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Is Atheism Unreasonable

Moroni23
Posts: 235
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3/9/2015 12:58:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I like to think I have a very huge heart and I try everyday to become more and more like the savior. Please don't think that by me posting this post I am making fun of, persecuting, or judging you as an Atheist. I absolutely love all of Gods children and some of my very best friends, people who I love dearly, are Atheists.

Believe it or not I do consider myself a very openminded Christian (if there are any) and I like to look at things subjectively. After pondering this for more than a few days I think I have come to believe that Atheism is an unreasonable and selfish way to think.

Occam's Razor claims that the simplest answer is more than likely the correct one, and from all of the theory's I have heard. The theory of God is by far the simplest and most reasonable. in fact it is the only theory of our existence and universe that has stood the test of time. Still yet to be proven or disproven Though I understand it can sound like a fairy tell, no fair scientist in the world would rule out completely the possibility that it COULD be true. So taken into account that there is always the possibility that it COULD be true, and since science has still not completely agreed on exactly how life or the universe has come to exist, lets take a look at the main and really only argument for Atheism.

"I absolutely do not believe in God because God has not shown me proof that he exist." As far as I can tell every single Atheist that has ever lived, is an Atheist because they are looking for proof that God exists.

Why is this unreasonable? Because God by definition is the most supreme and powerful being in the universe and you don't believe in him because you want him to give you proof that he exists. You attack his church, harass his believers, mock him in public, and then turn around and ask him for a sign. There are over 7 billion people on this planet and you think it is reasonable that the most powerful and supreme being in the universe come visit you, Joe Blow, in a ball of fire? If I was God of the universe, you would be the last person on my list of people to see.

You are literally lower than a peasant in his kingdom and you don't believe the King exists because he hasn't taken time out of his day to come to your hobble and visit you.

Your a speck of sand on a mountain, and don't believe in the ocean because the water has never touched your shore.

As far as I can tell, you (people who this post relates to) are the same 'man of science' who stood at the top of the hill hundreds of years ago and claimed will all your heart and soul that the Earth is the center of our solar system.

In my opinion, Atheism is selfish and unreasonable. The ONLY fair and reasonable thing to declare yourself, if you choice not to believe in God, is Agnostic.

Prove me wrong
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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3/9/2015 1:04:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
So you believe that Zeus is the correct belief.
Zeus is a god that existed before your god existed and you think that a god fulfils Occams Razor. If so then the first god ever invented would be it. I agree that Zeus is probably not the answer, perhaps Ogg was the first god and he is the god you need to worship?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/9/2015 1:11:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 12:58:02 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
I like to think I have a very huge heart and I try everyday to become more and more like the savior. Please don't think that by me posting this post I am making fun of, persecuting, or judging you as an Atheist. I absolutely love all of Gods children and some of my very best friends, people who I love dearly, are Atheists.

Believe it or not I do consider myself a very openminded Christian (if there are any) and I like to look at things subjectively. After pondering this for more than a few days I think I have come to believe that Atheism is an unreasonable and selfish way to think.

Occam's Razor claims that the simplest answer is more than likely the correct one, and from all of the theory's I have heard. The theory of God is by far the simplest and most reasonable. in fact it is the only theory of our existence and universe that has stood the test of time. Still yet to be proven or disproven Though I understand it can sound like a fairy tell, no fair scientist in the world would rule out completely the possibility that it COULD be true. So taken into account that there is always the possibility that it COULD be true, and since science has still not completely agreed on exactly how life or the universe has come to exist, lets take a look at the main and really only argument for Atheism.

"I absolutely do not believe in God because God has not shown me proof that he exist." As far as I can tell every single Atheist that has ever lived, is an Atheist because they are looking for proof that God exists.

Why is this unreasonable? Because God by definition is the most supreme and powerful being in the universe and you don't believe in him because you want him to give you proof that he exists. You attack his church, harass his believers, mock him in public, and then turn around and ask him for a sign. There are over 7 billion people on this planet and you think it is reasonable that the most powerful and supreme being in the universe come visit you, Joe Blow, in a ball of fire? If I was God of the universe, you would be the last person on my list of people to see.

You are literally lower than a peasant in his kingdom and you don't believe the King exists because he hasn't taken time out of his day to come to your hobble and visit you.

Your a speck of sand on a mountain, and don't believe in the ocean because the water has never touched your shore.

As far as I can tell, you (people who this post relates to) are the same 'man of science' who stood at the top of the hill hundreds of years ago and claimed will all your heart and soul that the Earth is the center of our solar system.

In my opinion, Atheism is selfish and unreasonable. The ONLY fair and reasonable thing to declare yourself, if you choice not to believe in God, is Agnostic.

Prove me wrong

Most of God's believers who come to me who called themselves atheists were people who rejected the false gospels of Christianity and their false deity named Jesus. They love the knowledge of God that I share with them especially when I get into quantum mechanics that God used as an analogy to teach me how He created us.
Moroni23
Posts: 235
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3/9/2015 1:15:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 1:04:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
So you believe that Zeus is the correct belief.
Zeus is a god that existed before your god existed and you think that a god fulfils Occams Razor. If so then the first god ever invented would be it. I agree that Zeus is probably not the answer, perhaps Ogg was the first god and he is the god you need to worship?

My Friend. I believe in the God of Judaism. That is the first written record of a God we have. That was before the believe in Zeus came around.
Moroni23
Posts: 235
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3/9/2015 1:18:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 1:04:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
So you believe that Zeus is the correct belief.
Zeus is a god that existed before your god existed and you think that a god fulfils Occams Razor. If so then the first god ever invented would be it. I agree that Zeus is probably not the answer, perhaps Ogg was the first god and he is the god you need to worship?

But either way this is besides the point I am making. The point I am making is that Atheism is Unreasonable. For the specifics I would refer you to the first post on this forum.
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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3/9/2015 1:25:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 1:18:38 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:04:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
So you believe that Zeus is the correct belief.
Zeus is a god that existed before your god existed and you think that a god fulfils Occams Razor. If so then the first god ever invented would be it. I agree that Zeus is probably not the answer, perhaps Ogg was the first god and he is the god you need to worship?

But either way this is besides the point I am making. The point I am making is that Atheism is Unreasonable. For the specifics I would refer you to the first post on this forum.

No your claim is that a god fulfils the occams razor test.
That in no way makes your further claim that the god invented 3-4000yrs ago and now worshipped by you is that fulfilment of that test.
I'm prepared to let you have (for the sake of argument) that a god fulfils the test, so what? We have thousands of gods, yours is just one in the pantheon of possibilities.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Moroni23
Posts: 235
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3/9/2015 1:28:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 1:25:40 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:18:38 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:04:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
So you believe that Zeus is the correct belief.
Zeus is a god that existed before your god existed and you think that a god fulfils Occams Razor. If so then the first god ever invented would be it. I agree that Zeus is probably not the answer, perhaps Ogg was the first god and he is the god you need to worship?

But either way this is besides the point I am making. The point I am making is that Atheism is Unreasonable. For the specifics I would refer you to the first post on this forum.

No your claim is that a god fulfils the occams razor test.
That in no way makes your further claim that the god invented 3-4000yrs ago and now worshipped by you is that fulfilment of that test.
I'm prepared to let you have (for the sake of argument) that a god fulfils the test, so what? We have thousands of gods, yours is just one in the pantheon of possibilities.

Again my argument has absolutely nothing to do with the specifics of what God is the right one. My argument is solely that Atheism is unreasonable. And for the specifics I would refer you to the first post.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/9/2015 1:38:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 1:28:34 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:25:40 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:18:38 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:04:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
So you believe that Zeus is the correct belief.
Zeus is a god that existed before your god existed and you think that a god fulfils Occams Razor. If so then the first god ever invented would be it. I agree that Zeus is probably not the answer, perhaps Ogg was the first god and he is the god you need to worship?

But either way this is besides the point I am making. The point I am making is that Atheism is Unreasonable. For the specifics I would refer you to the first post on this forum.

No your claim is that a god fulfils the occams razor test.
That in no way makes your further claim that the god invented 3-4000yrs ago and now worshipped by you is that fulfilment of that test.
I'm prepared to let you have (for the sake of argument) that a god fulfils the test, so what? We have thousands of gods, yours is just one in the pantheon of possibilities.

Again my argument has absolutely nothing to do with the specifics of what God is the right one. My argument is solely that Atheism is unreasonable. And for the specifics I would refer you to the first post.

Christianity is unreasonable, also. And so is Judaism and Islam.
Moroni23
Posts: 235
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3/9/2015 1:40:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 1:38:41 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:28:34 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:25:40 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:18:38 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:04:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
So you believe that Zeus is the correct belief.
Zeus is a god that existed before your god existed and you think that a god fulfils Occams Razor. If so then the first god ever invented would be it. I agree that Zeus is probably not the answer, perhaps Ogg was the first god and he is the god you need to worship?

But either way this is besides the point I am making. The point I am making is that Atheism is Unreasonable. For the specifics I would refer you to the first post on this forum.

No your claim is that a god fulfils the occams razor test.
That in no way makes your further claim that the god invented 3-4000yrs ago and now worshipped by you is that fulfilment of that test.
I'm prepared to let you have (for the sake of argument) that a god fulfils the test, so what? We have thousands of gods, yours is just one in the pantheon of possibilities.

Again my argument has absolutely nothing to do with the specifics of what God is the right one. My argument is solely that Atheism is unreasonable. And for the specifics I would refer you to the first post.

Christianity is unreasonable, also. And so is Judaism and Islam.

Ok but that would be a different argument to have. But judging by your use of the word 'too' I am assuming you agree with me that Atheism is unreasonable.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/9/2015 1:44:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 1:40:55 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:38:41 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:28:34 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:25:40 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:18:38 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:04:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
So you believe that Zeus is the correct belief.
Zeus is a god that existed before your god existed and you think that a god fulfils Occams Razor. If so then the first god ever invented would be it. I agree that Zeus is probably not the answer, perhaps Ogg was the first god and he is the god you need to worship?

But either way this is besides the point I am making. The point I am making is that Atheism is Unreasonable. For the specifics I would refer you to the first post on this forum.

No your claim is that a god fulfils the occams razor test.
That in no way makes your further claim that the god invented 3-4000yrs ago and now worshipped by you is that fulfilment of that test.
I'm prepared to let you have (for the sake of argument) that a god fulfils the test, so what? We have thousands of gods, yours is just one in the pantheon of possibilities.

Again my argument has absolutely nothing to do with the specifics of what God is the right one. My argument is solely that Atheism is unreasonable. And for the specifics I would refer you to the first post.

Christianity is unreasonable, also. And so is Judaism and Islam.

Ok but that would be a different argument to have. But judging by your use of the word 'too' I am assuming you agree with me that Atheism is unreasonable.

The reason it is unreasonable is because none of God's people understand what the Truth is. They have no knowledge of God to understand who God created everything so whatever religious people, scientists and atheists share with each other is NOT the Truth.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/9/2015 1:50:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Occams razor is about explanations that requires the fewest assumptions.

An all powerful, all knowing, being who exists beyond the universe taking an interest in humans affairs requires a ton of assumptions.

You don't believe in other Gods right ? You see other Gods as merely man made inventions which are held in belief by all sorts of tricks ill reasoning and immune themselves to reason and evidence and demonizing non believers.

That's how some people will see your God.

And something else to think about, out of all the Gods that have existed, the God you just so happen to be told to believe in just so happens to be the God that exists ? As a matter of probability you should expect to be wrong.

Also there are heaps of things you don't believe in yet I don't here you b*tching about those who don't believe are unreasonable. eg alien abduction.

But when it comes to what ever you envision as "God" people who don't believe are being unreasonable ?

Double standard much ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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3/9/2015 1:55:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 1:40:55 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:38:41 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:28:34 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:25:40 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:18:38 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:04:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
So you believe that Zeus is the correct belief.
Zeus is a god that existed before your god existed and you think that a god fulfils Occams Razor. If so then the first god ever invented would be it. I agree that Zeus is probably not the answer, perhaps Ogg was the first god and he is the god you need to worship?

But either way this is besides the point I am making. The point I am making is that Atheism is Unreasonable. For the specifics I would refer you to the first post on this forum.

No your claim is that a god fulfils the occams razor test.
That in no way makes your further claim that the god invented 3-4000yrs ago and now worshipped by you is that fulfilment of that test.
I'm prepared to let you have (for the sake of argument) that a god fulfils the test, so what? We have thousands of gods, yours is just one in the pantheon of possibilities.

Again my argument has absolutely nothing to do with the specifics of what God is the right one. My argument is solely that Atheism is unreasonable. And for the specifics I would refer you to the first post.

Christianity is unreasonable, also. And so is Judaism and Islam.

Ok but that would be a different argument to have. But judging by your use of the word 'too' I am assuming you agree with me that Atheism is unreasonable.

He is Gods speakeres... i think u r new here this guy is speaking to God directly, hes a saint knows what God wants and stuff...at first i thought he is joking around but he is probably serious guy.
Never fart near dog
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/9/2015 1:58:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 12:58:02 AM, Moroni23 wrote:

Occam's Razor claims that the simplest answer is more than likely the correct one,

Moroni, Occam's Razor is really about not complicating an idea before you have to: it's not the principle that the simplest is always correct. Indeed, many scientific theories start simple and grow more complicated over time, because simple isn't enough.

The theory of God is by far the simplest and most reasonable.

It's neither, Moroni. If it were the simplest, it would have originated first. In fact, monotheism came very late in the development of religion, and not all in a rush, but piece by piece.

It's also not especially reasonable, for a range of reasons that people immersed in the faith find hard to see, but people outside the faith (atheists, Buddhists, Hindus etc...) have no difficulty identifying.

in fact it is the only theory of our existence and universe that has stood the test of time.

Monotheism has struggled terribly to keep cohesion. The way people think of it in modern times has evolved and evolved since ancient Judaism. Presently there are an estimated 41,000 Christian sects alone -- which suggests that monotheism is neither simple enough to understand, nor doctrinally stable.

Moreover, in Europe where Christianity first found acceptance, it is now being abandoned -- to the point where even many Christians are now talking about a 'post-Christian' world.

lets take a look at the main and really only argument for Atheism.

Most people of faith don't understand how diverse atheistic views can be. Atheism is not a doctrine -- just a position on a range of human claims. One can arrive at that position via many paths, and many doctrines may include atheism. But atheism itself is nondoctrinal, so it's not possible to dismiss it with a single counter-argument.

As far as I can tell, you (people who this post relates to) are the same 'man of science' who stood at the top of the hill hundreds of years ago and claimed will all your heart and soul that the Earth is the center of our solar system.

Not all atheists understand, support or rely on science for their position. If you're interested in why, I'd be happy to explain.

In my opinion, Atheism is selfish and unreasonable.

We can talk about reasonable separately, but atheists do not have to be selfish, because they can have very strong humanistic or other moral codes. Please bear in mind that some atheists have lost their lives through persecution by the religious, when they could have recanted and survived. Atheists also donate to charities. So we know that some atheists at least, think there are more important things than their own survival and prosperity.

Neither does monotheism guarantee one won't be selfish when adherents are promised eternal life and happiness as rewards, and punishments for doctrinal failures.

The ONLY fair and reasonable thing to declare yourself, if you choice not to believe in God, is Agnostic.

This position privileges the religious, since atheists tend to be more critical of faith, its institutions and impacts than agnostics do. Moreover, I know of no atheist who has ever asked a person of faith for permission for or approval of their beliefs, and see no reason why any should.

Prove me wrong

I don't have to, because atheists need neither care about your opinion, nor hold themselves accountable to you for it -- especially when theistic opinions about atheism are often so ignorant, hate-filled and dismissive. You say you love people, Moroni. Do you love them enough to respect their potential for conscience and intellect and listen to them, or just enough to answer your own questions with ignorance and bigotry?

I've already told you two or three things you didn't know about atheism. If you'd like to learn more, please ask a question and if it's respectful I'll be happy to answer it.
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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3/9/2015 2:02:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 12:58:02 AM, Moroni23 wrote:


"I absolutely do not believe in God because God has not shown me proof that he exist." As far as I can tell every single Atheist that has ever lived, is an Atheist because they are looking for proof that God exists.
I applaud the courage you've shown here by demonstrating an ignorance of monumental expanse for all to see on the internet.
Have you ever met an atheist?
Why is this unreasonable? Because God by definition
Which god was that?
is the most supreme and powerful being in the universe
Or as so many of your ilk need to fabricate, outside the universe.
and you don't believe in him because you want him to give you proof that he exists.
I don't believe in it because it doesn't exist.
You attack his church, harass his believers, mock him in public, and then turn around and ask him for a sign.
And in three posts you've told me that you aren't referring to a specific god, woops of course you are, but lying about it is the MO for the defenders of the faith.
There are over 7 billion people on this planet and you think it is reasonable that the most powerful and supreme being in the universe come visit you, Joe Blow, in a ball of fire?
Why would I think that a fictional character would come visit me? Should I look forward to Batman paying me a visit as well.
If I was God of the universe, you would be the last person on my list of people to see.
And that is why god was made in your image. You'll find that your god thinks exactly the same things you think, that's very pacifying for you I guess.
You are literally lower than a peasant in his kingdom and you don't believe the King exists because he hasn't taken time out of his day to come to your hobble and visit you.
I love how believers need to believe just how insignificant and unworthy they are. Good luck with that self flagellation, I like me.
Your a speck of sand on a mountain, and don't believe in the ocean because the water has never touched your shore.
Your a speck of microscopic unworthiness who nonetheless considers itself greater and more important than every other mote or being in a universe you cannot even fathom.
As far as I can tell, you (people who this post relates to) are the same 'man of science' who stood at the top of the hill hundreds of years ago and claimed will all your heart and soul that the Earth is the center of our solar system.
You seem to be confusing the idiots who believed what was written by ignorant goatherds with scientists.
In my opinion, Atheism is selfish and unreasonable. The ONLY fair and reasonable thing to declare yourself, if you choice not to believe in God, is Agnostic.
Selfish would be someone who expects to live in paradise "after they die", regardless of what happens to their loved ones. According to your beliefs you will be insanely happy knowing that your son is being tortured for eternity by the entity you will be worshipping for eternity.
Prove me wrong
Responding to the idiocy you were so naively brave enough post for all to see.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
dee-em
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3/9/2015 2:18:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 12:58:02 AM, Moroni23 wrote:

Ladies and gentlemen let me introduce you to the new BenShapiro. This one also thinks he knows the mind of an atheist. He doesn't ask questions. No, he presumes to know our motivation and our arguments better than we do. Talk about arrogance. Let's see how many strawmen Moroni has managed to set up so he can knock them down.

I like to think I have a very huge heart and I try everyday to become more and more like the savior. Please don't think that by me posting this post I am making fun of, persecuting, or judging you as an Atheist. I absolutely love all of Gods children and some of my very best friends, people who I love dearly, are Atheists.

The above reminds me of this:

I like to think I have a very huge heart and I try everyday to become more and more like the savior. Please don't think that by me posting this post I am making fun of, persecuting, or judging you as a black person. I absolutely love all of Gods children and some of my very best friends, people who I love dearly, are blacks.

This kind of statement usually precedes some deeply offensive racist remark. We'll see how Moroni does in offending atheists.

Believe it or not I do consider myself a very openminded Christian (if there are any) and I like to look at things subjectively.

Yeah, you do, though you probably meant objectively. Lol.

After pondering this for more than a few days I think I have come to believe that Atheism is an unreasonable and selfish way to think.

But no offense meant, right?

Occam's Razor claims that the simplest answer is more than likely the correct one, and from all of the theory's I have heard. The theory of God is by far the simplest and most reasonable.

Please list the theories you have heard. You obviously posit a creator for the universe since you believe the universe needs an explanation. Do you also need an explanation for your creator? Which scenario do you think Occam's Razor would rule out? A universe with no explanation (yet) or a universe created by a god but where god needs an explanation. Which is simpler and therefore more likely (your words)?

in fact it is the only theory of our existence and universe that has stood the test of time.

That would be great except it's not a theory in the sense you are using it. It is merely an idea with no evidence to support it. Plus it creates more problems than it solves as per your Occam's Razor argument above.

Still yet to be proven or disproven.

After thousands of years, that should tell you something.

Though I understand it can sound like a fairy tell, no fair scientist in the world would rule out completely the possibility that it COULD be true.

That's because it's an unfalsifiable hypothesis. You can't prove a universal negative.

So taken into account that there is always the possibility that it COULD be true, and since science has still not completely agreed on exactly how life or the universe has come to exist, lets take a look at the main and really only argument for Atheism.

I couldn't have stated the theistic "God of the Gaps" argument any better. Great job!

"I absolutely do not believe in God because God has not shown me proof that he exist." As far as I can tell every single Atheist that has ever lived, is an Atheist because they are looking for proof that God exists.

Here's some news for you. Most of us aren't looking. We're pretty much convinced that there is no evidence. Posters like you reinforce that view daily.

Why is this unreasonable? Because God by definition is the most supreme and powerful being in the universe and you don't believe in him because you want him to give you proof that he exists.

You state that it is unreasonable but you don't say why it is.

You attack his church, harass his believers, mock him in public, and then turn around and ask him for a sign. There are over 7 billion people on this planet and you think it is reasonable that the most powerful and supreme being in the universe come visit you, Joe Blow, in a ball of fire? If I was God of the universe, you would be the last person on my list of people to see.

You have it backwards. We became atheists because of the lack of evidence for any deity. Then we started doing some of the things you accuse us of. Most atheists just quietly go about their daily lives ignoring religion. You seem to think all atheists are like the few outspoken ones you find here. It would be like me presuming that all Christians are like the ones who go around bombing abortion clinics.

Btw, are you saying that God is petty? If I'm an atheist it's because he gave me a brain and allowed me to reason about the world. If that reasoning turns up not a shred of evidence for his existence, how can he blame me for him not leaving a sign?

You are literally lower than a peasant in his kingdom and you don't believe the King exists because he hasn't taken time out of his day to come to your hobble and visit you.

I think you meant 'hovel'. He would if he cared about my salvation. Obviously the king has no concern for his subjects. Why should I give my allegiance to such a ruler?

Your a speck of sand on a mountain, and don't believe in the ocean because the water has never touched your shore.

I think you meant "you're". Bad analogy. A lot of mountains were on the seabed in times past. In fact that is how sandstone (which breaks down into sand) is formed.

As far as I can tell, you (people who this post relates to) are the same 'man of science' who stood at the top of the hill hundreds of years ago and claimed will all your heart and soul that the Earth is the center of our solar system.

You are confused. That was the church and a Pope making that proclamation and they fought tooth and nail to keep it that way. Ask Copernicus and Galileo.

In my opinion, Atheism is selfish and unreasonable.

I haven't seen any explanation for the 'selfish' part.

The ONLY fair and reasonable thing to declare yourself, if you choice not to believe in God, is Agnostic.

Thank you again for telling us what we must do to please you. You won't mind if we politely refuse, I hope.

Prove me wrong

Proofs only exist in mathematics.
Graincruncher
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3/9/2015 2:38:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 12:58:02 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
I like to think I have a very huge heart and I try everyday to become more and more like the savior. Please don't think that by me posting this post I am making fun of, persecuting, or judging you as an Atheist. I absolutely love all of Gods children and some of my very best friends, people who I love dearly, are Atheists.

Believe it or not I do consider myself a very openminded Christian (if there are any) and I like to look at things subjectively. After pondering this for more than a few days I think I have come to believe that Atheism is an unreasonable and selfish way to think.

Occam's Razor claims that the simplest answer is more than likely the correct one, and from all of the theory's I have heard. The theory of God is by far the simplest and most reasonable. in fact it is the only theory of our existence and universe that has stood the test of time. Still yet to be proven or disproven Though I understand it can sound like a fairy tell, no fair scientist in the world would rule out completely the possibility that it COULD be true. So taken into account that there is always the possibility that it COULD be true, and since science has still not completely agreed on exactly how life or the universe has come to exist, lets take a look at the main and really only argument for Atheism.

"I absolutely do not believe in God because God has not shown me proof that he exist." As far as I can tell every single Atheist that has ever lived, is an Atheist because they are looking for proof that God exists.

Why is this unreasonable? Because God by definition is the most supreme and powerful being in the universe and you don't believe in him because you want him to give you proof that he exists. You attack his church, harass his believers, mock him in public, and then turn around and ask him for a sign. There are over 7 billion people on this planet and you think it is reasonable that the most powerful and supreme being in the universe come visit you, Joe Blow, in a ball of fire? If I was God of the universe, you would be the last person on my list of people to see.

You are literally lower than a peasant in his kingdom and you don't believe the King exists because he hasn't taken time out of his day to come to your hobble and visit you.

Your a speck of sand on a mountain, and don't believe in the ocean because the water has never touched your shore.

As far as I can tell, you (people who this post relates to) are the same 'man of science' who stood at the top of the hill hundreds of years ago and claimed will all your heart and soul that the Earth is the center of our solar system.

In my opinion, Atheism is selfish and unreasonable. The ONLY fair and reasonable thing to declare yourself, if you choice not to believe in God, is Agnostic.

Prove me wrong

So you're seriously saying that "universe + even more complex entity" is a simpler system than just "universe"? I would urge you to stop and think about that for a moment.
DanneJeRusse
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3/9/2015 8:12:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 12:58:02 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
I like to think I have a very huge heart and I try everyday to become more and more like the savior. Please don't think that by me posting this post I am making fun of, persecuting, or judging you as an Atheist. I absolutely love all of Gods children and some of my very best friends, people who I love dearly, are Atheists.

Believe it or not I do consider myself a very openminded Christian (if there are any) and I like to look at things subjectively. After pondering this for more than a few days I think I have come to believe that Atheism is an unreasonable and selfish way to think.

Occam's Razor claims that the simplest answer is more than likely the correct one, and from all of the theory's I have heard. The theory of God is by far the simplest and most reasonable.

Does that mean the answer, "God Done It" is the simplest answer, the only answer you need? Or, is it because it's the easy answer, the lazy answer? No effort required to think beyond it?

in fact it is the only theory of our existence and universe that has stood the test of time.

Sorry, but God theories are disappearing in light of scientific theories. They are no longer standing the test of time as real answers.

Still yet to be proven or disproven

Correction, yet to be shown or demonstrated in any way, shape or form.

Though I understand it can sound like a fairy tell, no fair scientist in the world would rule out completely the possibility that it COULD be true.

Scientists don't rule out gods in the same way they don't rule out unicorns and leprechauns.

So taken into account that there is always the possibility that it COULD be true

Yes, and it could be a God you yourself don't worship.

and since science has still not completely agreed on exactly how life or the universe has come to exist

Science agrees life in the universe came about on it's own based on the evidence. Gods were not required, apparent or evident in any way.

lets take a look at the main and really only argument for Atheism.

"I absolutely do not believe in God because God has not shown me proof that he exist." As far as I can tell every single Atheist that has ever lived, is an Atheist because they are looking for proof that God exists.

Why is this unreasonable? Because God by definition is the most supreme and powerful being in the universe and you don't believe in him because you want him to give you proof that he exists.

Circular Argument and Appeal to Belief fallacies.

You attack his church, harass his believers, mock him in public, and then turn around and ask him for a sign.

That doesn't deserve a response because it is bs.

There are over 7 billion people on this planet and you think it is reasonable that the most powerful and supreme being in the universe come visit you, Joe Blow, in a ball of fire?

Yes, He came to visit you, didn't He? How else would you know He existed? Blind faith?

If I was God of the universe, you would be the last person on my list of people to see.

Cheap shot.

You are literally lower than a peasant in his kingdom and you don't believe the King exists because he hasn't taken time out of his day to come to your hobble and visit you.

Your a speck of sand on a mountain, and don't believe in the ocean because the water has never touched your shore.

Your personal bias has been noted.

As far as I can tell, you (people who this post relates to) are the same 'man of science' who stood at the top of the hill hundreds of years ago and claimed will all your heart and soul that the Earth is the center of our solar system.

No, those were believers like yourself who did that.

In my opinion, Atheism is selfish and unreasonable. The ONLY fair and reasonable thing to declare yourself, if you choice not to believe in God, is Agnostic.

Prove me wrong

That was just too easy.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
MadCornishBiker
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3/9/2015 8:13:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 12:58:02 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
I like to think I have a very huge heart and I try everyday to become more and more like the savior. Please don't think that by me posting this post I am making fun of, persecuting, or judging you as an Atheist. I absolutely love all of Gods children and some of my very best friends, people who I love dearly, are Atheists.

Believe it or not I do consider myself a very openminded Christian (if there are any) and I like to look at things subjectively. After pondering this for more than a few days I think I have come to believe that Atheism is an unreasonable and selfish way to think.

Occam's Razor claims that the simplest answer is more than likely the correct one, and from all of the theory's I have heard. The theory of God is by far the simplest and most reasonable. in fact it is the only theory of our existence and universe that has stood the test of time. Still yet to be proven or disproven Though I understand it can sound like a fairy tell, no fair scientist in the world would rule out completely the possibility that it COULD be true. So taken into account that there is always the possibility that it COULD be true, and since science has still not completely agreed on exactly how life or the universe has come to exist, lets take a look at the main and really only argument for Atheism.

"I absolutely do not believe in God because God has not shown me proof that he exist." As far as I can tell every single Atheist that has ever lived, is an Atheist because they are looking for proof that God exists.

Why is this unreasonable? Because God by definition is the most supreme and powerful being in the universe and you don't believe in him because you want him to give you proof that he exists. You attack his church, harass his believers, mock him in public, and then turn around and ask him for a sign. There are over 7 billion people on this planet and you think it is reasonable that the most powerful and supreme being in the universe come visit you, Joe Blow, in a ball of fire? If I was God of the universe, you would be the last person on my list of people to see.

You are literally lower than a peasant in his kingdom and you don't believe the King exists because he hasn't taken time out of his day to come to your hobble and visit you.

Your a speck of sand on a mountain, and don't believe in the ocean because the water has never touched your shore.

As far as I can tell, you (people who this post relates to) are the same 'man of science' who stood at the top of the hill hundreds of years ago and claimed will all your heart and soul that the Earth is the center of our solar system.

In my opinion, Atheism is selfish and unreasonable. The ONLY fair and reasonable thing to declare yourself, if you choice not to believe in God, is Agnostic.

Prove me wrong

I think it is unreasonable, but then I think the teachings of Mormon are also. and I know God does.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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3/9/2015 9:55:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
No. It is quite reasonable and rational to look for evidence before jumping to a conclusion. There is no objective evidence, so there can be no objective conclusion.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
dhardage
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3/9/2015 10:15:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 9:55:58 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
No. It is quite reasonable and rational to look for evidence before jumping to a conclusion. There is no objective evidence, so there can be no objective conclusion.

Thanks for the succinct and to the point answer.
PetersSmith
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3/9/2015 10:17:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think any belief that is Gnostic is unreasonable because they're ruling out all possibilities, and only Siths deal in absolutes.
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JJ50
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3/9/2015 10:19:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
As there isn't any verifiable evidence that any deity actually exists, it is reasonable that unbelief is the default position. When a theist comes up with irrefutable proof a deity of some sort does exist, then it would be unreasonable to disbelieve.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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3/9/2015 10:23:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 1:15:58 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:04:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
So you believe that Zeus is the correct belief.
Zeus is a god that existed before your god existed and you think that a god fulfils Occams Razor. If so then the first god ever invented would be it. I agree that Zeus is probably not the answer, perhaps Ogg was the first god and he is the god you need to worship?

My Friend. I believe in the God of Judaism. That is the first written record of a God we have. That was before the believe in Zeus came around.

Unfortunately history doesn't agree with you. Hinduism, for example, predates Judaism probably by a few thousand years. People were worshipping a creator god in India and probably Africa long before even Egypt was around. You do realize these are much older civilizations, do you not?
Moroni23
Posts: 235
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3/9/2015 10:30:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 10:23:57 AM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:15:58 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:04:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
So you believe that Zeus is the correct belief.
Zeus is a god that existed before your god existed and you think that a god fulfils Occams Razor. If so then the first god ever invented would be it. I agree that Zeus is probably not the answer, perhaps Ogg was the first god and he is the god you need to worship?

My Friend. I believe in the God of Judaism. That is the first written record of a God we have. That was before the believe in Zeus came around.

Unfortunately history doesn't agree with you. Hinduism, for example, predates Judaism probably by a few thousand years. People were worshipping a creator god in India and probably Africa long before even Egypt was around. You do realize these are much older civilizations, do you not?

If you read my post I said nothing about civilizations. I said that Judaism is 'The first writen record of a God we have.' As far as I know there is no text that predates the early hebrew writings.
Moroni23
Posts: 235
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3/9/2015 10:31:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 8:13:53 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/9/2015 12:58:02 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
I like to think I have a very huge heart and I try everyday to become more and more like the savior. Please don't think that by me posting this post I am making fun of, persecuting, or judging you as an Atheist. I absolutely love all of Gods children and some of my very best friends, people who I love dearly, are Atheists.

Believe it or not I do consider myself a very openminded Christian (if there are any) and I like to look at things subjectively. After pondering this for more than a few days I think I have come to believe that Atheism is an unreasonable and selfish way to think.

Occam's Razor claims that the simplest answer is more than likely the correct one, and from all of the theory's I have heard. The theory of God is by far the simplest and most reasonable. in fact it is the only theory of our existence and universe that has stood the test of time. Still yet to be proven or disproven Though I understand it can sound like a fairy tell, no fair scientist in the world would rule out completely the possibility that it COULD be true. So taken into account that there is always the possibility that it COULD be true, and since science has still not completely agreed on exactly how life or the universe has come to exist, lets take a look at the main and really only argument for Atheism.

"I absolutely do not believe in God because God has not shown me proof that he exist." As far as I can tell every single Atheist that has ever lived, is an Atheist because they are looking for proof that God exists.

Why is this unreasonable? Because God by definition is the most supreme and powerful being in the universe and you don't believe in him because you want him to give you proof that he exists. You attack his church, harass his believers, mock him in public, and then turn around and ask him for a sign. There are over 7 billion people on this planet and you think it is reasonable that the most powerful and supreme being in the universe come visit you, Joe Blow, in a ball of fire? If I was God of the universe, you would be the last person on my list of people to see.

You are literally lower than a peasant in his kingdom and you don't believe the King exists because he hasn't taken time out of his day to come to your hobble and visit you.

Your a speck of sand on a mountain, and don't believe in the ocean because the water has never touched your shore.

As far as I can tell, you (people who this post relates to) are the same 'man of science' who stood at the top of the hill hundreds of years ago and claimed will all your heart and soul that the Earth is the center of our solar system.

In my opinion, Atheism is selfish and unreasonable. The ONLY fair and reasonable thing to declare yourself, if you choice not to believe in God, is Agnostic.

Prove me wrong

I think it is unreasonable, but then I think the teachings of Mormon are also. and I know God does.

Everytime you make a comment like this I think to myself in a TV announcers voice... "one man against the internet... and the world..."
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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3/9/2015 10:58:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 10:23:57 AM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:15:58 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:04:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
So you believe that Zeus is the correct belief.
Zeus is a god that existed before your god existed and you think that a god fulfils Occams Razor. If so then the first god ever invented would be it. I agree that Zeus is probably not the answer, perhaps Ogg was the first god and he is the god you need to worship?

My Friend. I believe in the God of Judaism. That is the first written record of a God we have. That was before the believe in Zeus came around.

Unfortunately history doesn't agree with you. Hinduism, for example, predates Judaism probably by a few thousand years. People were worshipping a creator god in India and probably Africa long before even Egypt was around. You do realize these are much older civilizations, do you not?

I agree Hinduism is the oldest and most sophisticated of all religions. Christianity and Islam in comparison are crude constructs focused primarily on morality issues whereas Hinduism teaches us how to transcend the boundaries of out material world and free our minds to explore the essence of our being in a unified consciousness in which we are all one. Hinduism removes the duality in reality. Our actions and thoughts are harmonized with a singular purpose to attain enlightenment to free ourselves from the cycle of rebirths (samsara) . The gratification of our insatiable desires are only temporary and nothing but a distraction to which there is no lastingly satisfaction. Meditation can conquered these base instincts and help advance and break the bonds that inhibit our total realization of our transcendental potential.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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3/9/2015 11:04:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 10:30:19 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 10:23:57 AM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:15:58 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:04:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
So you believe that Zeus is the correct belief.
Zeus is a god that existed before your god existed and you think that a god fulfils Occams Razor. If so then the first god ever invented would be it. I agree that Zeus is probably not the answer, perhaps Ogg was the first god and he is the god you need to worship?

My Friend. I believe in the God of Judaism. That is the first written record of a God we have. That was before the believe in Zeus came around.

Unfortunately history doesn't agree with you. Hinduism, for example, predates Judaism probably by a few thousand years. People were worshipping a creator god in India and probably Africa long before even Egypt was around. You do realize these are much older civilizations, do you not?

If you read my post I said nothing about civilizations. I said that Judaism is 'The first writen record of a God we have.' As far as I know there is no text that predates the early hebrew writings.

Which is still wrong (so even if restriction to gods presented in writing made any sense in this context, it makes no difference). The Rig Vega and the Epic of Gilgamesh, among other texts, pre-date even when the exodus was supposed to have occurred. Then came the Upanishads, and apparently the Torah a few centuries afterwards. There is a Jewish text that may pre-date the Torah by a few hundred years (not sure if it references a god), but that is still outdated by several other writings about various gods.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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3/9/2015 11:06:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 10:58:04 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/9/2015 10:23:57 AM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:15:58 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 3/9/2015 1:04:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
So you believe that Zeus is the correct belief.
Zeus is a god that existed before your god existed and you think that a god fulfils Occams Razor. If so then the first god ever invented would be it. I agree that Zeus is probably not the answer, perhaps Ogg was the first god and he is the god you need to worship?

My Friend. I believe in the God of Judaism. That is the first written record of a God we have. That was before the believe in Zeus came around.

Unfortunately history doesn't agree with you. Hinduism, for example, predates Judaism probably by a few thousand years. People were worshipping a creator god in India and probably Africa long before even Egypt was around. You do realize these are much older civilizations, do you not?

I agree Hinduism is the oldest and most sophisticated of all religions. Christianity and Islam in comparison are crude constructs focused primarily on morality issues whereas Hinduism teaches us how to transcend the boundaries of out material world and free our minds to explore the essence of our being in a unified consciousness in which we are all one. Hinduism removes the duality in reality. Our actions and thoughts are harmonized with a singular purpose to attain enlightenment to free ourselves from the cycle of rebirths (samsara) . The gratification of our insatiable desires are only temporary and nothing but a distraction to which there is no lastingly satisfaction. Meditation can conquered these base instincts and help advance and break the bonds that inhibit our total realization of our transcendental potential.

I still comes with its own nonsense (though original forms of Hindusim are much more sensible overall, based on what I know), but it's certainly at least a lot more interesting than any of the Abrahamic religions.
footballchris561
Posts: 23
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3/9/2015 12:46:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2015 12:58:02 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
I like to think I have a very huge heart and I try everyday to become more and more like the savior. Please don't think that by me posting this post I am making fun of, persecuting, or judging you as an Atheist. I absolutely love all of Gods children and some of my very best friends, people who I love dearly, are Atheists.

Believe it or not I do consider myself a very openminded Christian (if there are any) and I like to look at things subjectively. After pondering this for more than a few days I think I have come to believe that Atheism is an unreasonable and selfish way to think.

Occam's Razor claims that the simplest answer is more than likely the correct one, and from all of the theory's I have heard. The theory of God is by far the simplest and most reasonable. in fact it is the only theory of our existence and universe that has stood the test of time. Still yet to be proven or disproven Though I understand it can sound like a fairy tell, no fair scientist in the world would rule out completely the possibility that it COULD be true. So taken into account that there is always the possibility that it COULD be true, and since science has still not completely agreed on exactly how life or the universe has come to exist, lets take a look at the main and really only argument for Atheism.

"I absolutely do not believe in God because God has not shown me proof that he exist." As far as I can tell every single Atheist that has ever lived, is an Atheist because they are looking for proof that God exists.

Why is this unreasonable? Because God by definition is the most supreme and powerful being in the universe and you don't believe in him because you want him to give you proof that he exists. You attack his church, harass his believers, mock him in public, and then turn around and ask him for a sign. There are over 7 billion people on this planet and you think it is reasonable that the most powerful and supreme being in the universe come visit you, Joe Blow, in a ball of fire? If I was God of the universe, you would be the last person on my list of people to see.

You are literally lower than a peasant in his kingdom and you don't believe the King exists because he hasn't taken time out of his day to come to your hobble and visit you.

Your a speck of sand on a mountain, and don't believe in the ocean because the water has never touched your shore.

As far as I can tell, you (people who this post relates to) are the same 'man of science' who stood at the top of the hill hundreds of years ago and claimed will all your heart and soul that the Earth is the center of our solar system.

In my opinion, Atheism is selfish and unreasonable. The ONLY fair and reasonable thing to declare yourself, if you choice not to believe in God, is Agnostic.

Prove me wrong

Ockham was a devout religious believer and when using the razor he made the assumption of God an absolute, meaning that he can not be doubted. However that can not be used to prove God. Even though you didn't use god as an absolute the razor also favors the idea with the least amount of assumptions. Any kind of an idea of a deity is nothing but an assumption so if you were to use the razor as an absolute you would be proving god wrong. However, Occam's Razor is not used to prove things right or wrong. It is only a philosophy for thinking logically. Going back, even though nothing is proved, you have cut yourself with the razor in that using Occam's Razor only asserts that the idea of god is illogical because it is just an assumption.

There is a number of observable evidence that the world is older than the bible predicted and that the world was created by the big bang. Now the argument is energy and matter vs God. The problem is how did they come to be? The theist argument is that God has always existed and then he created matter and energy. Fair enough. Now I can say that it is just as logical that energy always existed. The problem is that they are both assumptions. The thing is that I cannot see God, but I can see energy and atoms. I can observe them and find out how old the earth is and how old the bones in the ground are that explain how we evolved from evolution. I can observe the radiation from the big bang.

I have arms and legs, eyes and ears. I am smaller that a spec of sand, but I am a spec that can smell the ocean and hear it's waves. I can see the ocean with my eyes and swim in this ocean. But the ocean is not God, it is energy.

I do not attack, harass, or mock anything or anybody. I respect everyone's right to have an opinion or an idea. I even entertain the idea of a deity or general God from time to time even though I am a Gnostic atheist. I also respect your opinion but that doesn't mean I don't have my own. In my opinion, I don't even think agnostic is a legitimate position to take. I think it is even worse than theism as it is simply a lack of a position, or just a position of uncertainty.