Total Posts:18|Showing Posts:1-18
Jump to topic:

Prayer

s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 12:25:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At issue is the true meaning of prayer. The prayer in ancient times was symbolized by a lucky charm, or token. To the one who possessed it, it was a type of shield against misfortune. The use of prayer, even today, is a plea for protection, a hope for a better tomorrow; it is a cry to God to intervene in a favorable way in a seemingly hopeless situation.

The prayer is practiced, almost universally, by all regardless of one's belief system; from pantheist to atheist, it is seen as a cry as one comes to the end of his, or her, rope.

So, the question remains why would an atheist who has no belief in any god find a need to pray? To the atheist, even though he, or she, does not believe in a god, he, or she, sees a transcendence in the surrounding world, a universe that goes beyond his, or her, self and is greater in size, scope, and power. Being we are smaller less complete beings, we depend and even reach out to the greater reality. We seek to communicate with it in an attempt to, by association, enlarge our own borders. Through prayer we feel connected to our world, we are less alone, and we become more complete.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 1:38:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/21/2015 12:25:54 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At issue is the true meaning of prayer. The prayer in ancient times was symbolized by a lucky charm, or token. To the one who possessed it, it was a type of shield against misfortune. The use of prayer, even today, is a plea for protection, a hope for a better tomorrow; it is a cry to God to intervene in a favorable way in a seemingly hopeless situation.

The prayer is practiced, almost universally, by all regardless of one's belief system; from pantheist to atheist, it is seen as a cry as one comes to the end of his, or her, rope.

So, the question remains why would an atheist who has no belief in any god find a need to pray? To the atheist, even though he, or she, does not believe in a god, he, or she, sees a transcendence in the surrounding world, a universe that goes beyond his, or her, self and is greater in size, scope, and power. Being we are smaller less complete beings, we depend and even reach out to the greater reality. We seek to communicate with it in an attempt to, by association, enlarge our own borders. Through prayer we feel connected to our world, we are less alone, and we become more complete.

You must be using an unusual definition of prayer. I am not aware of any atheists who believe they are speaking to an invisible being at any point.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 2:01:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/21/2015 1:38:11 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/21/2015 12:25:54 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At issue is the true meaning of prayer. The prayer in ancient times was symbolized by a lucky charm, or token. To the one who possessed it, it was a type of shield against misfortune. The use of prayer, even today, is a plea for protection, a hope for a better tomorrow; it is a cry to God to intervene in a favorable way in a seemingly hopeless situation.

The prayer is practiced, almost universally, by all regardless of one's belief system; from pantheist to atheist, it is seen as a cry as one comes to the end of his, or her, rope.

So, the question remains why would an atheist who has no belief in any god find a need to pray? To the atheist, even though he, or she, does not believe in a god, he, or she, sees a transcendence in the surrounding world, a universe that goes beyond his, or her, self and is greater in size, scope, and power. Being we are smaller less complete beings, we depend and even reach out to the greater reality. We seek to communicate with it in an attempt to, by association, enlarge our own borders. Through prayer we feel connected to our world, we are less alone, and we become more complete.

You must be using an unusual definition of prayer. I am not aware of any atheists who believe they are speaking to an invisible being at any point.

At which point in the OP did I say atheists believed they were speaking to an invisible being?
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 2:50:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/21/2015 2:01:01 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 3/21/2015 1:38:11 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/21/2015 12:25:54 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At issue is the true meaning of prayer. The prayer in ancient times was symbolized by a lucky charm, or token. To the one who possessed it, it was a type of shield against misfortune. The use of prayer, even today, is a plea for protection, a hope for a better tomorrow; it is a cry to God to intervene in a favorable way in a seemingly hopeless situation.

The prayer is practiced, almost universally, by all regardless of one's belief system; from pantheist to atheist, it is seen as a cry as one comes to the end of his, or her, rope.

So, the question remains why would an atheist who has no belief in any god find a need to pray? To the atheist, even though he, or she, does not believe in a god, he, or she, sees a transcendence in the surrounding world, a universe that goes beyond his, or her, self and is greater in size, scope, and power. Being we are smaller less complete beings, we depend and even reach out to the greater reality. We seek to communicate with it in an attempt to, by association, enlarge our own borders. Through prayer we feel connected to our world, we are less alone, and we become more complete.

You must be using an unusual definition of prayer. I am not aware of any atheists who believe they are speaking to an invisible being at any point.

At which point in the OP did I say atheists believed they were speaking to an invisible being?

This is how I understand prayer:

prayer - a solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.

If you are an atheist, then I will leave you to your beliefs - though I don't understand an atheist 'praying'. If you are not an atheist, then I'm curious why you would suggest and on what authority you claim atheists pray.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 2:56:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/21/2015 2:50:19 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/21/2015 2:01:01 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 3/21/2015 1:38:11 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/21/2015 12:25:54 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At issue is the true meaning of prayer. The prayer in ancient times was symbolized by a lucky charm, or token. To the one who possessed it, it was a type of shield against misfortune. The use of prayer, even today, is a plea for protection, a hope for a better tomorrow; it is a cry to God to intervene in a favorable way in a seemingly hopeless situation.

The prayer is practiced, almost universally, by all regardless of one's belief system; from pantheist to atheist, it is seen as a cry as one comes to the end of his, or her, rope.

So, the question remains why would an atheist who has no belief in any god find a need to pray? To the atheist, even though he, or she, does not believe in a god, he, or she, sees a transcendence in the surrounding world, a universe that goes beyond his, or her, self and is greater in size, scope, and power. Being we are smaller less complete beings, we depend and even reach out to the greater reality. We seek to communicate with it in an attempt to, by association, enlarge our own borders. Through prayer we feel connected to our world, we are less alone, and we become more complete.

You must be using an unusual definition of prayer. I am not aware of any atheists who believe they are speaking to an invisible being at any point.

At which point in the OP did I say atheists believed they were speaking to an invisible being?

This is how I understand prayer:

prayer - a solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.

If you are an atheist, then I will leave you to your beliefs - though I don't understand an atheist 'praying'. If you are not an atheist, then I'm curious why you would suggest and on what authority you claim atheists pray.

Yeah I didn't understand the premise of the OP either.

(I'm gonna start up a thread about the topics we discussed yesterday later tonight after the Nascar race)
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 3:25:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/21/2015 2:56:26 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 3/21/2015 2:50:19 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/21/2015 2:01:01 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 3/21/2015 1:38:11 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/21/2015 12:25:54 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At issue is the true meaning of prayer. The prayer in ancient times was symbolized by a lucky charm, or token. To the one who possessed it, it was a type of shield against misfortune. The use of prayer, even today, is a plea for protection, a hope for a better tomorrow; it is a cry to God to intervene in a favorable way in a seemingly hopeless situation.

The prayer is practiced, almost universally, by all regardless of one's belief system; from pantheist to atheist, it is seen as a cry as one comes to the end of his, or her, rope.

So, the question remains why would an atheist who has no belief in any god find a need to pray? To the atheist, even though he, or she, does not believe in a god, he, or she, sees a transcendence in the surrounding world, a universe that goes beyond his, or her, self and is greater in size, scope, and power. Being we are smaller less complete beings, we depend and even reach out to the greater reality. We seek to communicate with it in an attempt to, by association, enlarge our own borders. Through prayer we feel connected to our world, we are less alone, and we become more complete.

You must be using an unusual definition of prayer. I am not aware of any atheists who believe they are speaking to an invisible being at any point.

At which point in the OP did I say atheists believed they were speaking to an invisible being?

This is how I understand prayer:

prayer - a solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.

If you are an atheist, then I will leave you to your beliefs - though I don't understand an atheist 'praying'. If you are not an atheist, then I'm curious why you would suggest and on what authority you claim atheists pray.

Yeah I didn't understand the premise of the OP either.

(I'm gonna start up a thread about the topics we discussed yesterday later tonight after the Nascar race)

*thumbs up*
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 3:55:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is how I understand prayer:

prayer - a solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.

Notice, your definition does not make prayer exclusive to those who worship God; it also includes those who worship objects. Prayer for me is an awareness that you need help from something greater than yourself. It is an acknowledgement of humility in the face of a vast universe. One doesn't have to believe in a god to realize his, or her, ineptness or dependence on that which transcends his, or her, self.

If you are an atheist, then I will leave you to your beliefs - though I don't understand an atheist 'praying'. If you are not an atheist, then I'm curious why you would suggest and on what authority you claim atheists pray.
SevenDust
Posts: 50
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 4:00:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/21/2015 12:25:54 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At issue is the true meaning of prayer. The prayer in ancient times was symbolized by a lucky charm, or token. To the one who possessed it, it was a type of shield against misfortune. The use of prayer, even today, is a plea for protection, a hope for a better tomorrow; it is a cry to God to intervene in a favorable way in a seemingly hopeless situation.

The prayer is practiced, almost universally, by all regardless of one's belief system; from pantheist to atheist, it is seen as a cry as one comes to the end of his, or her, rope.

So, the question remains why would an atheist who has no belief in any god find a need to pray? To the atheist, even though he, or she, does not believe in a god, he, or she, sees a transcendence in the surrounding world, a universe that goes beyond his, or her, self and is greater in size, scope, and power. Being we are smaller less complete beings, we depend and even reach out to the greater reality. We seek to communicate with it in an attempt to, by association, enlarge our own borders. Through prayer we feel connected to our world, we are less alone, and we become more complete.

Prayer, IMHO is completely subjective. Even if it does work, doesn"t prove that there is a supernatural entity involved. Nor does it prove that there is one involved. If the individual does believe that a talisman brings good luck is only observed through that person. It is the same as a person who believes that a certain color of shirt, or mismatched socks will keep him/her from harm"s way. It only affects the one, not the collective whole.
Morality is of the highest importance - but for us, not for God.
Albert Einstein
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 4:04:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/21/2015 3:55:05 PM, s-anthony wrote:
This is how I understand prayer:

prayer - a solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.

Notice, your definition does not make prayer exclusive to those who worship God; it also includes those who worship objects. Prayer for me is an awareness that you need help from something greater than yourself. It is an acknowledgement of humility in the face of a vast universe. One doesn't have to believe in a god to realize his, or her, ineptness or dependence on that which transcends his, or her, self.

Do you consider yourself an atheist? Your view strikes me as pantheistic.

If you are an atheist, then I will leave you to your beliefs - though I don't understand an atheist 'praying'. If you are not an atheist, then I'm curious why you would suggest and on what authority you claim atheists pray.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 4:21:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/21/2015 3:55:05 PM, s-anthony wrote:
This is how I understand prayer:

prayer - a solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.

Notice, your definition does not make prayer exclusive to those who worship God; it also includes those who worship objects. Prayer for me is an awareness that you need help from something greater than yourself. It is an acknowledgement of humility in the face of a vast universe. One doesn't have to believe in a god to realize his, or her, ineptness or dependence on that which transcends his, or her, self.

If you are an atheist, then I will leave you to your beliefs - though I don't understand an atheist 'praying'. If you are not an atheist, then I'm curious why you would suggest and on what authority you claim atheists pray.

I mean I guess atheists could pray to their TVs and computers to work properly.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 4:39:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Prayer, IMHO is completely subjective. Even if it does work, doesn"t prove that there is a supernatural entity involved. Nor does it prove that there is one involved. If the individual does believe that a talisman brings good luck is only observed through that person. It is the same as a person who believes that a certain color of shirt, or mismatched socks will keep him/her from harm"s way. It only affects the one, not the collective whole.

You are completely losing me. Nowhere in my OP do I say prayer is objective or subjective; neither do I say it proves anything, including the existence of a god.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 4:46:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Do you consider yourself an atheist? Your view strikes me as pantheistic.

I don't like titles. I believe a little bit of everything.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 4:47:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/21/2015 4:46:31 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Do you consider yourself an atheist? Your view strikes me as pantheistic.

I don't like titles. I believe a little bit of everything.

Do you disbelieve a little of everything too?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 4:49:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/21/2015 4:47:21 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/21/2015 4:46:31 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Do you consider yourself an atheist? Your view strikes me as pantheistic.

I don't like titles. I believe a little bit of everything.

Do you disbelieve a little of everything too?

Yes.
SevenDust
Posts: 50
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 5:25:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/21/2015 4:39:08 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Prayer, IMHO is completely subjective. Even if it does work, doesn"t prove that there is a supernatural entity involved. Nor does it prove that there is one involved. If the individual does believe that a talisman brings good luck is only observed through that person. It is the same as a person who believes that a certain color of shirt, or mismatched socks will keep him/her from harm"s way. It only affects the one, not the collective whole.

You are completely losing me. Nowhere in my OP do I say prayer is objective or subjective; neither do I say it proves anything, including the existence of a god.

You are correct, and my apologies for assuming as such. But you did say that the use of prayer, even today, is a plea for protection, a hope for a better tomorrow. To me I feel that you are trying to prove that prayer attributes to this. And in the same sentence you also end with it is a cry to God to intervene in a favorable way in a seemingly hopeless situation. So does the God that you refer to exist or not?
Morality is of the highest importance - but for us, not for God.
Albert Einstein
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 5:56:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You are correct, and my apologies for assuming as such. But you did say that the use of prayer, even today, is a plea for protection, a hope for a better tomorrow. To me I feel that you are trying to prove that prayer attributes to this. And in the same sentence you also end with it is a cry to God to intervene in a favorable way in a seemingly hopeless situation. So does the God that you refer to exist or not?

Prayer is all these things. It's a plea for protection and a hope for a better tomorrow. Prayers go answered and unanswered. It is not for me to determine whether someone's prayer was answered or unanswered. I can only make that judgement for myself. If an individual believes his, or her, prayer was answered, then, for the individual it was answered.

I believe God does and does not exist. I am both a theist and an atheist. In my world, this existent and nonexistent god answers and does not answer prayers.

I believe the contradiction arises as we pit one truth against another or say one truth is true and the other is false.
SevenDust
Posts: 50
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 7:48:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/21/2015 5:56:29 PM, s-anthony wrote:
You are correct, and my apologies for assuming as such. But you did say that the use of prayer, even today, is a plea for protection, a hope for a better tomorrow. To me I feel that you are trying to prove that prayer attributes to this. And in the same sentence you also end with it is a cry to God to intervene in a favorable way in a seemingly hopeless situation. So does the God that you refer to exist or not?

Prayer is all these things. It's a plea for protection and a hope for a better tomorrow. Prayers go answered and unanswered. It is not for me to determine whether someone's prayer was answered or unanswered. I can only make that judgement for myself. If an individual believes his, or her, prayer was answered, then, for the individual it was answered.

I believe God does and does not exist. I am both a theist and an atheist. In my world, this existent and nonexistent god answers and does not answer prayers.

I believe the contradiction arises as we pit one truth against another or say one truth is true and the other is false.

Anthony,
What you just said is exactly what I was trying to get out on my rebuttal to your original OP. Prayers that are answered and unanswered is saying that prayer, in essence, is subjective regardless of how semantics are used. I do agree that, if according to the individual prayer seems to work, than by all means continue to do so.

I myself believe, and dis-believe in a God. IMHO I feel that there is something beyond this life, but to say that it is what is portrayed in the Bible is either built on fear, or a lack of an open mind. You hit the nail on the head when you said that I believe the contradiction arises as we pit one truth against another or say one truth is true and the other is false. If we can all agree without being disagreeable, than I feel that this world would be a different place to live in, especially when it comes to religion. But I also believe that when the hearts of man changes, the world will also.
Morality is of the highest importance - but for us, not for God.
Albert Einstein
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/21/2015 9:18:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Anthony,
What you just said is exactly what I was trying to get out on my rebuttal to your original OP. Prayers that are answered and unanswered is saying that prayer, in essence, is subjective regardless of how semantics are used. I do agree that, if according to the individual prayer seems to work, than by all means continue to do so.

This may sound a little weird and to most people it does but I believe truth is not merely subjective but is also objective. In other words, in that truth is relative or partial to a subject, it is subjective. However, I believe reality transcends the subject; the subject does not only exist alone but is part of a universal whole. As the subject stands alone, it is incomplete and therefore partial; but, as the subject becomes one through its ability to form a relationship to the world around it, reality becomes to the subject more complete, to a greater extent less partial and more absolute. The truth will always be incomplete yet whole, incomplete in that it represents distinct phenomena yet whole in that such phenomena relate to the greater world around it. So, I see prayer as being subjective in that it relates to a specific individual or a specific group but objective in that our wishes, desires, and dreams may transcend us as individuals and, to some degree, us as a collective.

I myself believe, and dis-believe in a God. IMHO I feel that there is something beyond this life, but to say that it is what is portrayed in the Bible is either built on fear, or a lack of an open mind. You hit the nail on the head when you said that I believe the contradiction arises as we pit one truth against another or say one truth is true and the other is false. If we can all agree without being disagreeable, than I feel that this world would be a different place to live in, especially when it comes to religion. But I also believe that when the hearts of man changes, the world will also.

As long as we have our individual identities, I believe disagreement will persist.

For me, the goal is not complete agreement with anybody but the ability to appreciate and respect one another's differences. In other words, we can disagree without being disagreeable.