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MEK
Posts: 253
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3/19/2015 2:45:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

Sam Harris vs W.L. Craig
Christopher Hitchens vs Denish D'souza or anyone for that matter.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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3/19/2015 2:47:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 2:45:46 PM, MEK wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

Sam Harris vs W.L. Craig
Christopher Hitchens vs Denish D'souza or anyone for that matter.

Seen the Sam Harris and WLC ONE,

watching the Hitchens and D'Souza one right now, although I've seen it before.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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3/19/2015 2:54:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

here my list... my best favorite debater is Ahmed Deedat not because he is a muslim but for his comedy its never gets old im sure you would like him here a small example what i mean... https://www.youtube.com...

debates:

Is Jesus God? Ahmed Deedat VS Stanley Sjoberg
https://www.youtube.com...

Quran or Bible - which is God's word? Ahmed Deedat VS Anis Shorrosh (Main Part)
https://www.youtube.com...

he has many debates but anyway its open for you to check him....

Bart Ehrman vs. James White Debate P1+2. --- 3 hours but good one... about the authenticity of the Bible...
https://www.youtube.com...

Was the #Quran Reliably Transmitted from the Prophet Muhammad
https://www.youtube.com...

or check this one full of debates... enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com...
Never fart near dog
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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3/19/2015 3:32:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

If you like science, then I recommend William Lane Craig vs. Sean Carroll. Personally, I prefer just reading books, Graham Oppy is by far my favourite atheist writer, Immanuel Kant, St. Anselm, And Richard Swinburne are the best I come across for theist writers.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
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3/19/2015 3:35:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 2:45:46 PM, MEK wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

Sam Harris vs W.L. Craig

No.

WLC vs Shelly Kagan. That's one the few debates where Craig didn't just destroy his opponents (and he destroyed Harris) because Kagan is also a philosopher and a debater.

Christopher Hitchens vs Denish D'souza or anyone for that matter.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
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3/19/2015 3:42:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Don't really watch too many youtube debates but if you wanna listen to a bunch of high quality debates check out the unbelievable podcast. Every week there is usually some really interesting debate.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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3/19/2015 3:45:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 3:43:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
WLC vs Peter Millican is another good one

+1 on this one.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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3/19/2015 5:54:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 5:46:47 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
I enjoy Matt Dilahunty fan and AronRa as well. Here are two that I find particularly interesting.

https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...

Those are two of the bigger wastes of times that exist on youtube. Watch for a guide on how NOT to debate & argue.
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
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3/19/2015 6:14:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 5:54:29 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 3/19/2015 5:46:47 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
I enjoy Matt Dilahunty fan and AronRa as well. Here are two that I find particularly interesting.

https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...

Those are two of the bigger wastes of times that exist on youtube. Watch for a guide on how NOT to debate & argue.

What may be waste of time for you, is an enjoyment for me. But hey, thanks for your opinion, not that it matters.
MEK
Posts: 253
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3/19/2015 11:58:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 3:35:39 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:45:46 PM, MEK wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

Sam Harris vs W.L. Craig

No.

WLC vs Shelly Kagan. That's one the few debates where Craig didn't just destroy his opponents (and he destroyed Harris) because Kagan is also a philosopher and a debater.

Really?? On what basis did Craig win that debate? Craig is simply lost to Harris' logic and intellectual reasoning in his describing reasons why religious ideology is obtuse.

All Craig does in response (as he does in most his debates) is make the logical fallacies of false attribution, reification and over simplification by presupposing a supernatural cause for a human construct, in this case - morality ("if we have moral truths then we must have a moral truth giver -therefore god.."). This is the basis for his entire argument, which in my opinion, does not establish a reasonable position at all but rather is at risk of infinite regression - another logical fallacy.

Harris does not even bother pointing this out but rather tries to use analogous examples in practical terms to illustrate Craig's ( and most religious apologists) specious idea of there existing some loving, all powerful supernatural entity.

Bottom line - Harris does not use any presuppositions to support the claim that human morality comes from a long history of evolutionary adaptation. Craig cannot support his position of God WITHOUT a presupposition. End of story.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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3/20/2015 12:07:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 11:58:38 PM, MEK wrote:
At 3/19/2015 3:35:39 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:45:46 PM, MEK wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

Sam Harris vs W.L. Craig

No.

WLC vs Shelly Kagan. That's one the few debates where Craig didn't just destroy his opponents (and he destroyed Harris) because Kagan is also a philosopher and a debater.

Really?? On what basis did Craig win that debate? Craig is simply lost to Harris' logic and intellectual reasoning in his describing reasons why religious ideology is obtuse.

All Craig does in response (as he does in most his debates) is make the logical fallacies of false attribution, reification and over simplification by presupposing a supernatural cause for a human construct, in this case - morality ("if we have moral truths then we must have a moral truth giver -therefore god.."). This is the basis for his entire argument, which in my opinion, does not establish a reasonable position at all but rather is at risk of infinite regression - another logical fallacy.

Harris does not even bother pointing this out but rather tries to use analogous examples in practical terms to illustrate Craig's ( and most religious apologists) specious idea of there existing some loving, all powerful supernatural entity.

Bottom line - Harris does not use any presuppositions to support the claim that human morality comes from a long history of evolutionary adaptation. Craig cannot support his position of God WITHOUT a presupposition. End of story.

If you want to take that route then one can say that Harris presupposes that there is no God and that evolution is an entirely natural phenomena. That is also a presupposition.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/20/2015 12:24:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2015 12:07:50 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Harris presupposes that there is no God and that evolution is an entirely natural phenomena. That is also a presupposition.

Evolution can work with or without a creator of the universe (whatever that may mean.) It's simply a mechanism.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
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3/20/2015 1:00:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 11:58:38 PM, MEK wrote:
At 3/19/2015 3:35:39 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:45:46 PM, MEK wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

Sam Harris vs W.L. Craig

No.

WLC vs Shelly Kagan. That's one the few debates where Craig didn't just destroy his opponents (and he destroyed Harris) because Kagan is also a philosopher and a debater.

Really?? On what basis did Craig win that debate? Craig is simply lost to Harris' logic and intellectual reasoning in his describing reasons why religious ideology is obtuse.

All Craig does in response (as he does in most his debates) is make the logical fallacies of false attribution, reification and over simplification by presupposing a supernatural cause for a human construct, in this case - morality ("if we have moral truths then we must have a moral truth giver -therefore god.."). This is the basis for his entire argument, which in my opinion, does not establish a reasonable position at all but rather is at risk of infinite regression - another logical fallacy.

Harris does not even bother pointing this out but rather tries to use analogous examples in practical terms to illustrate Craig's ( and most religious apologists) specious idea of there existing some loving, all powerful supernatural entity.

Bottom line - Harris does not use any presuppositions to support the claim that human morality comes from a long history of evolutionary adaptation. Craig cannot support his position of God WITHOUT a presupposition. End of story.

No, Harris was awful. Craig presented several challenging philosophical objections to Harris' metaethical position and Harris replied to this by going off topic and whining about elements of Christian doctrine (hell, particularism, problem of evil) or the bible that he doesn't like. That's a cool story and all (and there might even be something to his whining) BUT THAT WASN'T THE SUBJECT OF THE DEBATE. He didn't a actually address Craig's criticisms...at all.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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3/20/2015 2:10:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

A classic one.

Hamza Tzortzis and Lawarence Krauss.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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3/20/2015 3:37:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2015 1:00:26 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/19/2015 11:58:38 PM, MEK wrote:
At 3/19/2015 3:35:39 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:45:46 PM, MEK wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

Sam Harris vs W.L. Craig

No.

WLC vs Shelly Kagan. That's one the few debates where Craig didn't just destroy his opponents (and he destroyed Harris) because Kagan is also a philosopher and a debater.

Really?? On what basis did Craig win that debate? Craig is simply lost to Harris' logic and intellectual reasoning in his describing reasons why religious ideology is obtuse.

All Craig does in response (as he does in most his debates) is make the logical fallacies of false attribution, reification and over simplification by presupposing a supernatural cause for a human construct, in this case - morality ("if we have moral truths then we must have a moral truth giver -therefore god.."). This is the basis for his entire argument, which in my opinion, does not establish a reasonable position at all but rather is at risk of infinite regression - another logical fallacy.

Harris does not even bother pointing this out but rather tries to use analogous examples in practical terms to illustrate Craig's ( and most religious apologists) specious idea of there existing some loving, all powerful supernatural entity.

Bottom line - Harris does not use any presuppositions to support the claim that human morality comes from a long history of evolutionary adaptation. Craig cannot support his position of God WITHOUT a presupposition. End of story.

No, Harris was awful. Craig presented several challenging philosophical objections to Harris' metaethical position and Harris replied to this by going off topic and whining about elements of Christian doctrine (hell, particularism, problem of evil) or the bible that he doesn't like. That's a cool story and all (and there might even be something to his whining) BUT THAT WASN'T THE SUBJECT OF THE DEBATE. He didn't a actually address Craig's criticisms...at all.

I Agree, I watched the debate numerous times and Harris lost by a mile, And your review is the way most critics reviewed the debate. Harris simply went of topic.

The Sean Carroll debate was a tougher one for Craig, but to be fair Craig debated him in the field of cosmology, which I have to give credit to Craig for, and sticking to the topic. Although I don't think Carroll offered anything conclusive, he just made matters worse, at the end of it, he doesn't have the faintest idea which model fits the universe best, he only brings up contradictory variables, with no real actuall support for adopting one over the other. Just assumptions.

But he made a good attempt at knocking down Craig's KCA argument.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,237
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3/20/2015 4:42:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

Have you seen the hitchens brothers debate each other?
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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3/20/2015 6:19:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2015 4:42:56 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

Have you seen the hitchens brothers debate each other?

Sounds good, Thanks.
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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3/20/2015 6:29:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

Apparently atheists spell better.
18Karl
Posts: 351
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3/20/2015 6:30:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 2:45:46 PM, MEK wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

Sam Harris vs W.L. Craig
Christopher Hitchens vs Denish D'souza or anyone for that matter.

D'Souza got decimated in the Hitchens debate imho.
praise the lord Chin Chin
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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3/20/2015 7:22:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2015 6:29:56 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

Apparently atheists spell better.

Apparently

You need people like me, so you can point your little fingers, and say "that's the bad guy." Well say good night to the bad guy!
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/20/2015 8:56:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

Debates are like watching children in a sand pile arguing whether or not a stork delivered them to their mothers.
MEK
Posts: 253
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3/20/2015 12:28:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2015 12:07:50 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 3/19/2015 11:58:38 PM, MEK wrote:
At 3/19/2015 3:35:39 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:45:46 PM, MEK wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

Sam Harris vs W.L. Craig

No.

WLC vs Shelly Kagan. That's one the few debates where Craig didn't just destroy his opponents (and he destroyed Harris) because Kagan is also a philosopher and a debater.

Really?? On what basis did Craig win that debate? Craig is simply lost to Harris' logic and intellectual reasoning in his describing reasons why religious ideology is obtuse.

All Craig does in response (as he does in most his debates) is make the logical fallacies of false attribution, reification and over simplification by presupposing a supernatural cause for a human construct, in this case - morality ("if we have moral truths then we must have a moral truth giver -therefore god.."). This is the basis for his entire argument, which in my opinion, does not establish a reasonable position at all but rather is at risk of infinite regression - another logical fallacy.

Harris does not even bother pointing this out but rather tries to use analogous examples in practical terms to illustrate Craig's ( and most religious apologists) specious idea of there existing some loving, all powerful supernatural entity.

Bottom line - Harris does not use any presuppositions to support the claim that human morality comes from a long history of evolutionary adaptation. Craig cannot support his position of God WITHOUT a presupposition. End of story.

If you want to take that route then one can say that Harris presupposes that there is no God and that evolution is an entirely natural phenomena. That is also a presupposition.

I am sorry, but you simply do not understand the difference between subjective beliefs based on a philosophical abstraction and objective truths based on evidence. If you did, you would realize that your statement is completely insular.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
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3/20/2015 12:56:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2015 8:56:46 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

Debates are like watching children in a sand pile arguing whether or not a stork delivered them to their mothers.

Considering you are a eunuch by your own admission. What else could have delivered your children to their mother? Be careful what you wish for. Lol!!!
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,860
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3/20/2015 1:02:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/19/2015 2:24:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
What can you recommend as a good debate to watch on youtube?

https://www.youtube.com...
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MEK
Posts: 253
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3/20/2015 1:55:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/20/2015 1:00:26 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/19/2015 11:58:38 PM, MEK wrote:

Sam Harris vs W.L. Craig


Bottom line - Harris does not use any presuppositions to support the claim that human morality comes from a long history of evolutionary adaptation. Craig cannot support his position of God WITHOUT a presupposition. End of story.

No, Harris was awful. Craig presented several challenging philosophical objections to Harris' metaethical position and Harris replied to this by going off topic and whining about elements of Christian doctrine (hell, particularism, problem of evil) or the bible that he doesn't like. That's a cool story and all (and there might even be something to his whining) BUT THAT WASN'T THE SUBJECT OF THE DEBATE. He didn't a actually address Craig's criticisms...at all.

"Harris was awful"" Are you taking about following the strict rules of a formal debate or the content there in? If you are referring to the former " you may be right but honestly " who cares?? If you are referring to the latter then I believe you simply have misunderstood most of what Harris said, are choosing to ignore it or simply cannot follow Harris" sometimes complex descriptions on morality as it relates to human wellbeing.

So, if you want to argue that Harris lost this debate because he did not follow the rules of engagement properly (addressing each of Craig"s contentions with similar rhetoric) then I will not challenge you as I believe that if that"s your focus than you have missed the forest through the trees.

If, on the other hand, you want to argue Harris lost the debate based on the content presented or that WLC did not stack the cards in his favor- I"m all in. To explain further, I will try to be terse:

WLC lists two contentions " 1. If god exists, we have sound foundation for moral values ".2. If god does not exist - we do not. Now, just with these statements alone he has committed the fallacy of reification and sets up a false dichotomy. But in Craig"s brilliance the next statement out of his mouth is "now I"m not here to discuss whether or not god exists"." Here in lies the problem, WLC has set up the frame work for the debate with a logical fallacy then closes the door on any attempt to refute it by forcing Harris to respond within the confines of that frame work. It is a lose - lose for Harris.

Harris, simply ignores this obvious move and attempts to merely analogously say, "This King is wearing no clothing" by pointing out the obviously inane standards of having beliefs in such a system that WLC endorses.
WLC may beat Harris with philosophical rhetoric by making him play a fixed game but Harris easily addresses the bigger picture by challenging Craig to be intellectually honest " a challenge Craig obviously ignores.
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
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3/20/2015 3:38:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Jeff Lowder vs Phil Fernandes

Walter Sinnott-Armstrong vs WLC (on the PoE)

Sean Carroll vs William Lane Craig

Ray Bradley vs WLC (on hell)

Stephen Law vs WLC

Austin dacey vs WLC

(Along with the Kagan debate, they're the strongest atheist performances I can remember).

I'd also add Peter Atkins vs WLC, but that's just cause I hate Atkins and he gets whacked both times against Craig.