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A challenge to believers: 2.

Excalibur
Posts: 170
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3/30/2015 7:40:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Madcornishbiker has brought up a point retaining to my first "Challenge to believers" post. The word virgin, it would seem, was used by everyone as not to describe something unused, but as a word solely pertaining to a women that had not had intercourse. The correct answer was two. The young woman Mary and the tomb of which He died and rose in, were virgins, as both were unused. So, in light of the fact that I cannot hold it against anyone for not getting it correct, I thought I would make another. Still just as simple.

Challenge: Did Abraham accept the fact that God was forcing him to sacrifice His son Isaac based on his faith to God, or did Abraham know that God would intervene and was therefore going along with it to test God's righteousness?

Answer must be shown.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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3/30/2015 8:33:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Mary must have had intercourse or she wouldn't have produced a child. IVF was unavailable in those far off days.

Even if Abraham had expected a deity to stop him killing his son, did he impart that knowledge to the poor terrified proposed sacrifice?
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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3/30/2015 8:55:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/30/2015 7:40:15 AM, Excalibur wrote:
Madcornishbiker has brought up a point retaining to my first "Challenge to believers" post. The word virgin, it would seem, was used by everyone as not to describe something unused, but as a word solely pertaining to a women that had not had intercourse. The correct answer was two. The young woman Mary and the tomb of which He died and rose in, were virgins, as both were unused. So, in light of the fact that I cannot hold it against anyone for not getting it correct, I thought I would make another. Still just as simple.

Challenge: Did Abraham accept the fact that God was forcing him to sacrifice His son Isaac based on his faith to God, or did Abraham know that God would intervene and was therefore going along with it to test God's righteousness?

Answer must be shown.

I would think to say that Abraham accepted the fact that God was forcing him to sacrifice his son Isaac. In Gen 22:10 it says "Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son." I think that would show he was really going to sacrifice his son and to make that verse say something other than what it seems to say I think you would also have to do some serious hermeneutical hula hooping. Furthermore, Abraham testing God's righteousness does not seem to fit the narrative really at all. Abraham has not trusted God to keep his promise all throughout the narrative and has tried to take it into his own hands. And now he is testing God's righteousness? Doesn't seem to fit. I could be wrong, but those are my initial thoughts.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,909
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3/30/2015 9:03:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/30/2015 8:33:26 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Mary must have had intercourse or she wouldn't have produced a child. IVF was unavailable in those far off days.

Even if Abraham had expected a deity to stop him killing his son, did he impart that knowledge to the poor terrified proposed sacrifice?

Even if IVF was available, and even if the child was born of caesarean section, the mother might have remained a virgin, but the child would still be a 100% human being, the biological son of the male sperm donor.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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3/30/2015 9:14:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/30/2015 9:03:42 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 3/30/2015 8:33:26 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Mary must have had intercourse or she wouldn't have produced a child. IVF was unavailable in those far off days.

Even if Abraham had expected a deity to stop him killing his son, did he impart that knowledge to the poor terrified proposed sacrifice?

Even if IVF was available, and even if the child was born of caesarean section, the mother might have remained a virgin, but the child would still be a 100% human being, the biological son of the male sperm donor.

But we are talking about Mary, who would not have had IVF or a caesarean, just good old sexual intercourse with a male of the species, and birth through the usual channel!
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/30/2015 12:53:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/30/2015 7:40:15 AM, Excalibur wrote:
Madcornishbiker has brought up a point retaining to my first "Challenge to believers" post. The word virgin, it would seem, was used by everyone as not to describe something unused, but as a word solely pertaining to a women that had not had intercourse. The correct answer was two. The young woman Mary and the tomb of which He died and rose in, were virgins, as both were unused. So, in light of the fact that I cannot hold it against anyone for not getting it correct, I thought I would make another. Still just as simple.

Challenge: Did Abraham accept the fact that God was forcing him to sacrifice His son Isaac based on his faith to God, or did Abraham know that God would intervene and was therefore going along with it to test God's righteousness?

Answer must be shown. : :

No man understands what "virgin" birth means. Only those born of God can understand it.
Excalibur
Posts: 170
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3/30/2015 5:35:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/30/2015 8:55:41 AM, stubs wrote:
I would think to say that Abraham accepted the fact that God was forcing him to sacrifice his son Isaac. In Gen 22:10 it says "Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son." I think that would show he was really going to sacrifice his son and to make that verse say something other than what it seems to say I think you would also have to do some serious hermeneutical hula hooping. Furthermore, Abraham testing God's righteousness does not seem to fit the narrative really at all. Abraham has not trusted God to keep his promise all throughout the narrative and has tried to take it into his own hands. And now he is testing God's righteousness? Doesn't seem to fit. I could be wrong, but those are my initial thoughts.

You at least gave it a try.

Abraham knew that God would intervene.

Genesis 22:5 "And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the donkey; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you."

(I had to change the KJV word to donkey as the post would not allow me to share this believing that I had cursed)

Here Abraham tells his servants that he and his son will go up the mountain in order to worship God, and they both will come back to them. He did not say:

"and I will come again to you."

Abraham knew that both he and his son would be worshiping God together, as that implies he knew another sacrifice would be given other than his son.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,909
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3/30/2015 5:47:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/30/2015 9:14:23 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 3/30/2015 9:03:42 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 3/30/2015 8:33:26 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Mary must have had intercourse or she wouldn't have produced a child. IVF was unavailable in those far off days.

Even if Abraham had expected a deity to stop him killing his son, did he impart that knowledge to the poor terrified proposed sacrifice?

Even if IVF was available, and even if the child was born of caesarean section, the mother might have remained a virgin, but the child would still be a 100% human being, the biological son of the male sperm donor.

But we are talking about Mary, who would not have had IVF or a caesarean, just good old sexual intercourse with a male of the species, and birth through the usual channel!

Correct! And this is precisely what the bible reveals. Luke 3: 23; reveals that Jesus was the biological son of Mary and her half brother Joseph, who were both sired by the one father, Alexander Helios=Heli.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/30/2015 9:13:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/30/2015 5:35:09 PM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/30/2015 8:55:41 AM, stubs wrote:
I would think to say that Abraham accepted the fact that God was forcing him to sacrifice his son Isaac. In Gen 22:10 it says "Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son." I think that would show he was really going to sacrifice his son and to make that verse say something other than what it seems to say I think you would also have to do some serious hermeneutical hula hooping. Furthermore, Abraham testing God's righteousness does not seem to fit the narrative really at all. Abraham has not trusted God to keep his promise all throughout the narrative and has tried to take it into his own hands. And now he is testing God's righteousness? Doesn't seem to fit. I could be wrong, but those are my initial thoughts.

You at least gave it a try.

Abraham knew that God would intervene.

Genesis 22:5 "And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the donkey; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you."

(I had to change the KJV word to donkey as the post would not allow me to share this believing that I had cursed)

Here Abraham tells his servants that he and his son will go up the mountain in order to worship God, and they both will come back to them. He did not say:

"and I will come again to you."

Abraham knew that both he and his son would be worshiping God together, as that implies he knew another sacrifice would be given other than his son. : :

None of us saints and prophets know in advance how God is going to humble us and use us for His purpose. It's very humbling to be one of His servants. None of God's people can understand this.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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4/2/2015 8:21:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/30/2015 5:35:09 PM, Excalibur wrote:
At 3/30/2015 8:55:41 AM, stubs wrote:
I would think to say that Abraham accepted the fact that God was forcing him to sacrifice his son Isaac. In Gen 22:10 it says "Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son." I think that would show he was really going to sacrifice his son and to make that verse say something other than what it seems to say I think you would also have to do some serious hermeneutical hula hooping. Furthermore, Abraham testing God's righteousness does not seem to fit the narrative really at all. Abraham has not trusted God to keep his promise all throughout the narrative and has tried to take it into his own hands. And now he is testing God's righteousness? Doesn't seem to fit. I could be wrong, but those are my initial thoughts.

You at least gave it a try.

Abraham knew that God would intervene.

Genesis 22:5 "And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the donkey; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you."

(I had to change the KJV word to donkey as the post would not allow me to share this believing that I had cursed)

Here Abraham tells his servants that he and his son will go up the mountain in order to worship God, and they both will come back to them. He did not say:

"and I will come again to you."

Abraham knew that both he and his son would be worshiping God together, as that implies he knew another sacrifice would be given other than his son.

That seems like a huge assumption. We would have to assume that Abraham is being truthful because he has lied over and over again throughout the narrative. We also can't assume he knew a sacrifice other than his son would be given. If we are to go along with that it is actually much more likely that he thought if he killed Isaac, God would raise him from the dead because of Isaac being the line of blessing through the covenant.
Excalibur
Posts: 170
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4/3/2015 2:22:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/2/2015 8:21:54 AM, stubs wrote:
That seems like a huge assumption. We would have to assume that Abraham is being truthful because he has lied over and over again throughout the narrative. We also can't assume he knew a sacrifice other than his son would be given. If we are to go along with that it is actually much more likely that he thought if he killed Isaac, God would raise him from the dead because of Isaac being the line of blessing through the covenant.

Lied over and over again? He lied once, and that was because he was scared of Abimelech. Isaac being the promis given by God is exactly why Abraham knew God would not kill him. He knew God would not lie to him.