Total Posts:81|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Challenge to all atheists:

Floid
Posts: 751
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2010 4:53:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

What does just and fair have to do with anything?
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2010 7:43:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

a powerful otherwordly being which can manipulate the fabric of reality "creates" this plane of existence...

too bad there's no reason to think so though.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2010 7:48:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

Why does it have to be fair and just?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
badger
Posts: 11,793
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2010 7:56:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

god creating other gods of equal everything.
signature
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2010 8:14:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

God creates a universe imbued with 'moral laws'. These moral laws are similar to the physical laws that govern this universe. They govern the universe such that misfortune is always brought upon evil people and fortune upon good people. In time, this would lead to humanity becoming a species of extremely moral beings since wrongdoing would always be tangibly and promptly punished and rightdoing would always be rewarded. Most people would gain entrance to heaven, and those that don't would be annihilated (or not allowed to be born in the first place)

This as opposed to creating a race of beings and allowing hugely varying religious beliefs to crop up everywhere; then eternally punishing people who don't correctly guess the correct religion.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2010 9:41:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

God creates the universe, and leaves it alone. Forever.
Floid
Posts: 751
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2010 1:46:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

My original question was never answered but I will give this a try...

"A creation scenario for humans that is fair"

Due to random mutations, a branch occurs in other life forms that forms the evolutionary path of homosapiens. That is the fairest possible scenario as it depended completely on chance.

"A creation scenario that is just"

Natural selection provides the driving force that fuels the evolutionary path of homosapiens so that the strongest and best adapted at survival and reproduction dominated the path. Even though I would argue that the idea of "just" is a human creation and therefore doesn't really have anything to do with this scenario, one could say this system is the ultimate justice because it averages out to judge survival soley based on fitness. It is incapable of being "unjust" by definition.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2010 1:53:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

The Universe expands from a singularity point of energy without a celestial dictator floating in the sky, flooding the earth, and turning women into pillars of salt.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2010 2:36:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
We each get our own spacetime plane (what multiverse theorists call a "universe"), to do whatever we want with except force sentience into it. If two of these new "god-humans" agree, one can visit the spacetime plane of another. Total free will, total freedom. Whatever they create or contract to visit, that's what they live with :P
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/22/2010 2:39:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 7:48:06 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

Why does it have to be fair and just?

I'm assuming he's proposing the challenge as a response to the Problem of Evil?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2010 3:07:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 7:56:17 AM, badger wrote:
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

god creating other gods of equal everything.

Sounds like a narcissistic nightmare.. like being lost in a hall of mirrors for eternity.
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2010 3:09:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 8:14:31 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

God creates a universe imbued with 'moral laws'. These moral laws are similar to the physical laws that govern this universe. They govern the universe such that misfortune is always brought upon evil people and fortune upon good people. In time, this would lead to humanity becoming a species of extremely moral beings since wrongdoing would always be tangibly and promptly punished and rightdoing would always be rewarded. Most people would gain entrance to heaven, and those that don't would be annihilated (or not allowed to be born in the first place)
Your proposal does not allow free-will and so fails.
This as opposed to creating a race of beings and allowing hugely varying religious beliefs to crop up everywhere; then eternally punishing people who don't correctly guess the correct religion.
There's no guessing, only blessing or the removal of blessing.
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2010 3:10:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 9:41:54 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

God creates the universe, and leaves it alone. Forever.

You call THAT fair? on Him?
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2010 3:12:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 1:46:58 PM, Floid wrote:
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

My original question was never answered but I will give this a try...

"A creation scenario for humans that is fair"

Due to random mutations, a branch occurs in other life forms that forms the evolutionary path of homosapiens. That is the fairest possible scenario as it depended completely on chance.
So millions of years of infant deaths and disease and wars and misery seems fair to you?

"A creation scenario that is just"

Natural selection provides the driving force that fuels the evolutionary path of homosapiens so that the strongest and best adapted at survival and reproduction dominated the path. Even though I would argue that the idea of "just" is a human creation and therefore doesn't really have anything to do with this scenario, one could say this system is the ultimate justice because it averages out to judge survival soley based on fitness. It is incapable of being "unjust" by definition.

So then you agree with Hitler?
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2010 3:14:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 2:36:23 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
We each get our own spacetime plane (what multiverse theorists call a "universe"), to do whatever we want with except force sentience into it. If two of these new "god-humans" agree, one can visit the spacetime plane of another. Total free will, total freedom. Whatever they create or contract to visit, that's what they live with :P

You have simply pushed the problem one step away, (like the multiverse idea) WHAT do you now do with YOUR universe that is fair and just?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Floid
Posts: 751
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2010 5:14:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
So millions of years of infant deaths and disease and wars and misery seems fair to you?

If you would like to take a look out of your window, that is the way of nature. Nature is fair by definition because it depends on chance and luck. The only possible way infant deaths, disease, wars, and misery can be unfair if for there to be some power out there able to observe and comprehend these problems and yet do nothing about it.

So in today's age we might say infant deaths due to starvation are unfair because if mankind made a concerted effort to feed all infants it could be done, yet we don't. But of course at the time of man's evolution, man was incapable of taking this action to artificially stop the acts of natural selection (which is what you are suggesting would be more fair).

Now of course, if there is some superior being to us out there, this does raise the question of why it is sitting around not doing anything about the above problems. Either it is incapable of action or does see the need to solve the problem.

So then you agree with Hitler?

I don't see what Hitler has to do with anything as he was not around and the time of "man's creation". Also, Hitler seemed to be a proponent of unnatural selection, by which he would decide through violence and force who would reproduce and who would not. I see no value to that idea. (nice strawman argument though)
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2010 8:31:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

1) God actualizes a world, better than this one, where there is no pain and suffering from things like cancer. The biosphere maintains itself on the grace of God despite any imbalances, and everyone worships this creator-God who managed to make a world better than the Christian God.

2) Evolution.

3) Aliens breed humans unbeknownst to them and seed them on planet Earth, leaving them to their own devices. Their starting position is by virtue of equality fair and just.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2010 10:30:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/23/2010 3:10:41 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/22/2010 9:41:54 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

God creates the universe, and leaves it alone. Forever.

You call THAT fair? on Him?

I dont understand what you mean by "On him".
Mason0612
Posts: 160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2010 3:21:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It's hard to say whether the creation of the universe was fair and just, since being fair and just are man-made qualities we have adopted since the formation of civilized societies. Before we had civilized societies, life was about staying alive at all costs. There were no morals or justice. When civilization developed, they established rules and culture which in turn created morals and ethics.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2010 10:24:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/23/2010 3:14:32 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/22/2010 2:36:23 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
We each get our own spacetime plane (what multiverse theorists call a "universe"), to do whatever we want with except force sentience into it. If two of these new "god-humans" agree, one can visit the spacetime plane of another. Total free will, total freedom. Whatever they create or contract to visit, that's what they live with :P

You have simply pushed the problem one step away, (like the multiverse idea) WHAT do you now do with YOUR universe that is fair and just?

Whatever I please. Since i can't stick other sentient people in it, no one has to bear the consequences of my actions, except me.
Justice by definition

(Fairness either means justice or means nothing).
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2010 11:15:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/23/2010 10:24:50 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/23/2010 3:14:32 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/22/2010 2:36:23 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
We each get our own spacetime plane (what multiverse theorists call a "universe"), to do whatever we want with except force sentience into it. If two of these new "god-humans" agree, one can visit the spacetime plane of another. Total free will, total freedom. Whatever they create or contract to visit, that's what they live with :P

You have simply pushed the problem one step away, (like the multiverse idea) WHAT do you now do with YOUR universe that is fair and just?

Whatever I please. Since i can't stick other sentient people in it, no one has to bear the consequences of my actions, except me.
Justice by definition

(Fairness either means justice or means nothing).

And Ragnar wins the thread!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2010 1:23:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
How can an Atheist propose a creation scenario when to do so would of necessity require it to be a work of fiction?

As a work of fiction the options for establishing what would result being fair and just would be wide open, and comparable to the content of a Harry Potter story.

To propose an evolution scenario where the coalition of material into the Solar System and all that followed on is old hat but as regards being fair and just, it is the absence of fairness and justice that results in an environment wherein Darwinian evolution takes place.

Fairness and justice is precisely what is NOT required.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2010 10:20:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/24/2010 1:23:01 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
How can an Atheist propose a creation scenario when to do so would of necessity require it to be a work of fiction?
It's not supposed to be anything else. It's a hypothetical to maintain the problem of evil against his assault.


As a work of fiction the options for establishing what would result being fair and just would be wide open, and comparable to the content of a Harry Potter story.
Not really. One can fill a work of fiction with a morality reflecting what one actually believes.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/26/2010 7:08:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/23/2010 5:14:50 AM, Floid wrote:
So millions of years of infant deaths and disease and wars and misery seems fair to you?

If you would like to take a look out of your window, that is the way of nature. Nature is fair by definition because it depends on chance and luck. The only possible way infant deaths, disease, wars, and misery can be unfair if for there to be some power out there able to observe and comprehend these problems and yet do nothing about it.

So in today's age we might say infant deaths due to starvation are unfair because if mankind made a concerted effort to feed all infants it could be done, yet we don't. But of course at the time of man's evolution, man was incapable of taking this action to artificially stop the acts of natural selection (which is what you are suggesting would be more fair).

Now of course, if there is some superior being to us out there, this does raise the question of why it is sitting around not doing anything about the above problems. Either it is incapable of action or does see the need to solve the problem.

The point is that YOU (as god) would have CHOSEN that; the Bible clearly teaches that WE have (and, as you rightly state, CONTINUE to) choose it: BIG difference.

So then you agree with Hitler?

I don't see what Hitler has to do with anything as he was not around and the time of "man's creation". Also, Hitler seemed to be a proponent of unnatural selection, by which he would decide through violence and force who would reproduce and who would not. I see no value to that idea. (nice strawman argument though)

The strongest survive was central to Nazi propaganda AND to evolutionary (YOUR god-plan) teaching.
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/26/2010 7:11:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/23/2010 8:31:41 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

1) God actualizes a world, better than this one, where there is no pain and suffering from things like cancer. The biosphere maintains itself on the grace of God despite any imbalances, and everyone worships this creator-God who managed to make a world better than the Christian God.

Does man have ANY choice about this?

2) Evolution.

So death, disease, despair etc etc..

3) Aliens breed humans unbeknownst to them and seed them on planet Earth, leaving them to their own devices. Their starting position is by virtue of equality fair and just.

Leaving them to formulate OPPOSING views on their origins which naturally lead to disputes, wars and debate forums etc etc..
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/26/2010 7:15:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/23/2010 10:30:12 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/23/2010 3:10:41 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/22/2010 9:41:54 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

God creates the universe, and leaves it alone. Forever.

You call THAT fair? on Him?

I dont understand what you mean by "On him".

You paint a masterpiece that surpasses the Mona Lisa or any Piscasso painted.. it is then taken from you and sold and resold; you get NONE of the profits..
People invent numerous origin stories for the painting; NONE of which include you..

Is THIS fair on you?
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/26/2010 7:17:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/23/2010 3:21:19 PM, Mason0612 wrote:
It's hard to say whether the creation of the universe was fair and just, since being fair and just are man-made qualities we have adopted since the formation of civilized societies. Before we had civilized societies, life was about staying alive at all costs. There were no morals or justice. When civilization developed, they established rules and culture which in turn created morals and ethics.

Begging the question; you are ASSUMING (making an AS$ out of U and ME) that evolution is true.
The Cross.. the Cross.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/26/2010 7:19:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/26/2010 7:15:04 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/23/2010 10:30:12 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/23/2010 3:10:41 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/22/2010 9:41:54 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/22/2010 4:05:57 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Propose a creation scenario for humans that is fair and just.

God creates the universe, and leaves it alone. Forever.

You call THAT fair? on Him?

I dont understand what you mean by "On him".

You paint a masterpiece that surpasses the Mona Lisa or any Piscasso painted.. it is then taken from you and sold and resold; you get NONE of the profits..
People invent numerous origin stories for the painting; NONE of which include you..

Is THIS fair on you?

This is presuming the Universe is artificial.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.