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Free will defense (desire & ability)

Illegalcombatant
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3/24/2015 2:33:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
God = All powerful, all knowing, morally good, wise, taking an interest in human affairs.

The more and more I think about how free will is used as a defense/theodicy the more and more I see problems with it, to the point it becomes untenable.

So here is another.......

Say a child is raped, if God exists then why didn't this God prevent such a horror ? well you see free will...........

Now I assume most people are like me in this regard, the very thought of such a desire (sex & children) can hardly be imagined if at all be imagined, the very attempt at such a thought throws up disgust (strong emotion) road blocks.

But here is the thing, our disgust on such matters is not chosen, we can't take credit for having such a disgust, and as such as I understand it, such people who go in the opposite direction having strong sexual desire for children didn't choose to have such a desire either.

So, in that regard where is the free will concerning desire ? I don't see any.

If God exists God apparently has no problem for people (even most) having a strong disgust emotion (not of their choosing) to such a thing and thus are highly unlikely to do such a thing

BUT never the less allows a small percentage to go in the other direction where they have such strong sexual desire not of their choosing and for some also the ability to act on that desire hence the existence of child rape.

What I am getting at if God has no problem with people having the strong disgust of child rape then I don't think God would have a problem with everyone having such a strong disgust and in such a world child rape would not exist or at least be extremely minimal.

So why such selectivity of non chosen desire ? Cause God creates or arranges such a state of affairs ? logical possible ok I will give you that, plausible ? nah.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Excalibur
Posts: 170
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3/24/2015 3:17:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 2:33:16 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
God = All powerful, all knowing, morally good, wise, taking an interest in human affairs.

The more and more I think about how free will is used as a defense/theodicy the more and more I see problems with it, to the point it becomes untenable.

So here is another.......

Say a child is raped, if God exists then why didn't this God prevent such a horror ? well you see free will...........

Would you feel better had God never created humanity to begin with based on the notion that some men would choose to rape little girls? Actually, you wouldn't feel anything had God followed through with that. You would have never known was love is, what your favorite food tasted like, what it means to spend time with those you love, how it felt when you got your first kiss, how it felt the first time you saw your own child takes it first step. All the pain and joy that made you who you are today would never have happened. Your mom and dad would have never met, had you and instilled in you that morals that hold you to the Against Child Abuse stance most of us with a good conscience cling to. He also took into account the fact that you and many others would turn against Him for it, and yet He did it anyways. He did it anyways because He loves unconditionally, at least while you're alive that is. Once dead, you no longer have options. You can't rape, murder, steal etc etc when you're dead, because you cannot choose. You can't choose to accept God or reject Him. That choice was already made. That choice was your free-will.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/24/2015 3:41:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 3:17:22 AM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:33:16 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
God = All powerful, all knowing, morally good, wise, taking an interest in human affairs.

The more and more I think about how free will is used as a defense/theodicy the more and more I see problems with it, to the point it becomes untenable.

So here is another.......

Say a child is raped, if God exists then why didn't this God prevent such a horror ? well you see free will...........

Would you feel better had God never created humanity to begin with based on the notion that some men would choose to rape little girls? Actually, you wouldn't feel anything had God followed through with that. You would have never known was love is, what your favorite food tasted like, what it means to spend time with those you love, how it felt when you got your first kiss, how it felt the first time you saw your own child takes it first step. All the pain and joy that made you who you are today would never have happened. Your mom and dad would have never met, had you and instilled in you that morals that hold you to the Against Child Abuse stance most of us with a good conscience cling to. He also took into account the fact that you and many others would turn against Him for it, and yet He did it anyways. He did it anyways because He loves unconditionally, at least while you're alive that is. Once dead, you no longer have options. You can't rape, murder, steal etc etc when you're dead, because you cannot choose. You can't choose to accept God or reject Him. That choice was already made. That choice was your free-will.

I don't think you actually address one of the central points I raised.

Recall I pointed out that in order to make this God belief work you have to accept God is being selective with strong sexual desire for and against children. And the small minority that God that God allows to have such strong sexual desire of children has also given the power to actualize that desire (the free will bit) hence the existence of child rape.

Would you actually like to address that specific point ? Should we accept that we live in such a world of such a God operating in such a way ? is it reasonable ? is it plausible ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
frbnsn
Posts: 353
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3/24/2015 3:43:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 2:33:16 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
God = All powerful, all knowing, morally good, wise, taking an interest in human affairs.

The more and more I think about how free will is used as a defense/theodicy the more and more I see problems with it, to the point it becomes untenable.

So here is another.......

Say a child is raped, if God exists then why didn't this God prevent such a horror ? well you see free will...........

Now I assume most people are like me in this regard, the very thought of such a desire (sex & children) can hardly be imagined if at all be imagined, the very attempt at such a thought throws up disgust (strong emotion) road blocks.

But here is the thing, our disgust on such matters is not chosen, we can't take credit for having such a disgust, and as such as I understand it, such people who go in the opposite direction having strong sexual desire for children didn't choose to have such a desire either.

So, in that regard where is the free will concerning desire ? I don't see any.

If God exists God apparently has no problem for people (even most) having a strong disgust emotion (not of their choosing) to such a thing and thus are highly unlikely to do such a thing

BUT never the less allows a small percentage to go in the other direction where they have such strong sexual desire not of their choosing and for some also the ability to act on that desire hence the existence of child rape.

What I am getting at if God has no problem with people having the strong disgust of child rape then I don't think God would have a problem with everyone having such a strong disgust and in such a world child rape would not exist or at least be extremely minimal.

So why such selectivity of non chosen desire ? Cause God creates or arranges such a state of affairs ? logical possible ok I will give you that, plausible ? nah.

You are right, raping a child is disgusting.

But why doesn't God prevent?
According to me, as a muslim, God wants us to live in good and also bad; He has given man reason, conscious and will.
So men must solve problems themselves in this world and punish guilty persons.

I am sure, after this life, bad humen would be punished in addition to that in this world, by God.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/24/2015 3:54:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 3:43:49 AM, frbnsn wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:33:16 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
God = All powerful, all knowing, morally good, wise, taking an interest in human affairs.

The more and more I think about how free will is used as a defense/theodicy the more and more I see problems with it, to the point it becomes untenable.

So here is another.......

Say a child is raped, if God exists then why didn't this God prevent such a horror ? well you see free will...........

Now I assume most people are like me in this regard, the very thought of such a desire (sex & children) can hardly be imagined if at all be imagined, the very attempt at such a thought throws up disgust (strong emotion) road blocks.

But here is the thing, our disgust on such matters is not chosen, we can't take credit for having such a disgust, and as such as I understand it, such people who go in the opposite direction having strong sexual desire for children didn't choose to have such a desire either.

So, in that regard where is the free will concerning desire ? I don't see any.

If God exists God apparently has no problem for people (even most) having a strong disgust emotion (not of their choosing) to such a thing and thus are highly unlikely to do such a thing

BUT never the less allows a small percentage to go in the other direction where they have such strong sexual desire not of their choosing and for some also the ability to act on that desire hence the existence of child rape.

What I am getting at if God has no problem with people having the strong disgust of child rape then I don't think God would have a problem with everyone having such a strong disgust and in such a world child rape would not exist or at least be extremely minimal.

So why such selectivity of non chosen desire ? Cause God creates or arranges such a state of affairs ? logical possible ok I will give you that, plausible ? nah.

You are right, raping a child is disgusting.

But why doesn't God prevent?
According to me, as a muslim, God wants us to live in good and also bad; He has given man reason, conscious and will.
So men must solve problems themselves in this world and punish guilty persons.

I am sure, after this life, bad humen would be punished in addition to that in this world, by God.

Recall I pointed out that in order to make this God belief work you have to accept God is being selective with strong sexual desire for and against children. And the small minority that God that God allows to have such strong sexual desire of children has also given the power to actualize that desire (the free will bit) hence the existence of child rape.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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3/24/2015 4:13:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 2:33:16 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
God = All powerful, all knowing, morally good, wise, taking an interest in human affairs.

The more and more I think about how free will is used as a defense/theodicy the more and more I see problems with it, to the point it becomes untenable.

So here is another.......

Say a child is raped, if God exists then why didn't this God prevent such a horror ? well you see free will...........

Now I assume most people are like me in this regard, the very thought of such a desire (sex & children) can hardly be imagined if at all be imagined, the very attempt at such a thought throws up disgust (strong emotion) road blocks.

But here is the thing, our disgust on such matters is not chosen, we can't take credit for having such a disgust, and as such as I understand it, such people who go in the opposite direction having strong sexual desire for children didn't choose to have such a desire either.

So, in that regard where is the free will concerning desire ? I don't see any.

If God exists God apparently has no problem for people (even most) having a strong disgust emotion (not of their choosing) to such a thing and thus are highly unlikely to do such a thing

BUT never the less allows a small percentage to go in the other direction where they have such strong sexual desire not of their choosing and for some also the ability to act on that desire hence the existence of child rape.

What I am getting at if God has no problem with people having the strong disgust of child rape then I don't think God would have a problem with everyone having such a strong disgust and in such a world child rape would not exist or at least be extremely minimal.

So why such selectivity of non chosen desire ? Cause God creates or arranges such a state of affairs ? logical possible ok I will give you that, plausible ? nah.

If it is logically plausible, then it is plausible, simple as.

Free will is not a defence for anything, it is a responsibility for everything we think and do, and especially for learning to control what we think and do.
Excalibur
Posts: 170
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3/24/2015 4:13:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 3:41:47 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
I don't think you actually address one of the central points I raised.

Recall I pointed out that in order to make this God belief work you have to accept God is being selective with strong sexual desire for and against children. And the small minority that God that God allows to have such strong sexual desire of children has also given the power to actualize that desire (the free will bit) hence the existence of child rape.

Would you actually like to address that specific point ? Should we accept that we live in such a world of such a God operating in such a way ? is it reasonable ? is it plausible ?

a lot of things wrong with this point. Three in particular:

1. We know that God is against child rape, as Christ states:

Matthew 18:6 "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

2. Your argument tries to paint God as some sleeping-on-the-job police officer, problem with that is: When did God ever state that He would always be there, watching in the shadows and dishing out punishment to those who deserve it, as though He were the Batman of the universe? For your argument to be debatable, you'd have to point out where He states that and show how He's not doing it.

3. You're trying to compare sin. God sees all sin as the same. Why doesn't God step in and smite you or anyone else anytime you tell a lie, drink, smoke or do anything that is unrighteous in His sight? What makes you any better than the man with the mental illness in the eyes of the one who created you both? People die all the time just trying to cross the street, should God just step in and wipe out anyone trying to start their car because the risk is there?

"James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

4. Lets take God out of the equation. Is it still morally wrong to rape a child if it were just you and a little girl left alone on the earth? Whose to say it is unmoral? If you're a child rapist and see nothing wrong with it, and teach the little girl that rape is acceptable, who can say it is unmoral? Your argument to pin down God as being selective is more of an atheistic view point. As an atheist, you should in fact be upset that God could, at anytime, doll out justice based on His code of ethics, that, as an atheist, don't really exist.

The Bible is a guide to those who choose to believe. Directions, if you will, on how to live a life pleasing to Him. It is not an Oath given by God that promises to do anything. Despite what you, I or anyone else chooses to do, God is still God. Your disbelief in that changes nothing.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,933
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3/24/2015 4:15:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 2:33:16 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
God = All powerful, all knowing, morally good, wise, taking an interest in human affairs.

The more and more I think about how free will is used as a defense/theodicy the more and more I see problems with it, to the point it becomes untenable.

So here is another.......

Say a child is raped, if God exists then why didn't this God prevent such a horror ? well you see free will...........

Now I assume most people are like me in this regard, the very thought of such a desire (sex & children) can hardly be imagined if at all be imagined, the very attempt at such a thought throws up disgust (strong emotion) road blocks.

But here is the thing, our disgust on such matters is not chosen, we can't take credit for having such a disgust, and as such as I understand it, such people who go in the opposite direction having strong sexual desire for children didn't choose to have such a desire either.

So, in that regard where is the free will concerning desire ? I don't see any.

If God exists God apparently has no problem for people (even most) having a strong disgust emotion (not of their choosing) to such a thing and thus are highly unlikely to do such a thing

BUT never the less allows a small percentage to go in the other direction where they have such strong sexual desire not of their choosing and for some also the ability to act on that desire hence the existence of child rape.

What I am getting at if God has no problem with people having the strong disgust of child rape then I don't think God would have a problem with everyone having such a strong disgust and in such a world child rape would not exist or at least be extremely minimal.

So why such selectivity of non chosen desire ? Cause God creates or arranges such a state of affairs ? logical possible ok I will give you that, plausible ? nah.

Once you understand that the supreme personality of Godhead to have evolved within the living universal body, is the "SON OF MAN" the MOST HIGH to have evolved within the creation and that he is a multi-celled androgynous fourth dimensional being who descends and ascends through time, and he knows everything that you have done and will do in the future according to your own free will, because it was all done in his past.

He is the light and the life=personality within the Logos before the creation of this generation of the universe. The "LIGHT OF MAN" all the wisdom, knowledge and insight, that was gained from the body of mankind in which he had developed before he descended to the very beginning of Space and time.

To change anything in his past, is to change who He has become.

So now my friend, come soar with me
To the outer limits of reality
This universe, though wide it seems
Is but the shadow of our dreams
We are nought but knowledge in these tents
Refined through pain and punishment
We're the hive of man and neath His rod
We are one, we're the Son of God
The past, the present, the future is He
He was, He is, and He will be
And heaven is but a point in time
To where the spirit in man must climb
Eventually when He's there at last
And stands and gazes on His past
And takes the throne prepared in heaven
Then all His past will be forgiven.
I am who I am, the die is cast
For I was created by my past
And we who we are this very day
Determines His future in every way
If my past were changed, then who would I be?
One thing is certain, I wouldn't be me.........By Gentorev.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/24/2015 4:24:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 4:13:52 AM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/24/2015 3:41:47 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
I don't think you actually address one of the central points I raised.

Recall I pointed out that in order to make this God belief work you have to accept God is being selective with strong sexual desire for and against children. And the small minority that God that God allows to have such strong sexual desire of children has also given the power to actualize that desire (the free will bit) hence the existence of child rape.

Would you actually like to address that specific point ? Should we accept that we live in such a world of such a God operating in such a way ? is it reasonable ? is it plausible ?

a lot of things wrong with this point. Three in particular:

1. We know that God is against child rape, as Christ states:

Matthew 18:6 "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

2. Your argument tries to paint God as some sleeping-on-the-job police officer, problem with that is: When did God ever state that He would always be there, watching in the shadows and dishing out punishment to those who deserve it, as though He were the Batman of the universe? For your argument to be debatable, you'd have to point out where He states that and show how He's not doing it.

3. You're trying to compare sin. God sees all sin as the same. Why doesn't God step in and smite you or anyone else anytime you tell a lie, drink, smoke or do anything that is unrighteous in His sight? What makes you any better than the man with the mental illness in the eyes of the one who created you both? People die all the time just trying to cross the street, should God just step in and wipe out anyone trying to start their car because the risk is there?

"James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

4. Lets take God out of the equation. Is it still morally wrong to rape a child if it were just you and a little girl left alone on the earth? Whose to say it is unmoral? If you're a child rapist and see nothing wrong with it, and teach the little girl that rape is acceptable, who can say it is unmoral? Your argument to pin down God as being selective is more of an atheistic view point. As an atheist, you should in fact be upset that God could, at anytime, doll out justice based on His code of ethics, that, as an atheist, don't really exist.

The Bible is a guide to those who choose to believe. Directions, if you will, on how to live a life pleasing to Him. It is not an Oath given by God that promises to do anything. Despite what you, I or anyone else chooses to do, God is still God. Your disbelief in that changes nothing.

How is it possible for me to bring up a major point, you ignore it, then I point it out.......THEN YOU IGNORE IT AGAIN !!!

"Recall I pointed out that in order to make this God belief work you have to accept God is being selective with strong sexual desire for and against children. And the small minority that God that God allows to have such strong sexual desire of children has also given the power to actualize that desire (the free will bit) hence the existence of child rape."

Do me a favour. Don't just ASSUME you think you know the argument or point I am getting at, just because you hear God & child rape and then assume oh it's another typical logical problem of evil argument (it isn't)

Put that assumption away and actually read what I said THEN respond.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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3/24/2015 4:27:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Does it even make sense these days to post a theological account of the world before having done diligent inquiry on a scientific account?

How many times must science debunk theological explanations of the world before theologians realise that they don't actually understand the world? That their scriptures are pigherd-ignorant about the world, and that the real job of theology is to catch up?
frbnsn
Posts: 353
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3/24/2015 4:29:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 3:54:02 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 3/24/2015 3:43:49 AM, frbnsn wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:33:16 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
God = All powerful, all knowing, morally good, wise, taking an interest in human affairs.

The more and more I think about how free will is used as a defense/theodicy the more and more I see problems with it, to the point it becomes untenable.

So here is another.......

Say a child is raped, if God exists then why didn't this God prevent such a horror ? well you see free will...........

Now I assume most people are like me in this regard, the very thought of such a desire (sex & children) can hardly be imagined if at all be imagined, the very attempt at such a thought throws up disgust (strong emotion) road blocks.

But here is the thing, our disgust on such matters is not chosen, we can't take credit for having such a disgust, and as such as I understand it, such people who go in the opposite direction having strong sexual desire for children didn't choose to have such a desire either.

So, in that regard where is the free will concerning desire ? I don't see any.

If God exists God apparently has no problem for people (even most) having a strong disgust emotion (not of their choosing) to such a thing and thus are highly unlikely to do such a thing

BUT never the less allows a small percentage to go in the other direction where they have such strong sexual desire not of their choosing and for some also the ability to act on that desire hence the existence of child rape.

What I am getting at if God has no problem with people having the strong disgust of child rape then I don't think God would have a problem with everyone having such a strong disgust and in such a world child rape would not exist or at least be extremely minimal.

So why such selectivity of non chosen desire ? Cause God creates or arranges such a state of affairs ? logical possible ok I will give you that, plausible ? nah.

You are right, raping a child is disgusting.

But why doesn't God prevent?
According to me, as a muslim, God wants us to live in good and also bad; He has given man reason, conscious and will.
So men must solve problems themselves in this world and punish guilty persons.

I am sure, after this life, bad humen would be punished in addition to that in this world, by God.

Recall I pointed out that in order to make this God belief work you have to accept God is being selective with strong sexual desire for and against children. And the small minority that God that God allows to have such strong sexual desire of children has also given the power to actualize that desire (the free will bit) hence the existence of child rape.

God has given man the ability and freedom to do good and bad affairs.
But also God has showed some supporting ways to avoiding bad (here, for example, getting marrying may help to diminish of sexual desire)
Excalibur
Posts: 170
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3/24/2015 4:29:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 4:24:45 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
How is it possible for me to bring up a major point, you ignore it, then I point it out.......THEN YOU IGNORE IT AGAIN !!!

"Recall I pointed out that in order to make this God belief work you have to accept God is being selective with strong sexual desire for and against children. And the small minority that God that God allows to have such strong sexual desire of children has also given the power to actualize that desire (the free will bit) hence the existence of child rape."

Do me a favour. Don't just ASSUME you think you know the argument or point I am getting at, just because you hear God & child rape and then assume oh it's another typical logical problem of evil argument (it isn't)

Put that assumption away and actually read what I said THEN respond.

It's obvious you read nothing I wrote, as I just pointed out that you cannot accept that view point, as it is infeasible. Just because you BELIEVE that God works as such does not make it so. I showed you 4 reasons as to why, with three in particular, one of those proving that it is you who is selective. I'll post it again, as I know you completely ignored it.

a lot of things wrong with this point. Three in particular:

1. We know that God is against child rape, as Christ states:

Matthew 18:6 "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

2. Your argument tries to paint God as some sleeping-on-the-job police officer, problem with that is: When did God ever state that He would always be there, watching in the shadows and dishing out punishment to those who deserve it, as though He were the Batman of the universe? For your argument to be debatable, you'd have to point out where He states that and show how He's not doing it.

3. You're trying to compare sin. God sees all sin as the same. Why doesn't God step in and smite you or anyone else anytime you tell a lie, drink, smoke or do anything that is unrighteous in His sight? What makes you any better than the man with the mental illness in the eyes of the one who created you both? People die all the time just trying to cross the street, should God just step in and wipe out anyone trying to start their car because the risk is there?

"James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

4. Lets take God out of the equation. Is it still morally wrong to rape a child if it were just you and a little girl left alone on the earth? Whose to say it is unmoral? If you're a child rapist and see nothing wrong with it, and teach the little girl that rape is acceptable, who can say it is unmoral? Your argument to pin down God as being selective is more of an atheistic view point. As an atheist, you should in fact be upset that God could, at anytime, doll out justice based on His code of ethics, that, as an atheist, don't really exist.

The Bible is a guide to those who choose to believe. Directions, if you will, on how to live a life pleasing to Him. It is not an Oath given by God that promises to do anything. Despite what you, I or anyone else chooses to do, God is still God. Your disbelief in that changes nothing.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/24/2015 4:31:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 4:13:26 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:33:16 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
God = All powerful, all knowing, morally good, wise, taking an interest in human affairs.

The more and more I think about how free will is used as a defense/theodicy the more and more I see problems with it, to the point it becomes untenable.

So here is another.......

Say a child is raped, if God exists then why didn't this God prevent such a horror ? well you see free will...........

Now I assume most people are like me in this regard, the very thought of such a desire (sex & children) can hardly be imagined if at all be imagined, the very attempt at such a thought throws up disgust (strong emotion) road blocks.

But here is the thing, our disgust on such matters is not chosen, we can't take credit for having such a disgust, and as such as I understand it, such people who go in the opposite direction having strong sexual desire for children didn't choose to have such a desire either.

So, in that regard where is the free will concerning desire ? I don't see any.

If God exists God apparently has no problem for people (even most) having a strong disgust emotion (not of their choosing) to such a thing and thus are highly unlikely to do such a thing

BUT never the less allows a small percentage to go in the other direction where they have such strong sexual desire not of their choosing and for some also the ability to act on that desire hence the existence of child rape.

What I am getting at if God has no problem with people having the strong disgust of child rape then I don't think God would have a problem with everyone having such a strong disgust and in such a world child rape would not exist or at least be extremely minimal.

So why such selectivity of non chosen desire ? Cause God creates or arranges such a state of affairs ? logical possible ok I will give you that, plausible ? nah.

If it is logically plausible, then it is plausible, simple as.

Logically plausible ? your a funny guy.

All plausibilities are logically possible, but not all logical possibles are plausible.


Free will is not a defense for anything, it is a responsibility for everything we think and do, and especially for learning to control what we think and do.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
MadCornishBiker
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3/24/2015 4:31:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 4:27:53 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
Does it even make sense these days to post a theological account of the world before having done diligent inquiry on a scientific account?

How many times must science debunk theological explanations of the world before theologians realise that they don't actually understand the world? That their scriptures are pigherd-ignorant about the world, and that the real job of theology is to catch up?

If science managed to debunk the bible's account once it would be a start. It hasn't done yet.

Nor will it ever.
MadCornishBiker
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3/24/2015 4:42:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 4:31:50 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 3/24/2015 4:13:26 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:33:16 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
God = All powerful, all knowing, morally good, wise, taking an interest in human affairs.

The more and more I think about how free will is used as a defense/theodicy the more and more I see problems with it, to the point it becomes untenable.

So here is another.......

Say a child is raped, if God exists then why didn't this God prevent such a horror ? well you see free will...........

Now I assume most people are like me in this regard, the very thought of such a desire (sex & children) can hardly be imagined if at all be imagined, the very attempt at such a thought throws up disgust (strong emotion) road blocks.

But here is the thing, our disgust on such matters is not chosen, we can't take credit for having such a disgust, and as such as I understand it, such people who go in the opposite direction having strong sexual desire for children didn't choose to have such a desire either.

So, in that regard where is the free will concerning desire ? I don't see any.

If God exists God apparently has no problem for people (even most) having a strong disgust emotion (not of their choosing) to such a thing and thus are highly unlikely to do such a thing

BUT never the less allows a small percentage to go in the other direction where they have such strong sexual desire not of their choosing and for some also the ability to act on that desire hence the existence of child rape.

What I am getting at if God has no problem with people having the strong disgust of child rape then I don't think God would have a problem with everyone having such a strong disgust and in such a world child rape would not exist or at least be extremely minimal.

So why such selectivity of non chosen desire ? Cause God creates or arranges such a state of affairs ? logical possible ok I will give you that, plausible ? nah.

If it is logically plausible, then it is plausible, simple as.

Logically plausible ? your a funny guy.

All plausibilities are logically possible, but not all logical possibles are plausible.


True, but what God asks of us is possible, and will in fact be the way all who choose to survive Armageddon will learn to live.

Free will is still going to be in existence, but we will learn how to use it to the benefit of all, not just of ourselves, and only those who want to will be there to learn.

The whole, of humanity is indeed far greater than the sum of it's individual parts.


Free will is not a defense for anything, it is a responsibility for everything we think and do, and especially for learning to control what we think and do.
RuvDraba
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3/24/2015 4:42:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 4:31:59 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
If science managed to debunk the bible's account once it would be a start. It hasn't done yet.

What would you consider acceptable evidence that a six-day Creation did not occur?

Or the Israelite exodus from Egypt?

Or that there were monotheistic religions before Judaism?

Or that Jesus was not the first divinity to turn water into wine, or reported to walk on water?

I don't believe any evidence would be acceptable to you, MCB. You're already disinterested in science, except as it might support your faith. That being so, your comment:

Nor will it ever.

...is trivially true, but not because of the quality of evidence.
Illegalcombatant
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3/24/2015 4:47:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 4:29:28 AM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/24/2015 4:24:45 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
How is it possible for me to bring up a major point, you ignore it, then I point it out.......THEN YOU IGNORE IT AGAIN !!!

"Recall I pointed out that in order to make this God belief work you have to accept God is being selective with strong sexual desire for and against children. And the small minority that God that God allows to have such strong sexual desire of children has also given the power to actualize that desire (the free will bit) hence the existence of child rape."

Do me a favour. Don't just ASSUME you think you know the argument or point I am getting at, just because you hear God & child rape and then assume oh it's another typical logical problem of evil argument (it isn't)

Put that assumption away and actually read what I said THEN respond.

It's obvious you read nothing I wrote, as I just pointed out that you cannot accept that view point, as it is infeasible. Just because you BELIEVE that God works as such does not make it so. I showed you 4 reasons as to why, with three in particular, one of those proving that it is you who is selective. I'll post it again, as I know you completely ignored it.

a lot of things wrong with this point. Three in particular:

1. We know that God is against child rape, as Christ states:

Matthew 18:6 "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

2. Your argument tries to paint God as some sleeping-on-the-job police officer, problem with that is: When did God ever state that He would always be there, watching in the shadows and dishing out punishment to those who deserve it, as though He were the Batman of the universe? For your argument to be debatable, you'd have to point out where He states that and show how He's not doing it.

3. You're trying to compare sin. God sees all sin as the same. Why doesn't God step in and smite you or anyone else anytime you tell a lie, drink, smoke or do anything that is unrighteous in His sight? What makes you any better than the man with the mental illness in the eyes of the one who created you both? People die all the time just trying to cross the street, should God just step in and wipe out anyone trying to start their car because the risk is there?

"James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

4. Lets take God out of the equation. Is it still morally wrong to rape a child if it were just you and a little girl left alone on the earth? Whose to say it is unmoral? If you're a child rapist and see nothing wrong with it, and teach the little girl that rape is acceptable, who can say it is unmoral? Your argument to pin down God as being selective is more of an atheistic view point. As an atheist, you should in fact be upset that God could, at anytime, doll out justice based on His code of ethics, that, as an atheist, don't really exist.

The Bible is a guide to those who choose to believe. Directions, if you will, on how to live a life pleasing to Him. It is not an Oath given by God that promises to do anything. Despite what you, I or anyone else chooses to do, God is still God. Your disbelief in that changes nothing.

Why should I respond to a counter argument to an argument I didn't make in the first place. I will try another angle which might make things clearer to what I have in mind.

Firstly I think we both agree MOST people have such a strong disgust to even the thought of child rape. As such for those people (even if they have the ability to commit a child rape) it's certain or almost they will not.

But we also have a small minority on the other end of the spectrum who have a STRONG sexual desire of children. And get this neither group "choose" to have a disgust or such a strong desire of such things.

So assuming God exists you have to believe in some way he at least allows such a state of affairs. Why not just have EVERYONE with the same disgust ? Remember it's not like people are choosing anyway what disgust they have.

So among other things you have a God who allows a state of affairs of different desires, and not only that gives the ability to some of those with strong sexual desire for children to rape children. (even if they had such a strong desire they couldn't do harm without the ability to act on the at desire)

Call me skeptical that this is the world we live in with a God who is operating in such a manner.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Excalibur
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3/24/2015 5:04:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 4:47:07 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Why should I respond to a counter argument to an argument I didn't make in the first place. I will try another angle which might make things clearer to what I have in mind.

Firstly I think we both agree MOST people have such a strong disgust to even the thought of child rape. As such for those people (even if they have the ability to commit a child rape) it's certain or almost they will not.

But we also have a small minority on the other end of the spectrum who have a STRONG sexual desire of children. And get this neither group "choose" to have a disgust or such a strong desire of such things.

So assuming God exists you have to believe in some way he at least allows such a state of affairs. Why not just have EVERYONE with the same disgust ? Remember it's not like people are choosing anyway what disgust they have.

So among other things you have a God who allows a state of affairs of different desires, and not only that gives the ability to some of those with strong sexual desire for children to rape children. (even if they had such a strong desire they couldn't do harm without the ability to act on the at desire)

Call me skeptical that this is the world we live in with a God who is operating in such a manner.

You can't respond because

A. You have nothing.
B. Again, you did not read what I wrote.
C. You're bias in your position.

To try and make the claim that God is at fault for how a person feels or thinks is more absurd than the claim that it is God's fault for not intervening (when He never stated He would but that He is a REFUGE to the abused), as one is born with no desire for or against anything other than feeding, which is the basic fundamental to life. If the case were not so, we would all be born with that thought and have to come to reject it as we age. We can inherit certain things, but a moral is not one of them.
Illegalcombatant
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3/24/2015 5:21:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 5:04:58 AM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/24/2015 4:47:07 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Why should I respond to a counter argument to an argument I didn't make in the first place. I will try another angle which might make things clearer to what I have in mind.

Firstly I think we both agree MOST people have such a strong disgust to even the thought of child rape. As such for those people (even if they have the ability to commit a child rape) it's certain or almost they will not.

But we also have a small minority on the other end of the spectrum who have a STRONG sexual desire of children. And get this neither group "choose" to have a disgust or such a strong desire of such things.

So assuming God exists you have to believe in some way he at least allows such a state of affairs. Why not just have EVERYONE with the same disgust ? Remember it's not like people are choosing anyway what disgust they have.

So among other things you have a God who allows a state of affairs of different desires, and not only that gives the ability to some of those with strong sexual desire for children to rape children. (even if they had such a strong desire they couldn't do harm without the ability to act on the at desire)

Call me skeptical that this is the world we live in with a God who is operating in such a manner.

You can't respond because

A. You have nothing.
B. Again, you did not read what I wrote.
C. You're bias in your position.

To try and make the claim that God is at fault for how a person feels or thinks is more absurd than the claim that it is God's fault for not intervening (when He never stated He would but that He is a REFUGE to the abused), as one is born with no desire for or against anything other than feeding, which is the basic fundamental to life. If the case were not so, we would all be born with that thought and have to come to reject it as we age. We can inherit certain things, but a moral is not one of them.

Name one point I bought up that you disagree with.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Excalibur
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3/24/2015 5:27:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 5:21:40 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Name one point I bought up that you disagree with.

Seriously, are you purposely trying to dodge?

1. The more and more I think about how free will is used as a defense/theodicy the more and more I see problems with it, to the point it becomes untenable.

2. Say a child is raped, if God exists then why didn't this God prevent such a horror ?

3. But here is the thing, our disgust on such matters is not chosen, we can't take credit for having such a disgust.

4. If God exists God apparently has no problem for people (even most) having a strong disgust emotion (not of their choosing) to such a thing

5. What I am getting at if God has no problem with people having the strong disgust of child rape then I don't think God would have a problem with everyone having such a strong disgust

6. God creates or arranges such a state of affairs ? logical possible ok I will give you that, plausible ? nah.

All of which I have addressed, but not been replied to on.
Illegalcombatant
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3/24/2015 5:29:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 5:27:08 AM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/24/2015 5:21:40 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Name one point I bought up that you disagree with.

Seriously, are you purposely trying to dodge?

1. The more and more I think about how free will is used as a defense/theodicy the more and more I see problems with it, to the point it becomes untenable.

2. Say a child is raped, if God exists then why didn't this God prevent such a horror ?

3. But here is the thing, our disgust on such matters is not chosen, we can't take credit for having such a disgust.

4. If God exists God apparently has no problem for people (even most) having a strong disgust emotion (not of their choosing) to such a thing

5. What I am getting at if God has no problem with people having the strong disgust of child rape then I don't think God would have a problem with everyone having such a strong disgust

6. God creates or arranges such a state of affairs ? logical possible ok I will give you that, plausible ? nah.

All of which I have addressed, but not been replied to on.

So what point do you disagree with and why ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Gentorev
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3/24/2015 5:30:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 4:27:53 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
Does it even make sense these days to post a theological account of the world before having done diligent inquiry on a scientific account?

How many times must science debunk theological explanations of the world before theologians realise that they don't actually understand the world? That their scriptures are pigherd-ignorant about the world, and that the real job of theology is to catch up?

Our ancient ancestors expressed their belief in an eternal oscillating universe, that our scientist today are just beginning to come to terms with.

Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence." ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara or the cycle of manifestation, "The Great Day," which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by "Pralaya," a dark period, which to our finite minds seems as an eternity. "Manvantara," is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, "Pralaya," is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the generations of the universe.

The English word "Generation," is translated from the Hebrew "toledoth" which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as "births," or "descendants," such as "These are the generations of Adam," or "these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc. And the "Great Day" in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

A series of worlds following one upon the other,-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. Every universe from the first to the last, from the smallest to the greatest, which have evolved throughout the eons of eternity, still exist in their independent Space-Time positions within the eternal and boundless cosmos.

The New international Version, the Scofield Referrence Bible, and the Companion Bible, all note that the phase in Genesis 1: 2; The earth was formless and void (Having neither shape or mass) should be correctly translated, "The earth became without form and void." The Hebrew word "Hayah" translated "was," means "To become, occur, come to pass, Be." (Vines Complete Expository of Old and New Testament Words, 1985. "To Be.")

Another universe may have preceded ours, study finds. May 14th, 2006. Courtesy Penn State University and World Science staff.

Three physicists say they have done calculations suggesting that before the birth of our universe, which is expanding, there was an earlier universe that was shrinking.

The results stem from a theory that claims the fabric of space and time is made up of minuscule, indivisible bits, much as matter is.

Scientists believe our cosmos began in a sort of explosion called the Big Bang, when everything that exists---which had previously been packed into one infinitely dense point---burst outward.

The universe is still expanding according to this view, because it was born expanding.

According to some proposals, the Big Bang is a repeating cycle. Universes might expand, then shrink back to a point, then expand again. Thus the "Bang" would be really more like a bounce.

The idea is appealing in some ways, but scientists have found it far from easy to test. Einstein"s Theory of Relativity, a key basis for the Big Bang theory, is silent on what happened before that event.

"General relativity can be used to describe the universe back to a point at which matter becomes so dense that it"s equations don"t hold up," said Abhay Ashtekar, director of the Gravitational Physics and Geometry at Penn State University in University Park, Penn.

To go further, physicists must use tools Einstein didn"t have, he added. Ashtekar and two post-doctoral researchers developed such tools through a combination of Quantum physics- the science of subatomic particles"and general relativity, which describes the large-scale structure of space and time.

They found that before the Big Bang, there was a contracting universe. Other than the fact it was shrinking, they added, it was similar to ours in terms of the geometry of its space and time, or spacetime, as cosmologists call it since Einstein found the two are interwoven, etc, etc.

I would rather a theory which states that there are many galactic clusters out there within the boundless cosmos, each cluster in its own position in Space-time, consisting of billions of Galaxies falling inward toward a Great Abyss, Black Hole, or Bottomless Pit, where, once torn to pieces molecule by molecule, atom by atom, sub-atomic particle by sub-atomic particle, and reconverted into the electromagnetic energy from which they were created and accelerated along the dark worm hole to speeds far, far in excess of the speed of light, where that liquid like electromagnetic energy is spewed out in the trillions of degrees, somewhere far beyond the visible horizon of the boundless cosmos, where, from the cooling quantum of that electromagnetic energy a new universe is created, to which the light from its old position in space-time, would take billions upon billions of years to reach it.

But Just as the great thinkers took Copernicus"s theory of the sun centred universe and ran with it, evolving it over the many hundreds and hundreds of years, until it is seen today as the Big Bang theory, which is still in the process of evolution, as more and more data about the universe is gathered by the minds of man, so too, these upcoming theories, which are, still in their infancy, will eventually prove that the great religious minds of thousands and thousands of years ago, who believed the universe eternally oscillates between its two states of matter and energy, were correct.

Science will one day catch up with and prove that the Holy Scriptures are correct
Excalibur
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3/24/2015 5:34:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 5:29:04 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So what point do you disagree with and why ?

*facepalm* All of my comments to your OP has apparently eluded you.

It's pretty clear that you have no concept of what it is you're trying to debate. Don't bring up topics you can't defend.
RuvDraba
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3/24/2015 5:36:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 5:30:07 AM, Gentorev wrote:
Science will one day catch up with and prove that the Holy Scriptures are correct

Perhaps, but in the meantime, theologists are talking out of their hats -- and either honesty or humility would be appropriate.
Illegalcombatant
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3/24/2015 5:41:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 5:34:04 AM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/24/2015 5:29:04 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So what point do you disagree with and why ?

*facepalm* All of my comments to your OP has apparently eluded you.

It's pretty clear that you have no concept of what it is you're trying to debate. Don't bring up topics you can't defend.

You know if some one made an argument or train of thought with the following points.........

1) Hitler was nice to the jews
2) The world is flat
3) Stuff exists

I would say, well I disagree with you that Hitler was nice to the jews, on the basis that he supported policy that would end up killing 6 million, give or take.

What wouldn't be a good counter would be something like NO VANILLA IS BETTER THAN CHOCOLATE, since no such point was made nor did the argument depend on such a presupposition.

So if you want to get back to me and say hey your point here is XYZ, and I think that is wrong because.........(what ever).
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Excalibur
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3/24/2015 5:47:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 5:41:38 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
You know if some one made an argument or train of thought with the following points.........

1) Hitler was nice to the jews
2) The world is flat
3) Stuff exists

I would say, well I disagree with you that Hitler was nice to the jews, on the basis that he supported policy that would end up killing 6 million, give or take.

What wouldn't be a good counter would be something like NO VANILLA IS BETTER THAN CHOCOLATE, since no such point was made nor did the argument depend on such a presupposition.

So if you want to get back to me and say hey your point here is XYZ, and I think that is wrong because.........(what ever).

I made perfectly clear how one cannot be born with morals therefore God cannot be blamed, as child rape is wrong based on a moral stand point, but you chose to ignore it. I'm not going to argue your position for you.
MadCornishBiker
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3/24/2015 5:51:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 2:33:16 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
God = All powerful, all knowing, morally good, wise, taking an interest in human affairs.

The more and more I think about how free will is used as a defense/theodicy the more and more I see problems with it, to the point it becomes untenable.

So here is another.......

Say a child is raped, if God exists then why didn't this God prevent such a horror ? well you see free will...........

Now I assume most people are like me in this regard, the very thought of such a desire (sex & children) can hardly be imagined if at all be imagined, the very attempt at such a thought throws up disgust (strong emotion) road blocks.

But here is the thing, our disgust on such matters is not chosen, we can't take credit for having such a disgust, and as such as I understand it, such people who go in the opposite direction having strong sexual desire for children didn't choose to have such a desire either.

You are not entirely right in that supposition.

We are "programmed" against such things by our upbringing, by the reactions of others around us, even by things in the media.

Some people lack that peer-programming.

This "programming", "education" "brainwashing" starts in childhood.

We have a certain amount of evidence for this in the increasing number of young people growing up without the "controls" that were built into their grandparents by their upbringing, but not into their parents.

If you study the history of so-called civilisation you will see that the same has happened in every civilisation there has ever been, a constant and accelerating decline in standards in the name of "enlightenment" which is in fact the exact opposite of it claims to be.

The lower down this slippery slope we go, the more certain the self destruction of our "civilisation" becomes, as has always been the case, with no exceptions.

I am 66 years old.

I have lived through times when any public display of affection was taboo.

That slowly became more and more acceptable, but if a couple moved in together without the "benefit of clergy" they were shunned by their families.

That started to become acceptable, slowly, and homosexuality was made legal. The favourite joke at the time was "I'm emigrating before they make it compulsory".

If one's fianc"e came to stay he or she was still expected to sleep in a separate room.

I wonder what will be acceptable soon.

Hardly anyone batted an eye when a 10 year old gave birth to a child a decade or so ago. Apparently the father was only 12.

In my teens she would have been put in a home for "naughty girls" and her child adopted.

I am, from what I can tell, the product of an adulterous relationship. My birth certificate has no father's name on it.

My sister about two years younger has her father's name on hers, that of my mother's husband.

She and I were adopted at about the same time, and my mother appears to have disappeared of the face of this earth, probably institutionalised.

Some things have changed for the better at least, lol.


So, in that regard where is the free will concerning desire ? I don't see any.

If God exists God apparently has no problem for people (even most) having a strong disgust emotion (not of their choosing) to such a thing and thus are highly unlikely to do such a thing

BUT never the less allows a small percentage to go in the other direction where they have such strong sexual desire not of their choosing and for some also the ability to act on that desire hence the existence of child rape.

What I am getting at if God has no problem with people having the strong disgust of child rape then I don't think God would have a problem with everyone having such a strong disgust and in such a world child rape would not exist or at least be extremely minimal.

So why such selectivity of non chosen desire ? Cause God creates or arranges such a state of affairs ? logical possible ok I will give you that, plausible ? nah.

God hates how this system is, and has long planned to sort it out, but out of sheer justice has had to allow Satan a chance to prove his case.

He has done what little justice has allowed to make things easier for us, but his major protection is the resurrection of the dead. a real "last ditch defence".

Soon this wicked system will come to an end because Satan's time is almost up.

The only decision left for us to make is, whose side do we wish to be seen as being on? There are only two sides, and no neutrals, and being on the right side means positive action to prove Satan's challenge wrong in your case. Anything less puts you firmly on Satan's side because anything less proves him right.

It is that simple, and "all" we need is the patience to await God's time to sort it out. Not easy, but not impossible.

Having given Satan a set time, he will not vary that time either way.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/24/2015 5:52:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 5:47:03 AM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/24/2015 5:41:38 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
You know if some one made an argument or train of thought with the following points.........

1) Hitler was nice to the jews
2) The world is flat
3) Stuff exists

I would say, well I disagree with you that Hitler was nice to the jews, on the basis that he supported policy that would end up killing 6 million, give or take.

What wouldn't be a good counter would be something like NO VANILLA IS BETTER THAN CHOCOLATE, since no such point was made nor did the argument depend on such a presupposition.

So if you want to get back to me and say hey your point here is XYZ, and I think that is wrong because.........(what ever).

I made perfectly clear how one cannot be born with morals therefore God cannot be blamed, as child rape is wrong based on a moral stand point, but you chose to ignore it. I'm not going to argue your position for you.

I am going to give you one last chance.

Name one point I bought up (well not the conclusion) that you disagree with and why you think directly that specific claim should be rejected.

Here is my Point A, here is your refutation of Point A.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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3/24/2015 5:56:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 2:33:16 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
God = All powerful, all knowing, morally good, wise, taking an interest in human affairs.

The more and more I think about how free will is used as a defense/theodicy the more and more I see problems with it, to the point it becomes untenable.

So here is another.......

Say a child is raped, if God exists then why didn't this God prevent such a horror ? well you see free will...........

Now I assume most people are like me in this regard, the very thought of such a desire (sex & children) can hardly be imagined if at all be imagined, the very attempt at such a thought throws up disgust (strong emotion) road blocks.

But here is the thing, our disgust on such matters is not chosen, we can't take credit for having such a disgust, and as such as I understand it, such people who go in the opposite direction having strong sexual desire for children didn't choose to have such a desire either.

So, in that regard where is the free will concerning desire ? I don't see any.

I think there's lots of free will in relation to this scenario. I think a good man who was attracted to children would do his best not to be around children much, or only in situations where there were other adults. He would not indulge his desire by watching child porn, and he would try to distract himself by taking up other activities.

In order to rape a child, a man would have had to be alone with the child, which is not something that is necessarily easy to arrange, and he probably would have had to spend some time "grooming" the child into compliance. All those things would have required dozens if not hundreds of micro-decisions.

If God exists God apparently has no problem for people (even most) having a strong disgust emotion (not of their choosing) to such a thing and thus are highly unlikely to do such a thing

BUT never the less allows a small percentage to go in the other direction where they have such strong sexual desire not of their choosing and for some also the ability to act on that desire hence the existence of child rape.

What I am getting at if God has no problem with people having the strong disgust of child rape then I don't think God would have a problem with everyone having such a strong disgust and in such a world child rape would not exist or at least be extremely minimal.

So why such selectivity of non chosen desire ? Cause God creates or arranges such a state of affairs ? logical possible ok I will give you that, plausible ? nah.

I'm not religious, but if I were, I would argue it this way. If there was a bird or a turtle or even a baby watching the rape, they wouldn't see anything disgusting in it, probably. The disgust is from the meaning that we as humans understand and have constructed ourselves. The distance between our understanding and God's understanding is even greater than that between a turtle and us. We don't know what God sees in that situation. That means you can use it to prove evil, only that it seems evil to us.

It's an interesting example that you have chosen, because I think that most people would agree that it is worse to kill a child than to rape a child, and yet, there's something about raping a child that makes us particularly angry.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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3/24/2015 6:03:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 5:56:49 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:33:16 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
God = All powerful, all knowing, morally good, wise, taking an interest in human affairs.

The more and more I think about how free will is used as a defense/theodicy the more and more I see problems with it, to the point it becomes untenable.

So here is another.......

Say a child is raped, if God exists then why didn't this God prevent such a horror ? well you see free will...........

Now I assume most people are like me in this regard, the very thought of such a desire (sex & children) can hardly be imagined if at all be imagined, the very attempt at such a thought throws up disgust (strong emotion) road blocks.

But here is the thing, our disgust on such matters is not chosen, we can't take credit for having such a disgust, and as such as I understand it, such people who go in the opposite direction having strong sexual desire for children didn't choose to have such a desire either.

So, in that regard where is the free will concerning desire ? I don't see any.

I think there's lots of free will in relation to this scenario. I think a good man who was attracted to children would do his best not to be around children much, or only in situations where there were other adults. He would not indulge his desire by watching child porn, and he would try to distract himself by taking up other activities.

In order to rape a child, a man would have had to be alone with the child, which is not something that is necessarily easy to arrange, and he probably would have had to spend some time "grooming" the child into compliance. All those things would have required dozens if not hundreds of micro-decisions.

If God exists God apparently has no problem for people (even most) having a strong disgust emotion (not of their choosing) to such a thing and thus are highly unlikely to do such a thing

BUT never the less allows a small percentage to go in the other direction where they have such strong sexual desire not of their choosing and for some also the ability to act on that desire hence the existence of child rape.

What I am getting at if God has no problem with people having the strong disgust of child rape then I don't think God would have a problem with everyone having such a strong disgust and in such a world child rape would not exist or at least be extremely minimal.

So why such selectivity of non chosen desire ? Cause God creates or arranges such a state of affairs ? logical possible ok I will give you that, plausible ? nah.

I'm not religious, but if I were, I would argue it this way. If there was a bird or a turtle or even a baby watching the rape, they wouldn't see anything disgusting in it, probably. The disgust is from the meaning that we as humans understand and have constructed ourselves. The distance between our understanding and God's understanding is even greater than that between a turtle and us. We don't know what God sees in that situation. That means you can use it to prove evil, only that it seems evil to us.

It's an interesting example that you have chosen, because I think that most people would agree that it is worse to kill a child than to rape a child, and yet, there's something about raping a child that makes us particularly angry.

It is a very emotive example, which is why it was chosen.

Most people lose sight of logic when such an emotional issue is put before them.