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Reality is illusory if atheism is true

Benshapiro
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3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.
DanneJeRusse
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3/5/2015 8:36:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

LOL, If black was white, grey wouldn't be purple. Could you at least try to start a post that isn't fallacious?
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Benshapiro
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3/5/2015 8:42:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 8:36:57 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

LOL, If black was white, grey wouldn't be purple. Could you at least try to start a post that isn't fallacious?

if you don't understand my post I'll gladly walk you through it
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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3/5/2015 9:29:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

What? I don't understand the significance of your conclusion, much less understand how you can be sure about premise 1. or 3.

Your thoughts aren't really separated from the rest of matter. Your thoughts are simply a series of chemical reactions that occur in specific sequences. These chemical reactions, when you get down to the base level, is complex chemical and physical reactions between atoms. The rest of the universe operates this way.

So how is mentality different from physicality? You asserted that mentality arose from non-mentality, however, how is mentality just not a more complicated form of physicality?

And why can something created by something not observe what it was created from?

I agree with the other person. This doesn't make a lot of sense.
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UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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3/5/2015 9:55:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

The fundamental properties of the universe are not contingent on how our consciousness emerged, as far as I can tell. What a strange thing to assume.

we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

I agree with this. I thought so did most people who have studied basic psychology, neuroscience, or philosophy of mind.


If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

That seems like a false dichotomy. Illusory generally means something much more extreme than 'imperfect'. Why wouldn't it just be that our perception of reality (particularly our every day reality on our scale of existence) is merely imperfect? Certainly, over time, we've come to see that our perceptions of reality have not revealed to us deeper truths of reality on their own.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

This doesn't follow from anything that you've said. Why is atheism incompatible with the idea that reality is mental? What stops an atheist from being unconvinced about a theistic god but believing that consciousness is fundamental to the universe? And what about atheism makes reality illusory? You've jumped from our perception or reality being illusory to reality itself being illusory with no explanation.
GamrDeb8rBbrH8r
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3/5/2015 10:07:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
P1) If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality, we can only perceive reality mentally.

Accepted

C1) Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

False. There's a chance it could be reality, but we can never be sure if our eyes are all pointed toward the same reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Accepted

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

False. An atheist could be a solipsist.
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Burzmali
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3/5/2015 10:10:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

Same question as when you were talking about truth not having objective value: so what? It's pretty much universally agreed that we don't fully perceive reality. What we "see" is just a picture created in our minds based on light stimuli. So what if it's effectively an illusion?
bornofgod
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3/5/2015 11:55:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

Could you explain in a little more detail of what you're trying to say here. I'm always interested in people who think outside the tiny box of religion.
RuvDraba
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3/6/2015 12:03:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

we can only perceive reality mentally.

This sounds like some sort of retread on Cartesian dualism, Ben, and I'm not sure it has anything to do with atheism so much as arising from the mind/body division you elected to begin with. (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

To throw a spanner into the works, please define 'mental' in empirical terms.

I suspect you'll end up defining it behaviourally, based on the subject's report of experiences (the subject potentially being oneself or someone else); and you might find that the whole mess untangles.
Bennett91
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3/6/2015 12:16:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

Lets evaluate Bens logic.

P1: Consciousness came from non-life then the universe is neither alive nor conscious.
P2: We only perceive reality through our own subjective conscious lenses.
P3: If we do not perceive Reality, our perception is subjective.
C: Because atheism does not claim objective truth, reality is subjective. Ergo atheism false.

Is that right?
RuvDraba
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3/6/2015 12:24:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
As an afterthought, what's with half the theists on DDO conflating atheism with materialism?

Atheism is non-doctrinal. It's the rejection of a particular doctrine, and for centuries atheists have suffered an undifferentiated lumping-together by theists who really didn't care why atheists rejected their claims in the first place. So having disrespected our sensibilities, now our dear theistic colleagues are following-up by writing the atheistic doctrinal manual for us.

How sweet of you!

But atheists are free to believe in magic, ghosts, telepathy, flat earth, alien conspiracies or the Matrix if they want. They're free to be Stoics, Epicurians, nihilists, materialists, Marxists, secular humanists, naturalists, hedonists, solipsists, Quantum Taoists, Unitarians or anti-Beiberites.

It's true that some atheists are strongly antimagical and/or materialistic, but not all are. And the only thing you can say for sure about an atheist is that he doesn't believe in the worship or propitiation of gods.

So, seriously, dear theistic colleagues. Kindly stop imputing belief to atheists. It's dumb, bigoted, self-serving, paternalistic and vaguely offensive.

Like red-haired people, we're all different. You created the 'too hard' basket for us, so now suck it up, buttercup.

You want to know what an atheist thinks? Show some respect, and ask a freakin' question.
Benshapiro
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3/6/2015 12:48:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 9:29:46 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

What? I don't understand the significance of your conclusion, much less understand how you can be sure about premise 1. or 3.

If you don't find it significant that reality is illusory then the conclusion would be insignificant. I didn't have any premises numbered so which are you referring to?

Your thoughts aren't really separated from the rest of matter. Your thoughts are simply a series of chemical reactions that occur in specific sequences. These chemical reactions, when you get down to the base level, is complex chemical and physical reactions between atoms. The rest of the universe operates this way.

So how is mentality different from physicality? You asserted that mentality arose from non-mentality, however, how is mentality just not a more complicated form of physicality?

Because when you refer to "physicality" you're referring to a mentally conceived thing. "Mental" means of or relating to the mind. A rock has mental properties. It has color, shape, weight, texture, etc., but all of these properties exist only in the mind. Atoms are mentally conceived as well. It's impossible to refer to a non-mental thing because a non-mental thing is inconceivable.

And why can something created by something not observe what it was created from?

Because a "non-mental" thing would be inconceivable to us. All of our perceptions are mental.

I agree with the other person. This doesn't make a lot of sense.
Benshapiro
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3/6/2015 1:04:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 9:55:04 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

The fundamental properties of the universe are not contingent on how our consciousness emerged, as far as I can tell. What a strange thing to assume.

The properties of the universe may have been mental before anything mental emerged?

we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

I agree with this. I thought so did most people who have studied basic psychology, neuroscience, or philosophy of mind.


If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

That seems like a false dichotomy. Illusory generally means something much more extreme than 'imperfect'. Why wouldn't it just be that our perception of reality (particularly our every day reality on our scale of existence) is merely imperfect? Certainly, over time, we've come to see that our perceptions of reality have not revealed to us deeper truths of reality on their own.

An 'imperfect' perception would just be a distortion of some objective mental reality. A non-mental reality would be totally inconceivable.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

This doesn't follow from anything that you've said. Why is atheism incompatible with the idea that reality is mental? What stops an atheist from being unconvinced about a theistic god but believing that consciousness is fundamental to the universe? And what about atheism makes reality illusory? You've jumped from our perception or reality being illusory to reality itself being illusory with no explanation.

Atheism is incompatible with the idea that reality is *fundamentally* mental meaning that reality has always been a mental perception. Reality is illusory because we can't perceive the fundamental non-mental reality that our mental perceptions emerged from. I don't see how a consciousness can be fundamental in a Godless worldview.
Benshapiro
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3/6/2015 1:07:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 10:07:15 PM, GamrDeb8rBbrH8r wrote:
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
P1) If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality, we can only perceive reality mentally.

Accepted

C1) Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

False. There's a chance it could be reality, but we can never be sure if our eyes are all pointed toward the same reality.

It's impossible for something mental to perceive something non-mental.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Accepted

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

False. An atheist could be a solipsist.

Logically? I don't think so.
Benshapiro
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3/6/2015 1:18:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 12:03:03 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:

we can only perceive reality mentally.

This sounds like some sort of retread on Cartesian dualism, Ben, and I'm not sure it has anything to do with atheism so much as arising from the mind/body division you elected to begin with. (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

To throw a spanner into the works, please define 'mental' in empirical terms.

I suspect you'll end up defining it behaviourally, based on the subject's report of experiences (the subject potentially being oneself or someone else); and you might find that the whole mess untangles.

I'm defining 'mental' as "of or relating to the mind". Everything that we can possibly ever conceive of is irrevocably mental. Atheism is not logically compatible with the notion that mind is the fundamental reality. Wouldn't you agree?
Envisage
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3/6/2015 1:18:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:


1.If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.
2.we can only perceive reality mentally.
C. Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

Conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, the argument is structurally invalid.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

Perception of reality =/= reality. This is an asinine equivocation. We build models of reality in our mind, only naive materialism (which is an actual ontology) posits otherwise. Anyone who looks at an optical illusion will be inclined to agree with that.
RuvDraba
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3/6/2015 1:23:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 1:18:01 AM, Benshapiro wrote:

I'm defining 'mental' as "of or relating to the mind".

I understood that, Ben. It was an empirical definition of mind I was looking for. it's easy to propose a subjective definition of mind, but can you propose an empirical one?

I'm not trying to be obstructive or evasive here, but if your definition of mind is based on subjective assertion rather than empirical observation then I think you may have assumed your conclusion.

You also seem to be headed for the possible conclusion that psychology as a science requires a belief in God. That would be an interesting inference to say the least, since even among scientists with their high level of atheism, psychologists tend to poll alongside sociologists as the least religious of the lot. :)
bornofgod
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3/6/2015 1:25:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 1:18:23 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:


1.If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.
2.we can only perceive reality mentally.
C. Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

Conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, the argument is structurally invalid.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

Perception of reality =/= reality. This is an asinine equivocation. We build models of reality in our mind, only naive materialism (which is an actual ontology) posits otherwise. Anyone who looks at an optical illusion will be inclined to agree with that.

Are you and I going to Hangout tomorrow?
Benshapiro
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3/6/2015 1:37:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 1:18:23 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:


1.If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.
2.we can only perceive reality mentally.
C. Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

Conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, the argument is structurally invalid.

It wasn't presented as a logical syllogism. The argument is followed implicitly.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

Perception of reality =/= reality. This is an asinine equivocation. We build models of reality in our mind, only naive materialism (which is an actual ontology) posits otherwise. Anyone who looks at an optical illusion will be inclined to agree with that.

Any knowable reality can't be anything other than a perception. That's why a fundamentally non-mental reality would make our (mental) perceptions of reality illusory.
Graincruncher
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3/6/2015 1:44:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

While this whole argument is a disjointed mess, I'd just like to point out that we already know that what we perceive is very different from what is "really" there.
Envisage
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3/6/2015 3:34:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 1:37:37 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/6/2015 1:18:23 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:


1.If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.
2.we can only perceive reality mentally.
C. Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

Conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, the argument is structurally invalid.

It wasn't presented as a logical syllogism. The argument is followed implicitly.

Then it's a bad argument, because one could accept both premises and not be required to accept the conclusion. Structure your argument properly. I for one do accept P2 and do not accept P1, since the physical universe doesn't necessarily need to be fundamental, it could be emergent from another substance, even a mental one or simulation, lol. But even if I do accept P1, I am no closer to accepting your conclusion.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

Perception of reality =/= reality. This is an asinine equivocation. We build models of reality in our mind, only naive materialism (which is an actual ontology) posits otherwise. Anyone who looks at an optical illusion will be inclined to agree with that.

Any knowable reality can't be anything other than a perception. That's why a fundamentally non-mental reality would make our (mental) perceptions of reality illusory.

I mostly agree, but perception of reality still =/= reality, lol. Yes, our depiction of reality is necessarily mental, that's it. It tells you nothing about the ontological nature of reality, epistemology and ontology and very different things.
GamrDeb8rBbrH8r
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3/6/2015 7:31:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 1:07:10 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/5/2015 10:07:15 PM, GamrDeb8rBbrH8r wrote:
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
P1) If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality, we can only perceive reality mentally.

Accepted

C1) Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

False. There's a chance it could be reality, but we can never be sure if our eyes are all pointed toward the same reality.

It's impossible for something mental to perceive something non-mental.

False. It's just impossible for the mentality to know for sure that what it perceives is real or not.


If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Accepted

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

False. An atheist could be a solipsist.

Logically? I don't think so.
Yeah they could.
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UndeniableReality
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3/6/2015 7:59:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 1:04:08 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/5/2015 9:55:04 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

The fundamental properties of the universe are not contingent on how our consciousness emerged, as far as I can tell. What a strange thing to assume.

The properties of the universe may have been mental before anything mental emerged?

You didn't say we were talking about the first emergence of consciousness. What I'm saying is that consciousness could have emerged more than once. To be honest, I did think you were talking about the emergence of human consciousness, which says nothing about whether the universe is mental or non-mental.


we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

I agree with this. I thought so did most people who have studied basic psychology, neuroscience, or philosophy of mind.


If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

That seems like a false dichotomy. Illusory generally means something much more extreme than 'imperfect'. Why wouldn't it just be that our perception of reality (particularly our every day reality on our scale of existence) is merely imperfect? Certainly, over time, we've come to see that our perceptions of reality have not revealed to us deeper truths of reality on their own.

An 'imperfect' perception would just be a distortion of some objective mental reality. A non-mental reality would be totally inconceivable.

Or a distortion of a non-mental reality. Why is a non-mental reality inconceivable? All you did was repeat your assertion.


Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

This doesn't follow from anything that you've said. Why is atheism incompatible with the idea that reality is mental? What stops an atheist from being unconvinced about a theistic god but believing that consciousness is fundamental to the universe? And what about atheism makes reality illusory? You've jumped from our perception or reality being illusory to reality itself being illusory with no explanation.

Atheism is incompatible with the idea that reality is *fundamentally* mental meaning that reality has always been a mental perception. Reality is illusory because we can't perceive the fundamental non-mental reality that our mental perceptions emerged from. I don't see how a consciousness can be fundamental in a Godless worldview.

All you're doing is repeating your assertion without refuting what I've said or justifying what you've said. I just covered the first two points you made, in your last paragraph, so I think they can be dismissed until you have a response.

Your last sentence is an honest one. You don't see how it could be the case (though you haven't even addressed my example, and there are today atheists who believe reality is fundamentally consciousness), which of course, has little to no bearing on whether it is the case.
dhardage
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3/6/2015 8:34:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

Ben, Ben, Ben. Please stop with the 'mental reality'. It's absolutely false and, forgive me for saying so, but awfully foolish. We perceive reality mentally, we don't create it. It's there whether we perceive it or not. By your reasoning, the universe disappears every time I go to sleep and reappears when I wake up. That's just plain ridiculous. All your really describing is solipsism.
Harikrish
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3/6/2015 10:44:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

You got it wrong. Atheists don't believe God exists. Everything else is possible in their worldview including consciousness, illusions, perceptions and misguided believers.
drpiek
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3/6/2015 11:02:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/5/2015 10:07:15 PM, GamrDeb8rBbrH8r wrote:
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
P1) If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality, we can only perceive reality mentally.

Accepted

C1) Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

False. There's a chance it could be reality, but we can never be sure if our eyes are all pointed toward the same reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Accepted

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

False. An atheist could be a solipsist.

A Solipsist is a person who believes the only thing that exists is the self. This would make the self and god synonymous. So that would make a solipsist atheist a person who does not believe in themselves. Seems odd to me.
UndeniableReality
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3/6/2015 12:05:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 11:02:53 AM, drpiek wrote:
At 3/5/2015 10:07:15 PM, GamrDeb8rBbrH8r wrote:
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
P1) If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality, we can only perceive reality mentally.

Accepted

C1) Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

False. There's a chance it could be reality, but we can never be sure if our eyes are all pointed toward the same reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Accepted

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

False. An atheist could be a solipsist.

A Solipsist is a person who believes the only thing that exists is the self. This would make the self and god synonymous. So that would make a solipsist atheist a person who does not believe in themselves. Seems odd to me.

That makes me think of a not-too-interesting question. If god told you he was not a god, would you say he was wrong?
Benshapiro
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3/6/2015 12:19:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 3:34:20 AM, Envisage wrote:

Let me just ask you the following:

Ontologically, reality is either mental or non-mental. Correct?

If it's neither, what remaining option is there?

If it's both, I have a few follow up questions:

(1) if reality is ontologically both mental and non-mental, both mind and the physical are fundamental. Any mental reality couldn't be emergent..

If you disagree with (1), remember that to "exist" means that something is physically or metaphysically *possible*. If you tried to argue that reality is ontologically both mental and non-mental but the mental is emergent, then you'd be claiming that a metaphysical reality existed within a purely physical reality. It's logically impossible.

Let's just see where you sit so far.
Benshapiro
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3/6/2015 12:31:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 8:34:05 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

Ben, Ben, Ben. Please stop with the 'mental reality'. It's absolutely false and, forgive me for saying so, but awfully foolish. We perceive reality mentally, we don't create it. It's there whether we perceive it or not. By your reasoning, the universe disappears every time I go to sleep and reappears when I wake up. That's just plain ridiculous. All your really describing is solipsism.

Is the reality that we perceive mental or non-mental?
Benshapiro
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3/6/2015 12:32:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 10:44:04 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/5/2015 7:58:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
If consciousness emerged from the non-mental, a non-mental universe is the fundamental reality.

we can only perceive reality mentally.

Therefore whatever we perceive cannot be the fundamental reality.

If what we perceive is not the fundamental reality, our perceptions of reality are illusory.

Since atheism is incompatible with the notion that reality is fundamentally mental, reality is illusory if atheism is true.

You got it wrong. Atheists don't believe God exists. Everything else is possible in their worldview including consciousness, illusions, perceptions and misguided believers.

If consciousness is the prime reality it's incompatible with atheism. The closest to atheism one could get is pantheism.