Total Posts:54|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Prayer to any God has not being shown to work

Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2015 11:09:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What I have in mind is people who pray to a God to cure them of some ill health condition.

There are heaps of people who will testify that they prayed to God, and God responded to that prayer by healing them. From that itchy spot on the back of your next to stage 4 lung cancer and everything in between.

But here is the problem, if you give me say 1 billion people and we pray to the sun, and say pray over many different things over a 10 year period, as a matter of probability we are going to get alot of hits. That is to say outcomes which could be seen as answered pray from the sun.

Some people may even think this constitutes good reason to believe in the healing power of the sun..........it doesn't, it's just confirmation bias.

If you believe in the so called one true God and the rest are false (and thus such believers are in error), how come your one true God has not being shown to be any more effective at such prays than say any other so called false God ?

How comes it has not being shown that praying to one particular God or in a particular way or with particular conditions met has being shown any more effective than praying to the sun or a so called false God or the flying spaghetti monster ?

Does it bother you to anyone who believes they believe in the one true God that you so called God has not being shown to produce any better results than praying to a false God ?

Do you even care about such matters ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2015 11:47:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 11:09:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
What I have in mind is people who pray to a God to cure them of some ill health condition.

There are heaps of people who will testify that they prayed to God, and God responded to that prayer by healing them. From that itchy spot on the back of your next to stage 4 lung cancer and everything in between.

But here is the problem, if you give me say 1 billion people and we pray to the sun, and say pray over many different things over a 10 year period, as a matter of probability we are going to get alot of hits. That is to say outcomes which could be seen as answered pray from the sun.

Some people may even think this constitutes good reason to believe in the healing power of the sun..........it doesn't, it's just confirmation bias.

If you believe in the so called one true God and the rest are false (and thus such believers are in error), how come your one true God has not being shown to be any more effective at such prays than say any other so called false God ?

How comes it has not being shown that praying to one particular God or in a particular way or with particular conditions met has being shown any more effective than praying to the sun or a so called false God or the flying spaghetti monster ?

Does it bother you to anyone who believes they believe in the one true God that you so called God has not being shown to produce any better results than praying to a false God ?

Do you even care about such matters ?

That's the problem Christians have. They pray to someone they have no clue about. Since they don't know Him, why would they expect Him to honor their prayers.

However, our Creator did design many miracles that are perfectly timed with some Christian prayers to totally confuse them and make them believe God answers SOME of their prayers.

Besides, why would He honor the prayers of Christians who worship another god ( Jesus ) before Him?
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2015 2:44:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
What sort of deity to answer some prayers for healing but turn a deaf ear to others? A very unpleasant one!

In 2006 my husband suffered a devastating brain haemorrhage. He wasn't expected to live, and if he did the medics said he would be left drooling in nursing home. Well meaning people prayed for my husband's recovery even though he is a convinced atheist. At the same time a 'born again' Christian friend of ours was also very ill and no doubt prayers were said for his recovery too. My husband lived, and went on to make a much better than expected recovery, in spite of having half his brain trashed. Our friend died which traumatised his family greatly, financially as well as emotionally, especially as his children were still young, whilst our were all adults. Surely our friend, a very decent guy, deserved to live too?

Incidentally my husband claims that whilst in a coma he had some sort of experience which convinced him, beyond all shadow of doubt, there is no deity or afterlife.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2015 3:32:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/7/2015 2:52:59 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
My countryman Tim Minchin has put some thoughts on this to music, and
I find I have nothing to add.

http://youtu.be...

Hey at least post a vid where we have visuals. Ya gotta see Tims facial expression to get the full effect.

https://www.youtube.com...
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2015 4:05:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 11:09:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
What I have in mind is people who pray to a God to cure them of some ill health condition.

There are heaps of people who will testify that they prayed to God, and God responded to that prayer by healing them. From that itchy spot on the back of your next to stage 4 lung cancer and everything in between.

But here is the problem, if you give me say 1 billion people and we pray to the sun, and say pray over many different things over a 10 year period, as a matter of probability we are going to get alot of hits. That is to say outcomes which could be seen as answered pray from the sun.

Some people may even think this constitutes good reason to believe in the healing power of the sun..........it doesn't, it's just confirmation bias.

If you believe in the so called one true God and the rest are false (and thus such believers are in error), how come your one true God has not being shown to be any more effective at such prays than say any other so called false God ?

How comes it has not being shown that praying to one particular God or in a particular way or with particular conditions met has being shown any more effective than praying to the sun or a so called false God or the flying spaghetti monster ?

Does it bother you to anyone who believes they believe in the one true God that you so called God has not being shown to produce any better results than praying to a false God ?

Do you even care about such matters ?

Christians can pray from here to eternity, yet they will never have their God regrow an arm or a leg on an amputee, even though they claim he cures all kinds of cancers and other ailments. I wonder what God has against amputees?

Cue the disingenuous response from Christians. When medical science does eventually crack the problem of limb regrowth, well that would be God directing their efforts in response to prayer. They can never accept reality. Lol.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2015 1:55:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/7/2015 2:44:58 AM, JJ50 wrote:
What sort of deity to answer some prayers for healing but turn a deaf ear to others? A very unpleasant one!

In 2006 my husband suffered a devastating brain haemorrhage. He wasn't expected to live, and if he did the medics said he would be left drooling in nursing home. Well meaning people prayed for my husband's recovery even though he is a convinced atheist. At the same time a 'born again' Christian friend of ours was also very ill and no doubt prayers were said for his recovery too. My husband lived, and went on to make a much better than expected recovery, in spite of having half his brain trashed. Our friend died which traumatised his family greatly, financially as well as emotionally, especially as his children were still young, whilst our were all adults. Surely our friend, a very decent guy, deserved to live too?

Incidentally my husband claims that whilst in a coma he had some sort of experience which convinced him, beyond all shadow of doubt, there is no deity or afterlife.

Christians are very proud of themselves when God seems to answer their prayers. God ask the Christians whose prayers never get answered. They will tell you a whole different story.

It's like gamblers who tell of their winnings but never discuss their losses.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 12:45:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am curious, are there any people who claim to be one true God believes and would grant me that I make a valid point here ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 2:09:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'd like to get a response.

Especially from those who insist that they have the right God and right beliefs and it's everyone else is wrong. Cause as I am arguing here, your so called true God can't be shown to get better results than the other guys so called false God.

Where have all such people gone ? have they suddenly all gone quite ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 8:24:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 11:09:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
What I have in mind is people who pray to a God to cure them of some ill health condition.

There are heaps of people who will testify that they prayed to God, and God responded to that prayer by healing them. From that itchy spot on the back of your next to stage 4 lung cancer and everything in between.

But here is the problem, if you give me say 1 billion people and we pray to the sun, and say pray over many different things over a 10 year period, as a matter of probability we are going to get alot of hits. That is to say outcomes which could be seen as answered pray from the sun.

Some people may even think this constitutes good reason to believe in the healing power of the sun..........it doesn't, it's just confirmation bias.

If you believe in the so called one true God and the rest are false (and thus such believers are in error), how come your one true God has not being shown to be any more effective at such prays than say any other so called false God ?

How comes it has not being shown that praying to one particular God or in a particular way or with particular conditions met has being shown any more effective than praying to the sun or a so called false God or the flying spaghetti monster ?

Does it bother you to anyone who believes they believe in the one true God that you so called God has not being shown to produce any better results than praying to a false God ?

Do you even care about such matters ?

Oh those prayers will work for those who have faith, but not yet, not in this system of things.

They will be brought in for all those who have shown the desire to be there, after Armageddon.

For God to answer that prayer for one, he would have to answer it for all, and the time for that is not yet with us. Hence even his willing servants have to suffer at present.

The problem is that as long as we have the sin inherited from Adam in our bodies, sickness and death will always prevail.

However after Armageddon, when the dead are resurrected, they will be raised again in sin-free bodies and therefore will not grow sick and die as long as they remain faithful, as was the option open to Adam and Eve had they not rejected it.

Jesus showed the link between sin and physical problems when he cured the Paralytic simply by saying "your sins are forgiven".

The problem of inherited, Adamic Sin, is one that many deny, but it is inescapable as we are all born with it, in the same way that anything cast from a flawed mould will always carry the same flaw. It is, at present, buried deep in our DNA, so that only God can remove it.

Only prayers that fit within God's will for us will be answered.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 8:26:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 11:09:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
What I have in mind is people who pray to a God to cure them of some ill health condition.

There are heaps of people who will testify that they prayed to God, and God responded to that prayer by healing them. From that itchy spot on the back of your next to stage 4 lung cancer and everything in between.

But here is the problem, if you give me say 1 billion people and we pray to the sun, and say pray over many different things over a 10 year period, as a matter of probability we are going to get alot of hits. That is to say outcomes which could be seen as answered pray from the sun.

Some people may even think this constitutes good reason to believe in the healing power of the sun..........it doesn't, it's just confirmation bias.

If you believe in the so called one true God and the rest are false (and thus such believers are in error), how come your one true God has not being shown to be any more effective at such prays than say any other so called false God ?

How comes it has not being shown that praying to one particular God or in a particular way or with particular conditions met has being shown any more effective than praying to the sun or a so called false God or the flying spaghetti monster ?

Does it bother you to anyone who believes they believe in the one true God that you so called God has not being shown to produce any better results than praying to a false God ?

Do you even care about such matters ?

If prayer really was shown to work then Christians would be jumping like flies on a piece of poop presenting their scientific studies showing as much.

Alas.... That is not the case here.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 8:42:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 8:24:25 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/6/2015 11:09:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
What I have in mind is people who pray to a God to cure them of some ill health condition.

There are heaps of people who will testify that they prayed to God, and God responded to that prayer by healing them. From that itchy spot on the back of your next to stage 4 lung cancer and everything in between.

But here is the problem, if you give me say 1 billion people and we pray to the sun, and say pray over many different things over a 10 year period, as a matter of probability we are going to get alot of hits. That is to say outcomes which could be seen as answered pray from the sun.

Some people may even think this constitutes good reason to believe in the healing power of the sun..........it doesn't, it's just confirmation bias.

If you believe in the so called one true God and the rest are false (and thus such believers are in error), how come your one true God has not being shown to be any more effective at such prays than say any other so called false God ?

How comes it has not being shown that praying to one particular God or in a particular way or with particular conditions met has being shown any more effective than praying to the sun or a so called false God or the flying spaghetti monster ?

Does it bother you to anyone who believes they believe in the one true God that you so called God has not being shown to produce any better results than praying to a false God ?

Do you even care about such matters ?

Oh those prayers will work for those who have faith, but not yet, not in this system of things.

They will be brought in for all those who have shown the desire to be there, after Armageddon.

For God to answer that prayer for one, he would have to answer it for all, and the time for that is not yet with us. Hence even his willing servants have to suffer at present.

The problem is that as long as we have the sin inherited from Adam in our bodies, sickness and death will always prevail.

However after Armageddon, when the dead are resurrected, they will be raised again in sin-free bodies and therefore will not grow sick and die as long as they remain faithful, as was the option open to Adam and Eve had they not rejected it.

Jesus showed the link between sin and physical problems when he cured the Paralytic simply by saying "your sins are forgiven".

The problem of inherited, Adamic Sin, is one that many deny, but it is inescapable as we are all born with it, in the same way that anything cast from a flawed mould will always carry the same flaw. It is, at present, buried deep in our DNA, so that only God can remove it.

Only prayers that fit within God's will for us will be answered.

You do realize that is the kind of thing that would be used to justify the non effectiveness of such pray right ?

You do realize any and all Gods can be prayed to, and with confirmation bias and such excuse making keep people in that belief even in light of the lack of evidence that their God actually makes a difference.

So what I would like to see from you is if you acknowledge that praying to what ever God you believe in has not being shown to be more effective than say praying to what ever you would call a false God or the sun.

You want to acknowledge that is the case ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 8:59:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Only prayers that fit within God's will for us will be answered.

What a cop out! Some will make excuses for the deity whatever it does!
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 9:03:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 8:42:34 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 3/9/2015 8:24:25 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/6/2015 11:09:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
What I have in mind is people who pray to a God to cure them of some ill health condition.

There are heaps of people who will testify that they prayed to God, and God responded to that prayer by healing them. From that itchy spot on the back of your next to stage 4 lung cancer and everything in between.

But here is the problem, if you give me say 1 billion people and we pray to the sun, and say pray over many different things over a 10 year period, as a matter of probability we are going to get alot of hits. That is to say outcomes which could be seen as answered pray from the sun.

Some people may even think this constitutes good reason to believe in the healing power of the sun..........it doesn't, it's just confirmation bias.

If you believe in the so called one true God and the rest are false (and thus such believers are in error), how come your one true God has not being shown to be any more effective at such prays than say any other so called false God ?

How comes it has not being shown that praying to one particular God or in a particular way or with particular conditions met has being shown any more effective than praying to the sun or a so called false God or the flying spaghetti monster ?

Does it bother you to anyone who believes they believe in the one true God that you so called God has not being shown to produce any better results than praying to a false God ?

Do you even care about such matters ?

Oh those prayers will work for those who have faith, but not yet, not in this system of things.

They will be brought in for all those who have shown the desire to be there, after Armageddon.

For God to answer that prayer for one, he would have to answer it for all, and the time for that is not yet with us. Hence even his willing servants have to suffer at present.

The problem is that as long as we have the sin inherited from Adam in our bodies, sickness and death will always prevail.

However after Armageddon, when the dead are resurrected, they will be raised again in sin-free bodies and therefore will not grow sick and die as long as they remain faithful, as was the option open to Adam and Eve had they not rejected it.

Jesus showed the link between sin and physical problems when he cured the Paralytic simply by saying "your sins are forgiven".

The problem of inherited, Adamic Sin, is one that many deny, but it is inescapable as we are all born with it, in the same way that anything cast from a flawed mould will always carry the same flaw. It is, at present, buried deep in our DNA, so that only God can remove it.

Only prayers that fit within God's will for us will be answered.

You do realize that is the kind of thing that would be used to justify the non effectiveness of such pray right ?

Not in my eyes or in God's., only in the eyes of those who want things their way not God's.

In fact if you don't pray for such things when it is God's will to provide them , he might just think you don't really want them.


You do realize any and all Gods can be prayed to, and with confirmation bias and such excuse making keep people in that belief even in light of the lack of evidence that their God actually makes a difference.

I have plenty of evidence that prayers to my God make a difference, but I doubt you would accept it. Prayer is a personal thing, and so is the evidence that it works.

God always answers your prayers, if you pray to the right God anyway, sometimes the answer is no, sometimes you have to wait for the answer, pray for the wrong things or the wrong people and he isn't even listening.

Jesus left us a pattern of the sort of thing we can pray for, but most of all the one prayer his servants always get answered is a prayer for strength to put up with things as they are until it is his time to change them.


So what I would like to see from you is if you acknowledge that praying to what ever God you believe in has not being shown to be more effective than say praying to what ever you would call a false God or the sun.

You want to acknowledge that is the case ?

No, I do not, and cannot, because I know my prayers to the God I serve are always answered, as and when it fits within his will to do so. Sometimes immediately, sometimes later, but he has never let me down yet, nor will he ever, despite the fact that I have let him down too many times.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 9:06:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 8:59:33 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Only prayers that fit within God's will for us will be answered.

What a cop out! Some will make excuses for the deity whatever it does!

I am not surprised you see it that way since you have no real desire for truth and only for excuses not to believe.

However, it is your refusal to believe that is the real "cop out" and those who take it will also lose out.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 9:08:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 9:06:05 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/9/2015 8:59:33 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Only prayers that fit within God's will for us will be answered.

What a cop out! Some will make excuses for the deity whatever it does!

I am not surprised you see it that way since you have no real desire for truth and only for excuses not to believe.

However, it is your refusal to believe that is the real "cop out" and those who take it will also lose out.

You talk through the seat of your pants. You make assumptions about a deity you can't even prove exists, let alone its nature!
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 9:14:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 9:08:15 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 9:06:05 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/9/2015 8:59:33 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Only prayers that fit within God's will for us will be answered.

What a cop out! Some will make excuses for the deity whatever it does!

I am not surprised you see it that way since you have no real desire for truth and only for excuses not to believe.

However, it is your refusal to believe that is the real "cop out" and those who take it will also lose out.

You talk through the seat of your pants. You make assumptions about a deity you can't even prove exists, let alone its nature!

I can and have proved it. It is not my fault you, and those like you, refuse to accept the evidence because you are scared stiff of the truth.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 9:20:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 9:03:36 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/9/2015 8:42:34 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 3/9/2015 8:24:25 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/6/2015 11:09:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
What I have in mind is people who pray to a God to cure them of some ill health condition.

There are heaps of people who will testify that they prayed to God, and God responded to that prayer by healing them. From that itchy spot on the back of your next to stage 4 lung cancer and everything in between.

But here is the problem, if you give me say 1 billion people and we pray to the sun, and say pray over many different things over a 10 year period, as a matter of probability we are going to get alot of hits. That is to say outcomes which could be seen as answered pray from the sun.

Some people may even think this constitutes good reason to believe in the healing power of the sun..........it doesn't, it's just confirmation bias.

If you believe in the so called one true God and the rest are false (and thus such believers are in error), how come your one true God has not being shown to be any more effective at such prays than say any other so called false God ?

How comes it has not being shown that praying to one particular God or in a particular way or with particular conditions met has being shown any more effective than praying to the sun or a so called false God or the flying spaghetti monster ?

Does it bother you to anyone who believes they believe in the one true God that you so called God has not being shown to produce any better results than praying to a false God ?

Do you even care about such matters ?

Oh those prayers will work for those who have faith, but not yet, not in this system of things.

They will be brought in for all those who have shown the desire to be there, after Armageddon.

For God to answer that prayer for one, he would have to answer it for all, and the time for that is not yet with us. Hence even his willing servants have to suffer at present.

The problem is that as long as we have the sin inherited from Adam in our bodies, sickness and death will always prevail.

However after Armageddon, when the dead are resurrected, they will be raised again in sin-free bodies and therefore will not grow sick and die as long as they remain faithful, as was the option open to Adam and Eve had they not rejected it.

Jesus showed the link between sin and physical problems when he cured the Paralytic simply by saying "your sins are forgiven".

The problem of inherited, Adamic Sin, is one that many deny, but it is inescapable as we are all born with it, in the same way that anything cast from a flawed mould will always carry the same flaw. It is, at present, buried deep in our DNA, so that only God can remove it.

Only prayers that fit within God's will for us will be answered.

You do realize that is the kind of thing that would be used to justify the non effectiveness of such pray right ?

Not in my eyes or in God's., only in the eyes of those who want things their way not God's.

In fact if you don't pray for such things when it is God's will to provide them , he might just think you don't really want them.


You do realize any and all Gods can be prayed to, and with confirmation bias and such excuse making keep people in that belief even in light of the lack of evidence that their God actually makes a difference.

I have plenty of evidence that prayers to my God make a difference, but I doubt you would accept it. Prayer is a personal thing, and so is the evidence that it works.

God always answers your prayers, if you pray to the right God anyway, sometimes the answer is no, sometimes you have to wait for the answer, pray for the wrong things or the wrong people and he isn't even listening.

Jesus left us a pattern of the sort of thing we can pray for, but most of all the one prayer his servants always get answered is a prayer for strength to put up with things as they are until it is his time to change them.


So what I would like to see from you is if you acknowledge that praying to what ever God you believe in has not being shown to be more effective than say praying to what ever you would call a false God or the sun.

You want to acknowledge that is the case ?

No, I do not, and cannot, because I know my prayers to the God I serve are always answered, as and when it fits within his will to do so. Sometimes immediately, sometimes later, but he has never let me down yet, nor will he ever, despite the fact that I have let him down too many times.

Every single person who has believed in every God ever could use the exact line of thinking to justify their belief.

Every single Muslim could use the exact same line of reasoning.

Every single catholic could use the exact same line of reasoning

Either we honestly present the state of the evidence or we don't.

So once again I demand of you in honesty. What ever God you have being shown to believe in (factoring in confirmation bias) has not being shown to be more effective than praying to any other God.

YOu have answered pray ? no sh*t, so does every God believer in any God. Thats how confirmation bias works.

So again Corn, you want to at least acknowledge that what ever God you believe in has not being shown to be more effective than praying to the sun or any other God ? (factoring in confirmation bias)
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 9:36:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/6/2015 11:09:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
What I have in mind is people who pray to a God to cure them of some ill health condition.

There are heaps of people who will testify that they prayed to God, and God responded to that prayer by healing them. From that itchy spot on the back of your next to stage 4 lung cancer and everything in between.

But here is the problem, if you give me say 1 billion people and we pray to the sun, and say pray over many different things over a 10 year period, as a matter of probability we are going to get alot of hits. That is to say outcomes which could be seen as answered pray from the sun.

Some people may even think this constitutes good reason to believe in the healing power of the sun..........it doesn't, it's just confirmation bias.

If you believe in the so called one true God and the rest are false (and thus such believers are in error), how come your one true God has not being shown to be any more effective at such prays than say any other so called false God ?

How comes it has not being shown that praying to one particular God or in a particular way or with particular conditions met has being shown any more effective than praying to the sun or a so called false God or the flying spaghetti monster ?

Does it bother you to anyone who believes they believe in the one true God that you so called God has not being shown to produce any better results than praying to a false God ?

Do you even care about such matters ?

There are sweeping assertions here that need to be addressed....
First, who and what are all these "false gods" and "heaps of people" who testify to any healing from the sun god or another god??? Also you need some source of comparison, you should have statistics that support your assertion that shows more "prayers" being answered by some other God other than the Biblical one.

We need to see a supporting list or some examples of all these so-called gods that heal and answer prayers.

Next your knowledge of scripture is very limited, as I can show you in multiple places where a persons prayer or request would not be answered. Scripture absolutely teaches prayer could be considered, however it's not a magic button or some universal cure, that is because it is based upon principle and not just whims. In other words the scripture does not teach that ALL prayers will work, meaning even if we study statistics on prayer it would reveal the same thing whether God exists or not, because all prayers will not be answered.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 9:45:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 9:36:19 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/6/2015 11:09:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
What I have in mind is people who pray to a God to cure them of some ill health condition.

There are heaps of people who will testify that they prayed to God, and God responded to that prayer by healing them. From that itchy spot on the back of your next to stage 4 lung cancer and everything in between.

But here is the problem, if you give me say 1 billion people and we pray to the sun, and say pray over many different things over a 10 year period, as a matter of probability we are going to get alot of hits. That is to say outcomes which could be seen as answered pray from the sun.

Some people may even think this constitutes good reason to believe in the healing power of the sun..........it doesn't, it's just confirmation bias.

If you believe in the so called one true God and the rest are false (and thus such believers are in error), how come your one true God has not being shown to be any more effective at such prays than say any other so called false God ?

How comes it has not being shown that praying to one particular God or in a particular way or with particular conditions met has being shown any more effective than praying to the sun or a so called false God or the flying spaghetti monster ?

Does it bother you to anyone who believes they believe in the one true God that you so called God has not being shown to produce any better results than praying to a false God ?

Do you even care about such matters ?

There are sweeping assertions here that need to be addressed....
First, who and what are all these "false gods" and "heaps of people" who testify to any healing from the sun god or another god??? Also you need some source of comparison, you should have statistics that support your assertion that shows more "prayers" being answered by some other God other than the Biblical one.


We need to see a supporting list or some examples of all these so-called gods that heal and answer prayers.

Next your knowledge of scripture is very limited, as I can show you in multiple places where a persons prayer or request would not be answered. Scripture absolutely teaches prayer could be considered, however it's not a magic button or some universal cure, that is because it is based upon principle and not just whims. In other words the scripture does not teach that ALL prayers will work, meaning even if we study statistics on prayer it would reveal the same thing whether God exists or not, because all prayers will not be answered.

You don't have to show that all prayers get answered to justify the position that prayer to God or a God or anything works.

I think your in the same boat as mad corn. There is a simple fact you don't want to acknowledge. That praying to God or the God you believe in has not being shown to be any more effective than well............praying to the sun, praying to another God or not praying at all.

Don't make me lecture you on confirmation bias.

I am getting sick of people who just want to skip that bit and go straight into well excuse mode.

All I ask is this, if you believe in God it has not being shown that praying to your God is any more effective than praying to some one eles God that you at least admit it.

So how about it, you want to admit that ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 12:11:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 9:45:21 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 3/9/2015 9:36:19 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/6/2015 11:09:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
What I have in mind is people who pray to a God to cure them of some ill health condition.

There are heaps of people who will testify that they prayed to God, and God responded to that prayer by healing them. From that itchy spot on the back of your next to stage 4 lung cancer and everything in between.

But here is the problem, if you give me say 1 billion people and we pray to the sun, and say pray over many different things over a 10 year period, as a matter of probability we are going to get alot of hits. That is to say outcomes which could be seen as answered pray from the sun.

Some people may even think this constitutes good reason to believe in the healing power of the sun..........it doesn't, it's just confirmation bias.

If you believe in the so called one true God and the rest are false (and thus such believers are in error), how come your one true God has not being shown to be any more effective at such prays than say any other so called false God ?

How comes it has not being shown that praying to one particular God or in a particular way or with particular conditions met has being shown any more effective than praying to the sun or a so called false God or the flying spaghetti monster ?

Does it bother you to anyone who believes they believe in the one true God that you so called God has not being shown to produce any better results than praying to a false God ?

Do you even care about such matters ?

There are sweeping assertions here that need to be addressed....
First, who and what are all these "false gods" and "heaps of people" who testify to any healing from the sun god or another god??? Also you need some source of comparison, you should have statistics that support your assertion that shows more "prayers" being answered by some other God other than the Biblical one.


We need to see a supporting list or some examples of all these so-called gods that heal and answer prayers.

Next your knowledge of scripture is very limited, as I can show you in multiple places where a persons prayer or request would not be answered. Scripture absolutely teaches prayer could be considered, however it's not a magic button or some universal cure, that is because it is based upon principle and not just whims. In other words the scripture does not teach that ALL prayers will work, meaning even if we study statistics on prayer it would reveal the same thing whether God exists or not, because all prayers will not be answered.

You don't have to show that all prayers get answered to justify the position that prayer to God or a God or anything works.

Why?

I think your in the same boat as mad corn. There is a simple fact you don't want to acknowledge. That praying to God or the God you believe in has not being shown to be any more effective than well............praying to the sun, praying to another God or not praying at all.

No I'm not in the same boat as MCB, and I acknowledge exactly what I said and you have yet to give me reason to believe anything you said here :)

Don't make me lecture you on confirmation bias.

No need as I have hear it a million times, something new you want to add?

I am getting sick of people who just want to skip that bit and go straight into well excuse mode.

And I'm getting sick of all the assertions with zero facts because Atheists like to believe that their assertions mean truth when in fact they are assertions. I'm also getting sick of people telling me I've done something when I have not, care to tell me where the "excuses" are?

All I ask is this, if you believe in God it has not being shown that praying to your God is any more effective than praying to some one eles God that you at least admit it.

So how about it, you want to admit that ?

Nope, you have yet to show a single example of any of this crap, on top of that I want to see you support the notion that there are other "gods" that answer prayer or heal, or any testimonies of all these false gods that do anything.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 1:11:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"Confirmation bias" my friend is what Atheists drum up in hopes to answer difficult questions while filtering everything through a material mindset, it's another way of saying "hey, I'm too lazy to look into something fairly as well as being supported by evidence I've seen with my own eyes so I will just repeat what other Atheists say because it sounds true" lol.

So here is what you need to even come close to supporting any of this or having some intellectual integrity....

First you need some testimonies that give witness to all these prayers and healings that you believe exist, then you need to cross reference that testimony to some religious teaching or belief to prove such a deity would provide. After your done with all that you need to search books and testimonies by the HUNDREDS and begin your statistics on which "god" is showing up and if there are any of which that stand up to the next.
Then if you are really honest you need to confirm that any one witness was in fact confirming a "bias" and have some kind of evidence to suggest it at all.

The next thing you need to realize is that any spiritual act is unseen in a material sense, only the one who recognizes it as such can have that revelation, and no, they don't "need" to be recognized by masses or the media, that is not the point of them, spiritual encounters are most always personal unless there is a purpose otherwise.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 2:51:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 1:11:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
"Confirmation bias" my friend is what Atheists drum up in hopes to answer difficult questions while filtering everything through a material mindset, it's another way of saying "hey, I'm too lazy to look into something fairly as well as being supported by evidence I've seen with my own eyes so I will just repeat what other Atheists say because it sounds true" lol.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed that, lol.

Confirmation Bias is a catch-all term which applies every bit as much to what they believe as to what Theists do, lol.


So here is what you need to even come close to supporting any of this or having some intellectual integrity....

First you need some testimonies that give witness to all these prayers and healings that you believe exist, then you need to cross reference that testimony to some religious teaching or belief to prove such a deity would provide. After your done with all that you need to search books and testimonies by the HUNDREDS and begin your statistics on which "god" is showing up and if there are any of which that stand up to the next.
Then if you are really honest you need to confirm that any one witness was in fact confirming a "bias" and have some kind of evidence to suggest it at all.

The next thing you need to realize is that any spiritual act is unseen in a material sense, only the one who recognizes it as such can have that revelation, and no, they don't "need" to be recognized by masses or the media, that is not the point of them, spiritual encounters are most always personal unless there is a purpose otherwise.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 4:06:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 1:11:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
"Confirmation bias" my friend is what Atheists drum up in hopes to answer difficult questions while filtering everything through a material mindset, it's another way of saying "hey, I'm too lazy to look into something fairly as well as being supported by evidence I've seen with my own eyes so I will just repeat what other Atheists say because it sounds true" lol.

Right. Because no one wins the lottery. Wounds never heal. The only way they do, is when people pray.

So here is what you need to even come close to supporting any of this or having some intellectual integrity....

First you need some testimonies that give witness to all these prayers and healings that you believe exist, then you need to cross reference that testimony to some religious teaching or belief to prove such a deity would provide. After your done with all that you need to search books and testimonies by the HUNDREDS and begin your statistics on which "god" is showing up and if there are any of which that stand up to the next.
Then if you are really honest you need to confirm that any one witness was in fact confirming a "bias" and have some kind of evidence to suggest it at all.

The next thing you need to realize is that any spiritual act is unseen in a material sense, only the one who recognizes it as such can have that revelation, and no, they don't "need" to be recognized by masses or the media, that is not the point of them, spiritual encounters are most always personal unless there is a purpose otherwise.

Studies on prayer have been done already. The largest, most thorough prayer study, the STEP project, failed to produce any results beyond that of random chance.

So yes, the studies, the evidence has been collected, and prayer doesnt work.

But hey, atleast they make you feel good.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 4:09:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 2:51:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:11:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
"Confirmation bias" my friend is what Atheists drum up in hopes to answer difficult questions while filtering everything through a material mindset, it's another way of saying "hey, I'm too lazy to look into something fairly as well as being supported by evidence I've seen with my own eyes so I will just repeat what other Atheists say because it sounds true" lol.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed that, lol.

Confirmation Bias is a catch-all term which applies every bit as much to what they believe as to what Theists do, lol.

Yeah, because we humans never interpret things to fit our own worldview. Christians have never read and interpreted the bible to suit their own means. Confirmation bias doesnt exist, its all a fake.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 4:17:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 8:24:25 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/6/2015 11:09:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
What I have in mind is people who pray to a God to cure them of some ill health condition.

There are heaps of people who will testify that they prayed to God, and God responded to that prayer by healing them. From that itchy spot on the back of your next to stage 4 lung cancer and everything in between.

But here is the problem, if you give me say 1 billion people and we pray to the sun, and say pray over many different things over a 10 year period, as a matter of probability we are going to get alot of hits. That is to say outcomes which could be seen as answered pray from the sun.

Some people may even think this constitutes good reason to believe in the healing power of the sun..........it doesn't, it's just confirmation bias.

If you believe in the so called one true God and the rest are false (and thus such believers are in error), how come your one true God has not being shown to be any more effective at such prays than say any other so called false God ?

How comes it has not being shown that praying to one particular God or in a particular way or with particular conditions met has being shown any more effective than praying to the sun or a so called false God or the flying spaghetti monster ?

Does it bother you to anyone who believes they believe in the one true God that you so called God has not being shown to produce any better results than praying to a false God ?

Do you even care about such matters ?

Oh those prayers will work for those who have faith, but not yet, not in this system of things.

They will be brought in for all those who have shown the desire to be there, after Armageddon.

For God to answer that prayer for one, he would have to answer it for all, and the time for that is not yet with us. Hence even his willing servants have to suffer at present.

The problem is that as long as we have the sin inherited from Adam in our bodies, sickness and death will always prevail.

However after Armageddon, when the dead are resurrected, they will be raised again in sin-free bodies and therefore will not grow sick and die as long as they remain faithful, as was the option open to Adam and Eve had they not rejected it.

Jesus showed the link between sin and physical problems when he cured the Paralytic simply by saying "your sins are forgiven".

The problem of inherited, Adamic Sin, is one that many deny, but it is inescapable as we are all born with it, in the same way that anything cast from a flawed mould will always carry the same flaw. It is, at present, buried deep in our DNA, so that only God can remove it.

Only prayers that fit within God's will for us will be answered.

So youre saying that dieseases and wounds never heal naturally, without Gods help?
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 4:22:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 1:11:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
"Confirmation bias" my friend is what Atheists drum up in hopes to answer difficult questions while filtering everything through a material mindset, it's another way of saying "hey, I'm too lazy to look into something fairly as well as being supported by evidence I've seen with my own eyes so I will just repeat what other Atheists say because it sounds true" lol.

So here is what you need to even come close to supporting any of this or having some intellectual integrity....

First you need some testimonies that give witness to all these prayers and healings that you believe exist, then you need to cross reference that testimony to some religious teaching or belief to prove such a deity would provide. After your done with all that you need to search books and testimonies by the HUNDREDS and begin your statistics on which "god" is showing up and if there are any of which that stand up to the next.
Then if you are really honest you need to confirm that any one witness was in fact confirming a "bias" and have some kind of evidence to suggest it at all.

The next thing you need to realize is that any spiritual act is unseen in a material sense, only the one who recognizes it as such can have that revelation, and no, they don't "need" to be recognized by masses or the media, that is not the point of them, spiritual encounters are most always personal unless there is a purpose otherwise.

So, no one can see it unless they already believe it happens. Gotcha. Only the already deluded need apply.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 5:23:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 4:17:17 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 3/9/2015 8:24:25 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/6/2015 11:09:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
What I have in mind is people who pray to a God to cure them of some ill health condition.

There are heaps of people who will testify that they prayed to God, and God responded to that prayer by healing them. From that itchy spot on the back of your next to stage 4 lung cancer and everything in between.

But here is the problem, if you give me say 1 billion people and we pray to the sun, and say pray over many different things over a 10 year period, as a matter of probability we are going to get alot of hits. That is to say outcomes which could be seen as answered pray from the sun.

Some people may even think this constitutes good reason to believe in the healing power of the sun..........it doesn't, it's just confirmation bias.

If you believe in the so called one true God and the rest are false (and thus such believers are in error), how come your one true God has not being shown to be any more effective at such prays than say any other so called false God ?

How comes it has not being shown that praying to one particular God or in a particular way or with particular conditions met has being shown any more effective than praying to the sun or a so called false God or the flying spaghetti monster ?

Does it bother you to anyone who believes they believe in the one true God that you so called God has not being shown to produce any better results than praying to a false God ?

Do you even care about such matters ?

Oh those prayers will work for those who have faith, but not yet, not in this system of things.

They will be brought in for all those who have shown the desire to be there, after Armageddon.

For God to answer that prayer for one, he would have to answer it for all, and the time for that is not yet with us. Hence even his willing servants have to suffer at present.

The problem is that as long as we have the sin inherited from Adam in our bodies, sickness and death will always prevail.

However after Armageddon, when the dead are resurrected, they will be raised again in sin-free bodies and therefore will not grow sick and die as long as they remain faithful, as was the option open to Adam and Eve had they not rejected it.

Jesus showed the link between sin and physical problems when he cured the Paralytic simply by saying "your sins are forgiven".

The problem of inherited, Adamic Sin, is one that many deny, but it is inescapable as we are all born with it, in the same way that anything cast from a flawed mould will always carry the same flaw. It is, at present, buried deep in our DNA, so that only God can remove it.

Only prayers that fit within God's will for us will be answered.

So youre saying that diseases and wounds never heal naturally, without Gods help?

If they heal at all they heal without God's intervention, whether or not you calls that as without is help or not is up to you, however I do not.

However he will not do for one what he cannot do for all, and as long as he is tolerating the wicked in this world he has to treat them the same as his followers.

Therefore the only healing and recovery we get is what he has long ago built in to our systems and allowed to remain after Adam sinned.

He makes no intervention in anyone's cases at present.

Sickness and death are the lot of all humans alike, and God shows no favouritism.

Anything else is down to genetics, diet and lifestyle.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 5:28:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 4:09:55 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 3/9/2015 2:51:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:11:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
"Confirmation bias" my friend is what Atheists drum up in hopes to answer difficult questions while filtering everything through a material mindset, it's another way of saying "hey, I'm too lazy to look into something fairly as well as being supported by evidence I've seen with my own eyes so I will just repeat what other Atheists say because it sounds true" lol.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed that, lol.

Confirmation Bias is a catch-all term which applies every bit as much to what they believe as to what Theists do, lol.

Yeah, because we humans never interpret things to fit our own worldview. Christians have never read and interpreted the bible to suit their own means. Confirmation bias doesn't exist, its all a fake.

Oh the vast majority do unfortunately, or simply allow themselves to be led along by the ears.

That's not confirmation bias, simply either bias or gullibility, the latter in the case of most Theists and Atheists.

Some of us seek only God's view of things, because his is the only one that matters, and whilst that is still a form of bias, it is a bias purely towards truth, whether we like it or not.

Truth is rarely what we want it to be, and not always comfortable at first.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/9/2015 5:29:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 5:28:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/9/2015 4:09:55 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 3/9/2015 2:51:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:11:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
"Confirmation bias" my friend is what Atheists drum up in hopes to answer difficult questions while filtering everything through a material mindset, it's another way of saying "hey, I'm too lazy to look into something fairly as well as being supported by evidence I've seen with my own eyes so I will just repeat what other Atheists say because it sounds true" lol.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed that, lol.

Confirmation Bias is a catch-all term which applies every bit as much to what they believe as to what Theists do, lol.

Yeah, because we humans never interpret things to fit our own worldview. Christians have never read and interpreted the bible to suit their own means. Confirmation bias doesn't exist, its all a fake.

Oh the vast majority do unfortunately, or simply allow themselves to be led along by the ears.

That's not confirmation bias, simply either bias or gullibility, the latter in the case of most Theists and Atheists.

Some of us seek only God's view of things, because his is the only one that matters, and whilst that is still a form of bias, it is a bias purely towards truth, whether we like it or not.

Truth is rarely what we want it to be, and not always comfortable at first.

Thats exactly what the definition of Confirmation bias, is.