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A Message to POPOO and other American Muslims

YassineB
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3/12/2015 12:13:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/12/2015 10:32:34 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:


- NICE. The Message should also be heard by all Americans, this way they can realise what muslims are trying to do, & leave the propaganda behind.

- I just want to mention for the readers out there, Abduallah Ibn Bayyah is a licensed muslim scholars, one of the top in the World.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

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http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
POPOO5560
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3/12/2015 1:58:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/12/2015 10:32:34 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:


hhhhhhh lol if im wrong sorry im not hear to bash people its just a debate site.... dudes here critisizing also Islam and the prophet... anyway its not my intention to hurt anybody if i did wrong i apologizing and tnkx to the reminder :D
Never fart near dog
ChristianPunk
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3/12/2015 2:06:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/12/2015 1:58:56 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/12/2015 10:32:34 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:


hhhhhhh lol if im wrong sorry im not hear to bash people its just a debate site.... dudes here critisizing also Islam and the prophet... anyway its not my intention to hurt anybody if i did wrong i apologizing and tnkx to the reminder :D

al-Furqan 25:63

The (true) servants of the All-Merciful are they who move on the earth gently and humbly, and when the ignorant, foolish ones address them (with insolence or vulgarity as befits their ignorance and foolishness), they response with (words of) peace, (without engaging in hostility with them);

(Ali Unal translation)

So that's what I hope you use when somebody becomes critical of you. That's all I want. You to practice your religion fully.
celestialtorahteacher
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3/12/2015 10:47:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
False front, window dressing. Muhammad's religion includes satanic verses, lot's of them, commanding Muhammad followers to persecute, terrorize and lop of heads of unbelievers and these verses are the tools of fundamentalist believers, the ones who control each Abrahamic religion unless the top guy changes things, as the Ahmadiyyah messiah did for Ahmadiyyah Muslims, the only Muslims who don't want to hurt anyone. The rest cannot be trusted as when they acquire Muslim majority they want Sharia Law to replace national constitutional laws. And will make war, hot or cold, to get it.
celestialtorahteacher
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3/12/2015 10:51:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm tired of these wannabe Religious Empires citizens screwing up the laws of the countries they live in and it isn't just Muhammadans doing it but also Zionist Jews and Evangelical Christians, all of them acting like 5th Columnists supporting foreign governments instead of their own nations. I think I'm talking to generations in the future as these ones here are lost in Abrahamic religious warfare madness and can't see it for the life of them.
POPOO5560
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3/13/2015 5:00:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/12/2015 2:06:41 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:

so what you say about these verses?

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
Never fart near dog
POPOO5560
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3/13/2015 12:13:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/12/2015 10:51:24 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
I'm tired of these wannabe Religious Empires citizens screwing up the laws of the countries they live in and it isn't just Muhammadans doing it but also Zionist Jews and Evangelical Christians, all of them acting like 5th Columnists supporting foreign governments instead of their own nations. I think I'm talking to generations in the future as these ones here are lost in Abrahamic religious warfare madness and can't see it for the life of them.

starting with " I'm tired" you making my day! at least we dont have to see rubbish next time :D
Never fart near dog
ChristianPunk
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3/13/2015 12:25:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 5:00:32 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/12/2015 2:06:41 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:

so what you say about these verses?

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

Not sure. I'm not well versed in the Quran. I just know that 5:47 seems to support what the christians believe.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,489
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3/13/2015 12:30:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 12:25:54 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/13/2015 5:00:32 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/12/2015 2:06:41 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:

so what you say about these verses?

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

Not sure. I'm not well versed in the Quran. I just know that 5:47 seems to support what the christians believe.

and you have the Gospel of Jesus or Gospels of others people speaking about Jesus?
Never fart near dog
ChristianPunk
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3/13/2015 2:01:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 12:30:28 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/13/2015 12:25:54 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/13/2015 5:00:32 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/12/2015 2:06:41 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:

so what you say about these verses?

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

Not sure. I'm not well versed in the Quran. I just know that 5:47 seems to support what the christians believe.

and you have the Gospel of Jesus or Gospels of others people speaking about Jesus?

Mhm. One person I suggest to check out is Abdu Murray. He was a former muslim apologist who was focused on converting people to islam by destroying the worldviews of non muslims. He then started to study the quran more and get challenged to read the bible to the point where he was convinced. He even said that the 5:47 part of the quran led him to believe the bible and be a Christian.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/13/2015 2:44:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 2:01:38 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/13/2015 12:30:28 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/13/2015 12:25:54 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/13/2015 5:00:32 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/12/2015 2:06:41 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:

so what you say about these verses?

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

Not sure. I'm not well versed in the Quran. I just know that 5:47 seems to support what the christians believe.

and you have the Gospel of Jesus or Gospels of others people speaking about Jesus?

Mhm. One person I suggest to check out is Abdu Murray. He was a former muslim apologist who was focused on converting people to islam by destroying the worldviews of non muslims. He then started to study the quran more and get challenged to read the bible to the point where he was convinced. He even said that the 5:47 part of the quran led him to believe the bible and be a Christian.



Most people don't know that Islam is a mix of some prophetic knowledge that Mohammed received directly from our Creator and from knowledge taught to him by Roman Catholics. That's why many of things written about in the Quran are similar to the New Testament writings that antichrists wrote with their additional Jewish traditions and Babylonian ideas.

Like the New Testament that antichrists produced with their antichrist knowledge included, Mohammed's writers added these New Testament ideas and other religious garbage to their Quran. Neither of these holy books will bring the reader to the Truth.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,489
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3/13/2015 5:56:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 2:01:38 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/13/2015 12:30:28 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/13/2015 12:25:54 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/13/2015 5:00:32 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/12/2015 2:06:41 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:

so what you say about these verses?

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

Not sure. I'm not well versed in the Quran. I just know that 5:47 seems to support what the christians believe.

and you have the Gospel of Jesus or Gospels of others people speaking about Jesus?

Mhm. One person I suggest to check out is Abdu Murray. He was a former muslim apologist who was focused on converting people to islam by destroying the worldviews of non muslims. He then started to study the quran more and get challenged to read the bible to the point where he was convinced. He even said that the 5:47 part of the quran led him to believe the bible and be a Christian.



dude its not winning me or winning you to convert, i just want to pick the truth only. and through my examination i know and im sure that if there is a true religion that must be Islam. i know it cant be christianity for many reasons. if i going to leave Islam the only things left for me are deism/agnosticism. if you want to discuss "why" with pleasure man i have all day...
Never fart near dog
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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3/13/2015 9:14:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 5:56:20 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/13/2015 2:01:38 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/13/2015 12:30:28 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/13/2015 12:25:54 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/13/2015 5:00:32 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 3/12/2015 2:06:41 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:

so what you say about these verses?

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

Not sure. I'm not well versed in the Quran. I just know that 5:47 seems to support what the christians believe.

and you have the Gospel of Jesus or Gospels of others people speaking about Jesus?

Mhm. One person I suggest to check out is Abdu Murray. He was a former muslim apologist who was focused on converting people to islam by destroying the worldviews of non muslims. He then started to study the quran more and get challenged to read the bible to the point where he was convinced. He even said that the 5:47 part of the quran led him to believe the bible and be a Christian.



dude its not winning me or winning you to convert, i just want to pick the truth only. and through my examination i know and im sure that if there is a true religion that must be Islam. i know it cant be christianity for many reasons. if i going to leave Islam the only things left for me are deism/agnosticism. if you want to discuss "why" with pleasure man i have all day...

But wasn't Abdu's testimony also about seeking for truth as well?
YassineB
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3/13/2015 10:51:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 2:01:38 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Not sure. I'm not well versed in the Quran. I just know that 5:47 seems to support what the christians believe.

and you have the Gospel of Jesus or Gospels of others people speaking about Jesus?

Mhm. One person I suggest to check out is Abdu Murray. He was a former muslim apologist who was focused on converting people to islam by destroying the worldviews of non muslims. He then started to study the quran more and get challenged to read the bible to the point where he was convinced. He even said that the 5:47 part of the quran led him to believe the bible and be a Christian.



- That's exactly why it's crucial to know Classical Arabic before attempting to interpret the Qur'an. Plus, the context, & the circumstances of Revelation are equally crucial.

- Here is the Context:
> Chapter 5, Verses 46-47-48:
"And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.
And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ."

> Verse 47 => The command "Let the People of the Gospel judge" comes after the affirmation that the Gospel is a Revelation to Jesus, a command that urges its People (Jesus's followers) to judge by what was Revealed in it by God (Allah), & not judge by other than what Allah revealed. & those who judge by other than what Allah has revealed are the disobedient.

> Verse 48 => The Revelation (to Prophet Muhammad) that is the Qur'an came as confirmation to all past Scripture, & as a Criterion over all past Scripture, & the Revelation of Truth, such that those who don't follow it are turning away from the Truth.

=> Verse 47 ==>> It states that:
1. The Gospel is a Revelation.
2. Some of it has been preserved.
3. Some of it has been corrupted.
4. Those who follow the corrupted some are disobedient.

=> Verse 48 ==>> States that:
1. The Qur'an is the Final Revelation.
2. The Qur'an confirms all past Revelations;
3. The Qur'an abrogates all past Revelations.
4. The Qur'an is the only True Revelation.
5. All else other than the Qur'an is not the Truth.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
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3/14/2015 9:25:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 10:51:49 PM, YassineB wrote:

=> Verse 48 ==>> States that:
1. The Qur'an is the Final Revelation.
2. The Qur'an confirms all past Revelations;
3. The Qur'an abrogates all past Revelations.
4. The Qur'an is the only True Revelation.
5. All else other than the Qur'an is not the Truth.

Yes, those are common red flag claims that show a religion is man made as they are claims made by all other man made religions. It shows the religion cannot stand on it's own merits and values.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
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3/14/2015 10:09:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/12/2015 12:13:03 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/12/2015 10:32:34 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:


- NICE. The Message should also be heard by all Americans, this way they can realise what muslims are trying to do, & leave the propaganda behind.

- I just want to mention for the readers out there, Abduallah Ibn Bayyah is a licensed muslim scholars, one of the top in the World.

I really like that guy. Of course, he tows the party line in regards to believing the propaganda of Islam, for example, at the beginning where he credits Allah for creating the medium (internet) that allows him to speak with others over long distances, a quick slap in the face to those scientists and inventors who deserve the credit.

Nonetheless, he makes some very good points, those of which are actually directed back to the ME, where religious and speech freedoms in the American Constitution don't exist and how the Islamic world there is trying to cope with it, because the envy it.

Love that. He openly admits Muslims envy the freedoms of the West and how they would very much like to employ it there. I suspect though, that is exactly what radical fundamentalists are trying to make sure never occurs He goes on to encourage Americans to take advantage of their rights and to make sure they use their freedoms where it really counts; voting.

The thing is that what he is saying is what many of us are saying, that the Muslim world really needs to catch up to this century and that folks there must be more open to the ideas of freedoms, to get together to benefit us all, to put religions aside for the betterment of mankind.

Again, love that guy. It's cool that he has his own channel.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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3/14/2015 10:23:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 10:09:29 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
I really like that guy. Of course, he tows the party line in regards to believing the propaganda of Islam, for example, at the beginning where he credits Allah for creating the medium (internet) that allows him to speak with others over long distances, a quick slap in the face to those scientists and inventors who deserve the credit.

- There is no notion of God of the gaps in Islam. God design All Things, scientist discovering & understanding the World, doesn't add or subtract to God's decree.

Nonetheless, he makes some very good points, those of which are actually directed back to the ME, where religious and speech freedoms in the American Constitution don't exist and how the Islamic world there is trying to cope with it, because the envy it.

- In the Islamic World religious freedom is mildly to severely suppressed (depending on the country) because the regimes there are despotic, & are supported by the West, as a consequence to the imperial period. The West promotes freedom for themselves, but only do for the others if it suits their interests, if it doesn't, they squash it instead & support dictatorships all over the muslim World.

Love that. He openly admits Muslims envy the freedoms of the West and how they would very much like to employ it there. I suspect though, that is exactly what radical fundamentalists are trying to make sure never occurs He goes on to encourage Americans to take advantage of their rights and to make sure they use their freedoms where it really counts; voting.

- It has much less to do with Radicals than it has to do with the western backed dictatorships that are in power in most muslim countries.

The thing is that what he is saying is what many of us are saying, that the Muslim world really needs to catch up to this century and that folks there must be more open to the ideas of freedoms, to get together to benefit us all, to put religions aside for the betterment of mankind.

- He didn't say put religions aside for the betterment of mankind!!!
- The Muslim World has always strived to promote freedom & tolerance, & all Licensed Muslim Scholars call for exactly that, the rest is oppressive western foreign policies, radical backlashes, accompanied with bias propaganda.

Again, love that guy. It's cool that he has his own channel.

- Well, thank you, we might have something in common after all :) .
- All Licensed Muslim Scholars share the same sentiment he does, as do I.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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3/14/2015 10:43:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 10:23:42 AM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/14/2015 10:09:29 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
I really like that guy. Of course, he tows the party line in regards to believing the propaganda of Islam, for example, at the beginning where he credits Allah for creating the medium (internet) that allows him to speak with others over long distances, a quick slap in the face to those scientists and inventors who deserve the credit.

- There is no notion of God of the gaps in Islam. God design All Things, scientist discovering & understanding the World, doesn't add or subtract to God's decree.

Nonetheless, he makes some very good points, those of which are actually directed back to the ME, where religious and speech freedoms in the American Constitution don't exist and how the Islamic world there is trying to cope with it, because the envy it.

- In the Islamic World religious freedom is mildly to severely suppressed (depending on the country) because the regimes there are despotic, & are supported by the West, as a consequence to the imperial period. The West promotes freedom for themselves, but only do for the others if it suits their interests, if it doesn't, they squash it instead & support dictatorships all over the muslim World.

Love that. He openly admits Muslims envy the freedoms of the West and how they would very much like to employ it there. I suspect though, that is exactly what radical fundamentalists are trying to make sure never occurs He goes on to encourage Americans to take advantage of their rights and to make sure they use their freedoms where it really counts; voting.

- It has much less to do with Radicals than it has to do with the western backed dictatorships that are in power in most muslim countries.

The thing is that what he is saying is what many of us are saying, that the Muslim world really needs to catch up to this century and that folks there must be more open to the ideas of freedoms, to get together to benefit us all, to put religions aside for the betterment of mankind.

- He didn't say put religions aside for the betterment of mankind!!!
- The Muslim World has always strived to promote freedom & tolerance, & all Licensed Muslim Scholars call for exactly that, the rest is oppressive western foreign policies, radical backlashes, accompanied with bias propaganda.

Again, love that guy. It's cool that he has his own channel.

- Well, thank you, we might have something in common after all :) .
- All Licensed Muslim Scholars share the same sentiment he does, as do I.

Yes, we do have a lot in common, we're both humans, and that is the one thing we share that is far more important than any ideology. If this guy were not a Islamic Scholar but was an atheist instead, he and Richard Dawkins would be best pals. They think alike.

Of course, I am still not sure why you believe that being a "Licensed Muslim Scholar" has any meaning whatsoever? Who cares? There is no authority governing the License other than the Quran and Hadiths, which anyone can read. It simply makes no sense.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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3/14/2015 5:37:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 10:43:50 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Yes, we do have a lot in common, we're both humans, and that is the one thing we share that is far more important than any ideology. If this guy were not a Islamic Scholar but was an atheist instead, he and Richard Dawkins would be best pals. They think alike.

- Nice words to hear from you, :)

Of course, I am still not sure why you believe that being a "Licensed Muslim Scholar" has any meaning whatsoever? Who cares? There is no authority governing the License other than the Quran and Hadiths, which anyone can read. It simply makes no sense.

- Well, yeah, anyone can read the Qur'an & Hadith, but only Licensed people have authority to express their opinions about it.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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3/14/2015 6:17:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 5:37:24 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/14/2015 10:43:50 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Yes, we do have a lot in common, we're both humans, and that is the one thing we share that is far more important than any ideology. If this guy were not a Islamic Scholar but was an atheist instead, he and Richard Dawkins would be best pals. They think alike.

- Nice words to hear from you, :)

Of course, I am still not sure why you believe that being a "Licensed Muslim Scholar" has any meaning whatsoever? Who cares? There is no authority governing the License other than the Quran and Hadiths, which anyone can read. It simply makes no sense.

- Well, yeah, anyone can read the Qur'an & Hadith, but only Licensed people have authority to express their opinions about it.

Sorry, but that isn't true at all, anyone can express their opinions on Islam just like you can express opinions on science, for example, even if you don't much about it.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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3/14/2015 10:13:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 6:17:53 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Sorry, but that isn't true at all, anyone can express their opinions on Islam just like you can express opinions on science, for example, even if you don't much about it.

- You are free to express your opinion, but that wouldn't make it a sound opinion or even an relevant one to the Islamic Tradition.

- The Prophet & his Companions set up a system of authority in Knowledge & Religion, & one must belong to that system to have such an authority.

Eg. the Prophet said: "Beware of narrating from me except what I taught you, for whoever lies about me on purpose, then let him take his seat in the Fire. And whoever says (something) about the Qur'an according to his (own) opinion, then let him take his seat in the Fire."
=> A muslim can read the Qur'an & Hadith, but has no right to express his opinions about their content without Knowledge.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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3/15/2015 9:41:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 10:13:51 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/14/2015 6:17:53 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Sorry, but that isn't true at all, anyone can express their opinions on Islam just like you can express opinions on science, for example, even if you don't much about it.

- You are free to express your opinion, but that wouldn't make it a sound opinion or even an relevant one to the Islamic Tradition.

Why not? So far, you've given no reason as to why one opinion is valid while the other is not, even though both have access to the same information?

Aren't you invoking a fallacy here?

- The Prophet & his Companions set up a system of authority in Knowledge & Religion, & one must belong to that system to have such an authority.

That certainly doesn't preclude the validity of an opinion outside that inner circle especially if the opinion is valid.

You just showed me a video in which I agreed with the "opinions" of a Muslim authority on American Constitutional and Freedom Rights. Are you trying to tell me he is also an authority of that? You're wielding a double edged sword, my friend.

Eg. the Prophet said: "Beware of narrating from me except what I taught you, for whoever lies about me on purpose, then let him take his seat in the Fire. And whoever says (something) about the Qur'an according to his (own) opinion, then let him take his seat in the Fire."
=> A muslim can read the Qur'an & Hadith, but has no right to express his opinions about their content without Knowledge.

Then, I am completely baffled as to why you or any other Muslim are here if you're talking about the Quran. We are not allowed to have an opinion, according to you, hence there is no basis for debate or discussion, other than a one way monologue from yourself.

As well, that decree about not having a right to express an opinion only serves to show Islam is man made. The idea is not to dictate as no one learns anything, there must be open discussion in order for folks to understand.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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3/15/2015 4:25:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 9:41:10 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/14/2015 10:13:51 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/14/2015 6:17:53 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Sorry, but that isn't true at all, anyone can express their opinions on Islam just like you can express opinions on science, for example, even if you don't much about it.

- You are free to express your opinion, but that wouldn't make it a sound opinion or even an relevant one to the Islamic Tradition.

Why not? So far, you've given no reason as to why one opinion is valid while the other is not, even though both have access to the same information?

Aren't you invoking a fallacy here?

- Islam is about Submission to God by following His messenger. & thus, being muslim means following Prophet Muhammad. However, all muslims with the exception of the Companions never witnessed the Prophet to follow him, & so, to follow him they have to go through those that were directly taught by him, understood his message & followed his footsteps: the Companions. & to follow the Companions, they need to follow those that were directly taught by them, understood the message of the Prophet conveyed to them, & followed their footsteps: the Successors (to the Companions), & so forth & so on.

- Being a muslim Scholar necessitate having a valid Sanad (Chain of Authority ) attached to your name that goes back to the Prophet. Meaning: you were taught by a scholar, who was taught by another, who was taught by another up to one of the Companions, who himself was taught by the Prophet. This way, we know the Message of the Prophet was conveyed faithfully from the Prophet himself down to the Scholar ; & thus, not anyone can come up & claim to have understood the Message without providing his Sanad. There is a Maxim attributed to one of the Successors that reads: "without Sanad, whoever wishes can claim whatever he wishes".

- Furthermore, the Companions didn't all agree on the same views about the Prophetic Message, they had many differences between them in the interpretation of Scripture: the Qur'an & Hadith. Consequently to that, Schools of Thought, which had different views & different Methodologies of dealing with Scripture, emerged amongst the Successors & those that Followed them. These Schools of Thought are those that constitute the Islamic Tradition, & thus any opinion that belongs to a School of Thought is a valid opinion, any opinion that doesn't belong to any School of Thought is an invalid one, as it doesn't count in the Islamic Tradition.

- Islam has 3 dimensions: 'Islam' (relating to one's actions), 'Iman' (relating to one's beliefs), "Ihsan" (relating to one's spirituality), each with its pillars. & thus the Islamic Tradition is in Three Dimensions:

1. The Physical Dimension: which deals with the body (actions & practices); it is described through the Sciences of Jurisprudence (Fiqh'). There are currently 5 major Legal Schools of Thought in the Muslim World: Maliki Madhab, Shafi'i Madhab, Hanafi Madhab, Hanbali Madhab (all Sunni) & Jaafari Madhab (Shia). (named after their respective founders in the 8th century, Madhab means School of Thought).

2- The Intellectual Dimension: which deals with the mind (beliefs & convictions), described through the Sciences of Theology ("Aqeedah" or "Kalam"). There are currently 3 major Theological Schools of Thought: Ash'ari Madhab (the majority: 88%), Athari Madhab (1.7%, Salafi adopted mainly by Saudi Arabia), Mu'tazili Madhab (~10%, Usuli adopted by the Shia).

3- The Spiritual Dimension: which deals with the soul (spirituality & intentions), described through the Sciences of Mysticism (called 'Tasawuf' or 'Sufism'). There are currently 5 major Mystic Schools of Thought: Junaidya, Rifa'ya, Shathilya, Qadirya & Tijanya.

- The Prophet & his Companions set up a system of authority in Knowledge & Religion, & one must belong to that system to have such an authority.

That certainly doesn't preclude the validity of an opinion outside that inner circle especially if the opinion is valid.

- Well, the opinion is valid if & only if it belongs to that 'inner circle'.

You just showed me a video in which I agreed with the "opinions" of a Muslim authority on American Constitutional and Freedom Rights. Are you trying to tell me he is also an authority of that? You're wielding a double edged sword, my friend.

- Actually, he is. He is an expert in both Shari'a Law & Civil Law, plus in Legal Theory, in Political Science, & a bunch of other things.
- Nonetheless, his opinions about the American Constitution are valid within the Islamic Tradition, not necessarily valid within the US courts.
- If you happen to agree with his "opinions" (or even disagree), that wouldn't affect in any way their validity in the Islamic Tradition.

Eg. the Prophet said: "Beware of narrating from me except what I taught you, for whoever lies about me on purpose, then let him take his seat in the Fire. And whoever says (something) about the Qur'an according to his (own) opinion, then let him take his seat in the Fire."
=> A muslim can read the Qur'an & Hadith, but has no right to express his opinions about their content without Knowledge.

Then, I am completely baffled as to why you or any other Muslim are here if you're talking about the Quran. We are not allowed to have an opinion, according to you, hence there is no basis for debate or discussion, other than a one way monologue from yourself.

- You're not a muslim, you are entitled to your own opinion, but that doesn't make it a valid one, or even a relevant one.
- What I said is: "A muslim can read the Qur'an & Hadith, but has no right to express his opinions about their content without Knowledge."
- Anything I say in this Forum or in real life about the Qur'an or Hadith is undoubtedly NOT my personal opinion, all I say is taken from Scholars, & scholars only.
- A proper debate or discussion can go either of two ways:
1. Between Scholars.
2. Between non scholars, & in this case, the only opinions that are allowed to be discussed are those expressed by Scholars. Inventing new opinions is fruitless.

As well, that decree about not having a right to express an opinion only serves to show Islam is man made. The idea is not to dictate as no one learns anything, there must be open discussion in order for folks to understand.

- In the Islamic Tradition, the only discourse about knowledge that is allowed is that which is between the people of Knowledge, no matter what their affiliations are. If you know what you're talking about, then your opinion matters. If you don't know what you're talking about, either go learn & come back or go home. Not any Tom, Dick or Harry can come up say whatever & expect his opinions to be respected!

- Not having the proper Knowledge & the proper Authority results in having people like ISIS & Boko Haram thinking however they please about Islam!
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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3/15/2015 4:53:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 4:25:56 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/15/2015 9:41:10 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/14/2015 10:13:51 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/14/2015 6:17:53 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Sorry, but that isn't true at all, anyone can express their opinions on Islam just like you can express opinions on science, for example, even if you don't much about it.

- You are free to express your opinion, but that wouldn't make it a sound opinion or even an relevant one to the Islamic Tradition.

Why not? So far, you've given no reason as to why one opinion is valid while the other is not, even though both have access to the same information?

Aren't you invoking a fallacy here?

- Islam is about Submission to God by following His messenger. & thus, being muslim means following Prophet Muhammad. However, all muslims with the exception of the Companions never witnessed the Prophet to follow him, & so, to follow him they have to go through those that were directly taught by him, understood his message & followed his footsteps: the Companions. & to follow the Companions, they need to follow those that were directly taught by them, understood the message of the Prophet conveyed to them, & followed their footsteps: the Successors (to the Companions), & so forth & so on.

- Being a muslim Scholar necessitate having a valid Sanad (Chain of Authority ) attached to your name that goes back to the Prophet. Meaning: you were taught by a scholar, who was taught by another, who was taught by another up to one of the Companions, who himself was taught by the Prophet. This way, we know the Message of the Prophet was conveyed faithfully from the Prophet himself down to the Scholar ; & thus, not anyone can come up & claim to have understood the Message without providing his Sanad. There is a Maxim attributed to one of the Successors that reads: "without Sanad, whoever wishes can claim whatever he wishes".

- Furthermore, the Companions didn't all agree on the same views about the Prophetic Message, they had many differences between them in the interpretation of Scripture: the Qur'an & Hadith. Consequently to that, Schools of Thought, which had different views & different Methodologies of dealing with Scripture, emerged amongst the Successors & those that Followed them. These Schools of Thought are those that constitute the Islamic Tradition, & thus any opinion that belongs to a School of Thought is a valid opinion, any opinion that doesn't belong to any School of Thought is an invalid one, as it doesn't count in the Islamic Tradition.

- Islam has 3 dimensions: 'Islam' (relating to one's actions), 'Iman' (relating to one's beliefs), "Ihsan" (relating to one's spirituality), each with its pillars. & thus the Islamic Tradition is in Three Dimensions:

1. The Physical Dimension: which deals with the body (actions & practices); it is described through the Sciences of Jurisprudence (Fiqh'). There are currently 5 major Legal Schools of Thought in the Muslim World: Maliki Madhab, Shafi'i Madhab, Hanafi Madhab, Hanbali Madhab (all Sunni) & Jaafari Madhab (Shia). (named after their respective founders in the 8th century, Madhab means School of Thought).

2- The Intellectual Dimension: which deals with the mind (beliefs & convictions), described through the Sciences of Theology ("Aqeedah" or "Kalam"). There are currently 3 major Theological Schools of Thought: Ash'ari Madhab (the majority: 88%), Athari Madhab (1.7%, Salafi adopted mainly by Saudi Arabia), Mu'tazili Madhab (~10%, Usuli adopted by the Shia).

3- The Spiritual Dimension: which deals with the soul (spirituality & intentions), described through the Sciences of Mysticism (called 'Tasawuf' or 'Sufism'). There are currently 5 major Mystic Schools of Thought: Junaidya, Rifa'ya, Shathilya, Qadirya & Tijanya.

- The Prophet & his Companions set up a system of authority in Knowledge & Religion, & one must belong to that system to have such an authority.

That certainly doesn't preclude the validity of an opinion outside that inner circle especially if the opinion is valid.

- Well, the opinion is valid if & only if it belongs to that 'inner circle'.

That's the definition of corruption, not validity. A most ridiculous system, it's a good thing the rest of world doesn't operate that way. It's easy to see how it would stifle thought, reason, logic, learning. etc.

You just showed me a video in which I agreed with the "opinions" of a Muslim authority on American Constitutional and Freedom Rights. Are you trying to tell me he is also an authority of that? You're wielding a double edged sword, my friend.

- Actually, he is. He is an expert in both Shari'a Law & Civil Law, plus in Legal Theory, in Political Science, & a bunch of other things.
- Nonetheless, his opinions about the American Constitution are valid within the Islamic Tradition, not necessarily valid within the US courts.

LOL. Yes, the double-edged sword.

- If you happen to agree with his "opinions" (or even disagree), that wouldn't affect in any way their validity in the Islamic Tradition.

Of course not, the Islamic Tradition is corrupted.

Eg. the Prophet said: "Beware of narrating from me except what I taught you, for whoever lies about me on purpose, then let him take his seat in the Fire. And whoever says (something) about the Qur'an according to his (own) opinion, then let him take his seat in the Fire."
=> A muslim can read the Qur'an & Hadith, but has no right to express his opinions about their content without Knowledge.

Then, I am completely baffled as to why you or any other Muslim are here if you're talking about the Quran. We are not allowed to have an opinion, according to you, hence there is no basis for debate or discussion, other than a one way monologue from yourself.

- You're not a muslim, you are entitled to your own opinion, but that doesn't make it a valid one, or even a relevant one.

Corruption.

- What I said is: "A muslim can read the Qur'an & Hadith, but has no right to express his opinions about their content without Knowledge."
- Anything I say in this Forum or in real life about the Qur'an or Hadith is undoubtedly NOT my personal opinion, all I say is taken from Scholars, & scholars only.
- A proper debate or discussion can go either of two ways:
1. Between Scholars.
2. Between non scholars, & in this case, the only opinions that are allowed to be discussed are those expressed by Scholars. Inventing new opinions is fruitless.

Corruption.

As well, that decree about not having a right to express an opinion only serves to show Islam is man made. The idea is not to dictate as no one learns anything, there must be open discussion in order for folks to understand.

- In the Islamic Tradition, the only discourse about knowledge that is allowed is that which is between the people of Knowledge, no matter what their affiliations are. If you know what you're talking about, then your opinion matters. If you don't know what you're talking about, either go learn & come back or go home. Not any Tom, Dick or Harry can come up say whatever & expect his opinions to be respected!

Sorry, but it has nothing to do with learning and everything to do with cronyism

- Not having the proper Knowledge & the proper Authority results in having people like ISIS & Boko Haram thinking however they please about Islam!

The result of corruption.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth