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Should anyone be an atheist?

Benshapiro
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3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/13/2015 8:14:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

I'm an atheist because I desire to believe true things. That is the single most important reason I'm an atheist. Looking forward to your response.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,941
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3/13/2015 8:23:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 8:14:03 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

I'm an atheist because I desire to believe true things. That is the single most important reason I'm an atheist. Looking forward to your response.

Do you believe that truth value is arbitrary or objective?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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3/13/2015 8:31:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

Explain what you mean by "should".
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,941
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3/13/2015 8:33:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 8:31:35 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

Explain what you mean by "should".

Ought. Idealistically.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/13/2015 8:36:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 8:23:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:14:03 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

I'm an atheist because I desire to believe true things. That is the single most important reason I'm an atheist. Looking forward to your response.

Do you believe that truth value is arbitrary or objective?

I believe objective truth exists, but it is beyond what humans can know. I think the best humans can do is, "what is most likely true." I consider truth from the human perspective to be a matter of probability.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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3/13/2015 8:36:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 8:33:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:31:35 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

Explain what you mean by "should".

Ought. Idealistically.

So you're asking why would someone find it ideal to be an atheist... correct?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,941
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3/13/2015 8:38:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 8:36:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:23:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:14:03 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

I'm an atheist because I desire to believe true things. That is the single most important reason I'm an atheist. Looking forward to your response.

Do you believe that truth value is arbitrary or objective?

I believe objective truth exists, but it is beyond what humans can know. I think the best humans can do is, "what is most likely true." I consider truth from the human perspective to be a matter of probability.

I'm asking if truth *value* is arbitrary or objective.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/13/2015 8:40:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 8:38:31 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:36:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:23:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:14:03 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

I'm an atheist because I desire to believe true things. That is the single most important reason I'm an atheist. Looking forward to your response.

Do you believe that truth value is arbitrary or objective?

I believe objective truth exists, but it is beyond what humans can know. I think the best humans can do is, "what is most likely true." I consider truth from the human perspective to be a matter of probability.

I'm asking if truth *value* is arbitrary or objective.

Define truth *value*
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,941
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3/13/2015 8:44:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 8:36:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:33:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:31:35 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

Explain what you mean by "should".

Ought. Idealistically.

So you're asking why would someone find it ideal to be an atheist... correct?

No. I'm asking why anyone should/ought/ideally subscribe to an atheistic worldview.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,941
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3/13/2015 8:46:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 8:40:15 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:38:31 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:36:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:23:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:14:03 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

I'm an atheist because I desire to believe true things. That is the single most important reason I'm an atheist. Looking forward to your response.

Do you believe that truth value is arbitrary or objective?

I believe objective truth exists, but it is beyond what humans can know. I think the best humans can do is, "what is most likely true." I consider truth from the human perspective to be a matter of probability.

I'm asking if truth *value* is arbitrary or objective.

Define truth *value*

Is "truth" inherently more desirable than non-truth..
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/13/2015 8:51:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 8:46:52 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:40:15 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:38:31 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:36:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:23:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:14:03 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

I'm an atheist because I desire to believe true things. That is the single most important reason I'm an atheist. Looking forward to your response.

Do you believe that truth value is arbitrary or objective?

I believe objective truth exists, but it is beyond what humans can know. I think the best humans can do is, "what is most likely true." I consider truth from the human perspective to be a matter of probability.

I'm asking if truth *value* is arbitrary or objective.

Define truth *value*

Is "truth" inherently more desirable than non-truth..

For me it is. For the believers, I don't think they care about truth at all. Does truth matter to you? Do you find it desirable? How do you determine what is true?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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3/13/2015 8:53:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 8:44:58 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:36:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:33:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:31:35 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

Explain what you mean by "should".

Ought. Idealistically.

So you're asking why would someone find it ideal to be an atheist... correct?

No. I'm asking why anyone should/ought/ideally subscribe to an atheistic worldview.

You're not making sense. "Should" has different applications, that's why I asked you to clarify. "Ought" is typically tied to moral obligation, so it sounds like you're asking why anyone would feel morally obligated to be an atheist. But that is too silly to assume is what you are asking so I latched onto ideally, which is a term regarding preference. So by using ideally it sounds like you're asking why someone would find it ideal.

This isn't a matter of me trying to use semantics, it's a matter of being clear which requires one to use English correctly (a typical problem in your arguments). Please explain clearly what you're asking.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,941
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3/13/2015 9:08:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 8:53:09 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:44:58 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:36:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:33:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:31:35 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

Explain what you mean by "should".

Ought. Idealistically.

So you're asking why would someone find it ideal to be an atheist... correct?

No. I'm asking why anyone should/ought/ideally subscribe to an atheistic worldview.

You're not making sense. "Should" has different applications, that's why I asked you to clarify. "Ought" is typically tied to moral obligation, so it sounds like you're asking why anyone would feel morally obligated to be an atheist. But that is too silly to assume is what you are asking so I latched onto ideally, which is a term regarding preference. So by using ideally it sounds like you're asking why someone would find it ideal.

This isn't a matter of me trying to use semantics, it's a matter of being clear which requires one to use English correctly (a typical problem in your arguments). Please explain clearly what you're asking.

I'll make it real simple: Why is an atheistic worldview preferable to any other worldview?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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3/13/2015 9:18:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 9:08:30 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:53:09 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:44:58 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:36:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:33:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:31:35 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

Explain what you mean by "should".

Ought. Idealistically.

So you're asking why would someone find it ideal to be an atheist... correct?

No. I'm asking why anyone should/ought/ideally subscribe to an atheistic worldview.

You're not making sense. "Should" has different applications, that's why I asked you to clarify. "Ought" is typically tied to moral obligation, so it sounds like you're asking why anyone would feel morally obligated to be an atheist. But that is too silly to assume is what you are asking so I latched onto ideally, which is a term regarding preference. So by using ideally it sounds like you're asking why someone would find it ideal.

This isn't a matter of me trying to use semantics, it's a matter of being clear which requires one to use English correctly (a typical problem in your arguments). Please explain clearly what you're asking.

I'll make it real simple: Why is an atheistic worldview preferable to any other worldview?

Great, nice and simple.

Answer: I don't think it is. I found it much more enjoyable to believe that I was going to live forever and see my father and everyone else I have lost and will lose someday in a paradise designed for my eternal pleasure. It's a nice fantasy.

Unfortunately for me my mind doesn't work that way. I don't pick and choose what I believe to be true. My mind is persuaded by reason and logic. I can pretend to believe things I want to believe, but I am not capable of shutting down my mind to reason and convincing myself of that which has no justification so it would be a silly and unsuccessful game for me. And then there is also my desire to believe what is actually true... yea, that makes it even more difficult.

Most theists don't seem to have these problems, which is evident by the fact that we atheists are always asked why we would want to believe what we do... as if it is about preference. That demonstrates a clear priority of fantasy over reality, which makes rational discussion very difficult.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,941
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3/13/2015 9:20:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 8:51:03 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:46:52 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:40:15 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:38:31 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:36:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:23:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:14:03 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

I'm an atheist because I desire to believe true things. That is the single most important reason I'm an atheist. Looking forward to your response.

Do you believe that truth value is arbitrary or objective?

I believe objective truth exists, but it is beyond what humans can know. I think the best humans can do is, "what is most likely true." I consider truth from the human perspective to be a matter of probability.

I'm asking if truth *value* is arbitrary or objective.

Define truth *value*

Is "truth" inherently more desirable than non-truth..

For me it is. For the believers, I don't think they care about truth at all. Does truth matter to you? Do you find it desirable? How do you determine what is true?

I recognize that truth has objective value. It's inherently desirable. Whatever is true aligns with reality. "Value" is a judgement of importance or worth. If human beings exist for no reason and for no purpose, how can anything have *inherent* or *objective* importance or worth in a universe where nothing has inherent or objective importance/worth?
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/13/2015 9:20:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What does preference have to do with any worldview? Are we just supposed to believe things we prefer to believe? That seems rather childish.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,941
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3/13/2015 9:23:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 9:18:07 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:08:30 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:53:09 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:44:58 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:36:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:33:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:31:35 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

Explain what you mean by "should".

Ought. Idealistically.

So you're asking why would someone find it ideal to be an atheist... correct?

No. I'm asking why anyone should/ought/ideally subscribe to an atheistic worldview.

You're not making sense. "Should" has different applications, that's why I asked you to clarify. "Ought" is typically tied to moral obligation, so it sounds like you're asking why anyone would feel morally obligated to be an atheist. But that is too silly to assume is what you are asking so I latched onto ideally, which is a term regarding preference. So by using ideally it sounds like you're asking why someone would find it ideal.

This isn't a matter of me trying to use semantics, it's a matter of being clear which requires one to use English correctly (a typical problem in your arguments). Please explain clearly what you're asking.

I'll make it real simple: Why is an atheistic worldview preferable to any other worldview?

Great, nice and simple.

Answer: I don't think it is. I found it much more enjoyable to believe that I was going to live forever and see my father and everyone else I have lost and will lose someday in a paradise designed for my eternal pleasure. It's a nice fantasy.

Unfortunately for me my mind doesn't work that way. I don't pick and choose what I believe to be true. My mind is persuaded by reason and logic. I can pretend to believe things I want to believe, but I am not capable of shutting down my mind to reason and convincing myself of that which has no justification so it would be a silly and unsuccessful game for me. And then there is also my desire to believe what is actually true... yea, that makes it even more difficult.

Most theists don't seem to have these problems, which is evident by the fact that we atheists are always asked why we would want to believe what we do... as if it is about preference. That demonstrates a clear priority of fantasy over reality, which makes rational discussion very difficult.

You have a definitive preference for truth. Is truth value objective or arbitrary?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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3/13/2015 9:24:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 9:23:28 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:18:07 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:08:30 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:53:09 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:44:58 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:36:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:33:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:31:35 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

Explain what you mean by "should".

Ought. Idealistically.

So you're asking why would someone find it ideal to be an atheist... correct?

No. I'm asking why anyone should/ought/ideally subscribe to an atheistic worldview.

You're not making sense. "Should" has different applications, that's why I asked you to clarify. "Ought" is typically tied to moral obligation, so it sounds like you're asking why anyone would feel morally obligated to be an atheist. But that is too silly to assume is what you are asking so I latched onto ideally, which is a term regarding preference. So by using ideally it sounds like you're asking why someone would find it ideal.

This isn't a matter of me trying to use semantics, it's a matter of being clear which requires one to use English correctly (a typical problem in your arguments). Please explain clearly what you're asking.

I'll make it real simple: Why is an atheistic worldview preferable to any other worldview?

Great, nice and simple.

Answer: I don't think it is. I found it much more enjoyable to believe that I was going to live forever and see my father and everyone else I have lost and will lose someday in a paradise designed for my eternal pleasure. It's a nice fantasy.

Unfortunately for me my mind doesn't work that way. I don't pick and choose what I believe to be true. My mind is persuaded by reason and logic. I can pretend to believe things I want to believe, but I am not capable of shutting down my mind to reason and convincing myself of that which has no justification so it would be a silly and unsuccessful game for me. And then there is also my desire to believe what is actually true... yea, that makes it even more difficult.

Most theists don't seem to have these problems, which is evident by the fact that we atheists are always asked why we would want to believe what we do... as if it is about preference. That demonstrates a clear priority of fantasy over reality, which makes rational discussion very difficult.

You have a definitive preference for truth. Is truth value objective or arbitrary?

If by true you mean "consistent with reality", then it is objective.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,941
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3/13/2015 9:26:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 9:20:12 PM, NoMagic wrote:
What does preference have to do with any worldview? Are we just supposed to believe things we prefer to believe? That seems rather childish.

I'm asking what incentives would lead anyone to prefer an atheistic worldview over any other worldview. The reason atheists adhere to an atheistic worldview is because they believe its true. Well what value does the truth have? Towards what end? Don't we exist for no reason?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,941
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3/13/2015 9:27:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 9:24:52 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:23:28 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:18:07 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:08:30 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:53:09 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:44:58 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:36:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:33:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:31:35 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

Explain what you mean by "should".

Ought. Idealistically.

So you're asking why would someone find it ideal to be an atheist... correct?

No. I'm asking why anyone should/ought/ideally subscribe to an atheistic worldview.

You're not making sense. "Should" has different applications, that's why I asked you to clarify. "Ought" is typically tied to moral obligation, so it sounds like you're asking why anyone would feel morally obligated to be an atheist. But that is too silly to assume is what you are asking so I latched onto ideally, which is a term regarding preference. So by using ideally it sounds like you're asking why someone would find it ideal.

This isn't a matter of me trying to use semantics, it's a matter of being clear which requires one to use English correctly (a typical problem in your arguments). Please explain clearly what you're asking.

I'll make it real simple: Why is an atheistic worldview preferable to any other worldview?

Great, nice and simple.

Answer: I don't think it is. I found it much more enjoyable to believe that I was going to live forever and see my father and everyone else I have lost and will lose someday in a paradise designed for my eternal pleasure. It's a nice fantasy.

Unfortunately for me my mind doesn't work that way. I don't pick and choose what I believe to be true. My mind is persuaded by reason and logic. I can pretend to believe things I want to believe, but I am not capable of shutting down my mind to reason and convincing myself of that which has no justification so it would be a silly and unsuccessful game for me. And then there is also my desire to believe what is actually true... yea, that makes it even more difficult.

Most theists don't seem to have these problems, which is evident by the fact that we atheists are always asked why we would want to believe what we do... as if it is about preference. That demonstrates a clear priority of fantasy over reality, which makes rational discussion very difficult.

You have a definitive preference for truth. Is truth value objective or arbitrary?

If by true you mean "consistent with reality", then it is objective.

That's not what I asked. Is truth *value* objective or arbitrary?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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3/13/2015 9:31:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 9:27:00 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:24:52 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:23:28 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
You have a definitive preference for truth. Is truth value objective or arbitrary?

If by true you mean "consistent with reality", then it is objective.

That's not what I asked. Is truth *value* objective or arbitrary?

The term *truth value* normally refers to the actual truth of a proposition, and in that context "true" means "consistent with reality".

However if by "value" you are referring to what I prefer then that is subjective, aka arbitrary.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/13/2015 9:33:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 9:20:08 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:51:03 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:46:52 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:40:15 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:38:31 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:36:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:23:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:14:03 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

I'm an atheist because I desire to believe true things. That is the single most important reason I'm an atheist. Looking forward to your response.

Do you believe that truth value is arbitrary or objective?

I believe objective truth exists, but it is beyond what humans can know. I think the best humans can do is, "what is most likely true." I consider truth from the human perspective to be a matter of probability.

I'm asking if truth *value* is arbitrary or objective.

Define truth *value*

Is "truth" inherently more desirable than non-truth..

For me it is. For the believers, I don't think they care about truth at all. Does truth matter to you? Do you find it desirable? How do you determine what is true?

I recognize that truth has objective value. It's inherently desirable. Whatever is true aligns with reality. "Value" is a judgement of importance or worth. If human beings exist for no reason and for no purpose, how can anything have *inherent* or *objective* importance or worth in a universe where nothing has inherent or objective importance/worth?

You seem to be working from the premise that we can't establish these things that relate to humans ourselves. Why do you think that?

How do you go about determining what is likely true?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,941
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3/13/2015 9:37:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 9:31:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:27:00 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:24:52 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:23:28 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
You have a definitive preference for truth. Is truth value objective or arbitrary?

If by true you mean "consistent with reality", then it is objective.

That's not what I asked. Is truth *value* objective or arbitrary?

The term *truth value* normally refers to the actual truth of a proposition, and in that context "true" means "consistent with reality".

However if by "value" you are referring to what I prefer then that is subjective, aka arbitrary.

Arbitrarily. I believe that answers my question.
Benshapiro
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3/13/2015 9:41:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 9:33:25 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:20:08 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:51:03 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:46:52 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:40:15 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:38:31 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:36:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:23:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:14:03 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

I'm an atheist because I desire to believe true things. That is the single most important reason I'm an atheist. Looking forward to your response.

Do you believe that truth value is arbitrary or objective?

I believe objective truth exists, but it is beyond what humans can know. I think the best humans can do is, "what is most likely true." I consider truth from the human perspective to be a matter of probability.

I'm asking if truth *value* is arbitrary or objective.

Define truth *value*

Is "truth" inherently more desirable than non-truth..

For me it is. For the believers, I don't think they care about truth at all. Does truth matter to you? Do you find it desirable? How do you determine what is true?

I recognize that truth has objective value. It's inherently desirable. Whatever is true aligns with reality. "Value" is a judgement of importance or worth. If human beings exist for no reason and for no purpose, how can anything have *inherent* or *objective* importance or worth in a universe where nothing has inherent or objective importance/worth?

You seem to be working from the premise that we can't establish these things that relate to humans ourselves. Why do you think that?

How do you go about determining what is likely true?

What do you mean by your first question? I'm not understanding it.

Determine what is true isnt the issue. It's why we should care one way or another.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/13/2015 9:41:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 9:26:08 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:20:12 PM, NoMagic wrote:
What does preference have to do with any worldview? Are we just supposed to believe things we prefer to believe? That seems rather childish.

I'm asking what incentives would lead anyone to prefer an atheistic worldview over any other worldview. The reason atheists adhere to an atheistic worldview is because they believe its true. Well what value does the truth have? Towards what end? Don't we exist for no reason?

Lets say we exist for no reason. I'll even grant that we may not prefer that as a truth. But, we don't get to decide what is true. So lets just work from the position that we don't exist for any reason. We just happen to be here due to some natural process that we don't completely understand yet.
What should we do under that world? Can we decide for ourselves what things we value? Can we decide for ourselves our own interspecies behavior? Can we answer your question, "what value does truth have?" Maybe the answer to all these questions are, "those are things we should think about, discuss, and draw our own conclusions." Would that be reasonable?
Double_R
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3/13/2015 9:41:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 9:37:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:31:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:27:00 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:24:52 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:23:28 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
You have a definitive preference for truth. Is truth value objective or arbitrary?

If by true you mean "consistent with reality", then it is objective.

That's not what I asked. Is truth *value* objective or arbitrary?

The term *truth value* normally refers to the actual truth of a proposition, and in that context "true" means "consistent with reality".

However if by "value" you are referring to what I prefer then that is subjective, aka arbitrary.

Arbitrarily. I believe that answers my question.

Then I wonder what your point here is. You start a thread asking us what we prefer then ask us whether we find our preferences arbitrary. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the validity of our position except to demonstrate that you have no concern about it.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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3/13/2015 9:44:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 9:41:29 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Determine what is true isnt the issue. It's why we should care one way or another.

You realize that this statement disqualifies you from rational discourse right?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,941
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3/13/2015 9:46:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 9:41:55 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:37:25 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:31:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:27:00 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:24:52 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:23:28 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
You have a definitive preference for truth. Is truth value objective or arbitrary?

If by true you mean "consistent with reality", then it is objective.

That's not what I asked. Is truth *value* objective or arbitrary?

The term *truth value* normally refers to the actual truth of a proposition, and in that context "true" means "consistent with reality".

However if by "value" you are referring to what I prefer then that is subjective, aka arbitrary.

Arbitrarily. I believe that answers my question.

Then I wonder what your point here is. You start a thread asking us what we prefer then ask us whether we find our preferences arbitrary. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the validity of our position except to demonstrate that you have no concern about it.

I asked why atheism is preferable to any other worldview.

You said because it's true.

Then I asked if truth value was objective or arbitrary.

You said arbitrary.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/13/2015 9:50:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/13/2015 9:41:29 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:33:25 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 9:20:08 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:51:03 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:46:52 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:40:15 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:38:31 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:36:20 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:23:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:14:03 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/13/2015 8:06:36 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
As a preface: an atheistic worldview necessarily entails that humanity exists for no reason at all.

Name one reason why anyone *should* be an atheist. I hope you anticipate what my repsonse is going to be. Go.

I'm an atheist because I desire to believe true things. That is the single most important reason I'm an atheist. Looking forward to your response.

Do you believe that truth value is arbitrary or objective?

I believe objective truth exists, but it is beyond what humans can know. I think the best humans can do is, "what is most likely true." I consider truth from the human perspective to be a matter of probability.

I'm asking if truth *value* is arbitrary or objective.

Define truth *value*

Is "truth" inherently more desirable than non-truth..

For me it is. For the believers, I don't think they care about truth at all. Does truth matter to you? Do you find it desirable? How do you determine what is true?

I recognize that truth has objective value. It's inherently desirable. Whatever is true aligns with reality. "Value" is a judgement of importance or worth. If human beings exist for no reason and for no purpose, how can anything have *inherent* or *objective* importance or worth in a universe where nothing has inherent or objective importance/worth?

You seem to be working from the premise that we can't establish these things that relate to humans ourselves. Why do you think that?

How do you go about determining what is likely true?

What do you mean by your first question? I'm not understanding it.

Determine what is true isnt the issue. It's why we should care one way or another.

The way in which you ask these questions, leads me to think, you think humans can't answer these questions and we then must appeal to some authority that remains silent, which presents it's own problems, due to that unending silence. If I'm reading you correctly, I'm wondering why you think we can't answer those questions ourselves. So, if I'm correct, why do you think that?

Why should we care? Well maybe some don't care. I've heard believers who say they don't care if their beliefs are true, they make them happy and that is good for them. I care about truth, because I want to believe true things, I want to understand the world I live in, I want to know what I am, and I don't wish to be tricked. Now I'm guessing your going to say, "well why do you care about those things." My response here would be, "I don't have to justify why I care, I care, and that is what is important to me."

You said you care about truth. Since you say you care, I would like to know how you go about determining what is probably true?