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A genuine request for any theist:

pricebailey123
Posts: 38
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3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?(Or any other request. Please don't give strawmen saying that isn't a proper prayer, I have done once or twice.)

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray? Why should the fate of a child with pertussis be determined by how many people can pray for it? If the father prays, why isn't that enough? Why does a random stranger need to? And, why do they need to pray at all? Does an innocent child dying require outside mass consensus and praise to a God to save it's life for something it didn't even do? To be honest, that is either egotism, sadism, or both.

To self identify, I am an agnostic atheist, apistevist, methodological naturalist, and philosophy of science major, not some agnostic who is confused. I don't need to be pushed in a direction, and I don't need anyone's prayers. I have made my choice and have plenty of reasons to, but I have asked this question to every theist I know, and not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. To anyone.

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.
dee-em
Posts: 6,473
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3/1/2015 7:23:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?(Or any other request. Please don't give strawmen saying that isn't a proper prayer, I have done once or twice.)

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray? Why should the fate of a child with pertussis be determined by how many people can pray for it? If the father prays, why isn't that enough? Why does a random stranger need to? And, why do they need to pray at all? Does an innocent child dying require outside mass consensus and praise to a God to save it's life for something it didn't even do? To be honest, that is either egotism, sadism, or both.

To self identify, I am an agnostic atheist, apistevist, methodological naturalist, and philosophy of science major, not some agnostic who is confused. I don't need to be pushed in a direction, and I don't need anyone's prayers. I have made my choice and have plenty of reasons to, but I have asked this question to every theist I know, and not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. To anyone.

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.

Prayer works. Look at the number of sporting people who thank God for their success after winning. Proof!
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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3/1/2015 8:05:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?(Or any other request. Please don't give strawmen saying that isn't a proper prayer, I have done once or twice.)

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray? Why should the fate of a child with pertussis be determined by how many people can pray for it? If the father prays, why isn't that enough? Why does a random stranger need to? And, why do they need to pray at all? Does an innocent child dying require outside mass consensus and praise to a God to save it's life for something it didn't even do? To be honest, that is either egotism, sadism, or both.

To self identify, I am an agnostic atheist, apistevist, methodological naturalist, and philosophy of science major, not some agnostic who is confused. I don't need to be pushed in a direction, and I don't need anyone's prayers. I have made my choice and have plenty of reasons to, but I have asked this question to every theist I know, and not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. To anyone.

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.

You know the old saying that "Funerals are for the living, not for the dead"? Well, prayer is for the comfort of the one who is performing the prayer, not an attempt to alter the future.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/1/2015 9:36:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?(Or any other request. Please don't give strawmen saying that isn't a proper prayer, I have done once or twice.)

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray? Why should the fate of a child with pertussis be determined by how many people can pray for it? If the father prays, why isn't that enough? Why does a random stranger need to? And, why do they need to pray at all? Does an innocent child dying require outside mass consensus and praise to a God to save it's life for something it didn't even do? To be honest, that is either egotism, sadism, or both.

To self identify, I am an agnostic atheist, apistevist, methodological naturalist, and philosophy of science major, not some agnostic who is confused. I don't need to be pushed in a direction, and I don't need anyone's prayers. I have made my choice and have plenty of reasons to, but I have asked this question to every theist I know, and not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. To anyone.

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.

As God's last saint, He taught me that the Lord's Prayer is a prayer to forgive others who have sinned against me. Then He told me that everyone prays for things they want instead of what they need. He said that they don't know what they need. He said what they need is the Holy Spirit so He told me to pray for the Holy Spirit.

Two weeks later, I was born of God and began to start testifying to His knowledge ( Holy Spirit ) and learn who I was and everything else He wanted me to know.

God planned, created and formed everything according to His program called Eternal Life. Men pray because He wrote the script for them to pray needlessly.

God had me pray a few times while He was getting me ready for the born of God experience. He would always put in my mind what to pray for and after praying, it miraculously happened, just as He had asked me for. This was to get me to trust Him later on when I started preaching the gospel for Him. To speak and write for Him takes total trust in Him because of all the antichrists who attack the Word of God that I'm testifying to. You can easily see these attacking antichrists in this forum if you're observing it.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,378
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3/1/2015 9:50:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?(Or any other request. Please don't give strawmen saying that isn't a proper prayer, I have done once or twice.)

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray? Why should the fate of a child with pertussis be determined by how many people can pray for it? If the father prays, why isn't that enough? Why does a random stranger need to? And, why do they need to pray at all? Does an innocent child dying require outside mass consensus and praise to a God to save it's life for something it didn't even do? To be honest, that is either egotism, sadism, or both.

To self identify, I am an agnostic atheist, apistevist, methodological naturalist, and philosophy of science major, not some agnostic who is confused. I don't need to be pushed in a direction, and I don't need anyone's prayers. I have made my choice and have plenty of reasons to, but I have asked this question to every theist I know, and not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. To anyone.

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.
There's 2 ways to approach this. The first is the way I think you approach it which is from the standpoint that God doesn't exist, or probably doesn't exist, so therefore why do we Christians waste our time.

The other way to approach it will require that you step out of those shoes (agnostic atheist), and into the shoes of a believer with the idea that God (the God of the Bible) actually exists. By doing so, your questions are still valid, because we are now questioning God's actions.

Here's an interesting passage:

1 John 5:14
Parallel Verses
New International Version
This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

1 John 5:15
Parallel Verses
New International Version
And if we know that he hears us--whatever we ask--we know that we have what we asked of him.

Throughout the Bible God works with and through His servants. We can see this through Noah to the Apostle Paul and the disciples. God obviously could have done anything without the aid of any servant mentioned in scripture. It's the same in prayer. When a Christian prays, they are in communion with God. When a Christian prays for something specific, there might be multiple exchanges going on between the Christian and God. God might speak to the Christian about something in their life that should not be there for instance. In fact, scripture indicates that the answer to prayer can be hindered due to issues of sin in a Christian's life.

So why, even though everything is predetermined in the sense that God knows what will happen ahead of time should Christians pray (when placing yourself in the shoes of a Christian and God actually existing)? One very good reason is because God has instructed us to.

As far as praying to be taller, one of the manifestations in prayer is to lose certain desires. It's sort of a price to pay in getting closer to God. What may seem important for a time loses it's significance. There are Christians however who have prayed for things that they believed God did answer that could be considered shallow, only to find out that they were left feeling unsatisfied. A lesson of sorts was learned that not all desires remain when placed in a hot furnace. Some of them burn away, while some (the stronger one's) remain.
Sequoyah
Posts: 3
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3/2/2015 6:23:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?(Or any other request. Please don't give strawmen saying that isn't a proper prayer, I have done once or twice.)

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray? Why should the fate of a child with pertussis be determined by how many people can pray for it? If the father prays, why isn't that enough? Why does a random stranger need to? And, why do they need to pray at all? Does an innocent child dying require outside mass consensus and praise to a God to save it's life for something it didn't even do? To be honest, that is either egotism, sadism, or both.

To self identify, I am an agnostic atheist, apistevist, methodological naturalist, and philosophy of science major, not some agnostic who is confused. I don't need to be pushed in a direction, and I don't need anyone's prayers. I have made my choice and have plenty of reasons to, but I have asked this question to every theist I know, and not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. To anyone.

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.

Prayer serves a volitional alignment of the human spirit with the divine Spirit. As Y'Shua taught, it should occur in private, as prayerful communion is intrinsically intimate and essentially non-conversational. Generally speaking, those who know only public formulas for prayer have much to learn before real progress in the spiritual walk can occur; for "prayer without ceasing" requires proficiency in the practice of non-verbal prayer.

b.
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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3/2/2015 7:15:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan?

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray?

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.

The act of prayer is not 'for God', it's for us. We pray for calm, for strength, for clarity, for guidance, for forgiveness, for the well-being of others, to express gratitude, to express our fears, and doubts, and for peace and wholeness. And we do this because this is who we are, and what we need to do in that moment; not because we think God does not 'know' our condition, or circumstances.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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3/2/2015 10:28:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?(Or any other request. Please don't give strawmen saying that isn't a proper prayer, I have done once or twice.)

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray? Why should the fate of a child with pertussis be determined by how many people can pray for it? If the father prays, why isn't that enough? Why does a random stranger need to? And, why do they need to pray at all? Does an innocent child dying require outside mass consensus and praise to a God to save it's life for something it didn't even do? To be honest, that is either egotism, sadism, or both.

To self identify, I am an agnostic atheist, apistevist, methodological naturalist, and philosophy of science major, not some agnostic who is confused. I don't need to be pushed in a direction, and I don't need anyone's prayers. I have made my choice and have plenty of reasons to, but I have asked this question to every theist I know, and not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. To anyone.

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.

Depends on how you prayer. When I pray, it's usually for a sign so that nothing changes, but that I can be more aware of the plan.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/2/2015 10:37:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm not sure what the problem is here. It might be part of God's plan that you be a participant in your own drama (or that it be collaborative) which would obviously require your own volition - which might include prayer.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/2/2015 10:44:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Also even if we were to accept your thesis that life is predetermined you are confusing determinism with fatalism. It's a really common confusion but it's not correct.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
v3nesl
Posts: 4,493
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3/2/2015 10:52:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?

Well, he does change his mind in response to prayer.

I think the problem here may simply be a desire to preserve simplistic theological concepts like predestination. Well, even physical light is a wave, like waves in the water, only these waves can oscillate in nothing, in a vacuum. Go figure. It's a wave and a particle. Don't bother trying to form a mental image of that, you just have to accept both versions of light.

So how much more should we expect the creator of light to be tad hard to figure out?
God tells us he has it all figured out, don't worry, and he also tells us to pray. Go figure. And go pray. In many fields of life we must first act by rote and hope we understand things better later on. "Just put your fingers here, and here. That's a G chord. Now strum."
This space for rent.
v3nesl
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3/2/2015 10:53:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 10:37:58 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'm not sure what the problem is here. It might be part of God's plan that you be a participant in your own drama (or that it be collaborative) which would obviously require your own volition - which might include prayer.

Yeah, there you go. Well said.
This space for rent.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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3/2/2015 1:22:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?(Or any other request. Please don't give strawmen saying that isn't a proper prayer, I have done once or twice.)

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray? Why should the fate of a child with pertussis be determined by how many people can pray for it? If the father prays, why isn't that enough? Why does a random stranger need to? And, why do they need to pray at all? Does an innocent child dying require outside mass consensus and praise to a God to save it's life for something it didn't even do? To be honest, that is either egotism, sadism, or both.

To self identify, I am an agnostic atheist, apistevist, methodological naturalist, and philosophy of science major, not some agnostic who is confused. I don't need to be pushed in a direction, and I don't need anyone's prayers. I have made my choice and have plenty of reasons to, but I have asked this question to every theist I know, and not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. To anyone.

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.

I can only speak for myself, and others like me.

Those of us who know God have no reason to expect him to answer prayers that don't fit in with his plans, either for us, or humanity as a whole. That is why the model prayer that Christ left us to make our own version of teaches to pray for God's will to be done, not our own, and only for the basic necessities of life.

Jehovah knows what we need before we ever ask him.

For us, prayer is an opportunity to thank Jehovah for all he has done for us, and an opportunity for a "conversation" with a close friend, because for us, that is exactly what Jehovah is, and the best friend anyone could ever wish for.

There is no harm in praying for anything that is important to us, as long as we are prepared for Jehovah to, in effect, say NO.

That same model prayer also reminds us to hallow, or make holy, Jehovah's name, which very dew churches even teach, let alone hallow.

No, prayer does not need rationalising, just doing, and doing according to the rules for it.

That is why Jesus left us the model prayer, sometimes called the Lords Prayer, as a model for us to learn from, not to repeat meaninglessly every Sunday.
pricebailey123
Posts: 38
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3/2/2015 3:52:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/1/2015 9:36:42 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?(Or any other request. Please don't give strawmen saying that isn't a proper prayer, I have done once or twice.)

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray? Why should the fate of a child with pertussis be determined by how many people can pray for it? If the father prays, why isn't that enough? Why does a random stranger need to? And, why do they need to pray at all? Does an innocent child dying require outside mass consensus and praise to a God to save it's life for something it didn't even do? To be honest, that is either egotism, sadism, or both.

To self identify, I am an agnostic atheist, apistevist, methodological naturalist, and philosophy of science major, not some agnostic who is confused. I don't need to be pushed in a direction, and I don't need anyone's prayers. I have made my choice and have plenty of reasons to, but I have asked this question to every theist I know, and not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. To anyone.

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.

As God's last saint, He taught me that the Lord's Prayer is a prayer to forgive others who have sinned against me. Then He told me that everyone prays for things they want instead of what they need. He said that they don't know what they need. He said what they need is the Holy Spirit so He told me to pray for the Holy Spirit.

Two weeks later, I was born of God and began to start testifying to His knowledge ( Holy Spirit ) and learn who I was and everything else He wanted me to know.

God planned, created and formed everything according to His program called Eternal Life. Men pray because He wrote the script for them to pray needlessly.

God had me pray a few times while He was getting me ready for the born of God experience. He would always put in my mind what to pray for and after praying, it miraculously happened, just as He had asked me for. This was to get me to trust Him later on when I started preaching the gospel for Him. To speak and write for Him takes total trust in Him because of all the antichrists who attack the Word of God that I'm testifying to. You can easily see these attacking antichrists in this forum if you're observing it.

Apart from the classic creationist blab in between, you said, "Then He told me that everyone prays for things they want instead of what they need. " Afterwards was just a bunch of Christian non sequitur.

My third paragraph really stymies what you said there. If God knows that you need, why are you praying for what you want if you won't get it? If you pray for what you want, and it just happens to be something you need, then you get it, but if not, you don't. So, when your kid is about to die, and you pray, and nothing happens, you must not "need" your kid. And if God was moral, then what you "need" would be the kid living. But then again, why should you have to intervene if your kid is dying? And again, why should strangers need to pile on the the pity party and appeal to the deity so he can finally get his number of votes for the kids life? There is no point to prayer then.
pricebailey123
Posts: 38
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3/2/2015 3:56:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/1/2015 9:50:20 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?(Or any other request. Please don't give strawmen saying that isn't a proper prayer, I have done once or twice.)

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray? Why should the fate of a child with pertussis be determined by how many people can pray for it? If the father prays, why isn't that enough? Why does a random stranger need to? And, why do they need to pray at all? Does an innocent child dying require outside mass consensus and praise to a God to save it's life for something it didn't even do? To be honest, that is either egotism, sadism, or both.

To self identify, I am an agnostic atheist, apistevist, methodological naturalist, and philosophy of science major, not some agnostic who is confused. I don't need to be pushed in a direction, and I don't need anyone's prayers. I have made my choice and have plenty of reasons to, but I have asked this question to every theist I know, and not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. To anyone.

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.
There's 2 ways to approach this. The first is the way I think you approach it which is from the standpoint that God doesn't exist, or probably doesn't exist, so therefore why do we Christians waste our time.

The other way to approach it will require that you step out of those shoes (agnostic atheist), and into the shoes of a believer with the idea that God (the God of the Bible) actually exists. By doing so, your questions are still valid, because we are now questioning God's actions.

Here's an interesting passage:

1 John 5:14
Parallel Verses
New International Version
This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

1 John 5:15
Parallel Verses
New International Version
And if we know that he hears us--whatever we ask--we know that we have what we asked of him.

Throughout the Bible God works with and through His servants. We can see this through Noah to the Apostle Paul and the disciples. God obviously could have done anything without the aid of any servant mentioned in scripture. It's the same in prayer. When a Christian prays, they are in communion with God. When a Christian prays for something specific, there might be multiple exchanges going on between the Christian and God. God might speak to the Christian about something in their life that should not be there for instance. In fact, scripture indicates that the answer to prayer can be hindered due to issues of sin in a Christian's life.

So why, even though everything is predetermined in the sense that God knows what will happen ahead of time should Christians pray (when placing yourself in the shoes of a Christian and God actually existing)? One very good reason is because God has instructed us to.

As far as praying to be taller, one of the manifestations in prayer is to lose certain desires. It's sort of a price to pay in getting closer to God. What may seem important for a time loses it's significance. There are Christians however who have prayed for things that they believed God did answer that could be considered shallow, only to find out that they were left feeling unsatisfied. A lesson of sorts was learned that not all desires remain when placed in a hot furnace. Some of them burn away, while some (the stronger one's) remain.

Well, your premise can't be assume a priori, otherwise we shouldn't question anything. If we don't question things without presuppositions, everything is validated.

For example: Why do pastafarians worship the FSM? Well, from an outside standpoint, it would look silly, and from there, we can analyze it. But if you say, well, let's assume the FSM is real, then yeah, they are verified. You can easily do that to anything.
pricebailey123
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3/2/2015 3:56:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 7:15:44 AM, PureX wrote:
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan?

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray?

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.

The act of prayer is not 'for God', it's for us. We pray for calm, for strength, for clarity, for guidance, for forgiveness, for the well-being of others, to express gratitude, to express our fears, and doubts, and for peace and wholeness. And we do this because this is who we are, and what we need to do in that moment; not because we think God does not 'know' our condition, or circumstances.

So in short, utterly pointless.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/2/2015 3:57:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 3:52:07 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
At 3/1/2015 9:36:42 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?(Or any other request. Please don't give strawmen saying that isn't a proper prayer, I have done once or twice.)

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray? Why should the fate of a child with pertussis be determined by how many people can pray for it? If the father prays, why isn't that enough? Why does a random stranger need to? And, why do they need to pray at all? Does an innocent child dying require outside mass consensus and praise to a God to save it's life for something it didn't even do? To be honest, that is either egotism, sadism, or both.

To self identify, I am an agnostic atheist, apistevist, methodological naturalist, and philosophy of science major, not some agnostic who is confused. I don't need to be pushed in a direction, and I don't need anyone's prayers. I have made my choice and have plenty of reasons to, but I have asked this question to every theist I know, and not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. To anyone.

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.

As God's last saint, He taught me that the Lord's Prayer is a prayer to forgive others who have sinned against me. Then He told me that everyone prays for things they want instead of what they need. He said that they don't know what they need. He said what they need is the Holy Spirit so He told me to pray for the Holy Spirit.

Two weeks later, I was born of God and began to start testifying to His knowledge ( Holy Spirit ) and learn who I was and everything else He wanted me to know.

God planned, created and formed everything according to His program called Eternal Life. Men pray because He wrote the script for them to pray needlessly.

God had me pray a few times while He was getting me ready for the born of God experience. He would always put in my mind what to pray for and after praying, it miraculously happened, just as He had asked me for. This was to get me to trust Him later on when I started preaching the gospel for Him. To speak and write for Him takes total trust in Him because of all the antichrists who attack the Word of God that I'm testifying to. You can easily see these attacking antichrists in this forum if you're observing it.

Apart from the classic creationist blab in between, you said, "Then He told me that everyone prays for things they want instead of what they need. " Afterwards was just a bunch of Christian non sequitur.

My third paragraph really stymies what you said there. If God knows that you need, why are you praying for what you want if you won't get it? If you pray for what you want, and it just happens to be something you need, then you get it, but if not, you don't. So, when your kid is about to die, and you pray, and nothing happens, you must not "need" your kid. And if God was moral, then what you "need" would be the kid living. But then again, why should you have to intervene if your kid is dying? And again, why should strangers need to pile on the the pity party and appeal to the deity so he can finally get his number of votes for the kids life? There is no point to prayer then.

The only point to prayer is that God made His people think that it's important. It's only important to the saints that He plans on using for testifying to His knowledge. By God answering the prayer that He requests us to ask, we learn to trust Him for the knowledge that we eventually have to testify to in writing and speaking for Him. These testimonies reveal things that have been hidden from His people ever since the first people woke up in this make-believe world that planned, created and formed called the Eternal Life program.

Think of us as characters an dour life experiences in the information of a CD-ROM called "Eternal Life".
pricebailey123
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3/2/2015 3:57:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 10:28:56 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?(Or any other request. Please don't give strawmen saying that isn't a proper prayer, I have done once or twice.)

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray? Why should the fate of a child with pertussis be determined by how many people can pray for it? If the father prays, why isn't that enough? Why does a random stranger need to? And, why do they need to pray at all? Does an innocent child dying require outside mass consensus and praise to a God to save it's life for something it didn't even do? To be honest, that is either egotism, sadism, or both.

To self identify, I am an agnostic atheist, apistevist, methodological naturalist, and philosophy of science major, not some agnostic who is confused. I don't need to be pushed in a direction, and I don't need anyone's prayers. I have made my choice and have plenty of reasons to, but I have asked this question to every theist I know, and not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. To anyone.

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.

Depends on how you prayer. When I pray, it's usually for a sign so that nothing changes, but that I can be more aware of the plan.

Kind of totally missed the rest of my original post.
pricebailey123
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3/2/2015 3:59:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 10:44:54 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Also even if we were to accept your thesis that life is predetermined you are confusing determinism with fatalism. It's a really common confusion but it's not correct.

No, I am not.

Omniscience warrants determinism.

Determinism:

the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will.

If you read my original post, that is exactly what I am talking about. You can liken it to fatalism, because in this situation, they both apply, but are not mutually exclusive.
pricebailey123
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3/2/2015 4:01:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 10:52:03 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?

Well, he does change his mind in response to prayer.

I think the problem here may simply be a desire to preserve simplistic theological concepts like predestination. Well, even physical light is a wave, like waves in the water, only these waves can oscillate in nothing, in a vacuum. Go figure. It's a wave and a particle. Don't bother trying to form a mental image of that, you just have to accept both versions of light.

So how much more should we expect the creator of light to be tad hard to figure out?
God tells us he has it all figured out, don't worry, and he also tells us to pray. Go figure. And go pray. In many fields of life we must first act by rote and hope we understand things better later on. "Just put your fingers here, and here. That's a G chord. Now strum."

"Well, he does change his mind in response to prayer."

You literally can not prove that. Literally.

You just tried to dodge the whole thing with an argument from complexity fallacy. I don't really let that kind of stuff slide. Try again.
pricebailey123
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3/2/2015 4:08:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 1:22:46 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?(Or any other request. Please don't give strawmen saying that isn't a proper prayer, I have done once or twice.)

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray? Why should the fate of a child with pertussis be determined by how many people can pray for it? If the father prays, why isn't that enough? Why does a random stranger need to? And, why do they need to pray at all? Does an innocent child dying require outside mass consensus and praise to a God to save it's life for something it didn't even do? To be honest, that is either egotism, sadism, or both.

To self identify, I am an agnostic atheist, apistevist, methodological naturalist, and philosophy of science major, not some agnostic who is confused. I don't need to be pushed in a direction, and I don't need anyone's prayers. I have made my choice and have plenty of reasons to, but I have asked this question to every theist I know, and not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. To anyone.

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.

I can only speak for myself, and others like me.

Those of us who know God have no reason to expect him to answer prayers that don't fit in with his plans, either for us, or humanity as a whole. That is why the model prayer that Christ left us to make our own version of teaches to pray for God's will to be done, not our own, and only for the basic necessities of life.

Jehovah knows what we need before we ever ask him.

For us, prayer is an opportunity to thank Jehovah for all he has done for us, and an opportunity for a "conversation" with a close friend, because for us, that is exactly what Jehovah is, and the best friend anyone could ever wish for.

There is no harm in praying for anything that is important to us, as long as we are prepared for Jehovah to, in effect, say NO.

That same model prayer also reminds us to hallow, or make holy, Jehovah's name, which very dew churches even teach, let alone hallow.

No, prayer does not need rationalising, just doing, and doing according to the rules for it.

That is why Jesus left us the model prayer, sometimes called the Lords Prayer, as a model for us to learn from, not to repeat meaninglessly every Sunday.

" Those of us who know God have no reason to expect him to answer prayers that don't fit in with his plans, either for us, or humanity as a whole. That is why the model prayer that Christ left us to make our own version of teaches to pray for God's will to be done, not our own, and only for the basic necessities of life."

Which warrants that our requests are pointless. Like I said. "Please God can you keep my newborn from coughing holes in her chest" is not thanking god. It is a request. And whatever happens happens. Which leads to my point, "What is the point of prayer?" Implying that there isn't one.

" the best friend anyone could ever wish for."

I think I chucked audibly at this. A friend you can't see, you can't hear, you can't touch, who made you to worship him, and a friend who cares so much about you that he will torture you for all of eternity in a fiery lake of hell with the most vile people on earth because you didn't cut your penis right. But he "loves" you. "Best friend", if we seriously need to talk about the morality of God, we can open a new topic.

"There is no harm in praying for anything that is important to us, as long as we are prepared for Jehovah to, in effect, say NO."

Which only reinforces my thesis, prayer is pointless.

"No, prayer does not need rationalising, just doing, and doing according to the rules for it."

Are you seriously saying we don't have the right to logically scrutinize something that people get their kids violently and slowly tortured for? You must be sick.
pricebailey123
Posts: 38
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3/2/2015 4:11:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 3:57:04 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/2/2015 3:52:07 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
At 3/1/2015 9:36:42 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?(Or any other request. Please don't give strawmen saying that isn't a proper prayer, I have done once or twice.)

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray? Why should the fate of a child with pertussis be determined by how many people can pray for it? If the father prays, why isn't that enough? Why does a random stranger need to? And, why do they need to pray at all? Does an innocent child dying require outside mass consensus and praise to a God to save it's life for something it didn't even do? To be honest, that is either egotism, sadism, or both.

To self identify, I am an agnostic atheist, apistevist, methodological naturalist, and philosophy of science major, not some agnostic who is confused. I don't need to be pushed in a direction, and I don't need anyone's prayers. I have made my choice and have plenty of reasons to, but I have asked this question to every theist I know, and not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. To anyone.

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.

As God's last saint, He taught me that the Lord's Prayer is a prayer to forgive others who have sinned against me. Then He told me that everyone prays for things they want instead of what they need. He said that they don't know what they need. He said what they need is the Holy Spirit so He told me to pray for the Holy Spirit.

Two weeks later, I was born of God and began to start testifying to His knowledge ( Holy Spirit ) and learn who I was and everything else He wanted me to know.

God planned, created and formed everything according to His program called Eternal Life. Men pray because He wrote the script for them to pray needlessly.

God had me pray a few times while He was getting me ready for the born of God experience. He would always put in my mind what to pray for and after praying, it miraculously happened, just as He had asked me for. This was to get me to trust Him later on when I started preaching the gospel for Him. To speak and write for Him takes total trust in Him because of all the antichrists who attack the Word of God that I'm testifying to. You can easily see these attacking antichrists in this forum if you're observing it.

Apart from the classic creationist blab in between, you said, "Then He told me that everyone prays for things they want instead of what they need. " Afterwards was just a bunch of Christian non sequitur.

My third paragraph really stymies what you said there. If God knows that you need, why are you praying for what you want if you won't get it? If you pray for what you want, and it just happens to be something you need, then you get it, but if not, you don't. So, when your kid is about to die, and you pray, and nothing happens, you must not "need" your kid. And if God was moral, then what you "need" would be the kid living. But then again, why should you have to intervene if your kid is dying? And again, why should strangers need to pile on the the pity party and appeal to the deity so he can finally get his number of votes for the kids life? There is no point to prayer then.

The only point to prayer is that God made His people think that it's important. It's only important to the saints that He plans on using for testifying to His knowledge. By God answering the prayer that He requests us to ask, we learn to trust Him for the knowledge that we eventually have to testify to in writing and speaking for Him. These testimonies reveal things that have been hidden from His people ever since the first people woke up in this make-believe world that planned, created and formed called the Eternal Life program.

Think of us as characters an dour life experiences in the information of a CD-ROM called "Eternal Life".

Well thanks, you validated my thesis, prayer is pointless.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/2/2015 4:27:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 3:59:37 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
At 3/2/2015 10:44:54 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Also even if we were to accept your thesis that life is predetermined you are confusing determinism with fatalism. It's a really common confusion but it's not correct.

No, I am not.


Yes, actually you are.

What you said:

At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.


Determinism doesn't entail that "it will happen whether or not you do anything about it". Fatalism does, but determinism doesn't. Determinism allows that what you do has significant impact on what will happen so it doesn't entail that the outcome is predetermined whether or not you intervene.

Say that causal factors determined that your aunt develops cancer and God knows this.
Say that God also knows that you will pray for your aunt *and due to that prayer* and her cancer goes into remission for the rest of her life.

How does that show the outcome is predetermined, whether you or not you would of intervened? Had the causal factors been different you wouldn't prayed and thus your aunts cancer wouldn'tve gone into remission. Clearly, in this hypothetical case, what you did mattered to your aunt's cancer going into remission even if the causal factors, given the way the world actually is, determined that you would do so.

Omniscience warrants determinism.


That's highly debatable.

Determinism:

the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will.

If you read my original post, that is exactly what I am talking about. You can liken it to fatalism, because in this situation, they both apply, but are not mutually exclusive.

I did read it. You are arguing against fatalism.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/2/2015 4:37:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 4:11:29 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
At 3/2/2015 3:57:04 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/2/2015 3:52:07 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
At 3/1/2015 9:36:42 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan? He has a massive divine itinerary, why would he change it for some schmuck who wants to be taller?(Or any other request. Please don't give strawmen saying that isn't a proper prayer, I have done once or twice.)

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it. Before he created the universe, he already knew what would happen when your Aunt received terminal breast cancer, and the outcome is already predetermined, whether or not you intervene. So why exactly would you asking him to change anything help? What will happen is predetermined, so there is no reason to fret over the answer.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray? Why should the fate of a child with pertussis be determined by how many people can pray for it? If the father prays, why isn't that enough? Why does a random stranger need to? And, why do they need to pray at all? Does an innocent child dying require outside mass consensus and praise to a God to save it's life for something it didn't even do? To be honest, that is either egotism, sadism, or both.

To self identify, I am an agnostic atheist, apistevist, methodological naturalist, and philosophy of science major, not some agnostic who is confused. I don't need to be pushed in a direction, and I don't need anyone's prayers. I have made my choice and have plenty of reasons to, but I have asked this question to every theist I know, and not one has given me an answer that makes any sense. To anyone.

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.

As God's last saint, He taught me that the Lord's Prayer is a prayer to forgive others who have sinned against me. Then He told me that everyone prays for things they want instead of what they need. He said that they don't know what they need. He said what they need is the Holy Spirit so He told me to pray for the Holy Spirit.

Two weeks later, I was born of God and began to start testifying to His knowledge ( Holy Spirit ) and learn who I was and everything else He wanted me to know.

God planned, created and formed everything according to His program called Eternal Life. Men pray because He wrote the script for them to pray needlessly.

God had me pray a few times while He was getting me ready for the born of God experience. He would always put in my mind what to pray for and after praying, it miraculously happened, just as He had asked me for. This was to get me to trust Him later on when I started preaching the gospel for Him. To speak and write for Him takes total trust in Him because of all the antichrists who attack the Word of God that I'm testifying to. You can easily see these attacking antichrists in this forum if you're observing it.

Apart from the classic creationist blab in between, you said, "Then He told me that everyone prays for things they want instead of what they need. " Afterwards was just a bunch of Christian non sequitur.

My third paragraph really stymies what you said there. If God knows that you need, why are you praying for what you want if you won't get it? If you pray for what you want, and it just happens to be something you need, then you get it, but if not, you don't. So, when your kid is about to die, and you pray, and nothing happens, you must not "need" your kid. And if God was moral, then what you "need" would be the kid living. But then again, why should you have to intervene if your kid is dying? And again, why should strangers need to pile on the the pity party and appeal to the deity so he can finally get his number of votes for the kids life? There is no point to prayer then.

The only point to prayer is that God made His people think that it's important. It's only important to the saints that He plans on using for testifying to His knowledge. By God answering the prayer that He requests us to ask, we learn to trust Him for the knowledge that we eventually have to testify to in writing and speaking for Him. These testimonies reveal things that have been hidden from His people ever since the first people woke up in this make-believe world that planned, created and formed called the Eternal Life program.

Think of us as characters an dour life experiences in the information of a CD-ROM called "Eternal Life".

Well thanks, you validated my thesis, prayer is pointless.

I haven't had to pray since the last time God had me pray the Lord's prayer in May of 2008.
MadCornishBiker
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3/2/2015 4:48:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 4:08:28 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
At 3/2/2015 1:22:46 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

That is why Jesus left us the model prayer, sometimes called the Lords Prayer, as a model for us to learn from, not to repeat meaninglessly every Sunday.

" Those of us who know God have no reason to expect him to answer prayers that don't fit in with his plans, either for us, or humanity as a whole. That is why the model prayer that Christ left us to make our own version of teaches to pray for God's will to be done, not our own, and only for the basic necessities of life."

Which warrants that our requests are pointless. Like I said. "Please God can you keep my newborn from coughing holes in her chest" is not thanking god. It is a request. And whatever happens happens. Which leads to my point, "What is the point of prayer?" Implying that there isn't one.

Oh there is one, as I explained, but there is no point in asking for something it is not in God's plan to provide, or not his tiem for providing.

When I was about 8 I prayed to God fro guidance to find the people who taught his word, his way, and to help me to serve him his way..

It took him over 2 decades to answer, but answer he did.


" the best friend anyone could ever wish for."

I think I chucked audibly at this. A friend you can't see, you can't hear, you can't touch, who made you to worship him, and a friend who cares so much about you that he will torture you for all of eternity in a fiery lake of hell with the most vile people on earth because you didn't cut your penis right. But he "loves" you. "Best friend", if we seriously need to talk about the morality of God, we can open a new topic.

No, God will never torment anyone for eternity, that is a false teaching which comes from Satan not from God. The worst God offers to those who do not wish to cooperate is oblivion.

The God I worship, and who Christ and the Apostles worship would never even think of tormenting someone who had already paid the price for their errors.

You have a very jaundiced view of God, and certainly not one which comes from his word, the bible, though wicked people do use it, and twist it to teach that sort of thing., at Satan's behest. Satan always was good at twisting scripture, as he proved when tempting Christ in the wilderness.


"There is no harm in praying for anything that is important to us, as long as we are prepared for Jehovah to, in effect, say NO."

Which only reinforces my thesis, prayer is pointless.


Not really. His will is what is best for all of us. That, in the end, is all he wants, and will soon get. Son his will shall be done on earth as it is in heaven, just as Jesus taught us to pray for, and then those who are there to enjoy it, will benefit from it.

"No, prayer does not need rationalising, just doing, and doing according to the rules for it."

Are you seriously saying we don't have the right to logically scrutinize something that people get their kids violently and slowly tortured for? You must be sick.

No I am not because if you do scrutinise it you will see that is not what happens at al.

It is those who insist that it does, against all scriptural evidence, who are truly sick
bulproof
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3/2/2015 5:27:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 7:15:44 AM, PureX wrote:
At 3/1/2015 2:58:17 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:
Exactly how do theists, especially Christian believing ones, rationalize prayer?

If God has a plan, why would your prayer change that plan?

If God is omniscient, he already knows what is going to happen, and it will happen whether or not you do anything about it.

If God is moral, why does he require or accept mass laudatory appeals in prayer, that is, per se, multiple people praying. Why would anyone need more than one person to pray?

I would genuinely like to know how people rationalize it.

The act of prayer is not 'for God', it's for us. We pray for calm, for strength, for clarity, for guidance, for forgiveness, for the well-being of others, to express gratitude, to express our fears, and doubts, and for peace and wholeness. And we do this because this is who we are, and what we need to do in that moment; not because we think God does not 'know' our condition, or circumstances.

Self pacification, big deal, no god needed.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,247
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3/2/2015 5:30:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 4:27:24 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Say that causal factors determined that your aunt develops cancer and God knows this.
Say that God also knows that you will pray for your aunt *and due to that prayer* and her cancer goes into remission for the rest of her life.

How does that show the outcome is predetermined, whether you or not you would of intervened? Had the causal factors been different you wouldn't prayed and thus your aunts cancer wouldn'tve gone into remission. Clearly, in this hypothetical case, what you did mattered to your aunt's cancer going into remission even if the causal factors, given the way the world actually is, determined that you would do so.
Or let's say that the great green one eyed toad had determined no remission and so your aunt dies.
Let's all suppose whatever it is pacifies us.
Or face reality.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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3/2/2015 6:13:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 3:56:46 PM, pricebailey123 wrote:

So in short, utterly pointless.

To you, maybe. But then it's not all about you, is it.
PureX
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3/2/2015 6:16:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 5:27:44 PM, bulproof wrote:

Self pacification, big deal, no god needed.

People want God because they need faith, to live.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,493
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3/3/2015 7:17:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 6:16:29 PM, PureX wrote:
At 3/2/2015 5:27:44 PM, bulproof wrote:

Self pacification, big deal, no god needed.

People want God because they need faith, to live.

Yeah, and people want food because they need it to live. People want air because they need to breathe, to live.

So this is one of the logical arguments FOR the existence of God. Not sure if you meant it that way, but it surely is.
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