence that can be empirically tested to support your claims about Christ and the Judeo-Christian bible - I am all ears. If you do not and tell me "I just have faith that this is true..." then you are just pretending to know something you don't - something for which I am all too familiar and with which have little patience.

1. The bible has the ten commandments, the golden rule, anarchism, and stories of what happens whenever wicked people are in charge. Also it shows how terrible and shameful war is and why we must no longer go into war. To me, sounds very moral.

2. I assume he is the messiah based on the writings from his apostles (some of whom claimed to follow him.) I also hear that even certain Jews believe he is or has said to be the messiah. I believe that his existence outside the bible is faith because if Pilate or the Jewish Council in the bible is true, I can easily imagine the corrupt burning of writings and documents of his existence. Fear and control. The bible even stated the Jewish council tried to make sure nobody ever spoke of Jesus.

You can't test god out since he is not in the material world or is even physical for that matter. Jesus also is dead so the only way to learn is through historical documents which we may have not even unearthed yet. It is dangerous to be Gnostic as a theist or atheist. Gnosticism is the equivalent of stubborn people.

Okay, Christianpunk " I will try this one more time with you but then I am done as I have had this conversation with people that share your perspective more time than I want to remember and it always ends the same " you supporting a position that is on par with hitting philosophical and reasonable bedrock with the shovel of a series of inchoate statements.
I ask only one task of you " provide me evidence (ANY AT ALL) that does not come from the bible to support any of your claims. If you cannot " just admit it and I will move on.
Bible-Prophecy
Posts: 45
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2/25/2015 11:54:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 6:25:07 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 2/25/2015 3:14:32 AM, Bible-Prophecy wrote:
The Holy Bible says,
"It is by the name of Jesus Christ...that salvation is found in no one else,
for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
(Acts 4:10-12).

I tell you, now is the time of God's favor,
now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor. 6:2).

You do not know what will happen tomorrow.
(James 4:14).


At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

It appears God met an emotional and spiritual need of yours. But left you with an intellectual void which you are hoping to fill here.
To accept the bible you have to reject radiocarbon dating, evolution, historical timelines and scientific criticism. Jesus was a carpenters son. Surprisingly you won't even learn any carpentry from the bible. There isn't enough math or science in the bible to meet the requirements for a grade 6 schooler. So you might have already peaked your intellectual curiosity.

Jesus Christ was much more than a carpenters son.
He is the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:16).
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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2/25/2015 12:05:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 11:54:06 AM, Bible-Prophecy wrote:
At 2/25/2015 6:25:07 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 2/25/2015 3:14:32 AM, Bible-Prophecy wrote:
The Holy Bible says,
"It is by the name of Jesus Christ...that salvation is found in no one else,
for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
(Acts 4:10-12).

I tell you, now is the time of God's favor,
now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor. 6:2).

You do not know what will happen tomorrow.
(James 4:14).


At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

It appears God met an emotional and spiritual need of yours. But left you with an intellectual void which you are hoping to fill here.
To accept the bible you have to reject radiocarbon dating, evolution, historical timelines and scientific criticism. Jesus was a carpenters son. Surprisingly you won't even learn any carpentry from the bible. There isn't enough math or science in the bible to meet the requirements for a grade 6 schooler. So you might have already peaked your intellectual curiosity.

Jesus Christ was much more than a carpenters son.
He is the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:16).

The Jews disagreed. They rejected Jesus's claims and found him to be a liar and lunatic. They tried, convicted and put him to death for blasphemy. 2000 years later they still reject the NT because it is the fabricated stories of a liar and lunatic they crucified. Changing the story doesn't change the facts. Explains why the crap was exported to Rome. Any wonder why Greece is falling apart.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/25/2015 12:26:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:32:35 AM, MEK wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:59:43 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:48:48 PM, MEK wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Well, although I appreciate your candor and heart felt story - you do not persuade. I will keep this terse - 1. Why do you think the bible is a good moral guide? I have to ask if you have even read the book because unless we are reading a different version - there are very few things within that are moral.

2. Why do you assume Jesus was a messiah, the son of God, etc., let alone, a real figure in history? I am sorry to tell you this but anecdotal stories like yours are a dime a dozen with regards to those sharing emotion riddled life experiences as a foundation for their faith. They are as common (and as robust) as alien abduction stories.

So if you have any evidence that can be empirically tested to support your claims about Christ and the Judeo-Christian bible - I am all ears. If you do not and tell me "I just have faith that this is true..." then you are just pretending to know something you don't - something for which I am all too familiar and with which have little patience.

1. The bible has the ten commandments, the golden rule, anarchism, and stories of what happens whenever wicked people are in charge. Also it shows how terrible and shameful war is and why we must no longer go into war. To me, sounds very moral.

2. I assume he is the messiah based on the writings from his apostles (some of whom claimed to follow him.) I also hear that even certain Jews believe he is or has said to be the messiah. I believe that his existence outside the bible is faith because if Pilate or the Jewish Council in the bible is true, I can easily imagine the corrupt burning of writings and documents of his existence. Fear and control. The bible even stated the Jewish council tried to make sure nobody ever spoke of Jesus.

You can't test god out since he is not in the material world or is even physical for that matter. Jesus also is dead so the only way to learn is through historical documents which we may have not even unearthed yet. It is dangerous to be Gnostic as a theist or atheist. Gnosticism is the equivalent of stubborn people.

Okay, Christianpunk " I will try this one more time with you but then I am done as I have had this conversation with people that share your perspective more time than I want to remember and it always ends the same " you supporting a position that is on par with hitting philosophical and reasonable bedrock with the shovel of a series of inchoate statements.
I ask only one task of you " provide me evidence (ANY AT ALL) that does not come from the bible to support any of your claims. If you cannot " just admit it and I will move on.

Which specific claims are you referring to? God's existence? Jesus? The apostles? The events from the bible that are written in other documents? Which?
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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2/25/2015 12:37:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 10:03:50 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:51:41 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:38:34 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:30:52 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Who are you trying to evangelize?

You are either preaching to the choir and trying to convert believers from other religions into your religion or you are wasting your time trying to convert people who do not believe in mythical characters into believing in them.

Imagine if someone tried to convert you into believing in Santa or the Tooth fairy. Do you think they would succeed when you KNOW these characters are myths?

We came up with Santa as a character for a metaphor, there is a difference with the sense of a deity. This is supposed to go to miracles, philosophy, etc.


There is no difference with the sense of any deities since all deities are merely personifications of various aspects of nature.
http://www.theoi.com...
The Hebrew God is as much a personification of Nature as any Greek Gods.
You could says the Hebrew God has all attributes of all Greek Gods and is the sum total of all of them.


My goal is to inform people of the gospel and let them choose to accept rather or not they should believe. I can only preach, but I cannot control what goes in your brain and make you believe. It would be very dishonest if I were to manipulate people like I did back then to the people who thought I was a Christian of genuine faith.

How do you define "the gospel" ?
What exactly is it ? An acceptance of a story about a mythical character? An acceptance that the character is real?
Anyone can preach and many people preach false doctrines and don't even know they are doing it.
How do you know if your preaching a false doctrine or not?

I don't know if I am preaching the right gospel or not. I don't have the ability to know everything. I believe it because I feel liberated and am able to do more than any atheist or fundamentalist Christian could think. It's not that I believe in some fairy tale, it's because I've had these experiences and the only explanations I got came from the bible. Plus the bible was compatible with every decision I have ever made.

Sorry, but what is it that is of value that you can do that atheists can't do that can only be explained by your particular religious beliefs?
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/25/2015 12:47:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 12:37:49 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 2/24/2015 10:03:50 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:51:41 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:38:34 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:30:52 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Who are you trying to evangelize?

You are either preaching to the choir and trying to convert believers from other religions into your religion or you are wasting your time trying to convert people who do not believe in mythical characters into believing in them.

Imagine if someone tried to convert you into believing in Santa or the Tooth fairy. Do you think they would succeed when you KNOW these characters are myths?

We came up with Santa as a character for a metaphor, there is a difference with the sense of a deity. This is supposed to go to miracles, philosophy, etc.


There is no difference with the sense of any deities since all deities are merely personifications of various aspects of nature.
http://www.theoi.com...
The Hebrew God is as much a personification of Nature as any Greek Gods.
You could says the Hebrew God has all attributes of all Greek Gods and is the sum total of all of them.


My goal is to inform people of the gospel and let them choose to accept rather or not they should believe. I can only preach, but I cannot control what goes in your brain and make you believe. It would be very dishonest if I were to manipulate people like I did back then to the people who thought I was a Christian of genuine faith.

How do you define "the gospel" ?
What exactly is it ? An acceptance of a story about a mythical character? An acceptance that the character is real?
Anyone can preach and many people preach false doctrines and don't even know they are doing it.
How do you know if your preaching a false doctrine or not?

I don't know if I am preaching the right gospel or not. I don't have the ability to know everything. I believe it because I feel liberated and am able to do more than any atheist or fundamentalist Christian could think. It's not that I believe in some fairy tale, it's because I've had these experiences and the only explanations I got came from the bible. Plus the bible was compatible with every decision I have ever made.

Sorry, but what is it that is of value that you can do that atheists can't do that can only be explained by your particular religious beliefs?

Salvation
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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2/25/2015 12:53:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 12:47:01 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/25/2015 12:37:49 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 2/24/2015 10:03:50 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:51:41 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:38:34 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:30:52 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:20:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I haven't done my duty properly to evangelize as I'd like to, so I am going to start making some posts where questions can be asked and I hope to get the gospel out in the process.

If somebody wonders why a person believes in Jesus, then i'll state my story since I can't speak for others. I was going through a tough time as a perfectionist that thought "If you have any kind of flaw or mistake in your life, then you are disposable." I was not an atheist though even though I didn't honestly believe in a God. I claimed to believe, but only used it to gain advantages through the power of the "American Jesus." So I found Christ when I was a senior in High School due to the idea that somebody like Jesus would put his life on the line for others who aren't perfect. So I found this interesting. It was there that I picked up my old dusty inherited 1975 bible and actually started learning to read for the first time. It gave me a good understanding of morality, respect for others and salvation's true purpose. I am still growing spiritually, but it also allowed me to grow intellectually by learning the experience of what it is like to discuss with believers and non believers as well as even learn a little of the natural sciences. So that is why Jesus for me. Any more questions, I will be glad to answer.

Who are you trying to evangelize?

You are either preaching to the choir and trying to convert believers from other religions into your religion or you are wasting your time trying to convert people who do not believe in mythical characters into believing in them.

Imagine if someone tried to convert you into believing in Santa or the Tooth fairy. Do you think they would succeed when you KNOW these characters are myths?

We came up with Santa as a character for a metaphor, there is a difference with the sense of a deity. This is supposed to go to miracles, philosophy, etc.


There is no difference with the sense of any deities since all deities are merely personifications of various aspects of nature.
http://www.theoi.com...
The Hebrew God is as much a personification of Nature as any Greek Gods.
You could says the Hebrew God has all attributes of all Greek Gods and is the sum total of all of them.


My goal is to inform people of the gospel and let them choose to accept rather or not they should believe. I can only preach, but I cannot control what goes in your brain and make you believe. It would be very dishonest if I were to manipulate people like I did back then to the people who thought I was a Christian of genuine faith.

How do you define "the gospel" ?
What exactly is it ? An acceptance of a story about a mythical character? An acceptance that the character is real?
Anyone can preach and many people preach false doctrines and don't even know they are doing it.
How do you know if your preaching a false doctrine or not?

I don't know if I am preaching the right gospel or not. I don't have the ability to know everything. I believe it because I feel liberated and am able to do more than any atheist or fundamentalist Christian could think. It's not that I believe in some fairy tale, it's because I've had these experiences and the only explanations I got came from the bible. Plus the bible was compatible with every decision I have ever made.

Sorry, but what is it that is of value that you can do that atheists can't do that can only be explained by your particular religious beliefs?

Salvation

You can do salvation? What does that even mean?