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Religous variation, what explains it best?

NoMagic
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3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,328
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3/15/2015 4:30:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

First of all we have to realize that a good portion is probably just made up, such as the "greek gods" and the myth stories ect.. There are MANY spirits that's why there are many spiritual experiences, most probably made up while some being legit. As far as the Christian denominations it's not too hard to imagine what happened, people have different views and different preferences while most actually have nothing to do with major differences in doctrine just minor opinions.
People like to confuse the subject by claiming there are "thousands" of denominations when there is only one definition of a Christian. I personally am non denominational and I have no problem with any body joining a particular sect, because maybe some one like me prefers more than just a sitting in a Baptist church while someone else may love it, that's fine with me the problem I do have is when the idiots of a certain denomination declares everyone else is goin to Hell, that's where the satanic influence settles in, the body and believers are to have no DIVISIONS, we are to be of one mind and one accord I can show you in scripture flat out anything less is complete garbage and control. This is the fault of people not scripture.

If someone like me and you were to approach the scriptures I believe we would have no problems finding the truth, it's when people put religion before God and make confusing things that were meant simple.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/15/2015 5:08:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 4:30:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

First of all we have to realize that a good portion is probably just made up, such as the "greek gods" and the myth stories ect.. There are MANY spirits that's why there are many spiritual experiences, most probably made up while some being legit.

Why do you think the Greek gods are made up?
Are all spirits under one unified religious perspective? If yes, then why don't they communicate this one message?
"Some being legit." Do you think there are multiple gods? A variation of option 3.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,328
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3/15/2015 5:20:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 5:08:33 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:30:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

First of all we have to realize that a good portion is probably just made up, such as the "greek gods" and the myth stories ect.. There are MANY spirits that's why there are many spiritual experiences, most probably made up while some being legit.

Why do you think the Greek gods are made up?

Do you really need me to explain this lol?

Are all spirits under one unified religious perspective? If yes, then why don't they communicate this one message?
"Some being legit." Do you think there are multiple gods? A variation of option 3.

No they are not unified. Different spirits reveal different things, but there is only one Spirit of God, but there are principalities set up on this earth, not all of God.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/15/2015 5:47:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 5:20:44 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:08:33 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:30:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

First of all we have to realize that a good portion is probably just made up, such as the "greek gods" and the myth stories ect.. There are MANY spirits that's why there are many spiritual experiences, most probably made up while some being legit.

Why do you think the Greek gods are made up?

Do you really need me to explain this lol?

I would like you to. I get why it may seem as an absurd question, but they were very real to the Greeks, just as your god is very real to you. So can you tell me why you don't think these Greek gods existed?

Are all spirits under one unified religious perspective? If yes, then why don't they communicate this one message?
"Some being legit." Do you think there are multiple gods? A variation of option 3.

No they are not unified. Different spirits reveal different things, but there is only one Spirit of God, but there are principalities set up on this earth, not all of God.

I'm a bit confused there. "No they are not unified" and "there is only one spirit of god." Seems they must be unified, if there is only one "spirit of god." Have these "spirits" led others to wrong gods?

Why do you reject the existence of all the other gods humans have worshiped, including the Greek gods?
YassineB
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3/15/2015 5:53:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

- THIS.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
NoMagic
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3/15/2015 5:59:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 5:53:14 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

- THIS.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

I'm thinking "THIS" means option two. I'll work from that unless you correct me. If we are so bad at understanding this message, and we get it wrong most of the time, why should we trust any religious claim? If 99% of all religious claims are wrong due to incorrect understanding by humans, then none warrant trust. We simply cannot rely on them, humans. Based on two, we should reject all human claims. Do you agree?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,328
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3/15/2015 6:02:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 5:47:38 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:20:44 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:08:33 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:30:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

First of all we have to realize that a good portion is probably just made up, such as the "greek gods" and the myth stories ect.. There are MANY spirits that's why there are many spiritual experiences, most probably made up while some being legit.

Why do you think the Greek gods are made up?

Do you really need me to explain this lol?

I would like you to. I get why it may seem as an absurd question, but they were very real to the Greeks, just as your god is very real to you. So can you tell me why you don't think these Greek gods existed?

Are all spirits under one unified religious perspective? If yes, then why don't they communicate this one message?
"Some being legit." Do you think there are multiple gods? A variation of option 3.

No they are not unified. Different spirits reveal different things, but there is only one Spirit of God, but there are principalities set up on this earth, not all of God.

I'm a bit confused there. "No they are not unified" and "there is only one spirit of god." Seems they must be unified, if there is only one "spirit of god." Have these "spirits" led others to wrong gods?

There is only "one Spirit of God", meaning there is only one God that is His Spirit, however there are many spirits on the earth. Yes these spirits represent false gods, in other words they are worshipped because they have retained rightful place. They have retained that place because of vessels, vessels then worship that spirit.

Why do you reject the existence of all the other gods humans have worshiped, including the Greek gods?

There is nothing that connects them to reality, if you want to dispute that then go ahead, I have neither the time nor the desire, you're just going to have to accept that I'm a Christian for a reason. I don't "reject" them, I have no reason to believe in them. Unless you would like to suggest otherwise, and if you do I'm going to hold you to it.
YassineB
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3/15/2015 6:03:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 5:59:21 PM, NoMagic wrote:
I'm thinking "THIS" means option two. I'll work from that unless you correct me.

- Yes, it is.

If we are so bad at understanding this message, and we get it wrong most of the time, why should we trust any religious claim? If 99% of all religious claims are wrong due to incorrect understanding by humans, then none warrant trust. We simply cannot rely on them, humans. Based on two, we should reject all human claims. Do you agree?

- Whether we reject or accept a religion, we must substantiate either actions with Reason. We have to use our intellect to determine which religion is true & which isn't. Not because most are probably false, all must be false.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/15/2015 6:32:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 6:03:05 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:59:21 PM, NoMagic wrote:
I'm thinking "THIS" means option two. I'll work from that unless you correct me.

- Yes, it is.

If we are so bad at understanding this message, and we get it wrong most of the time, why should we trust any religious claim? If 99% of all religious claims are wrong due to incorrect understanding by humans, then none warrant trust. We simply cannot rely on them, humans. Based on two, we should reject all human claims. Do you agree?

- Whether we reject or accept a religion, we must substantiate either actions with Reason. We have to use our intellect to determine which religion is true & which isn't. Not because most are probably false, all must be false.

I agree reason should be applied. So let's apply it. If the vast majority of religious claims have been wrong, based on reason, then religious claims should be viewed with incredible skepticism. Do you think this sentence reflects a thought based on reason?
Also, prior probability is a logically valid practice. So lets apply this method of reasoning. If we walk through a parking lot of cars, let's say 5000 cars, (cars represent some historic god or religion) and as you and I pass each car, we say, this car is the product of humans, we agree on each car, then you and I come to the final car (Islam and the god of the Jews) if we stated that the 4999 other cars are the product of humans, it stands to reason, with a high degree of probability, that the last car is also a product of man. Is this view based on reason in your opinion?
YassineB
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3/15/2015 6:34:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 6:32:11 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:03:05 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:59:21 PM, NoMagic wrote:
I'm thinking "THIS" means option two. I'll work from that unless you correct me.

- Yes, it is.

If we are so bad at understanding this message, and we get it wrong most of the time, why should we trust any religious claim? If 99% of all religious claims are wrong due to incorrect understanding by humans, then none warrant trust. We simply cannot rely on them, humans. Based on two, we should reject all human claims. Do you agree?

- Whether we reject or accept a religion, we must substantiate either actions with Reason. We have to use our intellect to determine which religion is true & which isn't. Not because most are probably false, all must be false.

I agree reason should be applied. So let's apply it. If the vast majority of religious claims have been wrong, based on reason, then religious claims should be viewed with incredible skepticism. Do you think this sentence reflects a thought based on reason?
Also, prior probability is a logically valid practice. So lets apply this method of reasoning. If we walk through a parking lot of cars, let's say 5000 cars, (cars represent some historic god or religion) and as you and I pass each car, we say, this car is the product of humans, we agree on each car, then you and I come to the final car (Islam and the god of the Jews) if we stated that the 4999 other cars are the product of humans, it stands to reason, with a high degree of probability, that the last car is also a product of man. Is this view based on reason in your opinion?

- I don't disagree at all. Any religious claim has to be held to its own standard, making a claim such as God exists, is a huge claim & it has to be equally substantiated, idem for any other religious claim.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/15/2015 6:47:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 6:02:30 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:47:38 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:20:44 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:08:33 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:30:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

First of all we have to realize that a good portion is probably just made up, such as the "greek gods" and the myth stories ect.. There are MANY spirits that's why there are many spiritual experiences, most probably made up while some being legit.

Why do you think the Greek gods are made up?

Do you really need me to explain this lol?

I would like you to. I get why it may seem as an absurd question, but they were very real to the Greeks, just as your god is very real to you. So can you tell me why you don't think these Greek gods existed?

Are all spirits under one unified religious perspective? If yes, then why don't they communicate this one message?
"Some being legit." Do you think there are multiple gods? A variation of option 3.

No they are not unified. Different spirits reveal different things, but there is only one Spirit of God, but there are principalities set up on this earth, not all of God.

I'm a bit confused there. "No they are not unified" and "there is only one spirit of god." Seems they must be unified, if there is only one "spirit of god." Have these "spirits" led others to wrong gods?

There is only "one Spirit of God", meaning there is only one God that is His Spirit, however there are many spirits on the earth. Yes these spirits represent false gods, in other words they are worshipped because they have retained rightful place. They have retained that place because of vessels, vessels then worship that spirit.

Let's make this a little more straight forward. Some of the religious language is losing me. I'm opening my book that has 2000 historical gods, including YWHW. Legba, God of fate, region West Africa. Why was/is this god worshiped in your opinion? How did the humans who worship this god come to believe this god existed? This goes back to option 1, 2, or 3.


Why do you reject the existence of all the other gods humans have worshiped, including the Greek gods?

There is nothing that connects them to reality, if you want to dispute that then go ahead, I have neither the time nor the desire, you're just going to have to accept that I'm a Christian for a reason. I don't "reject" them, I have no reason to believe in them. Unless you would like to suggest otherwise, and if you do I'm going to hold you to it.

OK, I'll give you some reasons why you might have a reason to believe in them. One, you believe a god exists, so you believe gods can exist. These are gods, you logically believe their existence is possible. People at one time worshiped these gods. Today, you worship your own god. They have stories about their gods. You have stories about your god. People exist in reality, the Greeks gods are connect to reality by the humans that believed in them and by the claims these humans made regarding their actions in our reality. A quote describing Zues, "He is a universal deity and through him comes all mortal sovereignty." He is attached to reality.
So why don't you accept these gods as well? Why have you ruled out their existence?
NoMagic
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3/15/2015 6:53:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 6:34:49 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:32:11 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:03:05 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:59:21 PM, NoMagic wrote:
I'm thinking "THIS" means option two. I'll work from that unless you correct me.

- Yes, it is.

If we are so bad at understanding this message, and we get it wrong most of the time, why should we trust any religious claim? If 99% of all religious claims are wrong due to incorrect understanding by humans, then none warrant trust. We simply cannot rely on them, humans. Based on two, we should reject all human claims. Do you agree?

- Whether we reject or accept a religion, we must substantiate either actions with Reason. We have to use our intellect to determine which religion is true & which isn't. Not because most are probably false, all must be false.

I agree reason should be applied. So let's apply it. If the vast majority of religious claims have been wrong, based on reason, then religious claims should be viewed with incredible skepticism. Do you think this sentence reflects a thought based on reason?
Also, prior probability is a logically valid practice. So lets apply this method of reasoning. If we walk through a parking lot of cars, let's say 5000 cars, (cars represent some historic god or religion) and as you and I pass each car, we say, this car is the product of humans, we agree on each car, then you and I come to the final car (Islam and the god of the Jews) if we stated that the 4999 other cars are the product of humans, it stands to reason, with a high degree of probability, that the last car is also a product of man. Is this view based on reason in your opinion?

- I don't disagree at all. Any religious claim has to be held to its own standard, making a claim such as God exists, is a huge claim & it has to be equally substantiated, idem for any other religious claim.

I'm going to disagree with one of your sentences. I think religious claims should be held by external standards of reason and evidence. If we grade religious claims on their own standards, then all religious claims would be true. I think reason, evidence, and logic should be applied equally to all things. Religions should be held to standards outside of religion, IMO.
YassineB
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3/15/2015 6:56:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 6:53:19 PM, NoMagic wrote:
- I don't disagree at all. Any religious claim has to be held to its own standard, making a claim such as God exists, is a huge claim & it has to be equally substantiated, idem for any other religious claim.

I'm going to disagree with one of your sentences. I think religious claims should be held by external standards of reason and evidence. If we grade religious claims on their own standards, then all religious claims would be true. I think reason, evidence, and logic should be applied equally to all things. Religions should be held to standards outside of religion, IMO.

- No, No. We don't disagree at all. I said: "Any religious claim has to be held to its own standard", meaning: the more assumptions a religious claim makes, the more evidence it requires.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
NoMagic
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3/15/2015 7:24:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 6:56:48 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:53:19 PM, NoMagic wrote:
- I don't disagree at all. Any religious claim has to be held to its own standard, making a claim such as God exists, is a huge claim & it has to be equally substantiated, idem for any other religious claim.

I'm going to disagree with one of your sentences. I think religious claims should be held by external standards of reason and evidence. If we grade religious claims on their own standards, then all religious claims would be true. I think reason, evidence, and logic should be applied equally to all things. Religions should be held to standards outside of religion, IMO.

- No, No. We don't disagree at all. I said: "Any religious claim has to be held to its own standard", meaning: the more assumptions a religious claim makes, the more evidence it requires.

We must have a different interpretation of "its own standard." For me, this means, maybe internally consistent (which I could make up a religion tomorrow that is internally consistent), or, well I can't think of an or. It's a bit like the morality question, if morality is based on my standard, them I'm moral, if morality is based on god's standard, then god is moral, if morality is based on Hitler's standard, then Hitler is moral. If "own standard" to you means, can it meets a certain standard of evidence, reason, and logic, well then I guess we agree. "Own standard" doesn't mean that to me.
YassineB
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3/15/2015 7:33:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 7:24:43 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:56:48 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:53:19 PM, NoMagic wrote:
- I don't disagree at all. Any religious claim has to be held to its own standard, making a claim such as God exists, is a huge claim & it has to be equally substantiated, idem for any other religious claim.

I'm going to disagree with one of your sentences. I think religious claims should be held by external standards of reason and evidence. If we grade religious claims on their own standards, then all religious claims would be true. I think reason, evidence, and logic should be applied equally to all things. Religions should be held to standards outside of religion, IMO.

- No, No. We don't disagree at all. I said: "Any religious claim has to be held to its own standard", meaning: the more assumptions a religious claim makes, the more evidence it requires.

We must have a different interpretation of "its own standard." For me, this means, maybe internally consistent (which I could make up a religion tomorrow that is internally consistent), or, well I can't think of an or. It's a bit like the morality question, if morality is based on my standard, them I'm moral, if morality is based on god's standard, then god is moral, if morality is based on Hitler's standard, then Hitler is moral. If "own standard" to you means, can it meets a certain standard of evidence, reason, and logic, well then I guess we agree. "Own standard" doesn't mean that to me.

- English is sometimes a tricky thing :)
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EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,328
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3/15/2015 7:42:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 6:47:11 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:02:30 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:47:38 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:20:44 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:08:33 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:30:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

First of all we have to realize that a good portion is probably just made up, such as the "greek gods" and the myth stories ect.. There are MANY spirits that's why there are many spiritual experiences, most probably made up while some being legit.

Why do you think the Greek gods are made up?

Do you really need me to explain this lol?

I would like you to. I get why it may seem as an absurd question, but they were very real to the Greeks, just as your god is very real to you. So can you tell me why you don't think these Greek gods existed?

Are all spirits under one unified religious perspective? If yes, then why don't they communicate this one message?
"Some being legit." Do you think there are multiple gods? A variation of option 3.

No they are not unified. Different spirits reveal different things, but there is only one Spirit of God, but there are principalities set up on this earth, not all of God.

I'm a bit confused there. "No they are not unified" and "there is only one spirit of god." Seems they must be unified, if there is only one "spirit of god." Have these "spirits" led others to wrong gods?

There is only "one Spirit of God", meaning there is only one God that is His Spirit, however there are many spirits on the earth. Yes these spirits represent false gods, in other words they are worshipped because they have retained rightful place. They have retained that place because of vessels, vessels then worship that spirit.

Let's make this a little more straight forward. Some of the religious language is losing me. I'm opening my book that has 2000 historical gods, including YWHW. Legba, God of fate, region West Africa. Why was/is this god worshiped in your opinion? How did the humans who worship this god come to believe this god existed? This goes back to option 1, 2, or 3



Why do you reject the existence of all the other gods humans have worshiped, including the Greek gods?

There is nothing that connects them to reality, if you want to dispute that then go ahead, I have neither the time nor the desire, you're just going to have to accept that I'm a Christian for a reason. I don't "reject" them, I have no reason to believe in them. Unless you would like to suggest otherwise, and if you do I'm going to hold you to it.

OK, I'll give you some reasons why you might have a reason to believe in them. One, you believe a god exists, so you believe gods can exist. These are gods, you logically believe their existence is possible. People at one time worshiped these gods. Today, you worship your own god. They have stories about their gods. You have stories about your god. People exist in reality, the Greeks gods are connect to reality by the humans that believed in them and by the claims these humans made regarding their actions in our reality. A quote describing Zues, "He is a universal deity and through him comes all mortal sovereignty." He is attached to reality.
So why don't you accept these gods as well? Why have you ruled out their existence?

No, he is not attached to reality and I don't logically believe any god is possible, that is your take on it. Okay you want to use "Zues" as an example, now connect for me His existence with the world? How is it relevant in our minds and within spiritual knowledge? What has he to do with humans and what truths express his creation in a logical way?

Here is some refined truth about zeus....
http://en.wikipedia.org...
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/15/2015 8:04:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 7:42:52 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:47:11 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:02:30 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:47:38 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:20:44 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:08:33 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:30:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

First of all we have to realize that a good portion is probably just made up, such as the "greek gods" and the myth stories ect.. There are MANY spirits that's why there are many spiritual experiences, most probably made up while some being legit.

Why do you think the Greek gods are made up?

Do you really need me to explain this lol?

I would like you to. I get why it may seem as an absurd question, but they were very real to the Greeks, just as your god is very real to you. So can you tell me why you don't think these Greek gods existed?

Are all spirits under one unified religious perspective? If yes, then why don't they communicate this one message?
"Some being legit." Do you think there are multiple gods? A variation of option 3.

No they are not unified. Different spirits reveal different things, but there is only one Spirit of God, but there are principalities set up on this earth, not all of God.

I'm a bit confused there. "No they are not unified" and "there is only one spirit of god." Seems they must be unified, if there is only one "spirit of god." Have these "spirits" led others to wrong gods?

There is only "one Spirit of God", meaning there is only one God that is His Spirit, however there are many spirits on the earth. Yes these spirits represent false gods, in other words they are worshipped because they have retained rightful place. They have retained that place because of vessels, vessels then worship that spirit.

Let's make this a little more straight forward. Some of the religious language is losing me. I'm opening my book that has 2000 historical gods, including YWHW. Legba, God of fate, region West Africa. Why was/is this god worshiped in your opinion? How did the humans who worship this god come to believe this god existed? This goes back to option 1, 2, or 3



Why do you reject the existence of all the other gods humans have worshiped, including the Greek gods?

There is nothing that connects them to reality, if you want to dispute that then go ahead, I have neither the time nor the desire, you're just going to have to accept that I'm a Christian for a reason. I don't "reject" them, I have no reason to believe in them. Unless you would like to suggest otherwise, and if you do I'm going to hold you to it.

OK, I'll give you some reasons why you might have a reason to believe in them. One, you believe a god exists, so you believe gods can exist. These are gods, you logically believe their existence is possible. People at one time worshiped these gods. Today, you worship your own god. They have stories about their gods. You have stories about your god. People exist in reality, the Greeks gods are connect to reality by the humans that believed in them and by the claims these humans made regarding their actions in our reality. A quote describing Zues, "He is a universal deity and through him comes all mortal sovereignty." He is attached to reality.
So why don't you accept these gods as well? Why have you ruled out their existence?

No, he is not attached to reality and I don't logically believe any god is possible, that is your take on it. Okay you want to use "Zues" as an example, now connect for me His existence with the world? How is it relevant in our minds and within spiritual knowledge? What has he to do with humans and what truths express his creation in a logical way?

I get that the presupposition that you've been raised in, "one god exists, and that is the Christian god," can make it difficult to imagine that other gods exist, but this is purely due to the presupposition. There is no legitimate reason to reject the other gods purely based on this presupposition. If you were in Athens 2700 years ago, you would be convinced of the existence of Zeus. You would have no concept of Christianity in anyway. Your world would be one of many gods. Zeus being one of them.
I've connected Zeus to reality already, but I'll do that again. He was believed in by people who reside in reality. Just like you now. He was credited with certain actions in reality, just like your god is credited with certain actions in reality. In Greece, 2700 years ago, Zeus was just as real as YWHW was in Israel. So why don't you accept the existence of Zeus? (being it's Zeus isn't really important, any god is fine, we are talking about the rejection of other gods)
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,328
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3/15/2015 8:17:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 8:04:56 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 7:42:52 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:47:11 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:02:30 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:47:38 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:20:44 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:08:33 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:30:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

First of all we have to realize that a good portion is probably just made up, such as the "greek gods" and the myth stories ect.. There are MANY spirits that's why there are many spiritual experiences, most probably made up while some being legit.

Why do you think the Greek gods are made up?

Do you really need me to explain this lol?

I would like you to. I get why it may seem as an absurd question, but they were very real to the Greeks, just as your god is very real to you. So can you tell me why you don't think these Greek gods existed?

Are all spirits under one unified religious perspective? If yes, then why don't they communicate this one message?
"Some being legit." Do you think there are multiple gods? A variation of option 3.

No they are not unified. Different spirits reveal different things, but there is only one Spirit of God, but there are principalities set up on this earth, not all of God.

I'm a bit confused there. "No they are not unified" and "there is only one spirit of god." Seems they must be unified, if there is only one "spirit of god." Have these "spirits" led others to wrong gods?

There is only "one Spirit of God", meaning there is only one God that is His Spirit, however there are many spirits on the earth. Yes these spirits represent false gods, in other words they are worshipped because they have retained rightful place. They have retained that place because of vessels, vessels then worship that spirit.

Let's make this a little more straight forward. Some of the religious language is losing me. I'm opening my book that has 2000 historical gods, including YWHW. Legba, God of fate, region West Africa. Why was/is this god worshiped in your opinion? How did the humans who worship this god come to believe this god existed? This goes back to option 1, 2, or 3



Why do you reject the existence of all the other gods humans have worshiped, including the Greek gods?

There is nothing that connects them to reality, if you want to dispute that then go ahead, I have neither the time nor the desire, you're just going to have to accept that I'm a Christian for a reason. I don't "reject" them, I have no reason to believe in them. Unless you would like to suggest otherwise, and if you do I'm going to hold you to it.

OK, I'll give you some reasons why you might have a reason to believe in them. One, you believe a god exists, so you believe gods can exist. These are gods, you logically believe their existence is possible. People at one time worshiped these gods. Today, you worship your own god. They have stories about their gods. You have stories about your god. People exist in reality, the Greeks gods are connect to reality by the humans that believed in them and by the claims these humans made regarding their actions in our reality. A quote describing Zues, "He is a universal deity and through him comes all mortal sovereignty." He is attached to reality.
So why don't you accept these gods as well? Why have you ruled out their existence?

No, he is not attached to reality and I don't logically believe any god is possible, that is your take on it. Okay you want to use "Zues" as an example, now connect for me His existence with the world? How is it relevant in our minds and within spiritual knowledge? What has he to do with humans and what truths express his creation in a logical way?

I get that the presupposition that you've been raised in, "one god exists, and that is the Christian god," can make it difficult to imagine that other gods exist, but this is purely due to the presupposition. There is no legitimate reason to reject the other gods purely based on this presupposition. If you were in Athens 2700 years ago, you would be convinced of the existence of Zeus. You would have no concept of Christianity in anyway. Your world would be one of many gods. Zeus being one of them.
I've connected Zeus to reality already, but I'll do that again. He was believed in by people who reside in reality. Just like you now. He was credited with certain actions in reality, just like your god is credited with certain actions in reality. In Greece, 2700 years ago, Zeus was just as real as YWHW was in Israel. So why don't you accept the existence of Zeus? (being it's Zeus isn't really important, any god is fine, we are talking about the rejection of other gods)

there is no "presupposition", I'd like to see you support that, I'll give you another chance to connect Zues with reality, here is a sample from the Biblical scripture you can compare with, until then I will accept you are just asserting..

John 15
https://www.biblegateway.com...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/15/2015 8:31:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The fact that there are many competing faiths doesn't itself mean all are wrong.

However the presence of one right faith should be evidenced by it having deep, significant, independently-verifiable insights about the natural world that the others didn't, and that these insights would prove critical to helping humanity be a better species.

There's not only no evidence of that, there's abundant evidence that no religion has enough natural insights to guide humanity clearly or effectively in the first place, and that many of the insights they claim to have are wrong.

So, option 1.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,137
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3/15/2015 8:39:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

I agree with your assessment of this choice.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

This is possible, but #1 would be more probable in my opinion.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

This is an interesting option I had not considered. This brings up the question: Why did we stop worshiping and even forget about some gods? Would that not point to:
a. indifferent gods - if this is the case, then how did we come to know them by name?
b. non existent gods - gods as described in your option #1

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

Option #1.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/15/2015 9:34:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 8:17:05 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 8:04:56 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 7:42:52 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:47:11 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:02:30 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:47:38 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:20:44 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:08:33 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:30:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

First of all we have to realize that a good portion is probably just made up, such as the "greek gods" and the myth stories ect.. There are MANY spirits that's why there are many spiritual experiences, most probably made up while some being legit.

Why do you think the Greek gods are made up?

Do you really need me to explain this lol?

I would like you to. I get why it may seem as an absurd question, but they were very real to the Greeks, just as your god is very real to you. So can you tell me why you don't think these Greek gods existed?

There is only "one Spirit of God", meaning there is only one God that is His Spirit, however there are many spirits on the earth. Yes these spirits represent false gods, in other words they are worshipped because they have retained rightful place. They have retained that place because of vessels, vessels then worship that spirit.

Let's make this a little more straight forward. Some of the religious language is losing me. I'm opening my book that has 2000 historical gods, including YWHW. Legba, God of fate, region West Africa. Why was/is this god worshiped in your opinion? How did the humans who worship this god come to believe this god existed? This goes back to option 1, 2, or 3



Why do you reject the existence of all the other gods humans have worshiped, including the Greek gods?

There is nothing that connects them to reality, if you want to dispute that then go ahead, I have neither the time nor the desire, you're just going to have to accept that I'm a Christian for a reason. I don't "reject" them, I have no reason to believe in them. Unless you would like to suggest otherwise, and if you do I'm going to hold you to it.


No, he is not attached to reality and I don't logically believe any god is possible, that is your take on it. Okay you want to use "Zues" as an example, now connect for me His existence with the world? How is it relevant in our minds and within spiritual knowledge? What has he to do with humans and what truths express his creation in a logical way?

I get that the presupposition that you've been raised in, "one god exists, and that is the Christian god," can make it difficult to imagine that other gods exist, but this is purely due to the presupposition. There is no legitimate reason to reject the other gods purely based on this presupposition. If you were in Athens 2700 years ago, you would be convinced of the existence of Zeus. You would have no concept of Christianity in anyway. Your world would be one of many gods. Zeus being one of them.
I've connected Zeus to reality already, but I'll do that again. He was believed in by people who reside in reality. Just like you now. He was credited with certain actions in reality, just like your god is credited with certain actions in reality. In Greece, 2700 years ago, Zeus was just as real as YWHW was in Israel. So why don't you accept the existence of Zeus? (being it's Zeus isn't really important, any god is fine, we are talking about the rejection of other gods)

there is no "presupposition", I'd like to see you support that, I'll give you another chance to connect Zues with reality, here is a sample from the Biblical scripture you can compare with, until then I will accept you are just asserting..

I've connected Zeus with reality, you've made no attempt to refute my connection. Refute it, and I'll consider that as a statement that I haven't connected Zeus with reality. Once again, a refresher, Zeus connection with reality, people who exist in reality believed in Zeus, just like your god. Two, Zeus is claimed to have done things in reality by those who believed in him. Three, there are historical accounts that attest to Zeus's existence, just like your god.
Also, even if Zeus wasn't connected to reality, lets say he exist outside space and time, like YWHW does, that wouldn't mean Zeus doesn't exist. I don't exist in Pakistan. I have no connection to Pakistan, yet I still exist.
The only difference between YWHW and Zeus, is that at present time, many believe YWHW exists, and at present time, few believe Zeus exists. Beyond that, there is no real difference. Which is no reason to dismiss Zeus out of hand.
Maybe the issue is that Zeus is in the past. Since the god isn't important to the main point, let's include Visnu, one of the Hindu gods. Currently believed and worship by hundreds of millions. Visnu, Hindu, one of the creator gods (connected to reality), worshiped from 1700 bce (before your god) to present day. Visnu has appeared as ten major incarnations (connected to reality). Visnu is the keeper of civilized morality and order. Without Visnu we wouldn't have either (connected to reality). So the question you keep avoiding, why do you reject the existence of Zeus or Visnu?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,328
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3/16/2015 12:08:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 9:34:39 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 8:17:05 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 8:04:56 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 7:42:52 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:47:11 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:02:30 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:47:38 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:20:44 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:08:33 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:30:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

First of all we have to realize that a good portion is probably just made up, such as the "greek gods" and the myth stories ect.. There are MANY spirits that's why there are many spiritual experiences, most probably made up while some being legit.

Why do you think the Greek gods are made up?

Do you really need me to explain this lol?

I would like you to. I get why it may seem as an absurd question, but they were very real to the Greeks, just as your god is very real to you. So can you tell me why you don't think these Greek gods existed?

There is only "one Spirit of God", meaning there is only one God that is His Spirit, however there are many spirits on the earth. Yes these spirits represent false gods, in other words they are worshipped because they have retained rightful place. They have retained that place because of vessels, vessels then worship that spirit.

Let's make this a little more straight forward. Some of the religious language is losing me. I'm opening my book that has 2000 historical gods, including YWHW. Legba, God of fate, region West Africa. Why was/is this god worshiped in your opinion? How did the humans who worship this god come to believe this god existed? This goes back to option 1, 2, or 3



Why do you reject the existence of all the other gods humans have worshiped, including the Greek gods?

There is nothing that connects them to reality, if you want to dispute that then go ahead, I have neither the time nor the desire, you're just going to have to accept that I'm a Christian for a reason. I don't "reject" them, I have no reason to believe in them. Unless you would like to suggest otherwise, and if you do I'm going to hold you to it.


No, he is not attached to reality and I don't logically believe any god is possible, that is your take on it. Okay you want to use "Zues" as an example, now connect for me His existence with the world? How is it relevant in our minds and within spiritual knowledge? What has he to do with humans and what truths express his creation in a logical way?

I get that the presupposition that you've been raised in, "one god exists, and that is the Christian god," can make it difficult to imagine that other gods exist, but this is purely due to the presupposition. There is no legitimate reason to reject the other gods purely based on this presupposition. If you were in Athens 2700 years ago, you would be convinced of the existence of Zeus. You would have no concept of Christianity in anyway. Your world would be one of many gods. Zeus being one of them.
I've connected Zeus to reality already, but I'll do that again. He was believed in by people who reside in reality. Just like you now. He was credited with certain actions in reality, just like your god is credited with certain actions in reality. In Greece, 2700 years ago, Zeus was just as real as YWHW was in Israel. So why don't you accept the existence of Zeus? (being it's Zeus isn't really important, any god is fine, we are talking about the rejection of other gods)

there is no "presupposition", I'd like to see you support that, I'll give you another chance to connect Zues with reality, here is a sample from the Biblical scripture you can compare with, until then I will accept you are just asserting..

I've connected Zeus with reality, you've made no attempt to refute my connection. Refute it, and I'll consider that as a statement that I haven't connected Zeus with reality. Once again, a refresher, Zeus connection with reality, people who exist in reality believed in Zeus, just like your god. Two, Zeus is claimed to have done things in reality by those who believed in him. Three, there are historical accounts that attest to Zeus's existence, just like your god.
Also, even if Zeus wasn't connected to reality, lets say he exist outside space and time, like YWHW does, that wouldn't mean Zeus doesn't exist. I don't exist in Pakistan. I have no connection to Pakistan, yet I still exist.
The only difference between YWHW and Zeus, is that at present time, many believe YWHW exists, and at present time, few believe Zeus exists. Beyond that, there is no real difference. Which is no reason to dismiss Zeus out of hand.
Maybe the issue is that Zeus is in the past. Since the god isn't important to the main point, let's include Visnu, one of the Hindu gods. Currently believed and worship by hundreds of millions. Visnu, Hindu, one of the creator gods (connected to reality), worshiped from 1700 bce (before your god) to present day. Visnu has appeared as ten major incarnations (connected to reality). Visnu is the keeper of civilized morality and order. Without Visnu we wouldn't have either (connected to reality). So the question you keep avoiding, why do you reject the existence of Zeus or Visnu?

You've connected Zeus with reality by telling me people have believed in it lol? Wow no wonder you have a crappy view of Christianity, too bad for you there is nothing you can see unique about it, maybe I find that not likely if you have indeed considered everything but hey, believe what you want but you haven't done what I have asked or at least you may think you have.
I want to see some literature, some teachings on Zeus why I should believe anything you've said, Zeus is a fine example so we can stick with that by your own recommendation. I want to see something in the teachings of Zeus that connect Him with us in a rational logical meaningful way, not some vague crap which is why I gave one example in scripture.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/16/2015 7:36:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/16/2015 12:08:04 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 9:34:39 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 8:17:05 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 8:04:56 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 7:42:52 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:47:11 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:02:30 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:47:38 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:20:44 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:08:33 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:30:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrot

I get that the presupposition that you've been raised in, "one god exists, and that is the Christian god," can make it difficult to imagine that other gods exist, but this is purely due to the presupposition. There is no legitimate reason to reject the other gods purely based on this presupposition. If you were in Athens 2700 years ago, you would be convinced of the existence of Zeus. You would have no concept of Christianity in anyway. Your world would be one of many gods. Zeus being one of them.
I've connected Zeus to reality already, but I'll do that again. He was believed in by people who reside in reality. Just like you now. He was credited with certain actions in reality, just like your god is credited with certain actions in reality. In Greece, 2700 years ago, Zeus was just as real as YWHW was in Israel. So why don't you accept the existence of Zeus? (being it's Zeus isn't really important, any god is fine, we are talking about the rejection of other gods)

there is no "presupposition", I'd like to see you support that, I'll give you another chance to connect Zues with reality, here is a sample from the Biblical scripture you can compare with, until then I will accept you are just asserting..

I've connected Zeus with reality, you've made no attempt to refute my connection. Refute it, and I'll consider that as a statement that I haven't connected Zeus with reality. Once again, a refresher, Zeus connection with reality, people who exist in reality believed in Zeus, just like your god. Two, Zeus is claimed to have done things in reality by those who believed in him. Three, there are historical accounts that attest to Zeus's existence, just like your god.
Also, even if Zeus wasn't connected to reality, lets say he exist outside space and time, like YWHW does, that wouldn't mean Zeus doesn't exist. I don't exist in Pakistan. I have no connection to Pakistan, yet I still exist.
The only difference between YWHW and Zeus, is that at present time, many believe YWHW exists, and at present time, few believe Zeus exists. Beyond that, there is no real difference. Which is no reason to dismiss Zeus out of hand.
Maybe the issue is that Zeus is in the past. Since the god isn't important to the main point, let's include Visnu, one of the Hindu gods. Currently believed and worship by hundreds of millions. Visnu, Hindu, one of the creator gods (connected to reality), worshiped from 1700 bce (before your god) to present day. Visnu has appeared as ten major incarnations (connected to reality). Visnu is the keeper of civilized morality and order. Without Visnu we wouldn't have either (connected to reality). So the question you keep avoiding, why do you reject the existence of Zeus or Visnu?

You've connected Zeus with reality by telling me people have believed in it lol? Wow no wonder you have a crappy view of Christianity, too bad for you there is nothing you can see unique about it, maybe I find that not likely if you have indeed considered everything but hey, believe what you want but you haven't done what I have asked or at least you may think you have.
I want to see some literature, some teachings on Zeus why I should believe anything you've said, Zeus is a fine example so we can stick with that by your own recommendation. I want to see something in the teachings of Zeus that connect Him with us in a rational logical meanin
Boy you are being stubborn on this one. I like to get to the difficult points. The problem I always have is getting to guys to address them. But, I guess that is why I like getting to the difficult points.
You have NOTHING written by your god, NOTHING.
You only have humans claiming your god has provided messages to them, in which they will pass along to you, fantastic way to artificially gain authority over others
At one time, Zeus and currently Visnu had humans claiming they did or do exist. Just like your god today. If you would like, I can write something and just say Zeus told me, that seems to be acceptable already from the Christian perspective, so no real objection should be there. Visnu has hundreds of millions of present day worshipers, that is connected to reality. The Zeus example isn't important, the larger point is, you reject other gods. Why? What is your justification? Because some human didn't write something down and say it is from that god? Do you accept the Quran, this fits into the wrote something down category? Do you reject the Book of Mormon? This fits into the teaching category? The Vedas of Hinduism testify to the truth of their gods, one being Visnu, why do you reject this god? It meets all your criteria?
My cat exists, yet has written nothing down. Existence doesn't hinge on writing something down. You "LOL" when I asked why you reject the Greek gods. Yet you still haven't answered why you do.
Your god, believed to exist
Greek gods, believed to exist
Your god, people make claims regarding him
Greek gods, people made claims regarding them
Your god, is ritually worshiped
Greek gods, were ritually worshiped
Your god, accounted for in history
Greek gods, accounted for in history
Your god, used to explain things
Greek gods, used to explain things
Your god, writings claiming specific actions he has done
Greek gods, writings claiming specific actions they did
Let's not pretend there is some significant differences. I understand why it is difficult to think along these lines. Today, many believe in the Christian god, so it seems rational to believe in the Christian god. Today, no one believes in the Greek gods, so it seems irrational to believe in the Greek gods. However, 2700 years ago, no one believed in the Christian god, and most Greeks believed in there gods. Who believes what when, is no justification to dismiss these other historically accounted for gods. So tell me why you reject them? Just answer the question you seem to think is so silly. If you had a good answer, you would've given it by now. But, let's try just the same.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/16/2015 9:20:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

God is NOT RELIGIOUS at all. He's the Creator of everything and the one who formed visible objects for His people to believe they're real.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/17/2015 10:55:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/16/2015 9:20:14 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

God is NOT RELIGIOUS at all. He's the Creator of everything and the one who formed visible objects for His people to believe they're real.

Do you have any tangible evidence to support this assertion?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/17/2015 11:32:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 10:55:44 AM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/16/2015 9:20:14 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

God is NOT RELIGIOUS at all. He's the Creator of everything and the one who formed visible objects for His people to believe they're real.

Do you have any tangible evidence to support this assertion?

Do you have any tangible evidence that you exist? Most physicists are learning there isn't any tangible evidence that the universe exists.

Very few people have been taught by our Creator that we're all experiencing His dreams.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
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3/17/2015 12:23:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 11:32:03 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/17/2015 10:55:44 AM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/16/2015 9:20:14 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrote:
Humanity has a long and very diverse set of religions and gods. We have thousands of historical gods, some preserved, some completely forgotten. We also have thousands of religions of varying sizes, some large, some small. We have large variations within single religions. Christianity as an example has over 20,000 variations. We clearly have significant variation of religious beliefs. So what explains this variation best? I see three options. But there may be more.

Option 1. A naturalistic view explains this best. Local groups or tribes created their own specific gods and religions to answer questions that related to them. This is what has generated such large variation.

Option 2. There is one god, which has communicated with all these different tribes and groups. They have just gotten the message largely wrong and have interpreted this message into a diverse set of gods and religions.

Option 3. There are many gods. These many gods are what explains the many gods humans worshiped in the past and the ones they worship now. Zues, Mula, Frigg, Fu Shen do exist and that is why they were or are worshiped, today or in the past.

Which option do you think offers the most likely explanation? Maybe you have another option that makes more sense. Anyway, what is the most likely correct explanation for religious variation?

God is NOT RELIGIOUS at all. He's the Creator of everything and the one who formed visible objects for His people to believe they're real.

Do you have any tangible evidence to support this assertion?

Do you have any tangible evidence that you exist? Most physicists are learning there isn't any tangible evidence that the universe exists.

Very few people have been taught by our Creator that we're all experiencing His dreams.

If my questions don't get answer, then why would I answer the questions of those who won't answer mine?

Is that a no then?
SaintBart
Posts: 15
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3/17/2015 1:24:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/16/2015 7:36:57 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/16/2015 12:08:04 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 9:34:39 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 8:17:05 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 8:04:56 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 7:42:52 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:47:11 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:02:30 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:47:38 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:20:44 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:08:33 PM, NoMagic wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:30:51 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:08:37 PM, NoMagic wrot

I get that the presupposition that you've been raised in, "one god exists, and that is the Christian god," can make it difficult to imagine that other gods exist, but this is purely due to the presupposition. There is no legitimate reason to reject the other gods purely based on this presupposition. If you were in Athens 2700 years ago, you would be convinced of the existence of Zeus. You would have no concept of Christianity in anyway. Your world would be one of many gods. Zeus being one of them.
I've connected Zeus to reality already, but I'll do that again. He was believed in by people who reside in reality. Just like you now. He was credited with certain actions in reality, just like your god is credited with certain actions in reality. In Greece, 2700 years ago, Zeus was just as real as YWHW was in Israel. So why don't you accept the existence of Zeus? (being it's Zeus isn't really important, any god is fine, we are talking about the rejection of other gods)


You have NOTHING written by your god, NOTHING.
You only have humans claiming your god has provided messages to them, in which they will pass along to you, fantastic way to artificially gain authority over others
At one time, Zeus and currently Visnu had humans claiming they did or do exist. Just like your god today. If you would like, I can write something and just say Zeus told me, that seems to be acceptable already from the Christian perspective, so no real objection should be there. Visnu has hundreds of millions of present day worshipers, that is connected to reality. The Zeus example isn't important, the larger point is, you reject other gods. Why? What is your justification? Because some human didn't write something down and say it is from that god? Do you accept the Quran, this fits into the wrote something down category? Do you reject the Book of Mormon? This fits into the teaching category? The Vedas of Hinduism testify to the truth of their gods, one being Visnu, why do you reject this god? It meets all your criteria?
My cat exists, yet has written nothing down. Existence doesn't hinge on writing something down. You "LOL" when I asked why you reject the Greek gods. Yet you still haven't answered why you do.
Your god, believed to exist
Greek gods, believed to exist
Your god, people make claims regarding him
Greek gods, people made claims regarding them
Your god, is ritually worshiped
Greek gods, were ritually worshiped
Your god, accounted for in history
Greek gods, accounted for in history
Your god, used to explain things
Greek gods, used to explain things
Your god, writings claiming specific actions he has done
Greek gods, writings claiming specific actions they did
Let's not pretend there is some significant differences. I understand why it is difficult to think along these lines. Today, many believe in the Christian god, so it seems rational to believe in the Christian god. Today, no one believes in the Greek gods, so it seems irrational to believe in the Greek gods. However, 2700 years ago, no one believed in the Christian god, and most Greeks believed in there gods. Who believes what when, is no justification to dismiss these other historically accounted for gods. So tell me why you reject them? Just answer the question you seem to think is so silly. If you had a good answer, you would've given it by now. But, let's try just the same.


I agree. On the surface level the dismal of other gods seems arbitrary and causally linked to history and social climate. However, justification for dismissing other gods are based on faith founded in personal and/or objective reason. Your references of the greek gods seems an apt comparison so I will continue with this example. Even during the height of greek polytheism Aristotle proposed his five proofs for the existence of a god and rejected polytheism. Given this new objective reason, monotheism seems the most reasonable to believe if God exists. You also talked about the various religious texts. Which can be daunting trying to sort them all out. They not only explain the relationship of god to nature/man but also reveal to us certain characteristics of God. When you combine the text with the logical philosophical description of God you have to make a choice (faith) of which to be the correct interpretation of who God is. I agree that it is a logical fallacy that all can be correct. Thus rejecting all other religions have to be based on the claims made within their doctrine, texts and observable evidences in nature.

It would also be illogical to reject the possibility of the non existence of God. However the logical proofs for the existence of God outweigh the proofs for the non-existence of God. It would be also incorrect to assume that since out of the thousand different religious views that none can be correct. This would be akin to equivocating and IMO lazy.