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Tales of interest

tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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7/21/2010 9:13:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Heres an interesting conundrum.

Dunno if anyone posted this question yet, but here it goes.

Is there free will in Heaven?

If there is, then clearly God is capable of creating a perfect world free of sin and suffering and evil, where his minions have free will and are not robots. This not only negates any responses to solve the problem of evil but also decimates the "God didn't want to create mindless robots" argument too.

If there isnt, then people are just mindless robots in heaven. Which begs the question why he didnt create mindless robots in the Garden of Eden to begin with.
Valtarov
Posts: 136
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7/21/2010 10:02:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 9:13:45 AM, tkubok wrote:
Heres an interesting conundrum.

Dunno if anyone posted this question yet, but here it goes.

Is there free will in Heaven?

If there is, then clearly God is capable of creating a perfect world free of sin and suffering and evil, where his minions have free will and are not robots. This not only negates any responses to solve the problem of evil but also decimates the "God didn't want to create mindless robots" argument too.

If there isnt, then people are just mindless robots in heaven. Which begs the question why he didnt create mindless robots in the Garden of Eden to begin with.

Here's your answer: choice is a logarithmic curve. Previous choices influence the outcome of future choices. If I choose to do drugs twenty times, whilst I can still not choose to do drugs the 21st time I am tempted, the probability of me choosing ~drugs is very small indeed. All their lives, people are making choices that will either foster the growth of heaven or hell inside themselves. Eventually, while there must be a point where the practical choice where no choice to the contrary is practical. People in heaven are not robots; rather, by their choices over their lifetimes (and perhaps beyond), they have become creatures that are intrinsically good (and, under the Christian perspective, thusly intrinsically free as well).

Yes, I know, it makes my brain hurt too. But the truth is rarely simple.
"We are half-hearted creatures,
fooling about with drink and sex and
ambition when infinite joy is offered us,
like an ignorant child who wants to go on
making mud pies in a slum because he
cannot imagine what is meant by the offer
of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily
pleased."—C.S. Lewis, "The Weight of Glory"
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/21/2010 10:04:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
So God couldn't start them out higher on the curve?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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7/21/2010 10:54:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 10:02:05 AM, Valtarov wrote:
Here's your answer: choice is a logarithmic curve. Previous choices influence the outcome of future choices. If I choose to do drugs twenty times, whilst I can still not choose to do drugs the 21st time I am tempted, the probability of me choosing ~drugs is very small indeed. All their lives, people are making choices that will either foster the growth of heaven or hell inside themselves. Eventually, while there must be a point where the practical choice where no choice to the contrary is practical. People in heaven are not robots; rather, by their choices over their lifetimes (and perhaps beyond), they have become creatures that are intrinsically good (and, under the Christian perspective, thusly intrinsically free as well).

Yes, I know, it makes my brain hurt too. But the truth is rarely simple.

But this is problem with your answer.

First off, what of Children in heaven? Clearly the young ones havent had enough time to make enough choices, or even understand the difference between Good and Evil, Good choices vs bad choices. I dunno, maybe in your belief system, children have no souls, but im willing to guess that Children get a free pass into heaven, and dont end up in hell. And if they do end up in Heaven, then clearly it was possible for God to send people to heaven without this learning curve.

Secondly, is God aware of this? If he is, then clearly, it was unfair of God to give the most important choice in Adam and Eves entire life, when he hadnt given them the "Curve" To begin with. its a self-refuting argument.

Thirdly, God couldnt have made humans who were intrinsically Good to begin with? What is the problem with that?

Fourthly, what about Adam and Eve? Where they intrinsically Good, or Intrinsically Evil, and did God know about their intrinsic nature?

Fifthly, the entire christian doctrine is based around forgiveness. That kinda makes the choice curve thing useless, doesnt it?
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/21/2010 11:06:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 9:13:45 AM, tkubok wrote:
Heres an interesting conundrum.

Dunno if anyone posted this question yet, but here it goes.

Is there free will in Heaven?

If there is, then clearly God is capable of creating a perfect world free of sin and suffering and evil, where his minions have free will and are not robots. This not only negates any responses to solve the problem of evil but also decimates the "God didn't want to create mindless robots" argument too.

If there isnt, then people are just mindless robots in heaven. Which begs the question why he didnt create mindless robots in the Garden of Eden to begin with.:

I've pondered the same thing. The ecumenical answer is that, there is freewill in heaven too, in which 2/3 of the angels allegedly rebelled. The critical difference is they are in the direct presence of God and live in complete peace, whereas humans have to it so much harder, which is why the bible says that humans are higher than the angels.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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7/21/2010 5:26:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 11:06:29 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I've pondered the same thing. The ecumenical answer is that, there is freewill in heaven too, in which 2/3 of the angels allegedly rebelled. The critical difference is they are in the direct presence of God and live in complete peace, whereas humans have to it so much harder, which is why the bible says that humans are higher than the angels.

But ive also heard Christians say that, for example, if your mother went to heaven but you went to hell, your mother woud not feel sad or deppressed about you because she would be in heaven and all such negative feelings do not exist in heaven. Which sort of begs the question of who the hell are you, when you go to heaven? If you are incapable of specific emotions now that you werent before, clearly youre a different person, much like the person who has a brain injury and can no longer feel empathy, is a different person from before the accident.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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7/21/2010 6:18:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 10:54:54 AM, tkubok wrote:
First off, what of Children in heaven?

Insert Catholic doctrine of layers of heaven and the fall of angels.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/22/2010 4:01:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 9:13:45 AM, tkubok wrote:
Heres an interesting conundrum.

Dunno if anyone posted this question yet, but here it goes.

Is there free will in Heaven?

If there is, then clearly God is capable of creating a perfect world free of sin and suffering and evil, where his minions have free will and are not robots. This not only negates any responses to solve the problem of evil but also decimates the "God didn't want to create mindless robots" argument too.

If there isnt, then people are just mindless robots in heaven. Which begs the question why he didnt create mindless robots in the Garden of Eden to begin with.

No, but the more I die to my natural (evil) desires in this life, the more I will have in the next life; SO my free-will in this life determines the next:

Luke 9:48
Then he said to them, "Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For he who is least among you all—he is the greatest."
The Cross.. the Cross.
Floid
Posts: 751
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7/22/2010 5:02:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
No, but the more I die to my natural (evil) desires in this life, the more I will have in the next life; SO my free-will in this life determines the next

Which completely fails to answer the question posed by the original poster. Is there free will in heaven or are you going to become a mindless servant of God once there?
Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
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7/22/2010 5:04:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/21/2010 5:43:13 PM, sal wrote:
The real question is why he put people on earth at all.

People were not and are not the creation of god, god is the creation of people and the sooner people come to terms with that the sooner the world can move on.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/22/2010 7:08:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
But ive also heard Christians say that, for example, if your mother went to heaven but you went to hell, your mother woud not feel sad or deppressed about you because she would be in heaven and all such negative feelings do not exist in heaven.:

Yeah, I've heard that too. But first of all, that's totally unscriptural, secondly, they're just making sh*t up. They have no way of knowing that.

Which sort of begs the question of who the hell are you, when you go to heaven? If you are incapable of specific emotions now that you werent before, clearly youre a different person, much like the person who has a brain injury and can no longer feel empathy, is a different person from before the accident.:

These are useless questions because we have no idea what happens when we die, let alone intimate details about heaven or hell. Even the bible says that there is gulf affixed between the living world and heavenly realm that no one can cross unless you die. So it's pointless speculation on the part of Christians. They should read their own bible more often.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/22/2010 7:13:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
the more I die to my natural (evil) desires in this life, the more I will have in the next life; SO my free-will in this life determines the next:

Which begs the question why God imparted those very desires in you in the first place. Or vastly more important, if the heavenly realm is his chief concern, why not forgo the physical world altogether.

The bible doesn't even attempt to ask those questions.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/22/2010 7:16:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 7:08:46 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
But ive also heard Christians say that, for example, if your mother went to heaven but you went to hell, your mother woud not feel sad or deppressed about you because she would be in heaven and all such negative feelings do not exist in heaven.:

Yeah, I've heard that too. But first of all, that's totally unscriptural, secondly, they're just making sh*t up. They have no way of knowing that.

Which sort of begs the question of who the hell are you, when you go to heaven? If you are incapable of specific emotions now that you werent before, clearly youre a different person, much like the person who has a brain injury and can no longer feel empathy, is a different person from before the accident.:

: These are useless questions because we have no idea what happens when we die, let alone intimate details about heaven or hell. Even the bible says that there is gulf affixed between the living world and heavenly realm that no one can cross unless you die. So it's pointless speculation on the part of Christians. They should read their own bible more often.


That
could be posted to about 80% of the threads in this category. Although i am unsure of why it is pointless exclusively for Christians.
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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7/22/2010 7:24:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 5:04:23 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
At 7/21/2010 5:43:13 PM, sal wrote:
The real question is why he put people on earth at all.

People were not and are not the creation of god, god is the creation of people and the sooner people come to terms with that the sooner the world can move on.

You can't prove that.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/22/2010 7:28:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
That could be posted to about 80% of the threads in this category. Although i am unsure of why it is pointless exclusively for Christians.:

Most modern conceptions about heaven and hell, as expressed by the Original Poster, are Christian beliefs. It's not that the concept of heaven and hell is uniquely Christian, only the details expressed by the OP.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/22/2010 7:32:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 7:24:18 AM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 7/22/2010 5:04:23 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
At 7/21/2010 5:43:13 PM, sal wrote:
The real question is why he put people on earth at all.

People were not and are not the creation of god, god is the creation of people and the sooner people come to terms with that the sooner the world can move on.

You can't prove that.:

That's right, because you cannot prove the non-existence of a negative. God is neither verifiable nor falsifiable, which is why I'm an agnostic.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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7/22/2010 8:04:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think the bible says something about someone who went to heaven but then back to earth. I heard the same story from some random lady that turned a don't drink and drive lecture religious.

However both say those that have seen heaven are not allowed to tell anyone anything about heaven.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/22/2010 8:31:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 8:04:59 AM, lovelife wrote:
I think the bible says something about someone who went to heaven but then back to earth. I heard the same story from some random lady that turned a don't drink and drive lecture religious.

However both say those that have seen heaven are not allowed to tell anyone anything about heaven.:

I think you are thinking of the parable of the rich man. Lazarus had a bunch of a-hole brothers who lived it up while they were alive, but Lazarus was downtrodden and had lesions all over his body. His only comfort was gods licking his wounds. Anyway, Lazarus dies. Being the selfless person that he is, asks Abraham if he can warn his brothers of hell. Abraham responds that a great gulf is fixed between heaven and earth that no one can cross.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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7/22/2010 9:40:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 8:31:58 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 7/22/2010 8:04:59 AM, lovelife wrote:
I think the bible says something about someone who went to heaven but then back to earth. I heard the same story from some random lady that turned a don't drink and drive lecture religious.

However both say those that have seen heaven are not allowed to tell anyone anything about heaven.:

I think you are thinking of the parable of the rich man. Lazarus had a bunch of a-hole brothers who lived it up while they were alive, but Lazarus was downtrodden and had lesions all over his body. His only comfort was gods licking his wounds. Anyway, Lazarus dies. Being the selfless person that he is, asks Abraham if he can warn his brothers of hell. Abraham responds that a great gulf is fixed between heaven and earth that no one can cross.

Well, not exactly.

Abraham basically tells Lazarus, that he wont, because Lazarus' brothers have Moses to warn them of Hell, and thats the only warning they will receive.

Which is bull and unfair when you consider that Abraham constantly talked to God.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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7/22/2010 9:44:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 8:31:58 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 7/22/2010 8:04:59 AM, lovelife wrote:
I think the bible says something about someone who went to heaven but then back to earth. I heard the same story from some random lady that turned a don't drink and drive lecture religious.

However both say those that have seen heaven are not allowed to tell anyone anything about heaven.:

I think you are thinking of the parable of the rich man. Lazarus had a bunch of a-hole brothers who lived it up while they were alive, but Lazarus was downtrodden and had lesions all over his body. His only comfort was gods licking his wounds. Anyway, Lazarus dies. Being the selfless person that he is, asks Abraham if he can warn his brothers of hell. Abraham responds that a great gulf is fixed between heaven and earth that no one can cross.

I'm not sure what it ws. I know the lady that was talking said she didn't even believe her son but the next week in church they just happened to read a bible story just like that. I honestly don't remember reading whatever she's talking about, unless your right.

I thought the responce was something like "they wont listen to you, they have been told of Hell and still choose not to believe, it wouldn't make a difference anyway" or something like that.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/22/2010 10:27:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Well, not exactly.

Abraham basically tells Lazarus, that he wont, because Lazarus' brothers have Moses to warn them of Hell, and thats the only warning they will receive.:

The meat and potato's of what I was saying is that he's describing why heaven and earth are supposedly incompatible... A forbidden gulf allegedly separates them.

Which is bull and unfair when you consider that Abraham constantly talked to God.:

I won't argue that point.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/23/2010 2:57:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 5:02:11 AM, Floid wrote:
No, but the more I die to my natural (evil) desires in this life, the more I will have in the next life; SO my free-will in this life determines the next

Which completely fails to answer the question posed by the original poster. Is there free will in heaven or are you going to become a mindless servant of God once there?

It EXACTLY answers the question: this life is a test, a trial.. my actions and inactions (not retaliating to violence etc) in this life determine my status and knowledge, freedom etc in the next Life.
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/23/2010 3:05:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 7:13:11 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
the more I die to my natural (evil) desires in this life, the more I will have in the next life; SO my free-will in this life determines the next:

Which begs the question why God imparted those very desires in you in the first place. Or vastly more important, if the heavenly realm is his chief concern, why not forgo the physical world altogether.

The bible doesn't even attempt to ask those questions.

It sure does; the Garden of Eden (which we are discussing elsewhere) deals exactly with this very problem.

Think of it like this: (a mathmatical substitute for a spiritual truth)

Adam and Eve knew ONLY that 2+2=4..

The 'fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil' allowed them to perceive (wrongly) that it doesn't HAVE to be 4.. it can be anything! expand your mind dude! WHATEVER!!!

Only.. they lost the capacity to see that the answer IS 4.

Jesus Christ is born into the world; He has the right answer! He has the spirit of God!

So through Him we may enter BACK into real truth and real relationship with God.. BUT we must spend a life time REJECTING all the wrong answers.

THEN God knows that you REALLY want Him.
The Cross.. the Cross.