Total Posts:88|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

What was sacrificed in Jesus?

Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
frbnsn
Posts: 353
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 4:43:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?

You are right exactly.
According to the Qur'an, in my opinion as a muslim:

Jesus is not god, just a human.
And everyone is responsible for his/her sin, none can pay for anybody else's sin.
And Jesus has died, gone from here, never would come back.
These are fabricatings remained from primeval rumors.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 4:57:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?

I have a host of Devil's advocate replies to employ, should you desire.

I would be willing to wager they are much more fulfilling than the answer you seek.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 8:35:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 4:57:28 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?

I have a host of Devil's advocate replies to employ, should you desire.

I would be willing to wager they are much more fulfilling than the answer you seek.

Feel free.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Composer
Posts: 5,858
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 8:41:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?

Thought 1-

Exodus 23:7:
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Hence Story book jebus wasn't innocent nor righteous Or bible Story book God is a liar!
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 9:22:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 8:35:10 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 4:57:28 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?

I have a host of Devil's advocate replies to employ, should you desire.

I would be willing to wager they are much more fulfilling than the answer you seek.

Feel free.

Hell. Look, I am an omnipotent creature. I can't fathom what it is to be outside my grace.. but... such a place exists. And as such, I will deliver my perfect being as a balance in death to that imperfect sin. Savy? I will indulge to you my greatest gift.. briefly, so that those and those that follow you might know what I give.

Surely you see that?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 9:46:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 9:22:52 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/8/2015 8:35:10 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 4:57:28 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?

I have a host of Devil's advocate replies to employ, should you desire.

I would be willing to wager they are much more fulfilling than the answer you seek.

Feel free.

Hell. Look, I am an omnipotent creature. I can't fathom what it is to be outside my grace.. but... such a place exists. And as such, I will deliver my perfect being as a balance in death to that imperfect sin. Savy? I will indulge to you my greatest gift.. briefly, so that those and those that follow you might know what I give.

Surely you see that?

As an omniscient omnipotent creature, there is nothing that cannot be fathomed - such as a plan without the need for any place like Hell. If the Christian god were to exist as described, then the existence of Hell would surely be a reflection on his malicious tendencies and overall lack of grace.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 9:54:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 9:46:03 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 9:22:52 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/8/2015 8:35:10 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 4:57:28 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?

I have a host of Devil's advocate replies to employ, should you desire.

I would be willing to wager they are much more fulfilling than the answer you seek.

Feel free.

Hell. Look, I am an omnipotent creature. I can't fathom what it is to be outside my grace.. but... such a place exists. And as such, I will deliver my perfect being as a balance in death to that imperfect sin. Savy? I will indulge to you my greatest gift.. briefly, so that those and those that follow you might know what I give.

Surely you see that?

As an omniscient omnipotent creature, there is nothing that cannot be fathomed - such as a plan without the need for any place like Hell. If the Christian god were to exist as described, then the existence of Hell would surely be a reflection on his malicious tendencies and overall lack of grace.

One would think that, but the sad dichotmy is true. I can understand "Hell", but I don't consider it a rational propostion in light of my offering. Surely, one would prefer Heaven to Hell, and surely, one could appreciate that being the omnipotent and omniscient creature, no matter how obscure, would require a place to put those that defy my will. I don't -want- them to go there, but the only path to that place is exactly what sends them there!
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 10:43:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 9:54:35 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/8/2015 9:46:03 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 9:22:52 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/8/2015 8:35:10 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 4:57:28 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?

I have a host of Devil's advocate replies to employ, should you desire.

I would be willing to wager they are much more fulfilling than the answer you seek.

Feel free.

Hell. Look, I am an omnipotent creature. I can't fathom what it is to be outside my grace.. but... such a place exists. And as such, I will deliver my perfect being as a balance in death to that imperfect sin. Savy? I will indulge to you my greatest gift.. briefly, so that those and those that follow you might know what I give.

Surely you see that?

As an omniscient omnipotent creature, there is nothing that cannot be fathomed - such as a plan without the need for any place like Hell. If the Christian god were to exist as described, then the existence of Hell would surely be a reflection on his malicious tendencies and overall lack of grace.

One would think that, but the sad dichotmy is true. I can understand "Hell", but I don't consider it a rational propostion in light of my offering. Surely, one would prefer Heaven to Hell, and surely, one could appreciate that being the omnipotent and omniscient creature, no matter how obscure, would require a place to put those that defy my will. I don't -want- them to go there, but the only path to that place is exactly what sends them there!

I remain unswayed. Thank you for your input.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,371
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 11:30:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 11:43:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 11:30:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?

No. By analogy, if a Jew had sacrificed a magical lamb that could not die, would it really have been a sacrifice?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,371
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 11:47:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 11:43:02 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:30:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?

No. By analogy, if a Jew had sacrificed a magical lamb that could not die, would it really have been a sacrifice?
Your "By analogy" seems to be a yes.

Are you suggesting that Jesus did not really die?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 11:56:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 11:47:38 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:43:02 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:30:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?

No. By analogy, if a Jew had sacrificed a magical lamb that could not die, would it really have been a sacrifice?
Your "By analogy" seems to be a yes.

Are you suggesting that Jesus did not really die?

Maybe you can tell us... can gods die?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 12:07:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 11:47:38 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:43:02 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:30:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?

No. By analogy, if a Jew had sacrificed a magical lamb that could not die, would it really have been a sacrifice?
Your "By analogy" seems to be a yes.

Are you suggesting that Jesus did not really die?

Well, personally I don't believe he came back to life, but for the sake of argument I have overlooked that. Assuming Jesus was "God" and he is incapable of not existing, then what exactly was sacrificed when he died?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,371
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 12:14:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 11:56:37 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:47:38 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:43:02 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:30:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?

No. By analogy, if a Jew had sacrificed a magical lamb that could not die, would it really have been a sacrifice?
Your "By analogy" seems to be a yes.

Are you suggesting that Jesus did not really die?

Maybe you can tell us... can gods die?
What do you mean by gods?

If you mean mythological gods, I don't think they ever lived let alone died. However, I do think some of the mythological gods (particularly Greek mythology) were created or influenced into creation from actual people who deemed heroes. And of course, if that's the case, those gods would have obviously died as they actually mere humans.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,371
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 12:17:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 12:07:15 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:47:38 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:43:02 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:30:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?

No. By analogy, if a Jew had sacrificed a magical lamb that could not die, would it really have been a sacrifice?
Your "By analogy" seems to be a yes.

Are you suggesting that Jesus did not really die?

Well, personally I don't believe he came back to life, but for the sake of argument I have overlooked that. Assuming Jesus was "God" and he is incapable of not existing, then what exactly was sacrificed when he died?
What exactly is sacrificed when a soldier is killed in combat? In other words, Is the term "He sacrificed his life for his country" a valid term, or just a nice saying to make his acquaintances feel better?
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 12:29:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 12:17:26 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:07:15 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:47:38 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:43:02 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:30:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?

No. By analogy, if a Jew had sacrificed a magical lamb that could not die, would it really have been a sacrifice?
Your "By analogy" seems to be a yes.

Are you suggesting that Jesus did not really die?

Well, personally I don't believe he came back to life, but for the sake of argument I have overlooked that. Assuming Jesus was "God" and he is incapable of not existing, then what exactly was sacrificed when he died?
What exactly is sacrificed when a soldier is killed in combat? In other words, Is the term "He sacrificed his life for his country" a valid term, or just a nice saying to make his acquaintances feel better?

That is a bad comparison. The soldier is mortal and his/her death actually gives up future potential forever. It is not the same for an eternal omnipotent being.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,371
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 12:42:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 12:29:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:17:26 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:07:15 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:47:38 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:43:02 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:30:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?

No. By analogy, if a Jew had sacrificed a magical lamb that could not die, would it really have been a sacrifice?
Your "By analogy" seems to be a yes.

Are you suggesting that Jesus did not really die?

Well, personally I don't believe he came back to life, but for the sake of argument I have overlooked that. Assuming Jesus was "God" and he is incapable of not existing, then what exactly was sacrificed when he died?
What exactly is sacrificed when a soldier is killed in combat? In other words, Is the term "He sacrificed his life for his country" a valid term, or just a nice saying to make his acquaintances feel better?

That is a bad comparison. The soldier is mortal and his/her death actually gives up future potential forever. It is not the same for an eternal omnipotent being.
That's why I was asking the question:

"To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?"

When a soldier is killed in combat, his life was sacrificed. When Jesus died on the Christ, His life was sacrificed. The physical body that He occupied died. The sins of humanity were placed on Jesus, and His death was payment for the sins of humanity. So there's no question that Christ's death was a sacrifice. He willingly went to the cross with the purpose of sacrificing His life.

Yes, Christ resurrected, so his death was not permanent, but that's a different issue. That might be something one could put into the comparison category (which, who's, sacrifice is more honorable, etc.).
12_13
Posts: 1,361
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 12:44:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

Actually I think you don"t understand the concept correctly. The sacrifice itself was not something that was required or wanted or the point. Repentance (or regret) is the point. Person should understand when he has done wrong. And when person understands he has done wrongly, he shows signs of that. Sacrifices could have been sign of regret and if so, it was acceptable sacrifice. So I have understood, but that was not the case usually, because it is also said:

"Sacrifice and offering you didn't desire, "
Hebrews 10:5-9

For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice; And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But they, like Adam, have broken the covenant. They were unfaithful to me, there.
Hosea 6:6-7

Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, because he used his life for us, so that we could get right understanding and become righteous. Animal sacrifices didn"t cause change in persons mind and therefore they were not good and desirable. And unfortunately it seems to me that many Christians make the same mistake than Jews at the time when Jesus was on earth. They believe that the point is "sacrifice", even though the point is to become or to be righteous and not do things that need to be forgiven. The point is not that people go every day to ask forgiveness, but that people don"t do wrong things and don"t need forgiveness every day.
seeu46
Posts: 578
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 12:53:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?

His human nature was sacrificed, not his Father the God nature. And by re-living it give us hope that by believing in him we to can certainly trust and follow him. For if he did not re-live no Christian would have faith in him and turn to other ways.

If you say then it was not a sacrifice since he re-lives. His re-living does not take away his 'human' death. A better question would be is, if Jesus person died and did not re-live, why should anyone have faith in him and follow him as our savior?

I certainly would not believe the things that the OT and NT say but since he did die and rose from the dead, thus I can have faith in him and follow him.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 12:53:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 12:42:28 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:29:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:17:26 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:07:15 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:47:38 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:43:02 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:30:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?

No. By analogy, if a Jew had sacrificed a magical lamb that could not die, would it really have been a sacrifice?
Your "By analogy" seems to be a yes.

Are you suggesting that Jesus did not really die?

Well, personally I don't believe he came back to life, but for the sake of argument I have overlooked that. Assuming Jesus was "God" and he is incapable of not existing, then what exactly was sacrificed when he died?
What exactly is sacrificed when a soldier is killed in combat? In other words, Is the term "He sacrificed his life for his country" a valid term, or just a nice saying to make his acquaintances feel better?

That is a bad comparison. The soldier is mortal and his/her death actually gives up future potential forever. It is not the same for an eternal omnipotent being.
That's why I was asking the question:

"To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?"

When a soldier is killed in combat, his life was sacrificed. When Jesus died on the Christ, His life was sacrificed. The physical body that He occupied died. The sins of humanity were placed on Jesus, and His death was payment for the sins of humanity. So there's no question that Christ's death was a sacrifice. He willingly went to the cross with the purpose of sacrificing His life.

Yes, Christ resurrected, so his death was not permanent, but that's a different issue. That might be something one could put into the comparison category (which, who's, sacrifice is more honorable, etc.).

That's the issue I am interested in. Is it really a sacrifice if part of a being's nature disallows actual death? I don't have any good analogies, but it is like suggesting a human sleeping for others is somehow a sacrifice. Sleep is a temporary state and part of our nature. Except for an omnipotent being this 'sleep' is by choice and unnecessary.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 12:56:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 12:44:12 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

Actually I think you don"t understand the concept correctly. The sacrifice itself was not something that was required or wanted or the point. Repentance (or regret) is the point. Person should understand when he has done wrong. And when person understands he has done wrongly, he shows signs of that. Sacrifices could have been sign of regret and if so, it was acceptable sacrifice. So I have understood, but that was not the case usually, because it is also said:

"Sacrifice and offering you didn't desire, "
Hebrews 10:5-9

For I desire mercy, and not sacrifice; And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But they, like Adam, have broken the covenant. They were unfaithful to me, there.
Hosea 6:6-7

Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, because he used his life for us,

I'm more interested in this concept - What life did Jesus give if he did not cease to be?

so that we could get right understanding and become righteous. Animal sacrifices didn"t cause change in persons mind and therefore they were not good and desirable. And unfortunately it seems to me that many Christians make the same mistake than Jews at the time when Jesus was on earth. They believe that the point is "sacrifice", even though the point is to become or to be righteous and not do things that need to be forgiven. The point is not that people go every day to ask forgiveness, but that people don"t do wrong things and don"t need forgiveness every day.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 1:06:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 12:53:18 PM, seeu46 wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?



His human nature was sacrificed, not his Father the God nature.

If only his human nature was sacrificed, then one human life is hardly a worthy ransom for forgiveness of all humanity's sins past and present.

And by re-living it give us hope that by believing in him we to can certainly trust and follow him. For if he did not re-live no Christian would have faith in him and turn to other ways.

If you say then it was not a sacrifice since he re-lives. His re-living does not take away his 'human' death. A better question would be is, if Jesus person died and did not re-live, why should anyone have faith in him and follow him as our savior?


I certainly would not believe the things that the OT and NT say but since he did die and rose from the dead, thus I can have faith in him and follow him.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
seeu46
Posts: 578
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 1:21:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 1:06:27 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:53:18 PM, seeu46 wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?



His human nature was sacrificed, not his Father the God nature.

If only his human nature was sacrificed, then one human life is hardly a worthy ransom for forgiveness of all humanity's sins past and present.


Worth? What is worthy to you for the price of our salvation? Everyone dies but not everyone's death saves to re-live again but only the holy one sent from God. His worth was most 'greatest' since he is 'perfect' without sin. No other can be that, as this may have zero value to you. But it means everything to me, as it gives me confidence to believe and follow him.

And by re-living it give us hope that by believing in him we to can certainly trust and follow him. For if he did not re-live no Christian would have faith in him and turn to other ways.

If you say then it was not a sacrifice since he re-lives. His re-living does not take away his 'human' death. A better question would be is, if Jesus person died and did not re-live, why should anyone have faith in him and follow him as our savior?


I certainly would not believe the things that the OT and NT say but since he did die and rose from the dead, thus I can have faith in him and follow him.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,371
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 1:34:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 12:53:45 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:42:28 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:29:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:17:26 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:07:15 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:47:38 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:43:02 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:30:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?

No. By analogy, if a Jew had sacrificed a magical lamb that could not die, would it really have been a sacrifice?
Your "By analogy" seems to be a yes.

Are you suggesting that Jesus did not really die?

Well, personally I don't believe he came back to life, but for the sake of argument I have overlooked that. Assuming Jesus was "God" and he is incapable of not existing, then what exactly was sacrificed when he died?
What exactly is sacrificed when a soldier is killed in combat? In other words, Is the term "He sacrificed his life for his country" a valid term, or just a nice saying to make his acquaintances feel better?

That is a bad comparison. The soldier is mortal and his/her death actually gives up future potential forever. It is not the same for an eternal omnipotent being.
That's why I was asking the question:

"To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?"

When a soldier is killed in combat, his life was sacrificed. When Jesus died on the Christ, His life was sacrificed. The physical body that He occupied died. The sins of humanity were placed on Jesus, and His death was payment for the sins of humanity. So there's no question that Christ's death was a sacrifice. He willingly went to the cross with the purpose of sacrificing His life.

Yes, Christ resurrected, so his death was not permanent, but that's a different issue. That might be something one could put into the comparison category (which, who's, sacrifice is more honorable, etc.).

That's the issue I am interested in. Is it really a sacrifice if part of a being's nature disallows actual death? I don't have any good analogies, but it is like suggesting a human sleeping for others is somehow a sacrifice. Sleep is a temporary state and part of our nature. Except for an omnipotent being this 'sleep' is by choice and unnecessary.
Christ's death was real. It wasn't an immortal fantasy we might see on the Twi-Light Zone where someone jumps in front of a train and just can't seem to kill themselves.

To keep in mind, from a biblical perspective, humans resurrect as well (believers in Christ), which of course would include soldiers that were believers.

As far as whether or not Christ's death was necessary, it satisfied the requirement from God's perspective, just as a sentence in a human court is designed to satisfy the judicial system.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 1:38:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 1:21:31 PM, seeu46 wrote:
At 3/8/2015 1:06:27 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:53:18 PM, seeu46 wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?



His human nature was sacrificed, not his Father the God nature.

If only his human nature was sacrificed, then one human life is hardly a worthy ransom for forgiveness of all humanity's sins past and present.


Worth? What is worthy to you for the price of our salvation? Everyone dies but not everyone's death saves to re-live again but only the holy one sent from God. His worth was most 'greatest' since he is 'perfect' without sin. No other can be that, as this may have zero value to you. But it means everything to me, as it gives me confidence to believe and follow him.

I don't think you understand the argument you are making. If Jesus only sacrificed his human nature and nothing of his deity, then your life or my life could be substituted with in place of the human life Jesus gave up. Are you amending your answer?




And by re-living it give us hope that by believing in him we to can certainly trust and follow him. For if he did not re-live no Christian would have faith in him and turn to other ways.

If you say then it was not a sacrifice since he re-lives. His re-living does not take away his 'human' death. A better question would be is, if Jesus person died and did not re-live, why should anyone have faith in him and follow him as our savior?


I certainly would not believe the things that the OT and NT say but since he did die and rose from the dead, thus I can have faith in him and follow him.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 1:51:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 1:34:36 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:53:45 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:42:28 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:29:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:17:26 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 12:07:15 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:47:38 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:43:02 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:30:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?

No. By analogy, if a Jew had sacrificed a magical lamb that could not die, would it really have been a sacrifice?
Your "By analogy" seems to be a yes.

Are you suggesting that Jesus did not really die?

Well, personally I don't believe he came back to life, but for the sake of argument I have overlooked that. Assuming Jesus was "God" and he is incapable of not existing, then what exactly was sacrificed when he died?
What exactly is sacrificed when a soldier is killed in combat? In other words, Is the term "He sacrificed his life for his country" a valid term, or just a nice saying to make his acquaintances feel better?

That is a bad comparison. The soldier is mortal and his/her death actually gives up future potential forever. It is not the same for an eternal omnipotent being.
That's why I was asking the question:

"To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?"

When a soldier is killed in combat, his life was sacrificed. When Jesus died on the Christ, His life was sacrificed. The physical body that He occupied died. The sins of humanity were placed on Jesus, and His death was payment for the sins of humanity. So there's no question that Christ's death was a sacrifice. He willingly went to the cross with the purpose of sacrificing His life.

Yes, Christ resurrected, so his death was not permanent, but that's a different issue. That might be something one could put into the comparison category (which, who's, sacrifice is more honorable, etc.).

That's the issue I am interested in. Is it really a sacrifice if part of a being's nature disallows actual death? I don't have any good analogies, but it is like suggesting a human sleeping for others is somehow a sacrifice. Sleep is a temporary state and part of our nature. Except for an omnipotent being this 'sleep' is by choice and unnecessary.
Christ's death was real. It wasn't an immortal fantasy we might see on the Twi-Light Zone where someone jumps in front of a train and just can't seem to kill themselves.

Do you think the god of the Bible is not eternal? One can not be eternal if they die, nor can they bring themselves back to life. Thus, no crucial part of Jesus could of ceased to be.

To keep in mind, from a biblical perspective, humans resurrect as well (believers in Christ), which of course would include soldiers that were believers.

That is irrelevant. Their deaths were not to buy forgiveness for all humans.

As far as whether or not Christ's death was necessary, it satisfied the requirement from God's perspective, just as a sentence in a human court is designed to satisfy the judicial system.

That sounds good, except that Jesus is said to be God, so why exactly was a sacrifice necessary? It seems you're suggesting God made hoops for himself to jump through. Hoops which were well suited for his ability.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,068
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 1:52:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 11:43:02 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:30:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?

No. By analogy, if a Jew had sacrificed a magical lamb that could not die, would it really have been a sacrifice?

If the magical lamb had felt the pain of a gruesome death, then sure.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 2:37:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 1:52:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:43:02 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:30:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?

No. By analogy, if a Jew had sacrificed a magical lamb that could not die, would it really have been a sacrifice?

If the magical lamb had felt the pain of a gruesome death, then sure.

Except sacrifice was never dependent on the suffering on the animal, but the death of an innocent. In that case, our hypothetical Jew could have tortured a single (mortal) lamb over and over to achieve redemption.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,068
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/8/2015 2:43:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2015 2:37:52 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 1:52:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:43:02 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/8/2015 11:30:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 3/7/2015 11:06:00 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
This is directed to Christians who accept Jesus as God.

In the Old Testament (spotless) animals are sacrificed to provide temporary forgiveness for sinners. Essentially, the animal dies for the sinner, and provides temporary life. I understand this concept.

What I don't understand is how Jesus, even if he was perfect and sinless, provided this for an indefinitely longer period. If Jesus is God, and God is omnipotent, then how exactly does an all-powerful being die? Assuming he can 'die' and is able to comes back to life afterwards, then what exactly was sacrificed?

Thoughts?
To try and get a better grasp on your question, are you inquiring as to why Christ's death, as opposed to a sacrificed animal, a soldier died in combat, etc., was temporary as opposed to eternal?

No. By analogy, if a Jew had sacrificed a magical lamb that could not die, would it really have been a sacrifice?

If the magical lamb had felt the pain of a gruesome death, then sure.

Except sacrifice was never dependent on the suffering on the animal, but the death of an innocent. In that case, our hypothetical Jew could have tortured a single (mortal) lamb over and over to achieve redemption.

But that would not be humane.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid