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Fine Tuned Universe, my restance.

ChristianPunk
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3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.
dhardage
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3/24/2015 8:58:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

Then you don't understand how the universe works or read the news. It has been publicized that new findings indicate that there could be literally millions of planets in the so-called Goldilocks zone and, if what some scientists are researching bears fruit, life could exist on some of the other bodies in our solar system.

See, life is a result, not a cause. We see our world as fine tuned for us because we developed within that environment. We're the water in a glass, saying that the glass was made to fit us when in truth we just fit the glass. Conditions were right, life developed. I suspect that in the not too distant future we will discover that we aren't the only life, perhaps not the only intelligent life in this universe. I probably won't live to see that day but I am confident that it will come.

What would you say if we did find life on another world? How would that change your perception, your beliefs, your faith?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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3/24/2015 9:21:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

The fine tuned argument doesn't even exist, it is a fallacy made up by believers who have little to no understanding of science and how things work.

Earth is in the Habitable zone of our sun, however there are many uninhabitable areas of earth humans could not sustain themselves.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/24/2015 9:24:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 9:21:39 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

The fine tuned argument doesn't even exist, it is a fallacy made up by believers who have little to no understanding of science and how things work.

Earth is in the Habitable zone of our sun, however there are many uninhabitable areas of earth humans could not sustain themselves.

LMAO. You are aware that scientists are one who first brought up the fine tuning puzzle right?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
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3/24/2015 9:24:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:58:42 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

Then you don't understand how the universe works or read the news. It has been publicized that new findings indicate that there could be literally millions of planets in the so-called Goldilocks zone and, if what some scientists are researching bears fruit, life could exist on some of the other bodies in our solar system.

See, life is a result, not a cause. We see our world as fine tuned for us because we developed within that environment. We're the water in a glass, saying that the glass was made to fit us when in truth we just fit the glass. Conditions were right, life developed. I suspect that in the not too distant future we will discover that we aren't the only life, perhaps not the only intelligent life in this universe. I probably won't live to see that day but I am confident that it will come.

What would you say if we did find life on another world? How would that change your perception, your beliefs, your faith?

Your rebuttal doesn't make sense. He didn't say that the universe was fine tuned for humans (or humans exclusively).
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
ChristianPunk
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3/24/2015 9:30:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:58:42 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

Then you don't understand how the universe works or read the news. It has been publicized that new findings indicate that there could be literally millions of planets in the so-called Goldilocks zone and, if what some scientists are researching bears fruit, life could exist on some of the other bodies in our solar system.

See, life is a result, not a cause. We see our world as fine tuned for us because we developed within that environment. We're the water in a glass, saying that the glass was made to fit us when in truth we just fit the glass. Conditions were right, life developed. I suspect that in the not too distant future we will discover that we aren't the only life, perhaps not the only intelligent life in this universe. I probably won't live to see that day but I am confident that it will come.

What would you say if we did find life on another world? How would that change your perception, your beliefs, your faith?

How old are these planets?
Envisage
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3/24/2015 9:37:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

Go ahead and formally present the fine tuning argument, I will be waiting. See some of my old devil's advocate debates (vs. Zmikecuber/Zarroette) if you need some ideas.
Vox_Veritas
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3/24/2015 9:52:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

The Universe is fine-tuned. The way that protons, neutrons, and electrons interact with each other is fine-tuned; were their behavior only slightly different life would be impossible. Physics itself is set to such "settings" as to make life possible; were the settings changed slightly, life would be impossible.
Since the Universe's settings are what they are and not some other "setting" where life would be impossible (and it's more probable that a chance-based Universe would have settings unsuitable for life than not), either it was designed or there's a Multiverse. In the case of a multiverse, what reason is there to believe that the laws of physics would vary and not all be the same regardless of Universe?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
popculturepooka
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3/24/2015 9:55:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 9:37:39 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

Go ahead and formally present the fine tuning argument, I will be waiting. See some of my old devil's advocate debates (vs. Zmikecuber/Zarroette) if you need some ideas.

I might take you up on that.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Envisage
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3/24/2015 9:55:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 9:55:06 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/24/2015 9:37:39 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

Go ahead and formally present the fine tuning argument, I will be waiting. See some of my old devil's advocate debates (vs. Zmikecuber/Zarroette) if you need some ideas.

I might take you up on that.

??
DanneJeRusse
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3/24/2015 9:58:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 9:24:00 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/24/2015 9:21:39 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

The fine tuned argument doesn't even exist, it is a fallacy made up by believers who have little to no understanding of science and how things work.

Earth is in the Habitable zone of our sun, however there are many uninhabitable areas of earth humans could not sustain themselves.

LMAO. You are aware that scientists are one who first brought up the fine tuning puzzle right?

I'm talking about the fine tuned "argument" from theists, not what scientists actually said, which is very different from the so-called argument.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
dhardage
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3/24/2015 12:07:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 9:52:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

The Universe is fine-tuned. The way that protons, neutrons, and electrons interact with each other is fine-tuned; were their behavior only slightly different life would be impossible

Life as we know it. No one knows what other forms of life might have arisen if these constants were different.

. Physics itself is set to such "settings" as to make life possible; were the settings changed slightly, life would be impossible.

See above.

Since the Universe's settings are what they are and not some other "setting" where life would be impossible (and it's more probable that a chance-based Universe would have settings unsuitable for life than not), either it was designed or there's a Multiverse. In the case of a multiverse, what reason is there to believe that the laws of physics would vary and not all be the same regardless of Universe?

This is irrelevant to the OP and discussion.
dhardage
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3/24/2015 12:09:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 9:30:46 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:58:42 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

Then you don't understand how the universe works or read the news. It has been publicized that new findings indicate that there could be literally millions of planets in the so-called Goldilocks zone and, if what some scientists are researching bears fruit, life could exist on some of the other bodies in our solar system.

See, life is a result, not a cause. We see our world as fine tuned for us because we developed within that environment. We're the water in a glass, saying that the glass was made to fit us when in truth we just fit the glass. Conditions were right, life developed. I suspect that in the not too distant future we will discover that we aren't the only life, perhaps not the only intelligent life in this universe. I probably won't live to see that day but I am confident that it will come.

What would you say if we did find life on another world? How would that change your perception, your beliefs, your faith?

How old are these planets?

It varies, based on the ages of their parent stars. Your question is irrelevant to the discussion of the Fine Tuned argument that you are now supporting.

I ask you again, what would you do if life were to be found on another planet? How would that change your perceptions, your beliefs, your faith? It's a fairly straightforward query.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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3/24/2015 1:05:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 12:09:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 9:30:46 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:58:42 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

Then you don't understand how the universe works or read the news. It has been publicized that new findings indicate that there could be literally millions of planets in the so-called Goldilocks zone and, if what some scientists are researching bears fruit, life could exist on some of the other bodies in our solar system.

See, life is a result, not a cause. We see our world as fine tuned for us because we developed within that environment. We're the water in a glass, saying that the glass was made to fit us when in truth we just fit the glass. Conditions were right, life developed. I suspect that in the not too distant future we will discover that we aren't the only life, perhaps not the only intelligent life in this universe. I probably won't live to see that day but I am confident that it will come.

What would you say if we did find life on another world? How would that change your perception, your beliefs, your faith?

How old are these planets?

It varies, based on the ages of their parent stars. Your question is irrelevant to the discussion of the Fine Tuned argument that you are now supporting.

I ask you again, what would you do if life were to be found on another planet? How would that change your perceptions, your beliefs, your faith? It's a fairly straightforward query.

It wouldn't change my perceptions. It would make me think based on the question of if our earth came before theirs, how they came to being, etc. It is questions like these that matter. But the bible doesn't state that God doesn't want to continue his creation.
dhardage
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3/24/2015 1:10:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 1:05:07 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:09:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 9:30:46 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:58:42 AM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

Then you don't understand how the universe works or read the news. It has been publicized that new findings indicate that there could be literally millions of planets in the so-called Goldilocks zone and, if what some scientists are researching bears fruit, life could exist on some of the other bodies in our solar system.

See, life is a result, not a cause. We see our world as fine tuned for us because we developed within that environment. We're the water in a glass, saying that the glass was made to fit us when in truth we just fit the glass. Conditions were right, life developed. I suspect that in the not too distant future we will discover that we aren't the only life, perhaps not the only intelligent life in this universe. I probably won't live to see that day but I am confident that it will come.

What would you say if we did find life on another world? How would that change your perception, your beliefs, your faith?

How old are these planets?

It varies, based on the ages of their parent stars. Your question is irrelevant to the discussion of the Fine Tuned argument that you are now supporting.

I ask you again, what would you do if life were to be found on another planet? How would that change your perceptions, your beliefs, your faith? It's a fairly straightforward query.

It wouldn't change my perceptions. It would make me think based on the question of if our earth came before theirs, how they came to being, etc. It is questions like these that matter. But the bible doesn't state that God doesn't want to continue his creation.

Nor does it state that God created life on any other planet or world.
ChristianPunk
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3/24/2015 1:19:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 9:37:39 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

Go ahead and formally present the fine tuning argument, I will be waiting. See some of my old devil's advocate debates (vs. Zmikecuber/Zarroette) if you need some ideas.

My formal fine tuned argument is simple.

That Earth is in a position in the universe where it can receive the right amount of heating and cooling to be "just right". This is an argument I have taken from Hugh Ross, an old earth creationist. I may still be an evolutionary creationist, but I believe naturalism does not entirely account as a viable automatic option because cosmology studies seem to suggest that a possible beginning and a causal agent is able to be a viable theory.
DanneJeRusse
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3/24/2015 1:23:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 1:19:10 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/24/2015 9:37:39 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

Go ahead and formally present the fine tuning argument, I will be waiting. See some of my old devil's advocate debates (vs. Zmikecuber/Zarroette) if you need some ideas.

My formal fine tuned argument is simple.

That Earth is in a position in the universe where it can receive the right amount of heating and cooling to be "just right". This is an argument I have taken from Hugh Ross, an old earth creationist. I may still be an evolutionary creationist, but I believe naturalism does not entirely account as a viable automatic option because cosmology studies seem to suggest that a possible beginning and a causal agent is able to be a viable theory.

It isn't an argument because the Habitable zone is different for different stars.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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3/24/2015 1:30:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 1:19:10 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/24/2015 9:37:39 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

Go ahead and formally present the fine tuning argument, I will be waiting. See some of my old devil's advocate debates (vs. Zmikecuber/Zarroette) if you need some ideas.

My formal fine tuned argument is simple.

That Earth is in a position in the universe where it can receive the right amount of heating and cooling to be "just right". This is an argument I have taken from Hugh Ross, an old earth creationist. I may still be an evolutionary creationist, but I believe naturalism does not entirely account as a viable automatic option because cosmology studies seem to suggest that a possible beginning and a causal agent is able to be a viable theory.

And his argument is full of holes. There are numerous parts of our planet we cannot live on without a lot of help. There are literally billions of stars and billions of galaxies out there, each star with its own Goldilocks zone (everything is just right) so, as I said, live is most likely to exist elsewhere. It's even possible, given new information, that some form of it may exist beneath the ice on a couple of moons of our gas giant cousin planets.

Look at it this way. If we are the only planet with life and the entire universe was designed and built for us, why are we living on a tiny speck of rock circling a small, common star on the far edge of an average sized galaxy? Why are we not able to live in all that space? Why must we remain here? What a waste to created a universe for a life form and then make it so that the life form can only live in the tiniest fraction of that universe? It's senseless and any omnipotent, omniscient being could do a whole lot better job of design. Heck, given the power to rearrange things, I could do a better job and I'm far from omniscient.

Read up on current cosmology and you will find no hint, no indication of any 'agent' that directed the development of the universe. Natural forces, natural results.
Vox_Veritas
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3/24/2015 2:09:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 12:07:34 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 9:52:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

The Universe is fine-tuned. The way that protons, neutrons, and electrons interact with each other is fine-tuned; were their behavior only slightly different life would be impossible

Life as we know it. No one knows what other forms of life might have arisen if these constants were different.

. Physics itself is set to such "settings" as to make life possible; were the settings changed slightly, life would be impossible.

See above.

Since the Universe's settings are what they are and not some other "setting" where life would be impossible (and it's more probable that a chance-based Universe would have settings unsuitable for life than not), either it was designed or there's a Multiverse. In the case of a multiverse, what reason is there to believe that the laws of physics would vary and not all be the same regardless of Universe?

This is irrelevant to the OP and discussion.

I anticipated this response. Atheists often make the assumption that other forms of life would emerge under different Universal laws. Under many of the changes in question, however, it'd be impossible. Jurassic Park was wrong; life does not always find a way.
http://www.reasons.org...
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
DanneJeRusse
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3/24/2015 2:30:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 2:09:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:07:34 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 9:52:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

The Universe is fine-tuned. The way that protons, neutrons, and electrons interact with each other is fine-tuned; were their behavior only slightly different life would be impossible

Life as we know it. No one knows what other forms of life might have arisen if these constants were different.

. Physics itself is set to such "settings" as to make life possible; were the settings changed slightly, life would be impossible.

See above.

Since the Universe's settings are what they are and not some other "setting" where life would be impossible (and it's more probable that a chance-based Universe would have settings unsuitable for life than not), either it was designed or there's a Multiverse. In the case of a multiverse, what reason is there to believe that the laws of physics would vary and not all be the same regardless of Universe?

This is irrelevant to the OP and discussion.

I anticipated this response. Atheists often make the assumption that other forms of life would emerge under different Universal laws. Under many of the changes in question, however, it'd be impossible. Jurassic Park was wrong; life does not always find a way.
http://www.reasons.org...

"Dr. Ross - Lying for God"

http://skepticalprobe.blogspot.ca...
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
dhardage
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3/24/2015 3:06:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 2:09:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:07:34 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 9:52:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

The Universe is fine-tuned. The way that protons, neutrons, and electrons interact with each other is fine-tuned; were their behavior only slightly different life would be impossible

Life as we know it. No one knows what other forms of life might have arisen if these constants were different.

. Physics itself is set to such "settings" as to make life possible; were the settings changed slightly, life would be impossible.

See above.

Since the Universe's settings are what they are and not some other "setting" where life would be impossible (and it's more probable that a chance-based Universe would have settings unsuitable for life than not), either it was designed or there's a Multiverse. In the case of a multiverse, what reason is there to believe that the laws of physics would vary and not all be the same regardless of Universe?

This is irrelevant to the OP and discussion.

I anticipated this response. Atheists often make the assumption that other forms of life would emerge under different Universal laws. Under many of the changes in question, however, it'd be impossible. Jurassic Park was wrong; life does not always find a way.
http://www.reasons.org...

No one said life would definitely form, I said life as we know it might not and something else might. We don't know because we can't create those conditions. I'm ok with not knowing. None of that indicates that there was any intelligent agent that caused the universe to be structured as it is. We are a result, not a cause.
Vox_Veritas
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3/24/2015 3:10:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 2:30:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:09:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:07:34 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 9:52:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

The Universe is fine-tuned. The way that protons, neutrons, and electrons interact with each other is fine-tuned; were their behavior only slightly different life would be impossible

Life as we know it. No one knows what other forms of life might have arisen if these constants were different.

. Physics itself is set to such "settings" as to make life possible; were the settings changed slightly, life would be impossible.

See above.

Since the Universe's settings are what they are and not some other "setting" where life would be impossible (and it's more probable that a chance-based Universe would have settings unsuitable for life than not), either it was designed or there's a Multiverse. In the case of a multiverse, what reason is there to believe that the laws of physics would vary and not all be the same regardless of Universe?

This is irrelevant to the OP and discussion.

I anticipated this response. Atheists often make the assumption that other forms of life would emerge under different Universal laws. Under many of the changes in question, however, it'd be impossible. Jurassic Park was wrong; life does not always find a way.
http://www.reasons.org...

"Dr. Ross - Lying for God"

http://skepticalprobe.blogspot.ca...

So basically "Dr. Ross" said Creationist stuff and a whole bunch of evolution-believing scientists got mad and accused him of acting deceptively. Or was there more to it than that?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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3/24/2015 3:21:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 3:10:16 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:30:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:09:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:07:34 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 9:52:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

The Universe is fine-tuned. The way that protons, neutrons, and electrons interact with each other is fine-tuned; were their behavior only slightly different life would be impossible

Life as we know it. No one knows what other forms of life might have arisen if these constants were different.

. Physics itself is set to such "settings" as to make life possible; were the settings changed slightly, life would be impossible.

See above.

Since the Universe's settings are what they are and not some other "setting" where life would be impossible (and it's more probable that a chance-based Universe would have settings unsuitable for life than not), either it was designed or there's a Multiverse. In the case of a multiverse, what reason is there to believe that the laws of physics would vary and not all be the same regardless of Universe?

This is irrelevant to the OP and discussion.

I anticipated this response. Atheists often make the assumption that other forms of life would emerge under different Universal laws. Under many of the changes in question, however, it'd be impossible. Jurassic Park was wrong; life does not always find a way.
http://www.reasons.org...

"Dr. Ross - Lying for God"

http://skepticalprobe.blogspot.ca...

So basically "Dr. Ross" said Creationist stuff and a whole bunch of evolution-believing scientists got mad and accused him of acting deceptively. Or was there more to it than that?

The man lied.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
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3/24/2015 3:33:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 3:21:41 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 3:10:16 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:30:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:09:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:07:34 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 9:52:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

The Universe is fine-tuned. The way that protons, neutrons, and electrons interact with each other is fine-tuned; were their behavior only slightly different life would be impossible

Life as we know it. No one knows what other forms of life might have arisen if these constants were different.

. Physics itself is set to such "settings" as to make life possible; were the settings changed slightly, life would be impossible.

See above.

Since the Universe's settings are what they are and not some other "setting" where life would be impossible (and it's more probable that a chance-based Universe would have settings unsuitable for life than not), either it was designed or there's a Multiverse. In the case of a multiverse, what reason is there to believe that the laws of physics would vary and not all be the same regardless of Universe?

This is irrelevant to the OP and discussion.

I anticipated this response. Atheists often make the assumption that other forms of life would emerge under different Universal laws. Under many of the changes in question, however, it'd be impossible. Jurassic Park was wrong; life does not always find a way.
http://www.reasons.org...

"Dr. Ross - Lying for God"

http://skepticalprobe.blogspot.ca...

So basically "Dr. Ross" said Creationist stuff and a whole bunch of evolution-believing scientists got mad and accused him of acting deceptively. Or was there more to it than that?

The man lied.

What did he lie about? I know that the article is claiming he lied, but I'm assuming that's just code for "he advocated creationism/ID".
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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3/24/2015 3:35:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 3:33:28 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 3:21:41 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 3:10:16 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:30:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:09:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:07:34 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 9:52:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

The Universe is fine-tuned. The way that protons, neutrons, and electrons interact with each other is fine-tuned; were their behavior only slightly different life would be impossible

Life as we know it. No one knows what other forms of life might have arisen if these constants were different.

. Physics itself is set to such "settings" as to make life possible; were the settings changed slightly, life would be impossible.

See above.

Since the Universe's settings are what they are and not some other "setting" where life would be impossible (and it's more probable that a chance-based Universe would have settings unsuitable for life than not), either it was designed or there's a Multiverse. In the case of a multiverse, what reason is there to believe that the laws of physics would vary and not all be the same regardless of Universe?

This is irrelevant to the OP and discussion.

I anticipated this response. Atheists often make the assumption that other forms of life would emerge under different Universal laws. Under many of the changes in question, however, it'd be impossible. Jurassic Park was wrong; life does not always find a way.
http://www.reasons.org...

"Dr. Ross - Lying for God"

http://skepticalprobe.blogspot.ca...

So basically "Dr. Ross" said Creationist stuff and a whole bunch of evolution-believing scientists got mad and accused him of acting deceptively. Or was there more to it than that?

The man lied.

What did he lie about? I know that the article is claiming he lied, but I'm assuming that's just code for "he advocated creationism/ID".

You're not worth arguing with. He claimed quotes from documents to support his POV which were never in those documents. He lied. Period.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
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3/24/2015 3:37:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 3:35:22 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 3:33:28 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 3:21:41 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 3:10:16 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:30:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:09:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:07:34 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 9:52:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

The Universe is fine-tuned. The way that protons, neutrons, and electrons interact with each other is fine-tuned; were their behavior only slightly different life would be impossible

Life as we know it. No one knows what other forms of life might have arisen if these constants were different.

. Physics itself is set to such "settings" as to make life possible; were the settings changed slightly, life would be impossible.

See above.

Since the Universe's settings are what they are and not some other "setting" where life would be impossible (and it's more probable that a chance-based Universe would have settings unsuitable for life than not), either it was designed or there's a Multiverse. In the case of a multiverse, what reason is there to believe that the laws of physics would vary and not all be the same regardless of Universe?

This is irrelevant to the OP and discussion.

I anticipated this response. Atheists often make the assumption that other forms of life would emerge under different Universal laws. Under many of the changes in question, however, it'd be impossible. Jurassic Park was wrong; life does not always find a way.
http://www.reasons.org...

"Dr. Ross - Lying for God"

http://skepticalprobe.blogspot.ca...

So basically "Dr. Ross" said Creationist stuff and a whole bunch of evolution-believing scientists got mad and accused him of acting deceptively. Or was there more to it than that?

The man lied.

What did he lie about? I know that the article is claiming he lied, but I'm assuming that's just code for "he advocated creationism/ID".

You're not worth arguing with. He claimed quotes from documents to support his POV which were never in those documents. He lied. Period.

Okay then. He lied.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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3/24/2015 3:48:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 3:10:16 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:30:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 3/24/2015 2:09:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 12:07:34 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 3/24/2015 9:52:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

The Universe is fine-tuned. The way that protons, neutrons, and electrons interact with each other is fine-tuned; were their behavior only slightly different life would be impossible

Life as we know it. No one knows what other forms of life might have arisen if these constants were different.

. Physics itself is set to such "settings" as to make life possible; were the settings changed slightly, life would be impossible.

See above.

Since the Universe's settings are what they are and not some other "setting" where life would be impossible (and it's more probable that a chance-based Universe would have settings unsuitable for life than not), either it was designed or there's a Multiverse. In the case of a multiverse, what reason is there to believe that the laws of physics would vary and not all be the same regardless of Universe?

This is irrelevant to the OP and discussion.

I anticipated this response. Atheists often make the assumption that other forms of life would emerge under different Universal laws. Under many of the changes in question, however, it'd be impossible. Jurassic Park was wrong; life does not always find a way.
http://www.reasons.org...

"Dr. Ross - Lying for God"

http://skepticalprobe.blogspot.ca...

So basically "Dr. Ross" said Creationist stuff and a whole bunch of evolution-believing scientists got mad and accused him of acting deceptively. Or was there more to it than that?

Yes, much more.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/24/2015 3:48:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

We're experiencing disharmonic vibrations during this first age but God will straighten them out very soon.

Isaiah 40
3: A voice cries: "In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4: Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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3/24/2015 3:51:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:53:12 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I now believe the Fine Tuned Universe argument isn't as lame as I thought. I think there is possible truth behind it since our planet is in a place where life is possible since it is the right distance away from the sun, not far or close, just right. But so far, the only way I can see the universe showing any fine tuning is the elements used to bring about life and the distance that Earth is from the sun.

Does the fact that the Universe is so finely tuned that they could plan ten years in advance to have a space probe in exactly the right place and travelling at exactly the right speed to come together and be able to land a probe in it.

If the universe were not absolutely finely tuned that would not have been possible.

To me that is extreme evidence of creation by an outstandingly intelligent and capable being.

The sort of being who could write, and modify DNA as and when needed.
Kozu
Posts: 381
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3/24/2015 3:54:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
In order for something to even qualify as "finely tuned" it must be assumed that it needed to be tuned in the first place or that it can even be tuned at all. I would wager that these "forces" couldn't be any other way in the first place, we have never experienced an "untuned" force so it seems unreasonable to assume such a thing exists. It makes far more sense to believe that matter interacts with each-other this way because of what they actually are, not what someone set their properties to.
This Idea would also have to assume that the universe is already tuned to an optimal capacity. I don't see why god couldn't "fine tune" the universe even further so that there would be more than 1 known planet to harbor life. If anything, I would find this as evidence of an "untuned" universe.