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Is God culpable?

PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/20/2010 9:04:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
In the opening chapters of the Book of Genesis, the story details how sin has come to pass.

Adam and Eve ate of the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which was forbidden. Upon consuming the fruit their eyes were open, understanding good from evil.

So riddle me this: If they had no concept of good and evil BEFORE they ate of the fruit, then how is

1. A warning useful?
2. How is it sin?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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7/20/2010 9:11:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Sin is knowingly transgressing God's commandments. So God told them not to eat the fruit. They ate the fruit against God's warning. They violated God's commandments. Thus they sinned
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
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The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
tkubok
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7/20/2010 10:08:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/20/2010 9:11:55 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
Sin is knowingly transgressing God's commandments. So God told them not to eat the fruit. They ate the fruit against God's warning. They violated God's commandments. Thus they sinned

You answered one question, but only the more easier and less damning of the two. Answer the second question, please.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/21/2010 2:42:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/20/2010 9:04:37 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
In the opening chapters of the Book of Genesis, the story details how sin has come to pass.

Adam and Eve ate of the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which was forbidden. Upon consuming the fruit their eyes were open, understanding good from evil.

So riddle me this: If they had no concept of good and evil BEFORE they ate of the fruit, then how is

1. A warning useful?
2. How is it sin?

The alternative to this scenario is unthinkable: NO choice.. this=robot creation; a factory floor nightmare.. a bit like the Matrix movie!
The Cross.. the Cross.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/21/2010 4:05:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/20/2010 9:11:55 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
Sin is knowingly transgressing God's commandments. So God told them not to eat the fruit. They ate the fruit against God's warning. They violated God's commandments. Thus they sinned:

Ah, but they didn't know that by doing so, they were wrong. Indeed the story makes it painfully clear that they couldn't even conceptualize right or wrong.

So per your own description, A&E did not knowingly transgress God's commandments because they only knew it was wrong AFTER the fact.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Cerebral_Narcissist
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7/21/2010 4:07:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/20/2010 9:04:37 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
In the opening chapters of the Book of Genesis, the story details how sin has come to pass.

Adam and Eve ate of the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which was forbidden. Upon consuming the fruit their eyes were open, understanding good from evil.

So riddle me this: If they had no concept of good and evil BEFORE they ate of the fruit, then how is

1. A warning useful?

I don't understand, a warning is useful because it warns.

2. How is it sin?

It is a violation of Gods command.

Sin is nothing to do with Good and evil.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/21/2010 5:00:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The alternative to this scenario is unthinkable: NO choice.. this=robot creation; a factory floor nightmare.. a bit like the Matrix movie!:

It has nothing to do with freewill vs predestination. Is it fair to punish A&E for "sinning" if they had no concept that they were sinning?

Think about it: God warns them not to eat of the fruit, for if they do they'll die. But what do we know of Paul's epistles? We know that death and sin entered the world through Adam.

They therefore had no concept of death or right/wrong? So is not God therefore culpable?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/21/2010 5:09:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
So riddle me this: If they had no concept of good and evil BEFORE they ate of the fruit, then how is

1. A warning useful?

I don't understand, a warning is useful because it warns.:

Yes, but if you have no conceptual understanding of consequences, then a warning is useless. For them it's like saying if you "sdfgjheriodn" then "woierndsdfvb" will happen to you. Is that a useful warning to you?

2. How is it sin?

It is a violation of Gods command.:

Remember to look at it in context with the timeline, because that's important.

Question: How did they know it was sin?

Answer: When they ate of the fruit

Question: When were they warned?

Answer: BEFORE they ate of it.

Do you see how that's circular logic? They 1. Did not know what death was (because death entered the world through Adam according to the bible, and 2. They had no clue what sin was, so warning them was of no use whatsoever. That's the issue. So it begs the question, did God set up the Fall of Man?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Anacharsis
Posts: 139
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7/21/2010 8:51:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Taking the story as a myth, that is to say a fiction that is intended to convey some kind of a truth deeper than the story itself, I would suggest that God in this story wanted Adam and Eve to disobey, but not as Datchmoto suggests. He did not want them to be acting as robots. Rather, this was his way of pushing them into understanding their freedom of will and to take responsibility for themselves. This was the beginning of humanity's movement from being spiritual children to becoming adults; fulfilling the metaphor of God as Father and humans being created in his image. We are meant to become spiritually responsible for ourselves, moving beyond simple creations. I'm just curious when we might make the next steps.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/21/2010 9:22:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 8:51:48 AM, Anacharsis wrote:
Taking the story as a myth, that is to say a fiction that is intended to convey some kind of a truth deeper than the story itself, I would suggest that God in this story wanted Adam and Eve to disobey, but not as Datchmoto suggests. He did not want them to be acting as robots. Rather, this was his way of pushing them into understanding their freedom of will and to take responsibility for themselves.:

Strictly from a literary point of view, I share that same understanding of the narrative as well, but you will find most fundamentalists/literalists taking strong exception to that interpretation, probably because it involves deceit on the part of God.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Valtarov
Posts: 136
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7/21/2010 10:11:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 4:05:22 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 7/20/2010 9:11:55 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
Sin is knowingly transgressing God's commandments. So God told them not to eat the fruit. They ate the fruit against God's warning. They violated God's commandments. Thus they sinned:

Ah, but they didn't know that by doing so, they were wrong. Indeed the story makes it painfully clear that they couldn't even conceptualize right or wrong.

So per your own description, A&E did not knowingly transgress God's commandments because they only knew it was wrong AFTER the fact.

1: Genesis account of creation and fall of man is highly non-literal and poetic.

2: The point is this: to a perfect, heavenly being, right and wrong have no meaning. They are intrinsically good; they don't have to bother around with wondering whether their action is right, because their action cannot not be right. When man was given a choice, and fell, it introduced something (thus the tree with connotations of seeds, growth, etc.) that made man have to worry about whether what they did is right or not.
"We are half-hearted creatures,
fooling about with drink and sex and
ambition when infinite joy is offered us,
like an ignorant child who wants to go on
making mud pies in a slum because he
cannot imagine what is meant by the offer
of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily
pleased."—C.S. Lewis, "The Weight of Glory"
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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7/21/2010 10:14:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 5:09:47 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
So riddle me this: If they had no concept of good and evil BEFORE they ate of the fruit, then how is

1. A warning useful?

I don't understand, a warning is useful because it warns.:

Yes, but if you have no conceptual understanding of consequences, then a warning is useless. For them it's like saying if you "sdfgjheriodn" then "woierndsdfvb" will happen to you. Is that a useful warning to you?

2. How is it sin?

It is a violation of Gods command.:

Remember to look at it in context with the timeline, because that's important.

Question: How did they know it was sin?

Answer: When they ate of the fruit

Question: When were they warned?

Answer: BEFORE they ate of it.

Do you see how that's circular logic? They 1. Did not know what death was (because death entered the world through Adam according to the bible, and 2. They had no clue what sin was, so warning them was of no use whatsoever. That's the issue. So it begs the question, did God set up the Fall of Man?

However,
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree
of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not
eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die." 18 Then the LORD God said, "It
is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him."

There is no suggestion that Adam did not understand the warning.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Anacharsis
Posts: 139
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7/21/2010 10:29:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
There are numerous mystical aspects to this story, but another one that comes to mind from some of these posts comes from the idea of their "eyes being opened" and the warning from God that "they would die". These relate unambiguously in my mind to a recognition of duality in the world, the development of a consciousness of self and separation from God, with whom they had formerly been at one. To know the difference between good and evil one must hold a belief in a fundamental dichotomy of things. Sikhism speaks directly of separation from God as a spiritual death. I don't want to take the discussion away from the Bible or the original subject of the thread, but just relating it to a larger human experience.

By becoming separated from God through our recognition of duality and expulsion from the "garden" we take birth and begin the process of developing our own spiritual development.
Anacharsis
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7/21/2010 10:36:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 10:29:40 AM, Anacharsis wrote:
These relate unambiguously in my mind to a recognition of duality in the world, the development of a consciousness of self and separation from God, with whom they had formerly been at one.

Thus it relates also to our separation from nature and our recognition of our selves as objects of contemplation, setting us apart from the animals. It mythologically describes the moment in evolution when we became not merely a less hairy ape, but something more.
mattrodstrom
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7/21/2010 10:48:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 2:42:55 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/20/2010 9:04:37 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
In the opening chapters of the Book of Genesis, the story details how sin has come to pass.

Adam and Eve ate of the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which was forbidden. Upon consuming the fruit their eyes were open, understanding good from evil.

So riddle me this: If they had no concept of good and evil BEFORE they ate of the fruit, then how is

1. A warning useful?
2. How is it sin?

The alternative to this scenario is unthinkable: NO choice.. this=robot creation; a factory floor nightmare.. a bit like the Matrix movie!

how bout the other one... where God just leaves Existence at UTTER PERFECTION.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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7/21/2010 10:48:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 10:48:02 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
how bout the other one... where God just leaves Existence at UTTER PERFECTION.

(doesn't create)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/21/2010 10:53:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
There is no suggestion that Adam did not understand the warning.:

Then why only after they ate of it, did they realize they did something wrong?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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7/21/2010 11:04:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 10:53:30 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
There is no suggestion that Adam did not understand the warning.:

Then why only after they ate of it, did they realize they did something wrong?

God told them of the consequences even before he created Eve. So they knew it was sin. However they only understood sin once they ate of the apple... oh wait... yea...

Ignoring that God is culupable due to omniscience and omnipotence anyway.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
tkubok
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7/21/2010 5:28:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
God isnt culpable, the same way a US president isnt culpable of Treason. If theres no one with the power to prosecute, the theres no culpability.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/21/2010 5:30:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 5:28:22 PM, tkubok wrote:
God isnt culpable, the same way a US president isnt culpable of Treason. If theres no one with the power to prosecute, the theres no culpability.:

Then supposing their was, would God be culpable? Or in the least, was God being hypocritical?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
lovelife
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7/21/2010 5:32:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 5:28:22 PM, tkubok wrote:
God isnt culpable, the same way a US president isnt culpable of Treason.

The president can commit treason. Maybe you should find a diff example.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
tkubok
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7/21/2010 5:56:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 5:30:00 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 7/21/2010 5:28:22 PM, tkubok wrote:
God isnt culpable, the same way a US president isnt culpable of Treason. If theres no one with the power to prosecute, the theres no culpability.:

Then supposing their was, would God be culpable? Or in the least, was God being hypocritical?

Sure, if there was a war-crimes court, that had the ability to sanction God, then yes, he would be culpable.
tkubok
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7/21/2010 5:58:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 5:32:41 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 7/21/2010 5:28:22 PM, tkubok wrote:
God isnt culpable, the same way a US president isnt culpable of Treason.

The president can commit treason. Maybe you should find a diff example.

No no, if the president were to commit something that any other citizen of the US were to commit, we wouldnt call it treason because, well, hes the president. But its still treason. :(
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/22/2010 3:58:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/20/2010 9:04:37 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
In the opening chapters of the Book of Genesis, the story details how sin has come to pass.

Adam and Eve ate of the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which was forbidden. Upon consuming the fruit their eyes were open, understanding good from evil.

So riddle me this: If they had no concept of good and evil BEFORE they ate of the fruit, then how is

1. A warning useful?
2. How is it sin?

The alternative to this scenario is unthinkable: NO choice.. this=robot creation; a factory floor nightmare.. a bit like the Matrix movie!!
The Cross.. the Cross.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/22/2010 5:05:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The alternative to this scenario is unthinkable: NO choice.. this=robot creation; a factory floor nightmare.. a bit like the Matrix movie!!:

Do you have canned responses that you copy and paste? This is almost exactly what you've typed before, to which I've already responded.

No, it wouldn't be like a robot. This is more along the line of God tempting mankind intentionally.

1. He warns them, yet they have no concept of sin.
2. He provides mankind with an inquisitive nature, and places a forbidden tree in their path.
3. He grants the Serpent (the most cunning of all God's creatures) unlimited access to the two most naive human beings.

Seems to me that it was God who set up the Fall of Man. And who pays for it? We all do.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
DATCMOTO
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7/23/2010 2:46:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 5:05:07 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
The alternative to this scenario is unthinkable: NO choice.. this=robot creation; a factory floor nightmare.. a bit like the Matrix movie!!:

Do you have canned responses that you copy and paste? This is almost exactly what you've typed before, to which I've already responded.
Sorry, I missed your reply.. running this forum is quite time consuming.
No, it wouldn't be like a robot. This is more along the line of God tempting mankind intentionally.
If I have only the option of salad to eat, then how could I be called a healthy eater? BUT if I have the option of salad OR McDonald's and I CHOOSE salad THEN I can be considered such.
1. He warns them, yet they have no concept of sin.
Absolutely, and who could give them that understanding? Only God. So, at SOME POINT they have to trust God's Word and, by default His CHARACTER.
So, trusting God when He says " Do not eat. " is EXACTLY the same.
2. He provides mankind with an inquisitive nature, and places a forbidden tree in their path.
BUT with an extremely explicit warning: " You will surely DIE. "
Again, without the choice there CANNOT be free-will.
3. He grants the Serpent (the most cunning of all God's creatures) unlimited access to the two most naive human beings.
It was, and remains, a simple choice between God's Word and satans word.. How were they to know God is Good?
Seems to me that it was God who set up the Fall of Man. And who pays for it? We all do.
I actually agree with you BUT I happen to think it the utterly most genius and beautiful plan possible..
Because you have not accepted that 2+2=4 (Jesus Christ IS God) then you cannot understand the astro physics of God's Great Plan.
The Cross.. the Cross.