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Morality and Cloning

ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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3/7/2015 9:33:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I just saw an interesting video on this topic because I've always wondered about cloning. But now the video provided me some thoughts that actually make me change my mind about cloning and how I no longer wish to clone myself nor want anybody I know to be cloned. What are y'alls thoughts on cloning? Is it good or bad?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/7/2015 9:35:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/7/2015 9:33:17 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I just saw an interesting video on this topic because I've always wondered about cloning. But now the video provided me some thoughts that actually make me change my mind about cloning and how I no longer wish to clone myself nor want anybody I know to be cloned. What are y'alls thoughts on cloning? Is it good or bad?



Whatever God has prepared for man to thinketh, so be it.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,130
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3/8/2015 12:07:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/7/2015 9:33:17 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I just saw an interesting video on this topic because I've always wondered about cloning. But now the video provided me some thoughts that actually make me change my mind about cloning and how I no longer wish to clone myself nor want anybody I know to be cloned. What are y'alls thoughts on cloning? Is it good or bad?


Interesting topic, CP. I personally don't have a problem with it, but I can see how there could be Pro's and Con's though. It could be helpful for sterile couples and homosexual partners in order to produce offspring without surrogates or adoption. On the other hand, if cloning became widespread it could reduce our genetic diversity and make us more susceptible to disease or environmental changes.
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RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/8/2015 6:19:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/7/2015 9:33:17 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I no longer wish to clone myself nor want anybody I know to be cloned. What are y'alls thoughts on cloning? Is it good or bad?

Good or bad, it will be very easy to do soon, CP. But genetic similarity is not social or psychological identity, and epigenetics mean that it may not even be physiological identity either. (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

I would not think of cloning as duplicating a person: you're creating a new organism from another's DNA. If that organism grows through gestation it can become a new person with genetic resemblances to some other, but so what? We have no problems accommodating twins; we could easily accommodate clones -- if the clone is seen as a person.

But what if the clone isn't treated as a person? For example, what if it were allowed to grow to adulthood for organ-harvesting and transplant, yet its brain development were retarded so it was never conscious?

I think the key issue isn't whether this could happen, nor whether it should. It's when and where it shall.

Unquestionably, there are moral issues associated with these technologies, but the policy issues will surely be even more complex.

Thank you for the thread, CP.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,235
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3/8/2015 6:39:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 6:19:28 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 3/7/2015 9:33:17 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I no longer wish to clone myself nor want anybody I know to be cloned. What are y'alls thoughts on cloning? Is it good or bad?

Good or bad, it will be very easy to do soon, CP. But genetic similarity is not social or psychological identity, and epigenetics mean that it may not even be physiological identity either. (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

I would not think of cloning as duplicating a person: you're creating a new organism from another's DNA. If that organism grows through gestation it can become a new person with genetic resemblances to some other, but so what? We have no problems accommodating twins; we could easily accommodate clones -- if the clone is seen as a person.

But what if the clone isn't treated as a person? For example, what if it were allowed to grow to adulthood for organ-harvesting and transplant, yet its brain development were retarded so it was never conscious?

I think the key issue isn't whether this could happen, nor whether it should. It's when and where it shall.

Unquestionably, there are moral issues associated with these technologies, but the policy issues will surely be even more complex.

Thank you for the thread, CP.

Not to seem sycophantic, but.. Rub sort of brings up some fundamental realities regarding cloning and the self. We can model a genetic type, but as I mentioned in a previous thread, that just gives you a GREAT model to what such a birth might create.

For referential purposes, "clone" (as we understand it now) and genetic identical twin are not empirically the same at the "end user" appreciation. We, at some point in time are going to have to understand the "mind", that thing that is different between all of us, yet some how while being the same hard ware can make different firm ware.
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JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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3/8/2015 7:20:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think it would the sort of people you wouldn't want replicated who might wish to be cloned, like Hitler and those of his ilk!

As for me, I am a one off, or so my family tell me, and the mould was broken when I put in an appearance, lol!
vampiress
Posts: 26
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3/8/2015 8:26:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think it's always been an issue with ethics. The general consensus is that cloning could definitely be of aid to humanity such as to help those incapable of reproducing, and greatly contributes to scientific research.
I personally wouldn't mind cloning myself because of reasons I will not specify, but I can see why society in general would be uncomfortable about it. To artificially create life defies a lot of religious morals and consent is a problem.
Otokage
Posts: 2,351
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3/8/2015 9:09:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/7/2015 9:33:17 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I just saw an interesting video on this topic because I've always wondered about cloning. But now the video provided me some thoughts that actually make me change my mind about cloning and how I no longer wish to clone myself nor want anybody I know to be cloned. What are y'alls thoughts on cloning? Is it good or bad?



Interesting video. But as someone has already said, monozygotic twins are already clones, and I don't see people questioning the ethics of their existence. So any problems I see with clones, are the same I see with monozygotic twins, which are very little, ie pishing through exams or through a crime.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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3/8/2015 10:47:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 9:09:49 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 3/7/2015 9:33:17 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I just saw an interesting video on this topic because I've always wondered about cloning. But now the video provided me some thoughts that actually make me change my mind about cloning and how I no longer wish to clone myself nor want anybody I know to be cloned. What are y'alls thoughts on cloning? Is it good or bad?



Interesting video. But as someone has already said, monozygotic twins are already clones, and I don't see people questioning the ethics of their existence. So any problems I see with clones, are the same I see with monozygotic twins, which are very little, ie pishing through exams or through a crime.

I'm talking about creating humans from scratch. Like trying to use an adult build a bear.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/8/2015 1:32:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 10:47:48 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:

I'm talking about creating humans from scratch. Like trying to use an adult build a bear.

That's called reproductive cloning, and using current technology, it would produce a blastocyst -- a cluster of embryonic stem cells -- much like some IVF processes. The blastocyst would have to be implanted in a womb, since at the moment there's no sight of a synthetic womb for humans, and the infant would be born the same as an IVF baby. Because of environmental factors, clones born this way might not look identical, as part of the reason monozygotic twins look identical is that they gestate in identical conditions.

So even if you could clone your own stem cells, CP, the new individual wouldn't necessarily even look like your twin, it might not grow like you did, or think like you do. For example, there's some medical evidence to show that statistically in boys, sexual preference depends in part on how many boys the mother previously had -- i.e. on hormonal balances in the womb. So you could potentially have two clones where one finds women more attractive, while another is more attracted to men.

But, they would likely have highly-compatible organs for donation purposes, and are likely to have similar disease resistance and susceptibilities due to heredity. So you could use cloning to produce stem cells to help organ repair (e.g. for a heart attack -- though you'd only need a blastocyst for the cells, not a live birth), or reproductive cloning to harvest whole organs for transplant (e.g. heart transplant, though you'd probably want a fully-grown adult heart) and this might have a high success-rate with fewer complications and reduced need for immunosuppressants. You could also use clones for testing and fine-tuning custom therapies (e.g. cancer treatments.)

But it seems that big problem with human cloning isn't the morality; it's how you enforce any policy at all. If you apply a moratorium on using cloned embryos for stem-cell research, say, researchers can simply take that work off-shore -- or an off-shore team will just do that research anyway. Just as parents can now pay for off-shore surrogate mothers and bypass jurisdictional surrogacy laws, it's hard to see that off-shore reproductive cloning won't be available the same way as techniques become cheaper and more reliable.

At the moment, I understand that the main impediment to human reproductive cloning is technical. Reproductive cloning is very inefficient, since it can take a lot of attempts to get a viable embryo. I think Dolly the sheep took something like 140 attempts. On the other hand, techniques get more reliable as knowledge grows; and the moment there are high value uses for reproductive human cloning, the demand itself will begin to fund the practice.

But there's therapeutic cloning too. For example, if you could grow a whole, healthy adult human heart from stem-cells in a laboratory, then you could produce perfectly compatible organs for therapeutic purposes without having to use reproductive cloning technology. Make it cheap enough, and that would become the standard way to do heart, kidney, liver and lung transplants, say, and produce skin or muscle for plastic surgery.

But there will always be morally concerning uses. For example, like gene sequencing without your permission, cloning your cells without your knowledge could be used to find out things about you that you didn't want known.

To be honest, I think trying to make duplicates of existing people is not really the biggest concern right now. It's all the other things you could do, both good and bad.

I hope this may be useful.