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Allah, The Merciful

ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/26/2015 12:51:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Curious question to Muslims. If I were to sin while being a Muslim, what do I need to do to be forgiven by Allah. Also, if somebody commits apostasy, are they allowed back?
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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2/26/2015 12:56:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 12:51:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Curious question to Muslims. If I were to sin while being a Muslim, what do I need to do to be forgiven by Allah. Also, if somebody commits apostasy, are they allowed back?

You need to be separated from what caused the sin. Lost a hand or head or just lashes to the body.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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2/26/2015 8:17:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 12:51:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Curious question to Muslims. If I were to sin while being a Muslim, what do I need to do to be forgiven by Allah.

If you knowingly committed a sin, why would you expect forgiveness? This is your lame attempt to contrast Islam with Christianity to supposedly show how the former is inferior in some way. Personally, I have never understood the Christian position on sin. It's basically a license to kill. You can commit any sin but as long as you repent you will be forgiven. It's having your cake and eating it too. I would prefer, if you commit the crime you do the time. That's how our justice systems work and this notion of Christian forgiveness is an unconscionable advertising gimmick to gain adherents.

Also, if somebody commits apostasy, are they allowed back?

Yes. An apostate is usually given a waiting period (typically about 3 days) to return to the faith before any punishment is imposed.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/26/2015 8:31:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 12:51:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Curious question to Muslims. If I were to sin while being a Muslim, what do I need to do to be forgiven by Allah. Also, if somebody commits apostasy, are they allowed back?

- Ask Allah directly (& sincerely) for forgiveness, that's it.

* "Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."" (39:53)

* "And whoever does a wrong or wrongs himself but then seeks forgiveness of Allah will find Allah Forgiving and Merciful." (4:110)

* The Prophet said: "Allah the Almighty has said:"O Son of Adam, as long as you invoke Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O Son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and you then asked forgiveness from Me, I would forgive you. O Son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the Earth, and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it [too]." "

* He also said: "All sons of Adam commit sin, and the best of those who commit sin are those who repent.""
[Abi Dawud #4251]

* He also said: "If somebody commits a sin and then says, 'O my Lord! I have sinned, please forgive me!' and his Lord says, 'My slave has known that he has a Lord who forgives sins and punishes for it, I therefore have forgiven my slave (his sins).' Then he remains without committing any sin for a while and then again commits another sin and says, 'O my Lord, I have committed another sin, please forgive me,' and Allah says, 'My slave has known that he has a Lord who forgives sins and punishes for it, I therefore have forgiven my slave (his sin). Then he remains without Committing any another sin for a while and then commits another sin (for the third time) and says, 'O my Lord, I have committed another sin, please forgive me,' and Allah says, 'My slave has known that he has a Lord Who forgives sins and punishes for it I therefore have forgiven My slave (his sin), let him do whatever he likes.". 'let him do..". means, as long he keeps asking for forgiveness after the commission of sins, and repents, Allah will forgive him because repentance eliminates previous sins'
[al-Bukhari #7507]

- Sinning here concerns one's transgressions against God, not against others. If one transgresses against others, the one should seek their forgiveness first, & then seek the forgiveness of God.

- As for Apostasy, of course if an apostate repents, he is thereby a muslim again. In Shari'a Law, even in case of the Death Penalty, there is a mandatory pending period where the Apostate is asked to repent before carrying out the sentence (the minimum period is 3 days, & it goes up to 1 year, or indefinitely according to some), & if he does repent, the Penalty is dropped.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/26/2015 9:48:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 8:31:21 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 12:51:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Curious question to Muslims. If I were to sin while being a Muslim, what do I need to do to be forgiven by Allah. Also, if somebody commits apostasy, are they allowed back?

- Ask Allah directly (& sincerely) for forgiveness, that's it.

* "Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."" (39:53)

* "And whoever does a wrong or wrongs himself but then seeks forgiveness of Allah will find Allah Forgiving and Merciful." (4:110)

* The Prophet said: "Allah the Almighty has said:"O Son of Adam, as long as you invoke Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O Son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and you then asked forgiveness from Me, I would forgive you. O Son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the Earth, and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it [too]." "

* He also said: "All sons of Adam commit sin, and the best of those who commit sin are those who repent.""
[Abi Dawud #4251]

* He also said: "If somebody commits a sin and then says, 'O my Lord! I have sinned, please forgive me!' and his Lord says, 'My slave has known that he has a Lord who forgives sins and punishes for it, I therefore have forgiven my slave (his sins).' Then he remains without committing any sin for a while and then again commits another sin and says, 'O my Lord, I have committed another sin, please forgive me,' and Allah says, 'My slave has known that he has a Lord who forgives sins and punishes for it, I therefore have forgiven my slave (his sin). Then he remains without Committing any another sin for a while and then commits another sin (for the third time) and says, 'O my Lord, I have committed another sin, please forgive me,' and Allah says, 'My slave has known that he has a Lord Who forgives sins and punishes for it I therefore have forgiven My slave (his sin), let him do whatever he likes.". 'let him do..". means, as long he keeps asking for forgiveness after the commission of sins, and repents, Allah will forgive him because repentance eliminates previous sins'
[al-Bukhari #7507]

- Sinning here concerns one's transgressions against God, not against others. If one transgresses against others, the one should seek their forgiveness first, & then seek the forgiveness of God.

- As for Apostasy, of course if an apostate repents, he is thereby a muslim again. In Shari'a Law, even in case of the Death Penalty, there is a mandatory pending period where the Apostate is asked to repent before carrying out the sentence (the minimum period is 3 days, & it goes up to 1 year, or indefinitely according to some), & if he does repent, the Penalty is dropped.

Alright. Why did Muhammad burn the original copies (rough drafts) of the Quran? This is something I hear about.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/26/2015 9:53:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 9:48:15 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Alright. Why did Muhammad burn the original copies (rough drafts) of the Quran? This is something I hear about.

- Where did you hear that?!
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/26/2015 10:02:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 9:53:40 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 9:48:15 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Alright. Why did Muhammad burn the original copies (rough drafts) of the Quran? This is something I hear about.

- Where did you hear that?!

Nabeel Qureshi gives lectures on Islam to Christians since he was a former Muslim. He states that one problem he found was that Muhammad or one of his followers burned their original copies of the Quran or their rough drafts.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/26/2015 10:11:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 10:02:03 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 9:53:40 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 9:48:15 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Alright. Why did Muhammad burn the original copies (rough drafts) of the Quran? This is something I hear about.

- Where did you hear that?!

Nabeel Qureshi gives lectures on Islam to Christians since he was a former Muslim. He states that one problem he found was that Muhammad or one of his followers burned their original copies of the Quran or their rough drafts.

- Well, there is a huge difference between saying the Prophet burned drafts of the Qur'an & saying one of his followers did.

- I think your comrade means Uthman Ibn Affan, the 4th Caliph & son in law to Muhammad. He was the 1st to Canonise the Qur'an into what's known as the Uthmanic Codex (al-Mushaf al-'Uthmani).

- What Uthman did was take the Compilation of the Qur'an that Abu Bakr (1st Caliph) collected & copy it into a single Codex, he then made 5 copies of that Codex, & sent them to the capitals of each region, & then ordered the burning of all copies made before this canonised version.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/26/2015 10:20:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 10:11:04 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:02:03 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 9:53:40 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 9:48:15 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Alright. Why did Muhammad burn the original copies (rough drafts) of the Quran? This is something I hear about.

- Where did you hear that?!

Nabeel Qureshi gives lectures on Islam to Christians since he was a former Muslim. He states that one problem he found was that Muhammad or one of his followers burned their original copies of the Quran or their rough drafts.

- Well, there is a huge difference between saying the Prophet burned drafts of the Qur'an & saying one of his followers did.

- I think your comrade means Uthman Ibn Affan, the 4th Caliph & son in law to Muhammad. He was the 1st to Canonise the Qur'an into what's known as the Uthmanic Codex (al-Mushaf al-'Uthmani).

- What Uthman did was take the Compilation of the Qur'an that Abu Bakr (1st Caliph) collected & copy it into a single Codex, he then made 5 copies of that Codex, & sent them to the capitals of each region, & then ordered the burning of all copies made before this canonised version.

Why did he burn them?
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/26/2015 10:26:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 10:20:06 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:11:04 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:02:03 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 9:53:40 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 9:48:15 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Alright. Why did Muhammad burn the original copies (rough drafts) of the Quran? This is something I hear about.

- Where did you hear that?!

Nabeel Qureshi gives lectures on Islam to Christians since he was a former Muslim. He states that one problem he found was that Muhammad or one of his followers burned their original copies of the Quran or their rough drafts.

- Well, there is a huge difference between saying the Prophet burned drafts of the Qur'an & saying one of his followers did.

- I think your comrade means Uthman Ibn Affan, the 4th Caliph & son in law to Muhammad. He was the 1st to Canonise the Qur'an into what's known as the Uthmanic Codex (al-Mushaf al-'Uthmani).

- What Uthman did was take the Compilation of the Qur'an that Abu Bakr (1st Caliph) collected & copy it into a single Codex, he then made 5 copies of that Codex, & sent them to the capitals of each region, & then ordered the burning of all copies made before this canonised version.

Why did he burn them?

- For many reasons, one of which is that the circulating copies started containing alterations & errors.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/26/2015 10:34:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 10:26:44 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:20:06 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:11:04 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:02:03 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 9:53:40 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 9:48:15 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Alright. Why did Muhammad burn the original copies (rough drafts) of the Quran? This is something I hear about.

- Where did you hear that?!

Nabeel Qureshi gives lectures on Islam to Christians since he was a former Muslim. He states that one problem he found was that Muhammad or one of his followers burned their original copies of the Quran or their rough drafts.

- Well, there is a huge difference between saying the Prophet burned drafts of the Qur'an & saying one of his followers did.

- I think your comrade means Uthman Ibn Affan, the 4th Caliph & son in law to Muhammad. He was the 1st to Canonise the Qur'an into what's known as the Uthmanic Codex (al-Mushaf al-'Uthmani).

- What Uthman did was take the Compilation of the Qur'an that Abu Bakr (1st Caliph) collected & copy it into a single Codex, he then made 5 copies of that Codex, & sent them to the capitals of each region, & then ordered the burning of all copies made before this canonised version.

Why did he burn them?

- For many reasons, one of which is that the circulating copies started containing alterations & errors.

Why were the circulating copies containing errors?
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/26/2015 10:52:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 10:34:49 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Why were the circulating copies containing errors?

- What do you expect, people copied them, & other copied the copies, stuff happens. That's why the State got involved, & Uthman made an official Codex, & discarded the rest.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/26/2015 10:57:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 10:52:38 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:34:49 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Why were the circulating copies containing errors?

- What do you expect, people copied them, & other copied the copies, stuff happens. That's why the State got involved, & Uthman made an official Codex, & discarded the rest.

So how do we know this codex isn't just another corrupted copy with errors?
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/26/2015 11:07:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 10:57:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:52:38 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:34:49 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Why were the circulating copies containing errors?

- What do you expect, people copied them, & other copied the copies, stuff happens. That's why the State got involved, & Uthman made an official Codex, & discarded the rest.

So how do we know this codex isn't just another corrupted copy with errors?

- It was copied directly from the Abu Bakr's Codex, that was written by the scribes of the Prophet & compiled later by Abu Bakr.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/26/2015 11:12:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 11:07:25 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:57:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:52:38 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:34:49 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Why were the circulating copies containing errors?

- What do you expect, people copied them, & other copied the copies, stuff happens. That's why the State got involved, & Uthman made an official Codex, & discarded the rest.

So how do we know this codex isn't just another corrupted copy with errors?

- It was copied directly from the Abu Bakr's Codex, that was written by the scribes of the Prophet & compiled later by Abu Bakr.

So they copied from the first original.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/26/2015 11:18:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 11:12:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:07:25 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:57:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:52:38 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:34:49 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Why were the circulating copies containing errors?

- What do you expect, people copied them, & other copied the copies, stuff happens. That's why the State got involved, & Uthman made an official Codex, & discarded the rest.

So how do we know this codex isn't just another corrupted copy with errors?

- It was copied directly from the Abu Bakr's Codex, that was written by the scribes of the Prophet & compiled later by Abu Bakr.

So they copied from the first original.

- Yep.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/27/2015 12:57:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 11:18:33 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:12:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:07:25 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:57:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:52:38 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:34:49 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Why were the circulating copies containing errors?

- What do you expect, people copied them, & other copied the copies, stuff happens. That's why the State got involved, & Uthman made an official Codex, & discarded the rest.

So how do we know this codex isn't just another corrupted copy with errors?

- It was copied directly from the Abu Bakr's Codex, that was written by the scribes of the Prophet & compiled later by Abu Bakr.

So they copied from the first original.

- Yep.

So do we still have that first original?
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/27/2015 1:32:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 12:57:01 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:18:33 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:12:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:07:25 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:57:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:52:38 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:34:49 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Why were the circulating copies containing errors?

- What do you expect, people copied them, & other copied the copies, stuff happens. That's why the State got involved, & Uthman made an official Codex, & discarded the rest.

So how do we know this codex isn't just another corrupted copy with errors?

- It was copied directly from the Abu Bakr's Codex, that was written by the scribes of the Prophet & compiled later by Abu Bakr.

So they copied from the first original.

- Yep.

So do we still have that first original?

- You mean Abu Bakr's Compilation, No.

- After Uthman copied it, he returned it to Hasfa (wife of the Prophet), & it stayed with her until she died. When she died, the Caliph then (Marwan Ibn al-Hakam) retrieved it & destroyed it.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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2/27/2015 2:58:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 12:51:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Curious question to Muslims. If I were to sin while being a Muslim, what do I need to do to be forgiven by Allah. Also, if somebody commits apostasy, are they allowed back?

Allah can't be any worse than the nasty, unmerciful deity featured in the Bible!
uncung
Posts: 3,431
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2/27/2015 3:59:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 12:51:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Curious question to Muslims. If I were to sin while being a Muslim, what do I need to do to be forgiven by Allah. Also, if somebody commits apostasy, are they allowed back?

one simply say:
O Allah forgive me.

Immediately Allah forgives all his/her sins.

for apostasy case, they simply re-recite the syahadah. Yes, they are allowed to back.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/27/2015 10:18:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 2:58:42 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 2/26/2015 12:51:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Curious question to Muslims. If I were to sin while being a Muslim, what do I need to do to be forgiven by Allah. Also, if somebody commits apostasy, are they allowed back?

Allah can't be any worse than the nasty, unmerciful deity featured in the Bible!

I agree that God ordered things that would have made me an atheist during the Old Testament times.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/27/2015 10:20:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 1:32:50 AM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/27/2015 12:57:01 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:18:33 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:12:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:07:25 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:57:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:52:38 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:34:49 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Why were the circulating copies containing errors?

- What do you expect, people copied them, & other copied the copies, stuff happens. That's why the State got involved, & Uthman made an official Codex, & discarded the rest.

So how do we know this codex isn't just another corrupted copy with errors?

- It was copied directly from the Abu Bakr's Codex, that was written by the scribes of the Prophet & compiled later by Abu Bakr.

So they copied from the first original.

- Yep.

So do we still have that first original?

- You mean Abu Bakr's Compilation, No.

- After Uthman copied it, he returned it to Hasfa (wife of the Prophet), & it stayed with her until she died. When she died, the Caliph then (Marwan Ibn al-Hakam) retrieved it & destroyed it.

This idea of destroying the originals is why I'm skeptical. I'm sure the originals of the bible were lost, but to think of burning the originals down, must show some sign of the muslims didn't want something to be known.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,481
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2/27/2015 11:16:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 10:18:20 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/27/2015 2:58:42 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 2/26/2015 12:51:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Curious question to Muslims. If I were to sin while being a Muslim, what do I need to do to be forgiven by Allah. Also, if somebody commits apostasy, are they allowed back?

Allah can't be any worse than the nasty, unmerciful deity featured in the Bible!

I agree that God ordered things that would have made me an atheist during the Old Testament times.

yeah and the same God you worship was Jesus who revealed the OT, S.Paul (is inspired by the Holy Ghost) says -
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

so the Holy Ghost made him to say this one who is according to you part of the Trinity thing.

Welcome to Atheism.
Never fart near dog
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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2/27/2015 12:00:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 10:20:49 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
- After Uthman copied it, he returned it to Hasfa (wife of the Prophet), & it stayed with her until she died. When she died, the Caliph then (Marwan Ibn al-Hakam) retrieved it & destroyed it.

This idea of destroying the originals is why I'm skeptical. I'm sure the originals of the bible were lost, but to think of burning the originals down, must show some sign of the muslims didn't want something to be known.

- Actually, it's for the opposite, the story is much more complex than you think.

- The Original Codex contains all 7 Huruf, i.e. each verse was transcribed in up to 7 forms. These 7 Huruf represent the 7 Tongues of the Arabs. So, in Uthman's Rule, & when the Islamic Empire spread from the borders of India to Tunisia, the Arabic that was spread at the time was the Qurashi Tongue, & thus only the original tribes of the other 6 Tongues would properly understand the Qur'an in their Tongue. So, Uthman decided to copy the Original Codex but only the Qurashy Harf of it, & all the companions agreed on that decision by Consensus.

- So, the Uthmanic Codex is identical to the Original Qurashy Codex, & since, the Original Codex was not standardised & contained other forms, it was destroyed so that it won't create any confusions & can not be exploited later by those unfamiliar with its corresponding Tongues.
=> The Ten Recitations are the Recitations of the Qur'an corresponding to the Uthmanic Codex.

- However, other Original Codexes weren't destroyed, such as Ibn Masu'd's Codex, Aisha'a Codex, Ubayy's Codex. . . & their corresponding Recitations survived in the rest of the 50 Recitations of the Qur'an (minus the Ten Recitation).

> I am not sure if you understand what I am saying here, if you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask :) .
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/27/2015 12:08:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 11:16:39 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/27/2015 10:18:20 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/27/2015 2:58:42 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 2/26/2015 12:51:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Curious question to Muslims. If I were to sin while being a Muslim, what do I need to do to be forgiven by Allah. Also, if somebody commits apostasy, are they allowed back?

Allah can't be any worse than the nasty, unmerciful deity featured in the Bible!

I agree that God ordered things that would have made me an atheist during the Old Testament times.

yeah and the same God you worship was Jesus who revealed the OT, S.Paul (is inspired by the Holy Ghost) says -
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

so the Holy Ghost made him to say this one who is according to you part of the Trinity thing.

Welcome to Atheism.

And the Christian God goes to great lengths to forgive his creation.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,481
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2/27/2015 12:55:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 12:08:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/27/2015 11:16:39 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/27/2015 10:18:20 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/27/2015 2:58:42 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 2/26/2015 12:51:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Curious question to Muslims. If I were to sin while being a Muslim, what do I need to do to be forgiven by Allah. Also, if somebody commits apostasy, are they allowed back?

Allah can't be any worse than the nasty, unmerciful deity featured in the Bible!

I agree that God ordered things that would have made me an atheist during the Old Testament times.

yeah and the same God you worship was Jesus who revealed the OT, S.Paul (is inspired by the Holy Ghost) says -
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

so the Holy Ghost made him to say this one who is according to you part of the Trinity thing.

Welcome to Atheism.

And the Christian God goes to great lengths to forgive his creation.

*unless you believe Jesus died on the cross and resurrected.
*the criminals who do many things like rape murder incest will be forgiven for their belief in Jesus and they have free tickets to heaven without punishment and others will suffer eternal hellfire including good people helping poors for life ...
*he is soo Merciful that he kills 50,070 people for looking into a box.
*he is soo Merciful that he punishs all mankind for Adam and Eve's sin eating the apple, everybody going to hell for that, and man must work hard and women have to feel pain in child birth...

you got my point...
Never fart near dog
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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2/27/2015 7:27:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 12:55:58 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/27/2015 12:08:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/27/2015 11:16:39 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/27/2015 10:18:20 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/27/2015 2:58:42 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 2/26/2015 12:51:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Curious question to Muslims. If I were to sin while being a Muslim, what do I need to do to be forgiven by Allah. Also, if somebody commits apostasy, are they allowed back?

Allah can't be any worse than the nasty, unmerciful deity featured in the Bible!

I agree that God ordered things that would have made me an atheist during the Old Testament times.

yeah and the same God you worship was Jesus who revealed the OT, S.Paul (is inspired by the Holy Ghost) says -
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

so the Holy Ghost made him to say this one who is according to you part of the Trinity thing.

Welcome to Atheism.

And the Christian God goes to great lengths to forgive his creation.

*unless you believe Jesus died on the cross and resurrected.
*the criminals who do many things like rape murder incest will be forgiven for their belief in Jesus and they have free tickets to heaven without punishment and others will suffer eternal hellfire including good people helping poors for life ...
*he is soo Merciful that he kills 50,070 people for looking into a box.
*he is soo Merciful that he punishs all mankind for Adam and Eve's sin eating the apple, everybody going to hell for that, and man must work hard and women have to feel pain in child birth...

you got my point...

1. I don't believe Adam and Eve or Genesis 1-11 gives a historical account. I believe in Evolutionary Creation and believe when the first man came to be, he was going to rule over the rest of creation. But he sinned and fell short as what happens in Romans 5:12.

2. How many people did Muhammad or his followers kill compared to Christ?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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2/27/2015 7:30:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 10:20:49 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/27/2015 1:32:50 AM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/27/2015 12:57:01 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:18:33 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:12:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 11:07:25 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:57:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:52:38 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:34:49 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Why were the circulating copies containing errors?

- What do you expect, people copied them, & other copied the copies, stuff happens. That's why the State got involved, & Uthman made an official Codex, & discarded the rest.

So how do we know this codex isn't just another corrupted copy with errors?

- It was copied directly from the Abu Bakr's Codex, that was written by the scribes of the Prophet & compiled later by Abu Bakr.

So they copied from the first original.

- Yep.

So do we still have that first original?

- You mean Abu Bakr's Compilation, No.

- After Uthman copied it, he returned it to Hasfa (wife of the Prophet), & it stayed with her until she died. When she died, the Caliph then (Marwan Ibn al-Hakam) retrieved it & destroyed it.

This idea of destroying the originals is why I'm skeptical. I'm sure the originals of the bible were lost, but to think of burning the originals down, must show some sign of the muslims didn't want something to be known.

Me and Yassine have a nearly-finished debate on this if you are interested.
http://www.debate.org...
seeu46
Posts: 578
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2/28/2015 12:26:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 10:57:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:52:38 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 2/26/2015 10:34:49 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Why were the circulating copies containing errors?

- What do you expect, people copied them, & other copied the copies, stuff happens. That's why the State got involved, & Uthman made an official Codex, & discarded the rest.

So how do we know this codex isn't just another corrupted copy with errors?

Or how doe we know the one with errors was not the correct one? Or they were hiding a truth that they wanted no one to know. From what I understand there prophet didn't even make the Quran.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,481
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2/28/2015 6:30:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 7:27:32 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/27/2015 12:55:58 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/27/2015 12:08:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/27/2015 11:16:39 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 2/27/2015 10:18:20 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/27/2015 2:58:42 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 2/26/2015 12:51:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Curious question to Muslims. If I were to sin while being a Muslim, what do I need to do to be forgiven by Allah. Also, if somebody commits apostasy, are they allowed back?

Allah can't be any worse than the nasty, unmerciful deity featured in the Bible!

I agree that God ordered things that would have made me an atheist during the Old Testament times.

yeah and the same God you worship was Jesus who revealed the OT, S.Paul (is inspired by the Holy Ghost) says -
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

so the Holy Ghost made him to say this one who is according to you part of the Trinity thing.

Welcome to Atheism.

And the Christian God goes to great lengths to forgive his creation.

*unless you believe Jesus died on the cross and resurrected.
*the criminals who do many things like rape murder incest will be forgiven for their belief in Jesus and they have free tickets to heaven without punishment and others will suffer eternal hellfire including good people helping poors for life ...
*he is soo Merciful that he kills 50,070 people for looking into a box.
*he is soo Merciful that he punishs all mankind for Adam and Eve's sin eating the apple, everybody going to hell for that, and man must work hard and women have to feel pain in child birth...

you got my point...

1. I don't believe Adam and Eve or Genesis 1-11 gives a historical account. I believe in Evolutionary Creation and believe when the first man came to be, he was going to rule over the rest of creation. But he sinned and fell short as what happens in Romans 5:12.

so you admitting you dont believe parts of the Bible and cherry picking whatever you like... what logic is that


2. How many people did Muhammad or his followers kill compared to Christ?

zero. Christ according to you the same God who kills everybody in the stories in the OT. i gave you little samples above, prophet Muhhamed (saw) killed how many (in all the wars in this life time as a defensive retaliation) or killing people as a Sadistic man? where you have a comparison? are you joking me... 50,070 for looking into a box alone.

and you know in the second coming Jesus will kill everybody all who wont like him.. wow what a merciful God.
Never fart near dog