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Did Jesus Christ commit suicide?

wrichcirw
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3/17/2015 8:19:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
This forum is meant to be the focal point for discussion on an upcoming debate with the following resolution:

Christ committed suicide
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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3/17/2015 8:24:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The debate is here:

http://www.debate.org...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Harikrish
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3/17/2015 8:49:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Yes Jesus committed suicide.
Jesus knew if he claimed to be the messiah he would be killed for blasphemy. He warned his disciples he was going to die and according to him he had to die to fulfill the prophesies of Isaiah. Jesus offered himself up to the High priests and claimed his was the messiah and prepared for certain death. It was a suicidal move by Jesus.
wrichcirw
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3/17/2015 9:31:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 8:49:36 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Yes Jesus committed suicide.
Jesus knew if he claimed to be the messiah he would be killed for blasphemy. He warned his disciples he was going to die and according to him he had to die to fulfill the prophesies of Isaiah. Jesus offered himself up to the High priests and claimed his was the messiah and prepared for certain death. It was a suicidal move by Jesus.

But could he have stopped the authorities? Surely someone who could turn water to wine and raise the dead could have prevented the authorities from killing him.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Harikrish
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3/17/2015 9:34:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 9:31:07 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:49:36 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Yes Jesus committed suicide.
Jesus knew if he claimed to be the messiah he would be killed for blasphemy. He warned his disciples he was going to die and according to him he had to die to fulfill the prophesies of Isaiah. Jesus offered himself up to the High priests and claimed his was the messiah and prepared for certain death. It was a suicidal move by Jesus.

But could he have stopped the authorities? Surely someone who could turn water to wine and raise the dead could have prevented the authorities from killing him.
That is why it should be considered a suicide. He could have done many things to avoid certain death. He did it to fulfill a prophecy which is voluntary death or suicide.
wrichcirw
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3/17/2015 9:41:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 9:34:56 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/17/2015 9:31:07 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:49:36 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Yes Jesus committed suicide.
Jesus knew if he claimed to be the messiah he would be killed for blasphemy. He warned his disciples he was going to die and according to him he had to die to fulfill the prophesies of Isaiah. Jesus offered himself up to the High priests and claimed his was the messiah and prepared for certain death. It was a suicidal move by Jesus.

But could he have stopped the authorities? Surely someone who could turn water to wine and raise the dead could have prevented the authorities from killing him.
That is why it should be considered a suicide. He could have done many things to avoid certain death. He did it to fulfill a prophecy which is voluntary death or suicide.

Ah, right, sorry. I confused my own position for a moment there. =)
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Harikrish
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3/17/2015 9:49:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 9:41:53 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 9:34:56 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/17/2015 9:31:07 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:49:36 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Yes Jesus committed suicide.
Jesus knew if he claimed to be the messiah he would be killed for blasphemy. He warned his disciples he was going to die and according to him he had to die to fulfill the prophesies of Isaiah. Jesus offered himself up to the High priests and claimed his was the messiah and prepared for certain death. It was a suicidal move by Jesus.

But could he have stopped the authorities? Surely someone who could turn water to wine and raise the dead could have prevented the authorities from killing him.
That is why it should be considered a suicide. He could have done many things to avoid certain death. He did it to fulfill a prophecy which is voluntary death or suicide.

Ah, right, sorry. I confused my own position for a moment there. =)

Now Christians will argue his death was not suicidal but divine predetermination. That can be easily refuted. He was threatened with stoning on several occasions for blasphemy but managed to slip away unharmed. He was tempting fate. Eventually all those past claims were used as evidence against him.
Ragnar
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3/17/2015 6:32:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I predict the main arguments against this notion here will be complaints over moral judgement against the word suicide, and semantics of it's not really suicide if it's for the benefit of others... There is also the more slim possibility of someone claiming he was too dumb to know the outcome of his actions.

Well that and of course crazy people spewing off topic mouth-diarrhea all over this thread.
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EtrnlVw
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3/17/2015 7:05:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Philippians 2

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Yes Jesus voluntarily "committed suicide" if you look at it from a mere physical perspective. But Jesus of course knew more than the physical! meaning He didn't actually die, rather transformed, if you really follow the theology.
If this life is mere physical then the answer would be yes, because He willingly submitted Himself, in other words He knew what was going to happen and proceeded anyway.
However, if this life is what He said it was then I would say no, no because I understand spiritual principles and Jesus is spiritual perfection, perfection is sacrifice, sacrifice is love not flaw. Jesus did not end His only life, as suicide is the act of "ending ones life" because you don't want to continue LIVING! we all know Jesus knew He would continue living.

http://www.merriam-webster.com...
EtrnlVw
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3/17/2015 7:15:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 9:31:07 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:49:36 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Yes Jesus committed suicide.
Jesus knew if he claimed to be the messiah he would be killed for blasphemy. He warned his disciples he was going to die and according to him he had to die to fulfill the prophesies of Isaiah. Jesus offered himself up to the High priests and claimed his was the messiah and prepared for certain death. It was a suicidal move by Jesus.

But could he have stopped the authorities? Surely someone who could turn water to wine and raise the dead could have prevented the authorities from killing him.

Yes, which is what makes it voluntary. However, if you follow theology it wasn't His life He was ending, it was for wickedness. It had nothing to do with Him not wanting to live, that is the difference check the definition.
wrichcirw
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3/17/2015 7:27:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 7:15:57 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 9:31:07 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:49:36 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Yes Jesus committed suicide.
Jesus knew if he claimed to be the messiah he would be killed for blasphemy. He warned his disciples he was going to die and according to him he had to die to fulfill the prophesies of Isaiah. Jesus offered himself up to the High priests and claimed his was the messiah and prepared for certain death. It was a suicidal move by Jesus.

But could he have stopped the authorities? Surely someone who could turn water to wine and raise the dead could have prevented the authorities from killing him.

Yes, which is what makes it voluntary. However, if you follow theology it wasn't His life He was ending, it was for wickedness. It had nothing to do with Him not wanting to live, that is the difference check the definition.

He ended wickedness by sacrificing himself. That sacrifice has everything to do with Him wanting to die, which is what makes it suicide.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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3/17/2015 7:40:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 7:27:59 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:15:57 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 9:31:07 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:49:36 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Yes Jesus committed suicide.
Jesus knew if he claimed to be the messiah he would be killed for blasphemy. He warned his disciples he was going to die and according to him he had to die to fulfill the prophesies of Isaiah. Jesus offered himself up to the High priests and claimed his was the messiah and prepared for certain death. It was a suicidal move by Jesus.

But could he have stopped the authorities? Surely someone who could turn water to wine and raise the dead could have prevented the authorities from killing him.

Yes, which is what makes it voluntary. However, if you follow theology it wasn't His life He was ending, it was for wickedness. It had nothing to do with Him not wanting to live, that is the difference check the definition.

He ended wickedness by sacrificing himself. That sacrifice has everything to do with Him wanting to die, which is what makes it suicide.

But you're not following the argument, as it wasn't "life" He was trying to end. Did you read the definition? One who does "not want to continue living"! That was not the intention and you know it, do you have a response for that? Can you show me where Jesus just wanted to end life without a purpose? maybe you are unable to see the difference in this and somebody putting a gun to their head because they are angry with life and see no hope??? I hope you are happy with that analysis.

Show me in scripture where Jesus thought He was ending His "life" and not resurrecting it.... You are unable to follow the theology.
wrichcirw
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3/17/2015 7:45:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 7:40:33 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:27:59 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:15:57 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 9:31:07 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:49:36 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Yes Jesus committed suicide.
Jesus knew if he claimed to be the messiah he would be killed for blasphemy. He warned his disciples he was going to die and according to him he had to die to fulfill the prophesies of Isaiah. Jesus offered himself up to the High priests and claimed his was the messiah and prepared for certain death. It was a suicidal move by Jesus.

But could he have stopped the authorities? Surely someone who could turn water to wine and raise the dead could have prevented the authorities from killing him.

Yes, which is what makes it voluntary. However, if you follow theology it wasn't His life He was ending, it was for wickedness. It had nothing to do with Him not wanting to live, that is the difference check the definition.

He ended wickedness by sacrificing himself. That sacrifice has everything to do with Him wanting to die, which is what makes it suicide.

But you're not following the argument, as it wasn't "life" He was trying to end.

Define "life". Most definitions have life ending when one dies. Christ died.

Show me in scripture where Jesus thought He was ending His "life" and not resurrecting it.... You are unable to follow the theology.

If you're saying that Christ didn't "die", then he didn't "sacrifice" anything. I mean, IMHO Christianity is full of such contradictions...I'll leave it to you to explain this one if you wish.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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3/17/2015 7:56:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 7:45:28 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:40:33 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:27:59 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:15:57 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 9:31:07 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:49:36 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Yes Jesus committed suicide.
Jesus knew if he claimed to be the messiah he would be killed for blasphemy. He warned his disciples he was going to die and according to him he had to die to fulfill the prophesies of Isaiah. Jesus offered himself up to the High priests and claimed his was the messiah and prepared for certain death. It was a suicidal move by Jesus.

But could he have stopped the authorities? Surely someone who could turn water to wine and raise the dead could have prevented the authorities from killing him.

Yes, which is what makes it voluntary. However, if you follow theology it wasn't His life He was ending, it was for wickedness. It had nothing to do with Him not wanting to live, that is the difference check the definition.

He ended wickedness by sacrificing himself. That sacrifice has everything to do with Him wanting to die, which is what makes it suicide.

But you're not following the argument, as it wasn't "life" He was trying to end.

Define "life". Most definitions have life ending when one dies. Christ died.

Life on EARTH, and life in ETERNITY. Life does not end here and Jesus obviously knew it, that goes without saying. Jesus didn't "kill" Himself because He wanted to escape and rot away, that was not what He did which is why you need to examine the definition.

Show me in scripture where Jesus thought He was ending His "life" and not resurrecting it.... You are unable to follow the theology.

If you're saying that Christ didn't "die", then he didn't "sacrifice" anything. I mean, IMHO Christianity is full of such contradictions...I'll leave it to you to explain this one if you wish.

It's strange to me that you're not getting it, I find it odd you cannot follow what I'm saying as it is very simple. He died in the "flesh", but was raised in spirit, He knew He would not end His life but continue it. People don't commit suicide to go to Heaven lol! They do it to end their life because they think when they end it they have no more consciousness, but that is not what Jesus did as He wasn't going to the cross out of despair! Please examine the definition, as this is not what Christ did.
wrichcirw
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3/17/2015 7:59:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 7:56:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:45:28 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Define "life". Most definitions have life ending when one dies. Christ died.

Life on EARTH, and life in ETERNITY. Life does not end here and Jesus obviously knew it, that goes without saying. Jesus didn't "kill" Himself because He wanted to escape and rot away, that was not what He did which is why you need to examine the definition.

This is where the religious assert speculative statements as fact. You think life is more than what is commonly defined as life. I mean, you're free to do so, most religions do. Just don't be surprised when people don't see any reason to be convinced one way or another about it.

Show me in scripture where Jesus thought He was ending His "life" and not resurrecting it.... You are unable to follow the theology.

If you're saying that Christ didn't "die", then he didn't "sacrifice" anything. I mean, IMHO Christianity is full of such contradictions...I'll leave it to you to explain this one if you wish.

It's strange to me that you're not getting it, I find it odd you cannot follow what I'm saying as it is very simple. He died in the "flesh",

Right here you agree he committed suicide. Thank you very much, this discussion is over.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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3/17/2015 8:01:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 7:56:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:45:28 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:40:33 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:27:59 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:15:57 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 9:31:07 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:49:36 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Yes Jesus committed suicide.
Jesus knew if he claimed to be the messiah he would be killed for blasphemy. He warned his disciples he was going to die and according to him he had to die to fulfill the prophesies of Isaiah. Jesus offered himself up to the High priests and claimed his was the messiah and prepared for certain death. It was a suicidal move by Jesus.

But could he have stopped the authorities? Surely someone who could turn water to wine and raise the dead could have prevented the authorities from killing him.

Yes, which is what makes it voluntary. However, if you follow theology it wasn't His life He was ending, it was for wickedness. It had nothing to do with Him not wanting to live, that is the difference check the definition.

He ended wickedness by sacrificing himself. That sacrifice has everything to do with Him wanting to die, which is what makes it suicide.

But you're not following the argument, as it wasn't "life" He was trying to end.

Define "life". Most definitions have life ending when one dies. Christ died.

Life on EARTH, and life in ETERNITY. Life does not end here and Jesus obviously knew it, that goes without saying. Jesus didn't "kill" Himself because He wanted to escape and rot away, that was not what He did which is why you need to examine the definition.

Show me in scripture where Jesus thought He was ending His "life" and not resurrecting it.... You are unable to follow the theology.

If you're saying that Christ didn't "die", then he didn't "sacrifice" anything. I mean, IMHO Christianity is full of such contradictions...I'll leave it to you to explain this one if you wish.

It's strange to me that you're not getting it, I find it odd you cannot follow what I'm saying as it is very simple. He died in the "flesh", but was raised in spirit, He knew He would not end His life but continue it. People don't commit suicide to go to Heaven lol! They do it to end their life because they think when they end it they have no more consciousness, but that is not what Jesus did as He wasn't going to the cross out of despair! Please examine the definition, as this is not what Christ did.

So, the man who throws a dollar into the charity bin, knowing he is going to get another ten dollars back... is "donating", or "sacrificing"?

Sounds legit.

Clearly, assuming Christianity is correct, Jesus knew he wasn't going to to ultimately die, hence his suicide is rather insignificant compared to somebody who does not believe their consciousness will survive his death. Hence, what is the all the fuss about with Jesus being lamb of God? Smells of horsepoop to be quite frank, this is what happens when you try to square the circle... People start crying.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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3/17/2015 8:08:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 7:59:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:56:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:45:28 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Define "life". Most definitions have life ending when one dies. Christ died.

Life on EARTH, and life in ETERNITY. Life does not end here and Jesus obviously knew it, that goes without saying. Jesus didn't "kill" Himself because He wanted to escape and rot away, that was not what He did which is why you need to examine the definition.

This is where the religious assert speculative statements as fact. You think life is more than what is commonly defined as life. I mean, you're free to do so, most religions do. Just don't be surprised when people don't see any reason to be convinced one way or another about it.

Wow, so you can't see theology and you can't read a definition, so where do we go from here??

Show me in scripture where Jesus thought He was ending His "life" and not resurrecting it.... You are unable to follow the theology.

If you're saying that Christ didn't "die", then he didn't "sacrifice" anything. I mean, IMHO Christianity is full of such contradictions...I'll leave it to you to explain this one if you wish.

It's strange to me that you're not getting it, I find it odd you cannot follow what I'm saying as it is very simple. He died in the "flesh",

Right here you agree he committed suicide. Thank you very much, this discussion is over.

The WORD you are looking for is sacrifice, not suicide, I urge you to look at the definition. Christ didn't commit suicide out of despair or to end life, He gave an offering of Himself to give more life, that's called sacrifice not suicide.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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3/17/2015 8:11:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 8:08:14 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:59:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:56:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:45:28 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Define "life". Most definitions have life ending when one dies. Christ died.

Life on EARTH, and life in ETERNITY. Life does not end here and Jesus obviously knew it, that goes without saying. Jesus didn't "kill" Himself because He wanted to escape and rot away, that was not what He did which is why you need to examine the definition.

This is where the religious assert speculative statements as fact. You think life is more than what is commonly defined as life. I mean, you're free to do so, most religions do. Just don't be surprised when people don't see any reason to be convinced one way or another about it.

Wow, so you can't see theology and you can't read a definition, so where do we go from here??

I read your definition, and told you exactly what I think of it. You're asserting speculative statements as fact, and I see no reason to think one way or another about it.

It's strange to me that you're not getting it, I find it odd you cannot follow what I'm saying as it is very simple. He died in the "flesh",

Right here you agree he committed suicide. Thank you very much, this discussion is over.

The WORD you are looking for is sacrifice, not suicide, I urge you to look at the definition. Christ didn't commit suicide out of despair or to end life, He gave an offering of Himself to give more life, that's called sacrifice not suicide.

When you willingly "sacrifice your life", that's called suicide. You may call it your "mortal/flesh life" if you want, in which case he committed a "mortal/flesh suicide".
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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3/17/2015 8:11:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 8:01:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:56:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:45:28 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:40:33 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:27:59 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:15:57 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 9:31:07 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:49:36 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Yes Jesus committed suicide.
Jesus knew if he claimed to be the messiah he would be killed for blasphemy. He warned his disciples he was going to die and according to him he had to die to fulfill the prophesies of Isaiah. Jesus offered himself up to the High priests and claimed his was the messiah and prepared for certain death. It was a suicidal move by Jesus.

But could he have stopped the authorities? Surely someone who could turn water to wine and raise the dead could have prevented the authorities from killing him.

Yes, which is what makes it voluntary. However, if you follow theology it wasn't His life He was ending, it was for wickedness. It had nothing to do with Him not wanting to live, that is the difference check the definition.

He ended wickedness by sacrificing himself. That sacrifice has everything to do with Him wanting to die, which is what makes it suicide.

But you're not following the argument, as it wasn't "life" He was trying to end.

Define "life". Most definitions have life ending when one dies. Christ died.

Life on EARTH, and life in ETERNITY. Life does not end here and Jesus obviously knew it, that goes without saying. Jesus didn't "kill" Himself because He wanted to escape and rot away, that was not what He did which is why you need to examine the definition.

Show me in scripture where Jesus thought He was ending His "life" and not resurrecting it.... You are unable to follow the theology.

If you're saying that Christ didn't "die", then he didn't "sacrifice" anything. I mean, IMHO Christianity is full of such contradictions...I'll leave it to you to explain this one if you wish.

It's strange to me that you're not getting it, I find it odd you cannot follow what I'm saying as it is very simple. He died in the "flesh", but was raised in spirit, He knew He would not end His life but continue it. People don't commit suicide to go to Heaven lol! They do it to end their life because they think when they end it they have no more consciousness, but that is not what Jesus did as He wasn't going to the cross out of despair! Please examine the definition, as this is not what Christ did.

So, the man who throws a dollar into the charity bin, knowing he is going to get another ten dollars back... is "donating", or "sacrificing"?

Is that your view of sacrifice?

Sounds legit.

Does it?

Clearly, assuming Christianity is correct, Jesus knew he wasn't going to to ultimately die, hence his suicide is rather insignificant compared to somebody who does not believe their consciousness will survive his death. Hence, what is the all the fuss about with Jesus being lamb of God? Smells of horsepoop to be quite frank, this is what happens when you try to square the circle... People start crying.

Jesus didn't approach the cross out of despair and you know it. He was not trying to end life and you know it.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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3/17/2015 8:12:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 8:11:05 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:08:14 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:59:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:56:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:45:28 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Define "life". Most definitions have life ending when one dies. Christ died.

Life on EARTH, and life in ETERNITY. Life does not end here and Jesus obviously knew it, that goes without saying. Jesus didn't "kill" Himself because He wanted to escape and rot away, that was not what He did which is why you need to examine the definition.

This is where the religious assert speculative statements as fact. You think life is more than what is commonly defined as life. I mean, you're free to do so, most religions do. Just don't be surprised when people don't see any reason to be convinced one way or another about it.

Wow, so you can't see theology and you can't read a definition, so where do we go from here??

I read your definition, and told you exactly what I think of it. You're asserting speculative statements as fact, and I see no reason to think one way or another about it.

It's strange to me that you're not getting it, I find it odd you cannot follow what I'm saying as it is very simple. He died in the "flesh",

Right here you agree he committed suicide. Thank you very much, this discussion is over.

The WORD you are looking for is sacrifice, not suicide, I urge you to look at the definition. Christ didn't commit suicide out of despair or to end life, He gave an offering of Himself to give more life, that's called sacrifice not suicide.

When you willingly "sacrifice your life", that's called suicide. You may call it your "mortal/flesh life" if you want, in which case he committed a "mortal/flesh suicide".

The word you are looking for is sacrifice.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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3/17/2015 8:13:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 8:12:10 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:11:05 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:08:14 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:59:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:56:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:45:28 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Define "life". Most definitions have life ending when one dies. Christ died.

Life on EARTH, and life in ETERNITY. Life does not end here and Jesus obviously knew it, that goes without saying. Jesus didn't "kill" Himself because He wanted to escape and rot away, that was not what He did which is why you need to examine the definition.

This is where the religious assert speculative statements as fact. You think life is more than what is commonly defined as life. I mean, you're free to do so, most religions do. Just don't be surprised when people don't see any reason to be convinced one way or another about it.

Wow, so you can't see theology and you can't read a definition, so where do we go from here??

I read your definition, and told you exactly what I think of it. You're asserting speculative statements as fact, and I see no reason to think one way or another about it.

It's strange to me that you're not getting it, I find it odd you cannot follow what I'm saying as it is very simple. He died in the "flesh",

Right here you agree he committed suicide. Thank you very much, this discussion is over.

The WORD you are looking for is sacrifice, not suicide, I urge you to look at the definition. Christ didn't commit suicide out of despair or to end life, He gave an offering of Himself to give more life, that's called sacrifice not suicide.

When you willingly "sacrifice your life", that's called suicide. You may call it your "mortal/flesh life" if you want, in which case he committed a "mortal/flesh suicide".

The word you are looking for is sacrifice.

The words I am now looking for are "semantics manipulation".
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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3/17/2015 8:14:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 8:13:05 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:12:10 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:11:05 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:08:14 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:59:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:56:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:45:28 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Define "life". Most definitions have life ending when one dies. Christ died.

Life on EARTH, and life in ETERNITY. Life does not end here and Jesus obviously knew it, that goes without saying. Jesus didn't "kill" Himself because He wanted to escape and rot away, that was not what He did which is why you need to examine the definition.

This is where the religious assert speculative statements as fact. You think life is more than what is commonly defined as life. I mean, you're free to do so, most religions do. Just don't be surprised when people don't see any reason to be convinced one way or another about it.

Wow, so you can't see theology and you can't read a definition, so where do we go from here??

I read your definition, and told you exactly what I think of it. You're asserting speculative statements as fact, and I see no reason to think one way or another about it.

It's strange to me that you're not getting it, I find it odd you cannot follow what I'm saying as it is very simple. He died in the "flesh",

Right here you agree he committed suicide. Thank you very much, this discussion is over.

The WORD you are looking for is sacrifice, not suicide, I urge you to look at the definition. Christ didn't commit suicide out of despair or to end life, He gave an offering of Himself to give more life, that's called sacrifice not suicide.

When you willingly "sacrifice your life", that's called suicide. You may call it your "mortal/flesh life" if you want, in which case he committed a "mortal/flesh suicide".

The word you are looking for is sacrifice.

The words I am now looking for are "semantics manipulation".

Yes, that is exactly what you are doing, thanks.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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3/17/2015 8:15:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 8:14:02 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:13:05 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:12:10 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:11:05 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:08:14 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:59:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:56:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:45:28 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Define "life". Most definitions have life ending when one dies. Christ died.

Life on EARTH, and life in ETERNITY. Life does not end here and Jesus obviously knew it, that goes without saying. Jesus didn't "kill" Himself because He wanted to escape and rot away, that was not what He did which is why you need to examine the definition.

This is where the religious assert speculative statements as fact. You think life is more than what is commonly defined as life. I mean, you're free to do so, most religions do. Just don't be surprised when people don't see any reason to be convinced one way or another about it.

Wow, so you can't see theology and you can't read a definition, so where do we go from here??

I read your definition, and told you exactly what I think of it. You're asserting speculative statements as fact, and I see no reason to think one way or another about it.

It's strange to me that you're not getting it, I find it odd you cannot follow what I'm saying as it is very simple. He died in the "flesh",

Right here you agree he committed suicide. Thank you very much, this discussion is over.

The WORD you are looking for is sacrifice, not suicide, I urge you to look at the definition. Christ didn't commit suicide out of despair or to end life, He gave an offering of Himself to give more life, that's called sacrifice not suicide.

When you willingly "sacrifice your life", that's called suicide. You may call it your "mortal/flesh life" if you want, in which case he committed a "mortal/flesh suicide".

The word you are looking for is sacrifice.

The words I am now looking for are "semantics manipulation".

Yes, that is exactly what you are doing, thanks.

Actually, you should be pointing that finger at yourself, mister.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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3/17/2015 8:21:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 8:11:12 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:01:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:56:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:45:28 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:40:33 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:27:59 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:15:57 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 9:31:07 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:49:36 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Yes Jesus committed suicide.
Jesus knew if he claimed to be the messiah he would be killed for blasphemy. He warned his disciples he was going to die and according to him he had to die to fulfill the prophesies of Isaiah. Jesus offered himself up to the High priests and claimed his was the messiah and prepared for certain death. It was a suicidal move by Jesus.

But could he have stopped the authorities? Surely someone who could turn water to wine and raise the dead could have prevented the authorities from killing him.

Yes, which is what makes it voluntary. However, if you follow theology it wasn't His life He was ending, it was for wickedness. It had nothing to do with Him not wanting to live, that is the difference check the definition.

He ended wickedness by sacrificing himself. That sacrifice has everything to do with Him wanting to die, which is what makes it suicide.

But you're not following the argument, as it wasn't "life" He was trying to end.

Define "life". Most definitions have life ending when one dies. Christ died.

Life on EARTH, and life in ETERNITY. Life does not end here and Jesus obviously knew it, that goes without saying. Jesus didn't "kill" Himself because He wanted to escape and rot away, that was not what He did which is why you need to examine the definition.

Show me in scripture where Jesus thought He was ending His "life" and not resurrecting it.... You are unable to follow the theology.

If you're saying that Christ didn't "die", then he didn't "sacrifice" anything. I mean, IMHO Christianity is full of such contradictions...I'll leave it to you to explain this one if you wish.

It's strange to me that you're not getting it, I find it odd you cannot follow what I'm saying as it is very simple. He died in the "flesh", but was raised in spirit, He knew He would not end His life but continue it. People don't commit suicide to go to Heaven lol! They do it to end their life because they think when they end it they have no more consciousness, but that is not what Jesus did as He wasn't going to the cross out of despair! Please examine the definition, as this is not what Christ did.

So, the man who throws a dollar into the charity bin, knowing he is going to get another ten dollars back... is "donating", or "sacrificing"?

Is that your view of sacrifice?

Sacrifice = willingly giving up something.
However, giving uopsomething when you know you are getting something in return is clearly not a sacrifice.

Sounds legit.

Does it?

Its a sarcastic idiom...

Clearly, assuming Christianity is correct, Jesus knew he wasn't going to to ultimately die, hence his suicide is rather insignificant compared to somebody who does not believe their consciousness will survive his death. Hence, what is the all the fuss about with Jesus being lamb of God? Smells of horsepoop to be quite frank, this is what happens when you try to square the circle... People start crying.

Jesus didn't approach the cross out of despair and you know it. He was not trying to end life and you know it.

He was trying to stay alive? Or he knew he wasn't going to truly die? In either case, Jesus wasn't sacrificing his life. Suicide in matter which way you slice it, he was trying to kill himself, even if he knew his spirit was going to live on. Lest all modern day suicides by christiant not be labelled "suicides" since they believe in an afterlife.... Lol.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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3/17/2015 8:22:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 8:15:10 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:14:02 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:13:05 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:12:10 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:11:05 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:08:14 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:59:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:56:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:45:28 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Define "life". Most definitions have life ending when one dies. Christ died.

Life on EARTH, and life in ETERNITY. Life does not end here and Jesus obviously knew it, that goes without saying. Jesus didn't "kill" Himself because He wanted to escape and rot away, that was not what He did which is why you need to examine the definition.

This is where the religious assert speculative statements as fact. You think life is more than what is commonly defined as life. I mean, you're free to do so, most religions do. Just don't be surprised when people don't see any reason to be convinced one way or another about it.

Wow, so you can't see theology and you can't read a definition, so where do we go from here??

I read your definition, and told you exactly what I think of it. You're asserting speculative statements as fact, and I see no reason to think one way or another about it.

It's strange to me that you're not getting it, I find it odd you cannot follow what I'm saying as it is very simple. He died in the "flesh",

Right here you agree he committed suicide. Thank you very much, this discussion is over.

The WORD you are looking for is sacrifice, not suicide, I urge you to look at the definition. Christ didn't commit suicide out of despair or to end life, He gave an offering of Himself to give more life, that's called sacrifice not suicide.

When you willingly "sacrifice your life", that's called suicide. You may call it your "mortal/flesh life" if you want, in which case he committed a "mortal/flesh suicide".

The word you are looking for is sacrifice.

The words I am now looking for are "semantics manipulation".

Yes, that is exactly what you are doing, thanks.

Actually, you should be pointing that finger at yourself, mister.

Jesus surrendered Himself as an OFFERING! He did not commit suicide out of despair to end His life! that is called a sacrifice, go research what committing suicide actually is. It's when people end there life out of hatred or despair, they see no hope and they don't believe they will exists anymore, you and I both know that is NOT what Jesus did, look at the definitions!
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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3/17/2015 8:25:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 8:22:20 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:15:10 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Jesus [sacrificed HIs life] as an OFFERING! He did not commit suicide out of despair [rather, he committed suicide for others' benefit]! that is called a sacrifice []. It's when people end there life out of hatred or despair [wrong, there is no such distinction], they see no hope and they don't believe they will exists anymore [this is only one kind of suicide, a hateful, despair-ridden kind of suicide. Christ committed a hopeful, optimistic suicide]!
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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3/17/2015 8:25:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 8:21:03 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:11:12 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:01:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:56:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:45:28 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:40:33 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:27:59 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:15:57 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 9:31:07 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:49:36 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Yes Jesus committed suicide.
Jesus knew if he claimed to be the messiah he would be killed for blasphemy. He warned his disciples he was going to die and according to him he had to die to fulfill the prophesies of Isaiah. Jesus offered himself up to the High priests and claimed his was the messiah and prepared for certain death. It was a suicidal move by Jesus.

But could he have stopped the authorities? Surely someone who could turn water to wine and raise the dead could have prevented the authorities from killing him.

Yes, which is what makes it voluntary. However, if you follow theology it wasn't His life He was ending, it was for wickedness. It had nothing to do with Him not wanting to live, that is the difference check the definition.

He ended wickedness by sacrificing himself. That sacrifice has everything to do with Him wanting to die, which is what makes it suicide.

But you're not following the argument, as it wasn't "life" He was trying to end.

Define "life". Most definitions have life ending when one dies. Christ died.

Life on EARTH, and life in ETERNITY. Life does not end here and Jesus obviously knew it, that goes without saying. Jesus didn't "kill" Himself because He wanted to escape and rot away, that was not what He did which is why you need to examine the definition.

Show me in scripture where Jesus thought He was ending His "life" and not resurrecting it.... You are unable to follow the theology.

If you're saying that Christ didn't "die", then he didn't "sacrifice" anything. I mean, IMHO Christianity is full of such contradictions...I'll leave it to you to explain this one if you wish.

It's strange to me that you're not getting it, I find it odd you cannot follow what I'm saying as it is very simple. He died in the "flesh", but was raised in spirit, He knew He would not end His life but continue it. People don't commit suicide to go to Heaven lol! They do it to end their life because they think when they end it they have no more consciousness, but that is not what Jesus did as He wasn't going to the cross out of despair! Please examine the definition, as this is not what Christ did.

So, the man who throws a dollar into the charity bin, knowing he is going to get another ten dollars back... is "donating", or "sacrificing"?

Is that your view of sacrifice?

Sacrifice = willingly giving up something.
However, giving uopsomething when you know you are getting something in return is clearly not a sacrifice.

Sounds legit.

Does it?

Its a sarcastic idiom...

Clearly, assuming Christianity is correct, Jesus knew he wasn't going to to ultimately die, hence his suicide is rather insignificant compared to somebody who does not believe their consciousness will survive his death. Hence, what is the all the fuss about with Jesus being lamb of God? Smells of horsepoop to be quite frank, this is what happens when you try to square the circle... People start crying.

Jesus didn't approach the cross out of despair and you know it. He was not trying to end life and you know it.

He was trying to stay alive? Or he knew he wasn't going to truly die? In either case, Jesus wasn't sacrificing his life. Suicide in matter which way you slice it, he was trying to kill himself, even if he knew his spirit was going to live on. Lest all modern day suicides by christiant not be labelled "suicides" since they believe in an afterlife.... Lol.

Dude look at the dern definitions!! Suicide is the word here. Why are you always logical (most of the time) and then suddenly not? You are gonna sit there and tell me you don't know the difference between suicide and sacrifice!
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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3/17/2015 8:29:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 8:25:21 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:22:20 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:15:10 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Jesus [sacrificed HIs life] as an OFFERING! He did not commit suicide out of despair [rather, he committed suicide for others' benefit]! that is called a sacrifice []. It's when people end there life out of hatred or despair [wrong, there is no such distinction], they see no hope and they don't believe they will exists anymore [this is only one kind of suicide, a hateful, despair-ridden kind of suicide. Christ committed a hopeful, optimistic suicide]!
http://en.wikipedia.org...

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

the act of killing yourself because you do not want to continue living

is the act of intentionally causing one's own death. Suicide is often carried out as a result of despair, the cause of which is frequently attributed to a mental disorder such as depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder,[1] alcoholism, or drug abuse.[2] Stress factors such as financial difficulties or troubles with interpersonal relationships often play a role. Efforts to prevent suicide include limiting access to method of suicide such as firearms and poisons, treating mental illness and drug misuse, and improving economic circumstances. Although crisis hotlines are common, there is little evidence for their effectiveness.[3]
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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3/17/2015 8:31:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 8:29:41 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:25:21 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:22:20 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:15:10 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Jesus [sacrificed HIs life] as an OFFERING! He did not commit suicide out of despair [rather, he committed suicide for others' benefit]! that is called a sacrifice []. It's when people end there life out of hatred or despair [wrong, there is no such distinction], they see no hope and they don't believe they will exists anymore [this is only one kind of suicide, a hateful, despair-ridden kind of suicide. Christ committed a hopeful, optimistic suicide]!
http://en.wikipedia.org...

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

the act of killing yourself because you do not want to continue living

Exactly what Christ did.

is the act of intentionally causing one's own death. Suicide is often carried out as a result of despair, the cause of which is frequently attributed to a mental disorder such as depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder,[1] alcoholism, or drug abuse.[2] Stress factors such as financial difficulties or troubles with interpersonal relationships often play a role. Efforts to prevent suicide include limiting access to method of suicide such as firearms and poisons, treating mental illness and drug misuse, and improving economic circumstances. Although crisis hotlines are common, there is little evidence for their effectiveness.[3]

Key word is "often". Not "always"...meaning that there are other reasons for suicide other than what wikipedia listed.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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3/17/2015 8:35:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 8:25:52 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:21:03 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:11:12 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:01:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:56:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:45:28 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:40:33 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:27:59 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 7:15:57 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 9:31:07 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/17/2015 8:49:36 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Yes Jesus committed suicide.
Jesus knew if he claimed to be the messiah he would be killed for blasphemy. He warned his disciples he was going to die and according to him he had to die to fulfill the prophesies of Isaiah. Jesus offered himself up to the High priests and claimed his was the messiah and prepared for certain death. It was a suicidal move by Jesus.

But could he have stopped the authorities? Surely someone who could turn water to wine and raise the dead could have prevented the authorities from killing him.

Yes, which is what makes it voluntary. However, if you follow theology it wasn't His life He was ending, it was for wickedness. It had nothing to do with Him not wanting to live, that is the difference check the definition.

He ended wickedness by sacrificing himself. That sacrifice has everything to do with Him wanting to die, which is what makes it suicide.

But you're not following the argument, as it wasn't "life" He was trying to end.

Define "life". Most definitions have life ending when one dies. Christ died.

Life on EARTH, and life in ETERNITY. Life does not end here and Jesus obviously knew it, that goes without saying. Jesus didn't "kill" Himself because He wanted to escape and rot away, that was not what He did which is why you need to examine the definition.

Show me in scripture where Jesus thought He was ending His "life" and not resurrecting it.... You are unable to follow the theology.

If you're saying that Christ didn't "die", then he didn't "sacrifice" anything. I mean, IMHO Christianity is full of such contradictions...I'll leave it to you to explain this one if you wish.

It's strange to me that you're not getting it, I find it odd you cannot follow what I'm saying as it is very simple. He died in the "flesh", but was raised in spirit, He knew He would not end His life but continue it. People don't commit suicide to go to Heaven lol! They do it to end their life because they think when they end it they have no more consciousness, but that is not what Jesus did as He wasn't going to the cross out of despair! Please examine the definition, as this is not what Christ did.

So, the man who throws a dollar into the charity bin, knowing he is going to get another ten dollars back... is "donating", or "sacrificing"?

Is that your view of sacrifice?

Sacrifice = willingly giving up something.
However, giving uopsomething when you know you are getting something in return is clearly not a sacrifice.

Sounds legit.

Does it?

Its a sarcastic idiom...

Clearly, assuming Christianity is correct, Jesus knew he wasn't going to to ultimately die, hence his suicide is rather insignificant compared to somebody who does not believe their consciousness will survive his death. Hence, what is the all the fuss about with Jesus being lamb of God? Smells of horsepoop to be quite frank, this is what happens when you try to square the circle... People start crying.

Jesus didn't approach the cross out of despair and you know it. He was not trying to end life and you know it.

He was trying to stay alive? Or he knew he wasn't going to truly die? In either case, Jesus wasn't sacrificing his life. Suicide in matter which way you slice it, he was trying to kill himself, even if he knew his spirit was going to live on. Lest all modern day suicides by christiant not be labelled "suicides" since they believe in an afterlife.... Lol.

Dude look at the dern definitions!! Suicide is the word here. Why are you always logical (most of the time) and then suddenly not? You are gonna sit there and tell me you don't know the difference between suicide and sacrifice!

Perhaps it wasn't too wise of me to mesh in a separate argument here, as they got mixed up. I was arguing that your concessions to argue Jesus' death was not a suicide also entails Jesus' death was not a sacrifice. Thus you undermine your own theology by defending against the OP in the manner in which you did.

Albeit I did articulate it very poorly... I should know better than to type with one eye open at 2am on an iPhone...