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Deuteronomy 22:28-29: WTF?

Illegalcombatant
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3/24/2015 8:13:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:03:33 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
https://www.biblegateway.com...

Best book on morality ever !!!
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
SmallTacos
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3/24/2015 8:29:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Remember that these were different times, when women could not often eat when they did not have a husband because they couldn't make the money.
I am groot.
LiberalProlifer
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3/24/2015 8:31:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:13:23 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:03:33 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
https://www.biblegateway.com...

Best book on morality ever !!!

Why does the Bible tell rape victims to marry their rapist?
LiberalProlifer
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3/24/2015 8:34:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:29:33 PM, SmallTacos wrote:
Remember that these were different times, when women could not often eat when they did not have a husband because they couldn't make the money.

I hate that argument. Rape culure is when victims are forced to marry their rapist/. That would be like me saying that slavery is acceptable because of the times.
LiberalProlifer
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3/24/2015 8:35:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:26:29 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:03:33 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
https://www.biblegateway.com...

That's what happens when you translate it the NCV way.

The NCV is a good translation.
SmallTacos
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3/24/2015 8:36:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:34:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:29:33 PM, SmallTacos wrote:
Remember that these were different times, when women could not often eat when they did not have a husband because they couldn't make the money.

I hate that argument. Rape culure is when victims are forced to marry their rapist/. That would be like me saying that slavery is acceptable because of the times.

You don't understand. After she had been violated, she could not be married by anyone but her rapist because she was no longer a virgin.
I am groot.
LiberalProlifer
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3/24/2015 8:39:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:36:00 PM, SmallTacos wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:34:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:29:33 PM, SmallTacos wrote:
Remember that these were different times, when women could not often eat when they did not have a husband because they couldn't make the money.

I hate that argument. Rape culure is when victims are forced to marry their rapist/. That would be like me saying that slavery is acceptable because of the times.

You don't understand. After she had been violated, she could not be married by anyone but her rapist because she was no longer a virgin.

That is rape culture. I want nothing to do with either one of my rapists, let alone marry them.
Illegalcombatant
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3/24/2015 8:46:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:31:20 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:13:23 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:03:33 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
https://www.biblegateway.com...

Best book on morality ever !!!

Why does the Bible tell rape victims to marry their rapist?

Cause that is the best that God could come up with when addressing such a circumstance.

We worship an AWESOME GOD !!!
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
stubs
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3/24/2015 10:45:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:57:50 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
So God is unable to havea higher standard?

I think God does have a higher standard. I mean Christians are called to be perfect as He is perfect. But I think as someone has already pointed out, yes, what God commands here is certainly not the ideal, at the time it was progress. Which I think is a constant theme that we see with the commandments of God. So in this case when a woman is raped she would not normally have anyone to care for her, no one would marry her ect. (as some have already pointed out). This idea that she is to marry then, gives her someone to take care of her and it is an improvement upon the social norm. And like I said, I think that is a trend we see throughout the bible. God puts in laws which are not always the absolute ideal, but are an improvement from the social norm.
ChristianPunk
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3/24/2015 10:58:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:03:33 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
https://www.biblegateway.com...

what made you determine the NCV as a good translation? My views on this are mixed because several translations and the Hebrew even suggest that it says that, but seizing her or using force is left out.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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3/24/2015 11:10:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:31:20 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:13:23 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:03:33 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
https://www.biblegateway.com...

Best book on morality ever !!!

Why does the Bible tell rape victims to marry their rapist?

Because the Bible is written from the male perspective with women as property. It isn't telling rape victims to marry their rapists, it's telling rapists "you broke it, you bought it."
Excalibur
Posts: 170
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3/24/2015 11:35:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 8:03:33 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
https://www.biblegateway.com...

You cannot cherry pick which verses you believe suit your agenda and try to pass that on without understanding to those without understanding. That is willful misleading.

The verse deals with a man finding a woman in a field, meaning she was there on her own choice. The word rape here is used to signify the taking of ones virginity. Not the same way in which we use rape today. If you're looking for justice that man must doll out to the one convicted of the crime we know as rape then you have to read back three verses.

Deuteronomy 22:25-26 "But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:"
LiberalProlifer
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3/25/2015 12:19:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 10:45:16 PM, stubs wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:57:50 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
So God is unable to havea higher standard?

I think God does have a higher standard. I mean Christians are called to be perfect as He is perfect. But I think as someone has already pointed out, yes, what God commands here is certainly not the ideal, at the time it was progress. Which I think is a constant theme that we see with the commandments of God. So in this case when a woman is raped she would not normally have anyone to care for her, no one would marry her ect. (as some have already pointed out). This idea that she is to marry then, gives her someone to take care of her and it is an improvement upon the social norm. And like I said, I think that is a trend we see throughout the bible. God puts in laws which are not always the absolute ideal, but are an improvement from the social norm.

I have news for you: People do not want to suffer.
FaustianJustice
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3/25/2015 12:21:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 11:35:39 PM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:03:33 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
https://www.biblegateway.com...

You cannot cherry pick which verses you believe suit your agenda and try to pass that on without understanding to those without understanding. That is willful misleading.

The verse deals with a man finding a woman in a field, meaning she was there on her own choice. The word rape here is used to signify the taking of ones virginity. Not the same way in which we use rape today. If you're looking for justice that man must doll out to the one convicted of the crime we know as rape then you have to read back three verses.

He gets death cause he raped a betrothed female. The other must marry the female as she was not betrothed, and as was stated above "you break it, you bought it".

Deuteronomy 22:25-26 "But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:"

"But if a man meets an engaged girl out in the country and forces her to have sexual relations with him, only the man who had sexual relations with her must be put to death. 26 Don"t do anything to the girl, because she has not done a sin worthy of death. This is like the person who attacks and murders a neighbor; 27 the man found the engaged girl in the country and she screamed, but no one was there to save her.

28 If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged to be married and forces her to have sexual relations with him and people find out about it, 29 the man must pay the girl"s father about one and one-fourth pounds of silver. He must also marry the girl, because he has dishonored her, and he may never divorce her for as long as he lives.

Not terribly sure where you are drawing your information for re "rape as we understand it".
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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3/25/2015 12:22:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 10:58:00 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:03:33 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
https://www.biblegateway.com...

what made you determine the NCV as a good translation? My views on this are mixed because several translations and the Hebrew even suggest that it says that, but seizing her or using force is left out.

It is accurate and easy to read. I have the right to like whatever I want.
LiberalProlifer
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3/25/2015 12:24:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 11:10:04 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:31:20 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:13:23 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:03:33 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
https://www.biblegateway.com...

Best book on morality ever !!!

Why does the Bible tell rape victims to marry their rapist?

Because the Bible is written from the male perspective with women as property. It isn't telling rape victims to marry their rapists, it's telling rapists "you broke it, you bought it."

I agree. You are really smart.
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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3/25/2015 12:27:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/24/2015 11:35:39 PM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:03:33 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
https://www.biblegateway.com...

You cannot cherry pick which verses you believe suit your agenda and try to pass that on without understanding to those without understanding. That is willful misleading.

The verse deals with a man finding a woman in a field, meaning she was there on her own choice. The word rape here is used to signify the taking of ones virginity. Not the same way in which we use rape today. If you're looking for justice that man must doll out to the one convicted of the crime we know as rape then you have to read back three verses.

Deuteronomy 22:25-26 "But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:"
You are wrong. I am NOT cherry picking anything. It is not cherry picking to criticize religion. Nice strawman.
Excalibur
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3/25/2015 1:12:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 12:27:43 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 3/24/2015 11:35:39 PM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/24/2015 8:03:33 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
https://www.biblegateway.com...

You cannot cherry pick which verses you believe suit your agenda and try to pass that on without understanding to those without understanding. That is willful misleading.

The verse deals with a man finding a woman in a field, meaning she was there on her own choice. The word rape here is used to signify the taking of ones virginity. Not the same way in which we use rape today. If you're looking for justice that man must doll out to the one convicted of the crime we know as rape then you have to read back three verses.

Deuteronomy 22:25-26 "But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:"
You are wrong. I am NOT cherry picking anything. It is not cherry picking to criticize religion. Nice strawman.

Not a strawman, as you are cherry picking. I did not say it was wrong to criticize religion. I'm asserting that you willfully chose a topic that you had to have known was wrong, as the verse does not represent want you wish to; the verse dealing with rape being literally three verses behind it.
Excalibur
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3/25/2015 1:21:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 12:21:20 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:

He gets death cause he raped a betrothed female. The other must marry the female as she was not betrothed, and as was stated above "you break it, you bought it".

In the verse: "lay hold on her, and lie with her" -deuteronomy 22:28

That is not rape. She was willing. In the 25th verse, it was force. "Deuteronomy 22:25-26 "But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her"

You're confusing force with willingness. They are both virgins. One has to marry the one that was willing to sleep with him, while unmarried. The other has to die, as she was not willing.

"Not terribly sure where you are drawing your information for re "rape as we understand it."

The NIV.
FaustianJustice
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3/25/2015 1:39:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 1:21:00 AM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/25/2015 12:21:20 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:

He gets death cause he raped a betrothed female. The other must marry the female as she was not betrothed, and as was stated above "you break it, you bought it".

In the verse: "lay hold on her, and lie with her" -deuteronomy 22:28

That is not rape. She was willing. In the 25th verse, it was force. "Deuteronomy 22:25-26 "But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her"

You're confusing force with willingness. They are both virgins. One has to marry the one that was willing to sleep with him, while unmarried. The other has to die, as she was not willing.


"Not terribly sure where you are drawing your information for re "rape as we understand it."

The NIV.

... I copied and pasted the verses in question from the link provided. Both instances refer to "force her". That is 'rape', cut and dry. From the NIV:

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death"the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man"s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

KJV uses similar language.

So, just to be clear, is what we have is: a virgin being raped in town and her rapist being stoned, because apparently, she didn't scream loud enough.

When out in a field, on the other hand, just stone HIM.

And if she wasn't engaged or what not, he takes her as a wife and can't divorce her.

In all this, we still aren't dealing with a great situation. At all. Dare I say, its a bit barbaric and sexist. That is the context. No cherry picking required.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/25/2015 1:57:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 1:39:45 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 3/25/2015 1:21:00 AM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/25/2015 12:21:20 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:

He gets death cause he raped a betrothed female. The other must marry the female as she was not betrothed, and as was stated above "you break it, you bought it".

In the verse: "lay hold on her, and lie with her" -deuteronomy 22:28

That is not rape. She was willing. In the 25th verse, it was force. "Deuteronomy 22:25-26 "But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her"

You're confusing force with willingness. They are both virgins. One has to marry the one that was willing to sleep with him, while unmarried. The other has to die, as she was not willing.


"Not terribly sure where you are drawing your information for re "rape as we understand it."

The NIV.

... I copied and pasted the verses in question from the link provided. Both instances refer to "force her". That is 'rape', cut and dry. From the NIV:

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death"the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man"s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

KJV uses similar language.

So, just to be clear, is what we have is: a virgin being raped in town and her rapist being stoned, because apparently, she didn't scream loud enough.

When out in a field, on the other hand, just stone HIM.

And if she wasn't engaged or what not, he takes her as a wife and can't divorce her.

In all this, we still aren't dealing with a great situation. At all. Dare I say, its a bit barbaric and sexist. That is the context. No cherry picking required.

https://www.youtube.com...

Its a book, and it's good, cause it's a good book
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Excalibur
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3/25/2015 2:29:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 1:39:45 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
... I copied and pasted the verses in question from the link provided. Both instances refer to "force her". That is 'rape', cut and dry. From the NIV:

Good for the NIV, which a lot of Christians do not follow, as any company can translate the KJV into their own type of "NIV:"

NLT -doesn't use rape
ESV -does'nt use rape
NASB -uses rape
HCSB -uses rape

etc etc. Most of us continue to follow what the early Christians read.
FaustianJustice
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3/25/2015 2:35:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 2:29:20 AM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/25/2015 1:39:45 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
... I copied and pasted the verses in question from the link provided. Both instances refer to "force her". That is 'rape', cut and dry. From the NIV:

Good for the NIV, which a lot of Christians do not follow, as any company can translate the KJV into their own type of "NIV:"

NLT -doesn't use rape
ESV -does'nt use rape
NASB -uses rape
HCSB -uses rape

etc etc. Most of us continue to follow what the early Christians read.

... so you speak Greek? Aramaic? Hebrew? Latin?

Or can anyone translate something into anything, and its Gospel to some one?

"23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
"
KJV.

Bold, to me, indicates force. There is plenty of other Biblical parsing and phrasing that doesn't indicate force that could be used, but, as I mentioned...
Greek, Latin, Aramaic, Hebrew, and probably a host of other dialects and languages in between.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Excalibur
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3/25/2015 2:38:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 2:35:52 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
Bold, to me, indicates force. There is plenty of other Biblical parsing and phrasing that doesn't indicate force that could be used, but, as I mentioned...
Greek, Latin, Aramaic, Hebrew, and probably a host of other dialects and languages in between.

"There is plenty of other Biblical parsing and phrasing that doesn't indicate force that could be used"

"Bold, to me, indicates force."

Then you agree with the NIV, that doesn't change the KJV, which was translated as it was written.
FaustianJustice
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3/25/2015 3:28:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 2:38:27 AM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/25/2015 2:35:52 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
Bold, to me, indicates force. There is plenty of other Biblical parsing and phrasing that doesn't indicate force that could be used, but, as I mentioned...
Greek, Latin, Aramaic, Hebrew, and probably a host of other dialects and languages in between.

"There is plenty of other Biblical parsing and phrasing that doesn't indicate force that could be used"

"Bold, to me, indicates force."

Then you agree with the NIV, that doesn't change the KJV, which was translated as it was written.

Translated as it was written from X number of other sources in X number of other languages. In any case, the NIV not withstanding, if some one makes use of that variety of verbiage, that indicates force! It takes a bit of serious mental gymnastics to convince oneself its a consensual arrangement, but I find such a tumbling routine is expected when discussing the Bible, doubly so with translations and versions.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Excalibur
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3/25/2015 3:52:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 3:28:29 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
Translated as it was written from X number of other sources in X number of other languages. In any case, the NIV not withstanding, if some one makes use of that variety of verbiage, that indicates force! It takes a bit of serious mental gymnastics to convince oneself its a consensual arrangement, but I find such a tumbling routine is expected when discussing the Bible, doubly so with translations and versions.

It's pretty clear that you do not know how to read. Let's try this one more time, and this time, be sure to read it slowly. I'll also make sure to bold it for you. I hope that helps.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 "If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you."

1. He met her in the city (went to see her)
2. She did not cry about it (she cheated and had no remorse for her actions)

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days."

1. She is not married (virgin)
2. someone caught them together (they were found, now they must be married)

I also noticed that you tried to bold the "lay hold on her" as to imply force. I didn't respond to it before, as I figured you purposely were trying to test my intelligence, though now I see you are actually confused on the term, so I'll make this very easy for you.

original text
"Her mother is the lady of the house, And a good lady, and a wise and virtuous. I nursed her daughter that you talked withal. I tell you, he that can lay hold of her Shall have the chinks." -Romeo and Juliet

modern
"Indeed, young man, her mother is the lady of the house. She is a good, wise, and virtuous lady. I nursed her daughter, whom you were just talking to. Let me tell you, the man who marries her will become very wealthy." -Romeo and Juliet.

In other words, to lay hold of a virgin is to marry her.
FaustianJustice
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3/25/2015 5:02:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/25/2015 3:52:23 AM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/25/2015 3:28:29 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
Translated as it was written from X number of other sources in X number of other languages. In any case, the NIV not withstanding, if some one makes use of that variety of verbiage, that indicates force! It takes a bit of serious mental gymnastics to convince oneself its a consensual arrangement, but I find such a tumbling routine is expected when discussing the Bible, doubly so with translations and versions.

It's pretty clear that you do not know how to read.

Oh, no, my reading ability has been pretty obvious: its which version of what you want me to read that is in question.

Let's try this one more time, and this time, be sure to read it slowly. I'll also make sure to bold it for you. I hope that helps.

Then let me type out just as plainly for you: the inspired word of God that has "versions", preferred translation dependent, is essentially ordering what flavor of excrement you prefer to spread across crackers.

Now comes the time when you get to argue which flavor of excrement, according to you, is best, and why your Brand of Excrement (tm) is the 'Truth', as opposed to the leading competitor's brand of excrement.

You see, your sources are at odds. You just accused some one of cherry picking arguments, and you are cherry picking preferred versions, and poorly, I might add.

1. in a city its not a rape of a 'given' woman. Stone them both. (reason being is that some one should have heard her cry out if its a rape. No, really, that is the bench mark for rape, btw, 'who is within earshot'. Nice.)

2. in a field, its a rape (maybe!) of a 'given' woman. Stone just him. (because no one else was within ear shot, and she may or may not have called for help. Who knows. REAAAALLL nice.)

3. in a field its not a 'given' woman. It may or may not have been rape. Pay a fine, assuming of course the pair are found.

Now, I want to call attention to 3 things here:
1. woman viewed as owned property
2. woman viewed as owned property
3. woman viewed NOT as owned property yet, just pay the fine to own her.

Lastly...
"lay hold on" means a variety of things, seizing and claiming are part of them. To take by force, or to take for one's self are other parts. Much in your R and J dialogue, claiming her for your own gets you lots of $$$$. Hardly sounds like an agreement to sex when framed in such a way, eh?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...