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drpiek
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2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist. I do this for multiple reasons; first debating the other side of an argument is always good practice and gives insight into the other aspects of the debate. Second, well, I feel most (but not all) atheist here do a poor job of defending their position, so I will attempt to do a better job, without reducing the argument to name calling as often happens.

So my stance is this:
1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.
2.The assumption god exists is unfounded

Ask away (a)theists
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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2/24/2015 9:46:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist. I do this for multiple reasons; first debating the other side of an argument is always good practice and gives insight into the other aspects of the debate. Second, well, I feel most (but not all) atheist here do a poor job of defending their position, so I will attempt to do a better job, without reducing the argument to name calling as often happens.

So my stance is this:
1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.
2.The assumption god exists is unfounded


Ask away (a)theists

Knowing what we now know of quantum physics, how is it possible that certain quantum particles somehow bound together to form living objects while others didn't, even though they are all the same on an elementary scale? What keeps the quantum particles which make-up you from mixing with those of the planet you stand on? Why does all matter seek to return to a singular state through the universal pull of gravity, just as the religious claim that all souls seek to return to a singular Creator? Is three (ooops, now it's four) questions cheating? :P
SNP1
Posts: 2,407
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2/24/2015 10:06:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
A-Theory of Time or B-Theory of Time?
Is the universe necessary or contingent?
Idealism, dualism, or physicalism (why?)?
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/24/2015 10:14:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist. I do this for multiple reasons; first debating the other side of an argument is always good practice and gives insight into the other aspects of the debate. Second, well, I feel most (but not all) atheist here do a poor job of defending their position, so I will attempt to do a better job, without reducing the argument to name calling as often happens.

So my stance is this:
1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.

What do you think people fear and desire the most?
How do you think religions play on those fears and desires?
What evidence do you have that religions actually play on peoples fears and desires?

2.The assumption god exists is unfounded

What makes you believe it is an unfounded assumption?
Why would anyone assume something if they had nothing on which to base their assumption?
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,137
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2/24/2015 11:13:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist. I do this for multiple reasons; first debating the other side of an argument is always good practice and gives insight into the other aspects of the debate. Second, well, I feel most (but not all) atheist here do a poor job of defending their position, so I will attempt to do a better job, without reducing the argument to name calling as often happens.

So my stance is this:
1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.
2.The assumption god exists is unfounded


Ask away (a)theists

First off, define atheism, and as a temporary theist I feel compelled by the spirit of the Lord to ask you: how do you explain away the argument from desire?

1. Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.

2. But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.

3. Therefore, there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.

4. This something is what people call "God" and "life with God forever."

I may have more questions for you tomorrow. I look forward to your response.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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2/24/2015 11:33:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist.

Great idea, Dr P! :) In turn, I'll ask some theistic questions that I think ought to be asked better, but seldom are.

1. Do you believe in an objective morality? If so, how do you find and recognise it? If not, what will keep people from finding any excuse to exploit, harm and turn on one another, and is that acceptable to you?

2. I hope you'll agree that people are frequently vain, selfish, corrupt and deluded. How can you be sure that any code or moral principles you live by aren't the same?

3. Even if your principles are worthy, how can you ask others to share them when you cannot invoke moral authority?

4. If you cannot with any authority ask others to share your morals, what will keep society from gradually sliding into corruption and anarchy?

5. What keeps you from a life of decadence, cruelty, self-indulgence and turpitude? Why should you care whether you are a good or a bad person?

6. When you feel weak and incapable of being your best self, what do you draw on?

7. I hope you'll agree that an atheist is essentially born alone, and dies hopeless and alone. You may die weak and sick, without friends or family, and with your proudest moments forgotten and become dust. What will keep you from misery in age and infirmity, and despair as you face death, and what will keep you from regretting a life in which you have believed in nothing but yourself and your senses?

8. Religious life is rich and fulfilling, and I hope you'll agree that it has helped nourish civilisation. Even if you dissent with religious beliefs, you need not participate. Many religious people are kind and seek only to live their lives in peace. Why are so many atheists rude, aggressive, confrontational and intrusive upon the peaceful worship of the faithful?

Good luck with these questions Dr P. I look forward to reading your answers. :)
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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2/24/2015 11:34:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist. I do this for multiple reasons; first debating the other side of an argument is always good practice and gives insight into the other aspects of the debate. Second, well, I feel most (but not all) atheist here do a poor job of defending their position, so I will attempt to do a better job, without reducing the argument to name calling as often happens.

So my stance is this:
1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.
2.The assumption god exists is unfounded


Ask away (a)theists

All religions came from our Creator through His program called the beast. He used them for the purpose to teach His people how to build false gods ( things built with human hands ).

God has been spoken by men since man was given a make-believe world to experience.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,237
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2/25/2015 12:53:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist. I do this for multiple reasons; first debating the other side of an argument is always good practice and gives insight into the other aspects of the debate. Second, well, I feel most (but not all) atheist here do a poor job of defending their position, so I will attempt to do a better job, without reducing the argument to name calling as often happens.

So my stance is this:
1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.
2.The assumption god exists is unfounded


Ask away (a)theists

How do you argue against the Kalam Cosmo Argument?
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,137
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2/25/2015 8:48:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Worst. atheist. ever. Lol!
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
drpiek
Posts: 589
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2/25/2015 8:58:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 9:46:58 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist. I do this for multiple reasons; first debating the other side of an argument is always good practice and gives insight into the other aspects of the debate. Second, well, I feel most (but not all) atheist here do a poor job of defending their position, so I will attempt to do a better job, without reducing the argument to name calling as often happens.

So my stance is this:
1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.
2.The assumption god exists is unfounded


Ask away (a)theists

Knowing what we now know of quantum physics, how is it possible that certain quantum particles somehow bound together to form living objects while others didn't, even though they are all the same on an elementary scale? What keeps the quantum particles which make-up you from mixing with those of the planet you stand on? Why does all matter seek to return to a singular state through the universal pull of gravity, just as the religious claim that all souls seek to return to a singular Creator? Is three (ooops, now it's four) questions cheating? :P

First, I do not think we (the human population) know enough about QM to accurately answer your question with more than educated guesses. Since I am not a quantum physicist I am at an even greater challenge to give a meaningful answer. That said, I do not think your statement that matter seeks to return to a singular state because of gravity is true. We know that there is some energy in the universe that we have labeled dark energy that counteracts gravity and causes the universe to expand. There is a possibility that the universe will continue to expand and never return to it"s original state. Even if the "Big Crunch" theory is true, I would then speculate that the bang, crunch is nothing more than a natural cycle.
drpiek
Posts: 589
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2/25/2015 9:19:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 10:06:57 PM, SNP1 wrote:
A-Theory of Time or B-Theory of Time?
Is the universe necessary or contingent?
Idealism, dualism, or physicalism (why?)?

A-Theory of Time or B-Theory of Time?
I believe we experience life in A-Theory, and can logically look at life in B-Theory and B theory tends to be better for analyzing events. I do not feel they are mutually exclusive just two complimentary ways at looking at the same thing.

Is the universe necessary or contingent?
The universe may be contingent but existence is necessary, to suggest it is contingent does not solve any problem, it just assumes some other necessity. People who believe in a contingent existence suggest God is the cause. When asked, what caused God, they simply answer God has always been. If God can always have existed so can the energy of existence without the need for a God. I use the term existence because I am unsure if there is 1 universe, or many. If there are many, it is possible one may be contingent on another but the whole is necessary.

Idealism, dualism, or physicalism (why?)?
Dualism even though I do not like the term itself. Dualism proposes what I experience in life. That there are both minds and mindless entities that are governed by probabilities (chance).
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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2/25/2015 9:21:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 8:58:17 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:46:58 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist. I do this for multiple reasons; first debating the other side of an argument is always good practice and gives insight into the other aspects of the debate. Second, well, I feel most (but not all) atheist here do a poor job of defending their position, so I will attempt to do a better job, without reducing the argument to name calling as often happens.

So my stance is this:
1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.
2.The assumption god exists is unfounded


Ask away (a)theists

Knowing what we now know of quantum physics, how is it possible that certain quantum particles somehow bound together to form living objects while others didn't, even though they are all the same on an elementary scale? What keeps the quantum particles which make-up you from mixing with those of the planet you stand on? Why does all matter seek to return to a singular state through the universal pull of gravity, just as the religious claim that all souls seek to return to a singular Creator? Is three (ooops, now it's four) questions cheating? :P

First, I do not think we (the human population) know enough about QM to accurately answer your question with more than educated guesses. Since I am not a quantum physicist I am at an even greater challenge to give a meaningful answer. That said, I do not think your statement that matter seeks to return to a singular state because of gravity is true. We know that there is some energy in the universe that we have labeled dark energy that counteracts gravity and causes the universe to expand. There is a possibility that the universe will continue to expand and never return to it"s original state. Even if the "Big Crunch" theory is true, I would then speculate that the bang, crunch is nothing more than a natural cycle.

The universe is a total illusion that isn't real at all. God's creation consists of invisible vibrations ( string theory ) that does not require space, time or matter to exist.
drpiek
Posts: 589
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2/25/2015 9:35:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 10:14:16 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist. I do this for multiple reasons; first debating the other side of an argument is always good practice and gives insight into the other aspects of the debate. Second, well, I feel most (but not all) atheist here do a poor job of defending their position, so I will attempt to do a better job, without reducing the argument to name calling as often happens.

So my stance is this:
1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.

What do you think people fear and desire the most?
How do you think religions play on those fears and desires?
What evidence do you have that religions actually play on peoples fears and desires?


2.The assumption god exists is unfounded

What makes you believe it is an unfounded assumption?
Why would anyone assume something if they had nothing on which to base their assumption?

1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.

What do you think people fear and desire the most?
That is a broad question, but I think it comes down to survival/death, Comfort/Pain. In essence every normal person acts in ways that improve their survivability and/or comfort, and acts in ways that reduces the likelihood of death and/or Pain. There are psychological states that confuse these things causing people to have problems in society but this is a general view.

How do you think religions play on those fears and desires?
By blurring the lines. Convincing people this life is less important than the next, that pleasure is sinful, and that they need to take some action to please a deity instead of following their own desires. Often these action only serve to improve the religious organizations position.

What evidence do you have that religions actually play on peoples fears and desires?
The number of people that fear a mythical place called Hell. The people of islam who have chosen to kill and die for jihad. Gay people who have commited suicide because they were taught that they were abominations against god. Shall I go on?

2.The assumption god exists is unfounded

What makes you believe it is an unfounded assumption?
The term unfounded means "no basis in fact". Most theists will tell you belief in God is a matter of faith. This by definition is not based in fact.

Why would anyone assume something if they had nothing on which to base their assumption?
Because God is the easy answer for everything. It stops people from the need to think critically about themselves, their choices, society, ect. It allows a person to remove all responsibility from them and place it on god. In the case of Christians it also allows for unpunished sinful acts as long as the sinner accepts jesus Christ as their lord and savior. Or you could just call it peace of mind.
drpiek
Posts: 589
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2/25/2015 9:49:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 11:13:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist. I do this for multiple reasons; first debating the other side of an argument is always good practice and gives insight into the other aspects of the debate. Second, well, I feel most (but not all) atheist here do a poor job of defending their position, so I will attempt to do a better job, without reducing the argument to name calling as often happens.

So my stance is this:
1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.
2.The assumption god exists is unfounded


Ask away (a)theists

First off, define atheism, and as a temporary theist I feel compelled by the spirit of the Lord to ask you: how do you explain away the argument from desire?

1. Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.

2. But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.

3. Therefore, there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.

4. This something is what people call "God" and "life with God forever."

I may have more questions for you tomorrow. I look forward to your response.

First off, define atheism,
Some people on this site try to use a mixed definition of atheism like "agnostic atheist" to me they simply seem noncommittal and should just call themselves agnostic. I am an atheist. A theist believes in god, an atheist has no belief in god. To challenge an atheist by saying they cannot prove god does not exist is just as absurd as challenging by saying they cannot prove a purple fairy that farts laser beams does not exist.
How do you explain away the argument from desire?

1. Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.
This is not true; many people have desires for entirely fictional things. I may desire a woman who is not my wife but is a fantasy. I may desire to have sex with a cartoon character. The human mind has the ability to desire fake things.

2. But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.
Again I disagree, I often have desires for things that I cannot figure out, usually any activity that is fully engaging will fulfill that desire.

3. Therefore, there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.
Yes it is called Fantasy, this is why we can get lost in books, religions, video games, drugs. Our mind has the ability to experience fake things as realities.

4. This something is what people call "God" and "life with God forever."
See answer to number 3
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,137
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2/25/2015 10:17:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 9:49:43 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 2/24/2015 11:13:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist. I do this for multiple reasons; first debating the other side of an argument is always good practice and gives insight into the other aspects of the debate. Second, well, I feel most (but not all) atheist here do a poor job of defending their position, so I will attempt to do a better job, without reducing the argument to name calling as often happens.

So my stance is this:
1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.
2.The assumption god exists is unfounded


Ask away (a)theists

First off, define atheism, and as a temporary theist I feel compelled by the spirit of the Lord to ask you: how do you explain away the argument from desire?

1. Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.

2. But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.

3. Therefore, there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.

4. This something is what people call "God" and "life with God forever."

I may have more questions for you tomorrow. I look forward to your response.


First off, define atheism,
Some people on this site try to use a mixed definition of atheism like "agnostic atheist" to me they simply seem noncommittal and should just call themselves agnostic. I am an atheist. A theist believes in god, an atheist has no belief in god. To challenge an atheist by saying they cannot prove god does not exist is just as absurd as challenging by saying they cannot prove a purple fairy that farts laser beams does not exist.

You're one of the few theists who define atheism properly, although you could use some work on the agnostic atheist part.

How do you explain away the argument from desire?

1. Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.
This is not true; many people have desires for entirely fictional things. I may desire a woman who is not my wife but is a fantasy. I may desire to have sex with a cartoon character. The human mind has the ability to desire fake things.

I said 'natural' desire. Obviously, sex with a cartoon character would not be natural. A desire for sex, on the other hand, is natural, and there is sex.


2. But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.
Again I disagree, I often have desires for things that I cannot figure out, usually any activity that is fully engaging will fulfill that desire.

Usually, eh? What about the times 'usually' does not cover? Plus, it is very common for those who do not believe in god to honestly ask for evidence of god. I attribute it to the natural desire this argument is built around.

3. Therefore, there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.
Yes it is called Fantasy, this is why we can get lost in books, religions, video games, drugs. Our mind has the ability to experience fake things as realities.

Except we're not talking about something artificial to alter our perception or occupy our time. These things merely distract us from a natural desire for something beyond what nature can provide and speaks of something other-worldly, more specifically, this would be God.

4. This something is what people call "God" and "life with God forever."
See answer to number 3
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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2/25/2015 10:23:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 8:58:17 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:46:58 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist. I do this for multiple reasons; first debating the other side of an argument is always good practice and gives insight into the other aspects of the debate. Second, well, I feel most (but not all) atheist here do a poor job of defending their position, so I will attempt to do a better job, without reducing the argument to name calling as often happens.

So my stance is this:
1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.
2.The assumption god exists is unfounded


Ask away (a)theists

Knowing what we now know of quantum physics, how is it possible that certain quantum particles somehow bound together to form living objects while others didn't, even though they are all the same on an elementary scale? What keeps the quantum particles which make-up you from mixing with those of the planet you stand on? Why does all matter seek to return to a singular state through the universal pull of gravity, just as the religious claim that all souls seek to return to a singular Creator? Is three (ooops, now it's four) questions cheating? :P

First, I do not think we (the human population) know enough about QM to accurately answer your question with more than educated guesses. Since I am not a quantum physicist I am at an even greater challenge to give a meaningful answer. That said, I do not think your statement that matter seeks to return to a singular state because of gravity is true. We know that there is some energy in the universe that we have labeled dark energy that counteracts gravity and causes the universe to expand. There is a possibility that the universe will continue to expand and never return to it"s original state. Even if the "Big Crunch" theory is true, I would then speculate that the bang, crunch is nothing more than a natural cycle.

We know that black holes are singularities which swallow all matter which comes withing distance, but I won't argue the point. What I was getting at is that there is no reason to try to answer questions from the perspective of an atheist or a theist. The truth is the truth, and that's for each of us to decide for ourselves.
drpiek
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2/25/2015 10:27:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 11:33:09 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist.

Great idea, Dr P! :) In turn, I'll ask some theistic questions that I think ought to be asked better, but seldom are.

1. Do you believe in an objective morality? If so, how do you find and recognise it? If not, what will keep people from finding any excuse to exploit, harm and turn on one another, and is that acceptable to you?

2. I hope you'll agree that people are frequently vain, selfish, corrupt and deluded. How can you be sure that any code or moral principles you live by aren't the same?

3. Even if your principles are worthy, how can you ask others to share them when you cannot invoke moral authority?

4. If you cannot with any authority ask others to share your morals, what will keep society from gradually sliding into corruption and anarchy?

5. What keeps you from a life of decadence, cruelty, self-indulgence and turpitude? Why should you care whether you are a good or a bad person?

6. When you feel weak and incapable of being your best self, what do you draw on?

7. I hope you'll agree that an atheist is essentially born alone, and dies hopeless and alone. You may die weak and sick, without friends or family, and with your proudest moments forgotten and become dust. What will keep you from misery in age and infirmity, and despair as you face death, and what will keep you from regretting a life in which you have believed in nothing but yourself and your senses?

8. Religious life is rich and fulfilling, and I hope you'll agree that it has helped nourish civilisation. Even if you dissent with religious beliefs, you need not participate. Many religious people are kind and seek only to live their lives in peace. Why are so many atheists rude, aggressive, confrontational and intrusive upon the peaceful worship of the faithful?

Good luck with these questions Dr P. I look forward to reading your answers. :)

1. Do you believe in an objective morality? If so, how do you find and recognise it? If not, what will keep people from finding any excuse to exploit, harm and turn on one another, and is that acceptable to you?
I believe morality is subjective and changes with the time as history shows us. In the past we have witnessed cannibalism, human sacrifice, slavery, and many other atrocities that we would not put up with today. Yet they were accepted in the past. Even the bible accepts slavery, murder, and incest as moral at times.
That said, I believe morals have evolved and advanced over time and that at any given point in time the morals of the day had objective value. For instance cannibalism was often resorted to when food was in low supply, an objective value. In the past pre-marital sex was seen much worse than it is today because of the numerous consequences for a young woman and her family before contraceptives became available.

2. I hope you'll agree that people are frequently vain, selfish, corrupt and deluded. How can you be sure that any code or moral principles you live by aren't the same?
Most people by nature are selfish because that is a good trait for survival. The rest are not traits I see as often as selfishness. I too am selfish at times. So I live by subjective morals that guide me to an objective outcome that hopefully favors my legacy and gene pool.

3. Even if your principles are worthy, how can you ask others to share them when you cannot invoke moral authority?
I simply lead by example. People who do not see their life as being as "good" as yours will ask advice. I guide them towards my view.

4. If you cannot with any authority ask others to share your morals, what will keep society from gradually sliding into corruption and anarchy?
The human trait of compassion caused by the mirror neurons that allow us to experience the world as if we were someone else. Empathy, ect"

5. What keeps you from a life of decadence, cruelty, self-indulgence and turpitude? Why should you care whether you are a good or a bad person?
The fruits of cruelty and turpitude have never really turned me on, so the fact that I am not into them keep me away. As for decadence and self-indulgence, I have experienced those vices many times. The thing that keeps me away from that now is experience in where they tend to lead.

6. When you feel weak and incapable of being your best self, what do you draw on?
My past successes and my future dreams

7. I hope you'll agree that an atheist is essentially born alone, and dies hopeless and alone. You may die weak and sick, without friends or family, and with your proudest moments forgotten and become dust. What will keep you from misery in age and infirmity, and despair as you face death, and what will keep you from regretting a life in which you have believed in nothing but yourself and your senses?
What you describe is the life of a miserable person, not the life of an atheist that loves life and the people around him. While death may be a personal journey into the unknown, life is a social event.

8. Religious life is rich and fulfilling, and I hope you'll agree that it has helped nourish civilisation. Even if you dissent with religious beliefs, you need not participate. Many religious people are kind and seek only to live their lives in peace. Why are so many atheists rude, aggressive, confrontational and intrusive upon the peaceful worship of the faithful?

For the theists that want lives of peace and do not try to impose their will on others, I have no issue and neither do most atheist. It is the religious zealot, spewing fear, hatred and death. Islamic extremists, Pedophile Priests hidden by the vatican, Salem Witch Trials, The Crusades. And the politically active religious who try to impose their will in government that piss off the atheists.
drpiek
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2/25/2015 10:29:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 8:48:07 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Worst. atheist. ever. Lol!

i have been busy, I answered your questions and I enjoyed it.
drpiek
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2/25/2015 10:34:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 12:53:22 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist. I do this for multiple reasons; first debating the other side of an argument is always good practice and gives insight into the other aspects of the debate. Second, well, I feel most (but not all) atheist here do a poor job of defending their position, so I will attempt to do a better job, without reducing the argument to name calling as often happens.

So my stance is this:
1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.
2.The assumption god exists is unfounded


Ask away (a)theists

How do you argue against the Kalam Cosmo Argument?

The same way I answered the question "Is the universe necessary or contingent?"
The universe may be contingent but existence is necessary, to suggest it is contingent does not solve any problem, it just assumes some other necessity. People who believe in a contingent existence suggest God is the cause. When asked, what caused God, they simply answer God has always been. If God can always have existed so can the energy of existence without the need for a God. I use the term existence because I am unsure if there is 1 universe, or many. If there are many, it is possible one may be contingent on another but the whole is necessary.
RuvDraba
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2/25/2015 10:40:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:27:18 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the theists that want lives of peace and do not try to impose their will on others, I have no issue and neither do most atheist. It is the religious zealot, spewing fear, hatred and death. Islamic extremists, Pedophile Priests hidden by the vatican, Salem Witch Trials, The Crusades. And the politically active religious who try to impose their will in government that piss off the atheists.

Thanks, Dr P. I'm not sure if you were aiming for it, but I thought you managed to present an inspid, dispassionate, self-absorbed atheist very well.

That's not the only kind, but inasmuch as anyone can be an atheist for any reason, I thought it was credible. :)
drpiek
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2/25/2015 10:42:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:17:32 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/25/2015 9:49:43 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 2/24/2015 11:13:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist. I do this for multiple reasons; first debating the other side of an argument is always good practice and gives insight into the other aspects of the debate. Second, well, I feel most (but not all) atheist here do a poor job of defending their position, so I will attempt to do a better job, without reducing the argument to name calling as often happens.

So my stance is this:
1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.
2.The assumption god exists is unfounded


Ask away (a)theists

First off, define atheism, and as a temporary theist I feel compelled by the spirit of the Lord to ask you: how do you explain away the argument from desire?

1. Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.

2. But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.

3. Therefore, there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.

4. This something is what people call "God" and "life with God forever."

I may have more questions for you tomorrow. I look forward to your response.


First off, define atheism,
Some people on this site try to use a mixed definition of atheism like "agnostic atheist" to me they simply seem noncommittal and should just call themselves agnostic. I am an atheist. A theist believes in god, an atheist has no belief in god. To challenge an atheist by saying they cannot prove god does not exist is just as absurd as challenging by saying they cannot prove a purple fairy that farts laser beams does not exist.

You're one of the few theists who define atheism properly, although you could use some work on the agnostic atheist part.

How do you explain away the argument from desire?

1. Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.
This is not true; many people have desires for entirely fictional things. I may desire a woman who is not my wife but is a fantasy. I may desire to have sex with a cartoon character. The human mind has the ability to desire fake things.

I said 'natural' desire. Obviously, sex with a cartoon character would not be natural. A desire for sex, on the other hand, is natural, and there is sex.


2. But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.
Again I disagree, I often have desires for things that I cannot figure out, usually any activity that is fully engaging will fulfill that desire.

Usually, eh? What about the times 'usually' does not cover? Plus, it is very common for those who do not believe in god to honestly ask for evidence of god. I attribute it to the natural desire this argument is built around.

3. Therefore, there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.
Yes it is called Fantasy, this is why we can get lost in books, religions, video games, drugs. Our mind has the ability to experience fake things as realities.

Except we're not talking about something artificial to alter our perception or occupy our time. These things merely distract us from a natural desire for something beyond what nature can provide and speaks of something other-worldly, more specifically, this would be God.

4. This something is what people call "God" and "life with God forever."
See answer to number 3

I have never experienced a desire for anything unnatural or outside of our realm of experiences and I see your desire for god as just as unnatural as you see the desire for sex with a cartoon character.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,137
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2/25/2015 10:42:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:29:53 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 2/25/2015 8:48:07 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Worst. atheist. ever. Lol!

i have been busy, I answered your questions and I enjoyed it.

Yes, I appreciate that. I withdraw my dig. ;-)
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
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2/25/2015 10:43:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:42:07 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:17:32 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/25/2015 9:49:43 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 2/24/2015 11:13:31 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/24/2015 9:39:47 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the span of this post I will take the stance of an atheist. I do this for multiple reasons; first debating the other side of an argument is always good practice and gives insight into the other aspects of the debate. Second, well, I feel most (but not all) atheist here do a poor job of defending their position, so I will attempt to do a better job, without reducing the argument to name calling as often happens.

So my stance is this:
1.All religions are man made stories used to control people by playing on their fears and desires.
2.The assumption god exists is unfounded


Ask away (a)theists

First off, define atheism, and as a temporary theist I feel compelled by the spirit of the Lord to ask you: how do you explain away the argument from desire?

1. Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.

2. But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.

3. Therefore, there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.

4. This something is what people call "God" and "life with God forever."

I may have more questions for you tomorrow. I look forward to your response.


First off, define atheism,
Some people on this site try to use a mixed definition of atheism like "agnostic atheist" to me they simply seem noncommittal and should just call themselves agnostic. I am an atheist. A theist believes in god, an atheist has no belief in god. To challenge an atheist by saying they cannot prove god does not exist is just as absurd as challenging by saying they cannot prove a purple fairy that farts laser beams does not exist.

You're one of the few theists who define atheism properly, although you could use some work on the agnostic atheist part.

How do you explain away the argument from desire?

1. Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.
This is not true; many people have desires for entirely fictional things. I may desire a woman who is not my wife but is a fantasy. I may desire to have sex with a cartoon character. The human mind has the ability to desire fake things.

I said 'natural' desire. Obviously, sex with a cartoon character would not be natural. A desire for sex, on the other hand, is natural, and there is sex.


2. But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.
Again I disagree, I often have desires for things that I cannot figure out, usually any activity that is fully engaging will fulfill that desire.

Usually, eh? What about the times 'usually' does not cover? Plus, it is very common for those who do not believe in god to honestly ask for evidence of god. I attribute it to the natural desire this argument is built around.

3. Therefore, there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.
Yes it is called Fantasy, this is why we can get lost in books, religions, video games, drugs. Our mind has the ability to experience fake things as realities.

Except we're not talking about something artificial to alter our perception or occupy our time. These things merely distract us from a natural desire for something beyond what nature can provide and speaks of something other-worldly, more specifically, this would be God.

4. This something is what people call "God" and "life with God forever."
See answer to number 3

I have never experienced a desire for anything unnatural or outside of our realm of experiences and I see your desire for god as just as unnatural as you see the desire for sex with a cartoon character.

Yea, this is an argument from C.S, Lewis, and his definition of god differs greatly from yours.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
drpiek
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2/25/2015 10:50:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:40:28 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:27:18 PM, drpiek wrote:
For the theists that want lives of peace and do not try to impose their will on others, I have no issue and neither do most atheist. It is the religious zealot, spewing fear, hatred and death. Islamic extremists, Pedophile Priests hidden by the vatican, Salem Witch Trials, The Crusades. And the politically active religious who try to impose their will in government that piss off the atheists.

Thanks, Dr P. I'm not sure if you were aiming for it, but I thought you managed to present an inspid, dispassionate, self-absorbed atheist very well.

That's not the only kind, but inasmuch as anyone can be an atheist for any reason, I thought it was credible. :)

Thanks! I am glad i can pull of an atheist with some amount of credibility. Now i will go back to my panentheistic ways. Which by the way are much better than any other possible view. If you would like to devote your soul in everlasting servitude to me, I will happily share the "truth" with you. ;P He He, with threats of hellfire if you reject.
drpiek
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2/25/2015 10:54:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:44:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
What is a good person in your opinion? Is your opinion merited? Why or why not?

A bad person believe in the zero sum game. For me to win, you must lose. A good person believes in an additive approach where we can both win. My opinion has merit because of the value I have provided to the community around me and the fact that my views are logically self evident.
Benshapiro
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2/25/2015 10:57:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:54:25 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:44:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
What is a good person in your opinion? Is your opinion merited? Why or why not?

A bad person believe in the zero sum game. For me to win, you must lose. A good person believes in an additive approach where we can both win. My opinion has merit because of the value I have provided to the community around me and the fact that my views are logically self evident.

Is the "value" of anything objective?
drpiek
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2/25/2015 11:10:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:57:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:54:25 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:44:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
What is a good person in your opinion? Is your opinion merited? Why or why not?

A bad person believe in the zero sum game. For me to win, you must lose. A good person believes in an additive approach where we can both win. My opinion has merit because of the value I have provided to the community around me and the fact that my views are logically self evident.

Is the "value" of anything objective?

Yes, what it creates for each person in this world. For instance the existence of a brick is an objective outcome of the process of making a brick. Belief is subjective, but it can have an objective impact on reality. I believe my way of making bricks is better than yours because i can make them quicker. The belief in what is better is subjective, the fact that one way is quicker is objective.
RuvDraba
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2/25/2015 11:11:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:50:15 PM, drpiek wrote:
Thanks! I am glad i can pull of an atheist with some amount of credibility.

Yes. If you turned up with those beliefs at an Atheist's Convention, I believe you could pass okay. We wouldn't all point at you and croak like Donald Sutherland from Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

On the other hand, I'd be hanging up at the other end of the bar with a coterie of Humanists, including a couple of Roman Catholics who'd snuck in for the free booze, and a Quaker who'd gotten lost in the lobby, but found it interesting enough to stay.

Now i will go back to my panentheistic ways. Which by the way are much better than any other possible view. If you would like to devote your soul in everlasting servitude to me, I will happily share the "truth" with you. ;P He He, with threats of hellfire if you reject.

Just as I'd expect, you feelthy theist!
Benshapiro
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2/25/2015 11:16:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 11:10:38 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:57:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:54:25 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:44:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
What is a good person in your opinion? Is your opinion merited? Why or why not?

A bad person believe in the zero sum game. For me to win, you must lose. A good person believes in an additive approach where we can both win. My opinion has merit because of the value I have provided to the community around me and the fact that my views are logically self evident.

Is the "value" of anything objective?

Yes, what it creates for each person in this world. For instance the existence of a brick is an objective outcome of the process of making a brick. Belief is subjective, but it can have an objective impact on reality. I believe my way of making bricks is better than yours because i can make them quicker. The belief in what is better is subjective, the fact that one way is quicker is objective.

What if I wanted straw instead of bricks? Wouldn't your way of thinking make me worse off in that case? If belief in what is better is subjective, any objective outcome can only be what "is" and not what "ought" to be done. Since admittedly, desire is subjective, your opinion is not merited.