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PGA
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4/3/2015 4:38:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You suggested picking three prophetic passages in order to debate my claim.

" Lets find some Biblical prophecy, then, and get to it! Rather than drown eachother in pages of text, how about ... 3 examples of prophecy and completion from you, then me, etc, which a post or two hashing out the details of each set in between?" - FaustianJustice

I listed them on the other thread. I will start with Daniel 9:24-27.

You can approach the topic in a number of ways. You can show how the prophecy did not come to pass as it was foretold, how it was written after the fact to make it appear that it was fulfilled or you can come up with other critiques. I'll leave that to you. If you dispute the historicity or the dating I expect you to provide your source material as to how you determine this and I will do the same.

Daniel 9:24-27New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."


The first thing I want to bring to your attention is that the text refers to "your people."
I want you to identify who these people are that the text is referring to.

The next thing I want to bring to your attention is the time frame of the passage in regards to what would be accomplished.

It says seventy weeks are determined for this people and that "from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks."

It says that "after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary"

So this will be the time of the Messiah's coming as prophesied about in the OT in numerous passages. After the Messiah's death the city and temple will be destroyed.

Now notice the conditions in the decree: " to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."

What is your understanding of these six points? What does "to finish transgression" relate to? How would God make an end of sin? What is your understanding of these six terms spoken of here?

So after the seventy weeks all these decrees will have come to pass. Notice "And its end will come with a flood..." which I believe refers to the Old Covenant's termination with the destruction of the city and sanctuary. Feel free to dispute this claim.

What I will attempt to show you is that logically these decrees and events cannot apply to a people after AD 70, that everything written was fulfilled at or before this time for the very reason that the covenant depended on a temple, priesthood and sacrifices, none of which were possible after AD 70.

(Out of time for now. Feel free to begin)

Peter
FaustianJustice
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4/4/2015 1:56:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I listed them on the other thread. I will start with Daniel 9:24-27.

You can approach the topic in a number of ways. You can show how the prophecy did not come to pass as it was foretold, how it was written after the fact to make it appear that it was fulfilled or you can come up with other critiques. I'll leave that to you. If you dispute the historicity or the dating I expect you to provide your source material as to how you determine this and I will do the same.

Daniel 9:24-27New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."


The first thing I want to bring to your attention is that the text refers to "your people."
I want you to identify who these people are that the text is referring to.

Well, for this part, that isn't my argument to make. "Your" people, in this instance, appears (were I to take an educated guess), to be those being prophecized too, that being the Jews in this instance. This came during an exile, it seems the prophecy is giving a time table for their return.

The next thing I want to bring to your attention is the time frame of the passage in regards to what would be accomplished.

It says seventy weeks are determined for this people and that "from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks."

So, a year of weeks/week of years for this part, right? Its not a literal week?

It says that "after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary"

Same question.

So this will be the time of the Messiah's coming as prophesied about in the OT in numerous passages. After the Messiah's death the city and temple will be destroyed.

No problem here.

Now notice the conditions in the decree: " to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."

What is your understanding of these six points? What does "to finish transgression" relate to? How would God make an end of sin? What is your understanding of these six terms spoken of here?

1... you got me. I have no idea. 2. Can't be done, as sin still exists, right? 3. This part I can say would be the 'apology' for previous sins. 4. Whatever is being anointed, or consecrated, etc, shall remain so. Permanently. 5. All previous prophecies of this subject matter shall be fulfilled, and no more made. 6. see 4.

So after the seventy weeks all these decrees will have come to pass. Notice "And its end will come with a flood..." which I believe refers to the Old Covenant's termination with the destruction of the city and sanctuary. Feel free to dispute this claim.

What I will attempt to show you is that logically these decrees and events cannot apply to a people after AD 70, that everything written was fulfilled at or before this time for the very reason that the covenant depended on a temple, priesthood and sacrifices, none of which were possible after AD 70.


(Out of time for now. Feel free to begin)

Peter

At your leisure, of course. To be fair, for this aspect, you don't need to ask -me- anything about what I think what means, I am taking you at your word that the time frame is accurate, and the like. If I am to assess anything, please, provide me what details you think they apply to.

Easy way of outlining it:
By _____________ to ______________.
Predicted on _____________________.
Regarding ___________________.
Completed by (time) ______________________.
Resolved by ______________________ action.

Historically, the above should be easily found post time of prophecy. In the current format, the prophecy in question would be easy:

By Angel Gabriel to Daniel.
Predicted on 3-4th century BCE.
Regarding Building the temple, Coming of the Messiah, Messiah's announcement that he is the Messiah, his death, and the destruction of Jerusalem post his death.
Completed by (time) 31ish ACE.
Resolved by the Anointed One having nothing (btw, who is this?) Crucifixion of Jesus (presumably) a week ish after his testimony, and the subsequent destruction of the temple.

Though I need to be honest, I have NO idea what the last verse could mean, to who, by who, from who....
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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4/4/2015 2:31:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
FJ, before discussing what constitutes a valid prophecy you need some rules. This may help:

http://www.debate.org...

If you don't establish some ground rules, PGA will be all over the shop. He lost the argument at the link provided very easily when held accountable to agreed criteria. Of course, he would never concede that. :-)
PGA
Posts: 4,032
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4/4/2015 10:18:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 2:31:25 AM, dee-em wrote:
FJ, before discussing what constitutes a valid prophecy you need some rules. This may help:

http://www.debate.org...

If you don't establish some ground rules, PGA will be all over the shop. He lost the argument at the link provided very easily when held accountable to agreed criteria. Of course, he would never concede that. :-)

I did not lose the argument. I lost the vote. Big difference. The people who voted have a very particular and biased view towards the Bible and funnel the information through that view. Are you going to tell me that Skepticalone rightly understood the audience of address in Matthew 24? He admitted in part to it being 1st century, up to a point, then somehow switched it to some distance generation to suit his needs. This is not what the text reveals and he has no justification for doing so if he pays attention to who is being addressed.

Peter
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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4/4/2015 10:39:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/3/2015 4:38:24 PM, PGA wrote:
You suggested picking three prophetic passages in order to debate my claim.

" Lets find some Biblical prophecy, then, and get to it! Rather than drown eachother in pages of text, how about ... 3 examples of prophecy and completion from you, then me, etc, which a post or two hashing out the details of each set in between?" - FaustianJustice

I listed them on the other thread. I will start with Daniel 9:24-27.

You can approach the topic in a number of ways. You can show how the prophecy did not come to pass as it was foretold, how it was written after the fact to make it appear that it was fulfilled or you can come up with other critiques. I'll leave that to you. If you dispute the historicity or the dating I expect you to provide your source material as to how you determine this and I will do the same.

Daniel 9:24-27New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."


The first thing I want to bring to your attention is that the text refers to "your people."
I want you to identify who these people are that the text is referring to.

The next thing I want to bring to your attention is the time frame of the passage in regards to what would be accomplished.

It says seventy weeks are determined for this people and that "from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks."

It says that "after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary"

So this will be the time of the Messiah's coming as prophesied about in the OT in numerous passages. After the Messiah's death the city and temple will be destroyed.


Sine you have seen fit to put this on a public forum I shall put in my twopennorth. Feel free to ignore it.

Now notice the conditions in the decree: " to finish the transgression,

There is only one way that this can be, and will be, acheived.

In the resurrection the dead will be brought back into bodies similar to Adam (or Eve), sinless bodies, they will then be taught, have time to practise and then be finally tested.

This can only take place after Armageddon, when Satan is imprisoned and thus not influencing humanity any more.

The final test, at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign, will then sort out any who have not held on to their sin-free state, by succumbing to Satan's wiles when he is released, briefly, as part of that test.

The failures will then be permanently destroyed along with Satan, and earth will once again be populated by sin and transgression free humans living eternally in eternal health and peace as was originally planned when we were first created.

to make an end of sin,

That can only have the same answer as above. Nothing else is possible.

to make atonement for iniquity,

to bring in everlasting righteousness,

and again.

to seal up vision and prophecy

One the final test has finished, and all the wicked have been destroyed, all prophecy will have been completely fulfilled and the "scrolls" can be sealed and put away.

and to anoint the most holy place."

The holy place will be the cleansed and restored earth, once the kingdom has been handed back to his father by Christ.

From that time on Jehovah will once again be able to deal with mankind directly, which brings an end to his "day of rest" from such dealings.

The last three chapters detail this and the results that are brought to the earth by it.


What is your understanding of these six points? What does "to finish transgression" relate to? How would God make an end of sin? What is your understanding of these six terms spoken of here?

So after the seventy weeks all these decrees will have come to pass. Notice "And its end will come with a flood..." which I believe refers to the Old Covenant's termination with the destruction of the city and sanctuary. Feel free to dispute this claim.

They have come to pass, by the end of those 70 weeks because, though they have not all been brought in, Christ's sacrifice has guaranteed them for when Satan's promised time is finally up.


What I will attempt to show you is that logically these decrees and events cannot apply to a people after AD 70, that everything written was fulfilled at or before this time for the very reason that the covenant depended on a temple, priesthood and sacrifices, none of which were possible after AD 70.

You can try, but it won't work, since Satan is still around and the resurrection has yet to begin.

I know you won't accept this, but in the circumstances it is only fair that the truth be told whether you are prepared to accept it or not.

As always, the truth is in front of you, accept it or reject it as you see fit.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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4/4/2015 10:48:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 10:18:15 AM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 2:31:25 AM, dee-em wrote:
FJ, before discussing what constitutes a valid prophecy you need some rules. This may help:

http://www.debate.org...

If you don't establish some ground rules, PGA will be all over the shop. He lost the argument at the link provided very easily when held accountable to agreed criteria. Of course, he would never concede that. :-)

I did not lose the argument. I lost the vote. Big difference. The people who voted have a very particular and biased view towards the Bible and funnel the information through that view. Are you going to tell me that Skepticalone rightly understood the audience of address in Matthew 24? He admitted in part to it being 1st century, up to a point, then somehow switched it to some distance generation to suit his needs. This is not what the text reveals and he has no justification for doing so if he pays attention to who is being addressed.

Peter

Well Peter, as far as God is concerned you always lose the argument.

Just because Christ was talking to his disciples doers not mean they were the only target audience.

As with everything that was recorded for us,w e are part of that target audience, and you seem determined to ignore that fact.

Why record something for future reference that was due to happen within the lifetime of those he spoke to? It would not be necessary.

No Peter, when Jesus spoke of "this generation"immediately after describing the signs he was indicating the generation which would see all of them, some of which applied pre-70CE, some of which are still happening today and so apply to this time period.

We may well be in that generation now, but we will not know for sure until all the sings have happened, and that has not occurred yet.

Again, Peter, I put the truth from God Christ and holy spirit in front of you. Accept it, or accept it not, that is your choice.

Having put the truth in front of you I am free from bloodguilt for you, and any who read what I post.

I have done my part as well as I know how, anything more is between you and Jehovah.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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4/4/2015 10:54:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/3/2015 4:38:24 PM, PGA wrote:
You suggested picking three prophetic passages in order to debate my claim.

" Lets find some Biblical prophecy, then, and get to it! Rather than drown eachother in pages of text, how about ... 3 examples of prophecy and completion from you, then me, etc, which a post or two hashing out the details of each set in between?" - FaustianJustice

I listed them on the other thread. I will start with Daniel 9:24-27.

You can approach the topic in a number of ways. You can show how the prophecy did not come to pass as it was foretold, how it was written after the fact to make it appear that it was fulfilled or you can come up with other critiques. I'll leave that to you. If you dispute the historicity or the dating I expect you to provide your source material as to how you determine this and I will do the same.

Daniel 9:24-27New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."


The first thing I want to bring to your attention is that the text refers to "your people."
I want you to identify who these people are that the text is referring to.

The next thing I want to bring to your attention is the time frame of the passage in regards to what would be accomplished.

It says seventy weeks are determined for this people and that "from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks."

It says that "after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary"

So this will be the time of the Messiah's coming as prophesied about in the OT in numerous passages. After the Messiah's death the city and temple will be destroyed.

Now notice the conditions in the decree: " to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."

What is your understanding of these six points? What does "to finish transgression" relate to? How would God make an end of sin? What is your understanding of these six terms spoken of here?

So after the seventy weeks all these decrees will have come to pass. Notice "And its end will come with a flood..." which I believe refers to the Old Covenant's termination with the destruction of the city and sanctuary. Feel free to dispute this claim.

What I will attempt to show you is that logically these decrees and events cannot apply to a people after AD 70, that everything written was fulfilled at or before this time for the very reason that the covenant depended on a temple, priesthood and sacrifices, none of which were possible after AD 70.

(Out of time for now. Feel free to begin)

Peter : :

Why don't you ask the TRUTH about His prophecies? None of My people understand them.
PGA
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4/4/2015 11:25:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 1:56:59 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
Daniel 9:24-27New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."


The first thing I want to bring to your attention is that the text refers to "your people."
I want you to identify who these people are that the text is referring to.

Well, for this part, that isn't my argument to make. "Your" people, in this instance, appears (were I to take an educated guess), to be those being prophecized too, that being the Jews in this instance. This came during an exile, it seems the prophecy is giving a time table for their return.

If you do not know who "your people" are then you are going to mess up the prophecy. The Bible is good in identifying its audience and you can do this by reading the context.

It is important to understand who is being addressed or anything can be read into the text that it does not disclose. Throughout the Book of Daniel there is constant reference to Daniel's people. The "your people" refers to Daniel's people, a holy people, a people who made a covenant with God. If you did not know who "your people" are all you had to do was read the context. These were a covenant people who Daniel was a part of.

There are so many important clues in the passage itself, like "your holy city" and the reference to the Messiah. Then the greater context starting in Daniel 9:1 and continuing is concerned with Daniel's people and their continuous breaking of their covenant with God. "Your people" refers to an Old Covenant people.

2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years....4 I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed and said, "Alas, O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and lovingkindness for those who love Him and keep His commandments, 5 we have sinned, committed iniquity, acted wickedly and rebelled, even turning aside from Your commandments and ordinances. 6 Moreover, we have not listened to Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings, our princes, our fathers and all the people of the land.

7 "Righteousness belongs to You, O Lord, but to us open shame, as it is this day"to the men of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those who are nearby and those who are far away in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of their unfaithful deeds which they have committed against You....we have sinned against You....for we have rebelled against Him; 10 nor have we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His teachings which He set before us through His servants the prophets. 11 Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him. 12 Thus He has confirmed His words which He had spoken against us and against our rulers who ruled us, to bring on us great calamity; for under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what was done to Jerusalem. 13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this calamity has come on us; yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our iniquity and giving attention to Your truth. 14 Therefore the Lord has kept the calamity in store and brought it on us; for the Lord our God is righteous with respect to all His deeds which He has done, but we have not obeyed His voice.

15 "And now, O Lord our God, who have brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand and have made a name for Yourself, as it is this day"we have sinned, we have been wicked. 16 O Lord, in accordance with all Your righteous acts, let now Your anger and Your wrath turn away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; for because of our sins and the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people have become a reproach to all those around us. 17 So now, our God, listen to the prayer of Your servant and to his supplications, and for Your sake, O Lord, let Your face shine on Your desolate sanctuary. 18 O my God, incline Your ear and hear! Open Your eyes and see our desolations and the city which is called by Your name; for we are not presenting our supplications before You on account of any merits of our own, but on account of Your great compassion. 19 O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name."
Gabriel Brings an Answer

20 Now while I was speaking and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God in behalf of the holy mountain of my God, 21 while I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. 22 He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, "O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding....

So I think it is safe to gather from the text that when capital 'Y' is used in context it refers to Your people being God's people, the people He made a covenant with, and when small 'y' is used it refers to Daniel's people. In the one context it refers to God's relationship with Israel and in the other it refers to Daniel's relationship with Israel. This is signified throughout the text I provided, which is the greater context of Daniel 9:24-27. There are many other indicators that it refers to this Old Covenant people such as by reference to those to whom God sent the prophets. The prophets were sent to warn this people of their breaking the covenant and to repent and turn back to God or He would send the curses agreed upon if they continued in their transgression.

If you want to understand the blessings and curses stipulated in the covenant then I would refer you to Deuteronomy 28-32. Without a sufficient understanding of the blessings and curses you miss much of the significance of what is going on.

Peter
PGA
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4/4/2015 11:28:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 10:54:33 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 4/3/2015 4:38:24 PM, PGA wrote:
You suggested picking three prophetic passages in order to debate my claim.

" Lets find some Biblical prophecy, then, and get to it! Rather than drown eachother in pages of text, how about ... 3 examples of prophecy and completion from you, then me, etc, which a post or two hashing out the details of each set in between?" - FaustianJustice

I listed them on the other thread. I will start with Daniel 9:24-27.

You can approach the topic in a number of ways. You can show how the prophecy did not come to pass as it was foretold, how it was written after the fact to make it appear that it was fulfilled or you can come up with other critiques. I'll leave that to you. If you dispute the historicity or the dating I expect you to provide your source material as to how you determine this and I will do the same.

Daniel 9:24-27New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."


The first thing I want to bring to your attention is that the text refers to "your people."
I want you to identify who these people are that the text is referring to.

The next thing I want to bring to your attention is the time frame of the passage in regards to what would be accomplished.

It says seventy weeks are determined for this people and that "from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks."

It says that "after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary"

So this will be the time of the Messiah's coming as prophesied about in the OT in numerous passages. After the Messiah's death the city and temple will be destroyed.

Now notice the conditions in the decree: " to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."

What is your understanding of these six points? What does "to finish transgression" relate to? How would God make an end of sin? What is your understanding of these six terms spoken of here?

So after the seventy weeks all these decrees will have come to pass. Notice "And its end will come with a flood..." which I believe refers to the Old Covenant's termination with the destruction of the city and sanctuary. Feel free to dispute this claim.

What I will attempt to show you is that logically these decrees and events cannot apply to a people after AD 70, that everything written was fulfilled at or before this time for the very reason that the covenant depended on a temple, priesthood and sacrifices, none of which were possible after AD 70.

(Out of time for now. Feel free to begin)

Peter : :

Why don't you ask the TRUTH about His prophecies? None of My people understand them.

Again, your word is insufficient in determining truth. By biblical definition you are a false prophet and you need counseling. My recommendation is that you seek help.

Peter
FaustianJustice
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4/4/2015 11:30:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
You know BoG is trying to derail, please don't answer.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
bornofgod
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4/4/2015 11:33:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 11:28:40 AM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 10:54:33 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 4/3/2015 4:38:24 PM, PGA wrote:
You suggested picking three prophetic passages in order to debate my claim.

" Lets find some Biblical prophecy, then, and get to it! Rather than drown eachother in pages of text, how about ... 3 examples of prophecy and completion from you, then me, etc, which a post or two hashing out the details of each set in between?" - FaustianJustice

I listed them on the other thread. I will start with Daniel 9:24-27.

You can approach the topic in a number of ways. You can show how the prophecy did not come to pass as it was foretold, how it was written after the fact to make it appear that it was fulfilled or you can come up with other critiques. I'll leave that to you. If you dispute the historicity or the dating I expect you to provide your source material as to how you determine this and I will do the same.

Daniel 9:24-27New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."


The first thing I want to bring to your attention is that the text refers to "your people."
I want you to identify who these people are that the text is referring to.

The next thing I want to bring to your attention is the time frame of the passage in regards to what would be accomplished.

It says seventy weeks are determined for this people and that "from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks."

It says that "after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary"

So this will be the time of the Messiah's coming as prophesied about in the OT in numerous passages. After the Messiah's death the city and temple will be destroyed.

Now notice the conditions in the decree: " to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."

What is your understanding of these six points? What does "to finish transgression" relate to? How would God make an end of sin? What is your understanding of these six terms spoken of here?

So after the seventy weeks all these decrees will have come to pass. Notice "And its end will come with a flood..." which I believe refers to the Old Covenant's termination with the destruction of the city and sanctuary. Feel free to dispute this claim.

What I will attempt to show you is that logically these decrees and events cannot apply to a people after AD 70, that everything written was fulfilled at or before this time for the very reason that the covenant depended on a temple, priesthood and sacrifices, none of which were possible after AD 70.

(Out of time for now. Feel free to begin)

Peter : :

Why don't you ask the TRUTH about His prophecies? None of My people understand them.

Again, your word is insufficient in determining truth. By biblical definition you are a false prophet and you need counseling. My recommendation is that you seek help.

Peter : :

ALL My people have been deceived by what they observe in their holy books.

2 Corinthians 3;
14: But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
15: Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds;
16: but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.
17: Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

John 5
37: And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen;
38: and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent.
39: You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;
40: yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

All us saints know how deceiving your own interpretations of the prophecies can be. We know because God had us all try interpret them without His knowledge before He began having us testify to His knowledge.
MadCornishBiker
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4/4/2015 11:44:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 11:30:36 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
You know BoG is trying to derail, please don't answer.

I had not thought of him doing that, but you could be right about it.
PGA
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4/4/2015 12:14:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 10:39:19 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/3/2015 4:38:24 PM, PGA wrote:
Daniel 9:24-27New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."


The first thing I want to bring to your attention is that the text refers to "your people."
I want you to identify who these people are that the text is referring to.

The next thing I want to bring to your attention is the time frame of the passage in regards to what would be accomplished.

It says seventy weeks are determined for this people and that "from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks."

It says that "after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary"

So this will be the time of the Messiah's coming as prophesied about in the OT in numerous passages. After the Messiah's death the city and temple will be destroyed.


Sine you have seen fit to put this on a public forum I shall put in my twopennorth. Feel free to ignore it.

Now notice the conditions in the decree: " to finish the transgression,

There is only one way that this can be, and will be, acheived.

It has already been achieved. You ignore the text to your own peril. You are so indoctrinated into WatchTower theology that you can't think straight. You ignore the text and the time indicators over and over and nobody can pull you out of your indoctrination because you don't have ears to hear or eyes to see or a mind to comprehend.

This prophecy has nothing to do with what will be achieved but about what has been achieved in AD 70.

Anyone else who is reading this please note how people like MCB and Bog replace the author's intended meaning time and time again with a bazaar esoteric and reader intended meaning every time. They replace what the text conveys with their own read in and subjective view point.


1) Daniel 9:24 "your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression

11 Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him.


If you bothered to read the greater context, MCB, perhaps you would not get yourself into such a twisted pickle.

To finish transgression applied to these people who had made a covenant with God and continued to break it until God, after sending prophets over and over again to warn them, brought curses upon them, 1st in the Babylonian captivity then in AD 70 with the judgment God brought upon this OT people at the hands of the Romans.

Daniel 9:11, for one, identifies who transgressed and in verse 9:24 Daniel is given a vision of a future time when God would finish this transgression forever by bringing an end to the Old Covenant and replacing it with a New Covenant. All this had to happen within the seventy week span and it did. Every one of the six points mentioned in verse 24 did.

In the resurrection the dead will be brought back into bodies similar to Adam (or Eve), sinless bodies, they will then be taught, have time to practise and then be finally tested.

Again, you fail to understand that this has taken place in regard to this people. Daniel 12 speaks of when this fulfillment would be, when the power of the holy people is shattered all this will have been completed (Daniel 12:7). Their power, the covenant they had with God, was completely shattered in AD 70. After that time these was no more temple, no more priesthood, no more animal sacrifice, no more feast days, no more genealogies. They were all gone. God dispersed this OT people throughout the Roman world as mention in His word and reiterated by Josephus for one.

Acts 3 says the restoration of all things would be upon Jesus' return which took place in AD 70.

19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. 22 Moses said, "The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brethren; to Him you shall give heed to everything He says to you. 23 And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people." 24 And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. 25 It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, "And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed." 26 For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."


Again, who did God send the prophets to if not to this OT people? The period between AD 30-70 was the generation that God was warning to repent before the coming judgment and they were an OT people. After AD 70 there was no more Old Covenant. If you think so then provide the temple, priesthood, and sacrificial system. You can't.

This can only take place after Armageddon, when Satan is imprisoned and thus not influencing humanity any more.

Happened.

The final test, at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign, will then sort out any who have not held on to their sin-free state, by succumbing to Satan's wiles when he is released, briefly, as part of that test.

Happened. Annanicole has been through the significance of the 1,000 years with you before. Your indoctrination will not let you understand that it was a figurative time span of 40 years.

The failures will then be permanently destroyed along with Satan, and earth will once again be populated by sin and transgression free humans living eternally in eternal health and peace as was originally planned when we were first created.

There is extremely good biblical reason to believe Satan is already destroyed yet his influence is still felt.

Peter
PGA
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4/4/2015 12:19:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 11:30:36 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
You know BoG is trying to derail, please don't answer.

Yeah, his same old games. Claiming to be God's only saint and current spokesman on earth and putting himself in the place of God, speaking in regard to the whole human race and making his meaning the only true meaning. I will ignore his future comments on this thread unless he has something significant to say regarding the said topic, our three prophesies which started with Daniel 9:24-27.

I'll get back to our discussion later. I have some errands to complete shortly.

Peter
bornofgod
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4/4/2015 12:22:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 11:30:36 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
You know BoG is trying to derail, please don't answer. : :

I wasn't derailing this thread. I understand the prophecies of Daniel that no man can interpret.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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4/4/2015 12:32:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 12:14:05 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 10:39:19 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


There is only one way that this can be, and will be, acheived.

It has already been achieved. You ignore the text to your own peril. You are so indoctrinated into WatchTower theology that you can't think straight. You ignore the text and the time indicators over and over and nobody can pull you out of your indoctrination because you don't have ears to hear or eyes to see or a mind to comprehend.

"Watchtower Theology" does not affect my understanding, only scripture and holy spirit are allowed to do that. Whilst it is true that I find them nearer to the truth than anyone else, I arrive at that opinion only after prayerful study of scripture with the Aid of holy spirit.

I do not even trust them fully, only God, Christ and holy spirit.

No I do not ignore anything Peter it is you who does. You ignore so much.

You ignore all the things which make your understanding of the text absolutely impossible.

Especially the fact that so much of Matthew 24 is still happening today.

This prophecy has nothing to do with what will be achieved but about what has been achieved in AD 70.

Anyone else who is reading this please note how people like MCB and Bog replace the author's intended meaning time and time again with a bazaar esoteric and reader intended meaning every time. They replace what the text conveys with their own read in and subjective view point.

I never replace the authors intended meaning at all. Peter, I leave doing that to you.


1) Daniel 9:24 "your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression

11 Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him.


If you bothered to read the greater context, MCB, perhaps you would not get yourself into such a twisted pickle.

It is because I do read the greater context, and the parts of that which you choose to ignore that I do not get in any twist, thanks to Jehovah and his son.


To finish transgression applied to these people who had made a covenant with God and continued to break it until God, after sending prophets over and over again to warn them, brought curses upon them, 1st in the Babylonian captivity then in AD 70 with the judgment God brought upon this OT people at the hands of the Romans.


Daniel 9:11, for one, identifies who transgressed and in verse 9:24 Daniel is given a vision of a future time when God would finish this transgression forever by bringing an end to the Old Covenant and replacing it with a New Covenant. All this had to happen within the seventy week span and it did. Every one of the six points mentioned in verse 24 did.

In the resurrection the dead will be brought back into bodies similar to Adam (or Eve), sinless bodies, they will then be taught, have time to practise and then be finally tested.

Again, you fail to understand that this has taken place in regard to this people. Daniel 12 speaks of when this fulfillment would be, when the power of the holy people is shattered all this will have been completed (Daniel 12:7). Their power, the covenant they had with God, was completely shattered in AD 70. After that time these was no more temple, no more priesthood, no more animal sacrifice, no more feast days, no more genealogies. They were all gone. God dispersed this OT people throughout the Roman world as mention in His word and reiterated by Josephus for one.

Acts 3 says the restoration of all things would be upon Jesus' return which took place in AD 70.

19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. 22 Moses said, "The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brethren; to Him you shall give heed to everything He says to you. 23 And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people." 24 And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. 25 It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, "And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed." 26 For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."


Again, who did God send the prophets to if not to this OT people? The period between AD 30-70 was the generation that God was warning to repent before the coming judgment and they were an OT people. After AD 70 there was no more Old Covenant. If you think so then provide the temple, priesthood, and sacrificial system. You can't.

This can only take place after Armageddon, when Satan is imprisoned and thus not influencing humanity any more.

Happened.

The final test, at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign, will then sort out any who have not held on to their sin-free state, by succumbing to Satan's wiles when he is released, briefly, as part of that test.

Happened. Annanicole has been through the significance of the 1,000 years with you before. Your indoctrination will not let you understand that it was a figurative time span of 40 years.

The failures will then be permanently destroyed along with Satan, and earth will once again be populated by sin and transgression free humans living eternally in eternal health and peace as was originally planned when we were first created.

There is extremely good biblical reason to believe Sa

No Peter, there is not one truly scriptural reason to believe that Satan is as yet imprisoned, let alone destroyed. The time Satan has been allotted to prove his case has about 900 years left to run.

However Armageddon, the resurrection, training and practice, as well as the final test, have to come before he can be destroyed since he has to have a chance to prove his case in circumstances that will not be possible until then.

True justice demands this.

Armageddon will rid the whole earth of every effect of Satan, including false teachings such as yours.

That is the whole purpose of Armageddon.

You spend too much time considering the false words of Apostate men.

It is still true that you need to go right back to basics, because, you will not get your understandings straight until you do.

As part of my service to Jehovah and his son, I shall continue to put the truth from scripture in front of your eyes in the hope that one day Jehovah will open them and remove Satan's veil so that you may become a true believer in the Good News that Christ and the Apostles taught.
PGA
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4/4/2015 12:34:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 11:33:59 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 4/4/2015 11:28:40 AM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 10:54:33 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 4/3/2015 4:38:24 PM, PGA wrote:
You suggested picking three prophetic passages in order to debate my claim.

" Lets find some Biblical prophecy, then, and get to it! Rather than drown eachother in pages of text, how about ... 3 examples of prophecy and completion from you, then me, etc, which a post or two hashing out the details of each set in between?" - FaustianJustice

I listed them on the other thread. I will start with Daniel 9:24-27.

You can approach the topic in a number of ways. You can show how the prophecy did not come to pass as it was foretold, how it was written after the fact to make it appear that it was fulfilled or you can come up with other critiques. I'll leave that to you. If you dispute the historicity or the dating I expect you to provide your source material as to how you determine this and I will do the same.

Daniel 9:24-27New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."


The first thing I want to bring to your attention is that the text refers to "your people."
I want you to identify who these people are that the text is referring to.

The next thing I want to bring to your attention is the time frame of the passage in regards to what would be accomplished.

It says seventy weeks are determined for this people and that "from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks."

It says that "after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary"

So this will be the time of the Messiah's coming as prophesied about in the OT in numerous passages. After the Messiah's death the city and temple will be destroyed.

Now notice the conditions in the decree: " to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."

What is your understanding of these six points? What does "to finish transgression" relate to? How would God make an end of sin? What is your understanding of these six terms spoken of here?

So after the seventy weeks all these decrees will have come to pass. Notice "And its end will come with a flood..." which I believe refers to the Old Covenant's termination with the destruction of the city and sanctuary. Feel free to dispute this claim.

What I will attempt to show you is that logically these decrees and events cannot apply to a people after AD 70, that everything written was fulfilled at or before this time for the very reason that the covenant depended on a temple, priesthood and sacrifices, none of which were possible after AD 70.

(Out of time for now. Feel free to begin)

Peter : :

Why don't you ask the TRUTH about His prophecies? None of My people understand them.

Again, your word is insufficient in determining truth. By biblical definition you are a false prophet and you need counseling. My recommendation is that you seek help.

Peter : :

ALL My people have been deceived by what they observe in their holy books.

2 Corinthians 3;
14: But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
15: Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds;
16: but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.
17: Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

John 5
37: And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen;
38: and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent.
39: You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;
40: yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

All us saints know how deceiving your own interpretations of the prophecies can be. We know because God had us all try interpret them without His knowledge before He began having us testify to His knowledge.

Put these words in the context and to the audience they were written to, the church of Corinth and the Jewish audience of John 5:37-40, before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 and stop trying to pull verses out of context to make it seem that you are the one to whom they primarily address and the only one who can make sense of them. The fact is that you have a habit of applying them to yourself when convenient, the same thing MCB does. You constantly ignore the content, time frame and significance of historical background and specific audience relevance. They discuss or address an OT people who is blinded to the New Covenant that Jesus made with His blood sacrifice, His life, and who will shortly be judged by that covenant before God completely destroys it in AD 70 by bringing its curses upon this OT people.

Sorry, but I will not respond to any more of your posts on this thread unless you can tie them into the context of the three prophetic passages we are discussing, starting with Daniel 9:24-27.

As FraustianJustice has pointed out, your opinion has no relevance to the subject at hand. You just pull verses out of the Bible and make them apply to you and your mission - your own followers - the blind leading the blind.

Peter
bornofgod
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4/4/2015 12:35:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 12:19:44 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 11:30:36 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
You know BoG is trying to derail, please don't answer.

Yeah, his same old games. Claiming to be God's only saint and current spokesman on earth and putting himself in the place of God, speaking in regard to the whole human race and making his meaning the only true meaning. I will ignore his future comments on this thread unless he has something significant to say regarding the said topic, our three prophesies which started with Daniel 9:24-27.

I'll get back to our discussion later. I have some errands to complete shortly.

Peter : :

You have no idea who I AM, Peter.
bornofgod
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4/4/2015 12:38:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 12:34:16 PM, PGA wrote:

Put these words in the context and to the audience they were written to, the church of Corinth and the Jewish audience of John 5:37-40, before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 and stop trying to pull verses out of context to make it seem that you are the one to whom they primarily address and the only one who can make sense of them. The fact is that you have a habit of applying them to yourself when convenient, the same thing MCB does. You constantly ignore the content, time frame and significance of historical background and specific audience relevance. They discuss or address an OT people who is blinded to the New Covenant that Jesus made with His blood sacrifice, His life, and who will shortly be judged by that covenant before God completely destroys it in AD 70 by bringing its curses upon this OT people.

Sorry, but I will not respond to any more of your posts on this thread unless you can tie them into the context of the three prophetic passages we are discussing, starting with Daniel 9:24-27.

As FraustianJustice has pointed out, your opinion has no relevance to the subject at hand. You just pull verses out of the Bible and make them apply to you and your mission - your own followers - the blind leading the blind.

Peter : :

We saints don't have to study history or other languages. All we do is testify to the knowledge of God and from that knowledge, we understand all the prophecies.

Here's what the first saint told the religious Jews who didn't believe the gospel he preached to them;

John 7
13: Yet for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him.
14: About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught.
15: The Jews marveled at it, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?"
16: So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me;
17: if any man's will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.
18: He who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but he who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.

Christians don't understand that God is the ONLY TEACHER that exists.
PGA
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4/4/2015 12:42:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 12:35:13 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 4/4/2015 12:19:44 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 11:30:36 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
You know BoG is trying to derail, please don't answer.

Yeah, his same old games. Claiming to be God's only saint and current spokesman on earth and putting himself in the place of God, speaking in regard to the whole human race and making his meaning the only true meaning. I will ignore his future comments on this thread unless he has something significant to say regarding the said topic, our three prophesies which started with Daniel 9:24-27.

I'll get back to our discussion later. I have some errands to complete shortly.

Peter : :

You have no idea who I AM, Peter.

You are a false prophet, a lost, misguided soul, who thinks God has spoken to him and no one else. You are not the Great I AM.

God's word is its own interpreter. It, His word, will prove you a liar time and time again. It will contradict much of what you have to say and in the very context that you provide most of the time. Keep the topic on subject or do not expect an answer.

Peter
bornofgod
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4/4/2015 12:47:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 12:42:04 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 12:35:13 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 4/4/2015 12:19:44 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 11:30:36 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
You know BoG is trying to derail, please don't answer.

Yeah, his same old games. Claiming to be God's only saint and current spokesman on earth and putting himself in the place of God, speaking in regard to the whole human race and making his meaning the only true meaning. I will ignore his future comments on this thread unless he has something significant to say regarding the said topic, our three prophesies which started with Daniel 9:24-27.

I'll get back to our discussion later. I have some errands to complete shortly.

Peter : :

You have no idea who I AM, Peter.

You are a false prophet, a lost, misguided soul, who thinks God has spoken to him and no one else. You are not the Great I AM.

God's word is its own interpreter. It, His word, will prove you a liar time and time again. It will contradict much of what you have to say and in the very context that you provide most of the time. Keep the topic on subject or do not expect an answer.

Peter : :

There's a reason all you Christians keep arguing with each other over whose interpretations are correct. LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PGA
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4/4/2015 1:02:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 10:48:55 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/4/2015 10:18:15 AM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 2:31:25 AM, dee-em wrote:
FJ, before discussing what constitutes a valid prophecy you need some rules. This may help:

http://www.debate.org...

If you don't establish some ground rules, PGA will be all over the shop. He lost the argument at the link provided very easily when held accountable to agreed criteria. Of course, he would never concede that. :-)

I did not lose the argument. I lost the vote. Big difference. The people who voted have a very particular and biased view towards the Bible and funnel the information through that view. Are you going to tell me that Skepticalone rightly understood the audience of address in Matthew 24? He admitted in part to it being 1st century, up to a point, then somehow switched it to some distance generation to suit his needs. This is not what the text reveals and he has no justification for doing so if he pays attention to who is being addressed.

Peter

Well Peter, as far as God is concerned you always lose the argument.

Just because Christ was talking to his disciples doers not mean they were the only target audience.

As with everything that was recorded for us,w e are part of that target audience, and you seem determined to ignore that fact.

Again, the primary audience of address is an OT people. That is who Jesus came to and who is directly addressing concerning the prophecy and events that directly concern this people. What you do repeatedly is detach prophecy from its context and read into it things that is does not say to a people it is not primarily concerned with in context.

Why record something for future reference that was due to happen within the lifetime of those he spoke to? It would not be necessary.

The "future reference" was for the benefit of that generation.

Jesus constantly warned 'this generation' to flee from the coming wrath. You try to read that into your generation and apply all the curses and plagues to your time. You completely ignore what the text actually says and the time line it conveys by doing so.

Then you pawn your new interpretation off as the Word of God when in fact it completely contradicts what the Word actually says.

No Peter, when Jesus spoke of "this generation"immediately after describing the signs he was indicating the generation which would see all of them, some of which applied pre-70CE, some of which are still happening today and so apply to this time period.

Not at all. I can show from Scripture that every instance of 'this generation' when taken in context applied to that generation, not yours or some future generation.

We may well be in that generation now, but we will not know for sure until all the sings have happened, and that has not occurred yet.

Rubbish.

Again, Peter, I put the truth from God Christ and holy spirit in front of you. Accept it, or accept it not, that is your choice.

I accept it; I don't accept you or your interpreted words.

Having put the truth in front of you I am free from bloodguilt for you, and any who read what I post.

I have done my part as well as I know how, anything more is between you and Jehovah.

You are a false prophet and follow an 'organization' that is a false prophet, MCB.

Again, lets get back to the argument at hand, then you can show me how much in error you are.

Peter
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4/4/2015 1:07:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 1:02:07 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 10:48:55 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/4/2015 10:18:15 AM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 2:31:25 AM, dee-em wrote:
FJ, before discussing what constitutes a valid prophecy you need some rules. This may help:

http://www.debate.org...

If you don't establish some ground rules, PGA will be all over the shop. He lost the argument at the link provided very easily when held accountable to agreed criteria. Of course, he would never concede that. :-)

I did not lose the argument. I lost the vote. Big difference. The people who voted have a very particular and biased view towards the Bible and funnel the information through that view. Are you going to tell me that Skepticalone rightly understood the audience of address in Matthew 24? He admitted in part to it being 1st century, up to a point, then somehow switched it to some distance generation to suit his needs. This is not what the text reveals and he has no justification for doing so if he pays attention to who is being addressed.

Peter

Well Peter, as far as God is concerned you always lose the argument.

Just because Christ was talking to his disciples doers not mean they were the only target audience.

As with everything that was recorded for us,w e are part of that target audience, and you seem determined to ignore that fact.

Again, the primary audience of address is an OT people. That is who Jesus came to and who is directly addressing concerning the prophecy and events that directly concern this people. What you do repeatedly is detach prophecy from its context and read into it things that is does not say to a people it is not primarily concerned with in context.

Why record something for future reference that was due to happen within the lifetime of those he spoke to? It would not be necessary.

The "future reference" was for the benefit of that generation.

Jesus constantly warned 'this generation' to flee from the coming wrath. You try to read that into your generation and apply all the curses and plagues to your time. You completely ignore what the text actually says and the time line it conveys by doing so.

Then you pawn your new interpretation off as the Word of God when in fact it completely contradicts what the Word actually says.

No Peter, when Jesus spoke of "this generation"immediately after describing the signs he was indicating the generation which would see all of them, some of which applied pre-70CE, some of which are still happening today and so apply to this time period.

Not at all. I can show from Scripture that every instance of 'this generation' when taken in context applied to that generation, not yours or some future generation.

We may well be in that generation now, but we will not know for sure until all the sings have happened, and that has not occurred yet.

Rubbish.

Again, Peter, I put the truth from God Christ and holy spirit in front of you. Accept it, or accept it not, that is your choice.

I accept it; I don't accept you or your interpreted words.

Having put the truth in front of you I am free from bloodguilt for you, and any who read what I post.

I have done my part as well as I know how, anything more is between you and Jehovah.

You are a false prophet and follow an 'organization' that is a false prophet, MCB.

Again, lets get back to the argument at hand, then you can show me how much in error you are.

Peter

No Peter I am not, nor as far as I can discern are the JWs.

If have the witness of holy spirit on that.

If you accepted the truth, you would accept that. simple as.

Your choice, your loss.
MadCornishBiker
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4/4/2015 1:09:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 1:07:16 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


You are a false prophet and follow an 'organization' that is a false prophet, MCB.

Again, lets get back to the argument at hand, then you can show me how much in error you are.

Peter

The trouble is Peter that I only follow scripture, nothing else, and I certainly don't follow the Apostate teachers you have gathered to tickle your ears.
PGA
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4/4/2015 1:13:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 12:32:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/4/2015 12:14:05 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 10:39:19 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Anyone else who is reading this please note how people like MCB and Bog replace the author's intended meaning time and time again with a bazaar esoteric and reader intended meaning every time. They replace what the text conveys with their own read in and subjective view point.

I never replace the authors intended meaning at all. Peter, I leave doing that to you.


1) Daniel 9:24 "your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression

11 Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him.


If you bothered to read the greater context, MCB, perhaps you would not get yourself into such a twisted pickle.

It is because I do read the greater context, and the parts of that which you choose to ignore that I do not get in any twist, thanks to Jehovah and his son.


To finish transgression applied to these people who had made a covenant with God and continued to break it until God, after sending prophets over and over again to warn them, brought curses upon them, 1st in the Babylonian captivity then in AD 70 with the judgment God brought upon this OT people at the hands of the Romans.


Daniel 9:11, for one, identifies who transgressed and in verse 9:24 Daniel is given a vision of a future time when God would finish this transgression forever by bringing an end to the Old Covenant and replacing it with a New Covenant. All this had to happen within the seventy week span and it did. Every one of the six points mentioned in verse 24 did.

In the resurrection the dead will be brought back into bodies similar to Adam (or Eve), sinless bodies, they will then be taught, have time to practise and then be finally tested.

Again, you fail to understand that this has taken place in regard to this people. Daniel 12 speaks of when this fulfillment would be, when the power of the holy people is shattered all this will have been completed (Daniel 12:7). Their power, the covenant they had with God, was completely shattered in AD 70. After that time these was no more temple, no more priesthood, no more animal sacrifice, no more feast days, no more genealogies. They were all gone. God dispersed this OT people throughout the Roman world as mention in His word and reiterated by Josephus for one.

Acts 3 says the restoration of all things would be upon Jesus' return which took place in AD 70.

19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. 22 Moses said, "The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brethren; to Him you shall give heed to everything He says to you. 23 And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people." 24 And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. 25 It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, "And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed." 26 For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."


Again, who did God send the prophets to if not to this OT people? The period between AD 30-70 was the generation that God was warning to repent before the coming judgment and they were an OT people. After AD 70 there was no more Old Covenant. If you think so then provide the temple, priesthood, and sacrificial system. You can't.

This can only take place after Armageddon, when Satan is imprisoned and thus not influencing humanity any more.

Happened.

The final test, at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign, will then sort out any who have not held on to their sin-free state, by succumbing to Satan's wiles when he is released, briefly, as part of that test.

Happened. Annanicole has been through the significance of the 1,000 years with you before. Your indoctrination will not let you understand that it was a figurative time span of 40 years.

The failures will then be permanently destroyed along with Satan, and earth will once again be populated by sin and transgression free humans living eternally in eternal health and peace as was originally planned when we were first created.

There is extremely good biblical reason to believe Sa

No Peter, there is not one truly scriptural reason to believe that Satan is as yet imprisoned, let alone destroyed. The time Satan has been allotted to prove his case has about 900 years left to run.

I can supply a whole list of biblical reasons that could have us discussing for quite some time Satan and his defeat. Do you want to create a thread on this topic or shall I? It will have to be after I finish up here since my time is limited at the moment.

I am primarily trying to stay on topic for once and deal with the three prophetic verses I agreed to with FaustianJustice.

However Armageddon, the resurrection, training and practice, as well as the final test, have to come before he can be destroyed since he has to have a chance to prove his case in circumstances that will not be possible until then.

True justice demands this.

Armageddon will rid the whole earth of every effect of Satan, including false teachings such as yours.

That is the whole purpose of Armageddon.

You spend too much time considering the false words of Apostate men.

It is still true that you need to go right back to basics, because, you will not get your understandings straight until you do.

As part of my service to Jehovah and his son, I shall continue to put the truth from scripture in front of your eyes in the hope that one day Jehovah will open them and remove Satan's veil so that you may become a true believer in the Good News that Christ and the Apostles taught.

I feel that I need to open up a thread especially for you too MCB, so we don't get side tracked here. Pay attention to Daniel 9:24-27 and I will continue on with your previous post on it. I have already shown you that the transgression applied to Israel, an OT people by citing verse 11 of Daniel 9.
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4/4/2015 1:21:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 1:07:16 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/4/2015 1:02:07 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 10:48:55 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/4/2015 10:18:15 AM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 2:31:25 AM, dee-em wrote:
FJ, before discussing what constitutes a valid prophecy you need some rules. This may help:

http://www.debate.org...

If you don't establish some ground rules, PGA will be all over the shop. He lost the argument at the link provided very easily when held accountable to agreed criteria. Of course, he would never concede that. :-)

I did not lose the argument. I lost the vote. Big difference. The people who voted have a very particular and biased view towards the Bible and funnel the information through that view. Are you going to tell me that Skepticalone rightly understood the audience of address in Matthew 24? He admitted in part to it being 1st century, up to a point, then somehow switched it to some distance generation to suit his needs. This is not what the text reveals and he has no justification for doing so if he pays attention to who is being addressed.

Peter

Well Peter, as far as God is concerned you always lose the argument.

Just because Christ was talking to his disciples doers not mean they were the only target audience.

As with everything that was recorded for us,w e are part of that target audience, and you seem determined to ignore that fact.

Again, the primary audience of address is an OT people. That is who Jesus came to and who is directly addressing concerning the prophecy and events that directly concern this people. What you do repeatedly is detach prophecy from its context and read into it things that is does not say to a people it is not primarily concerned with in context.

Why record something for future reference that was due to happen within the lifetime of those he spoke to? It would not be necessary.

The "future reference" was for the benefit of that generation.

Jesus constantly warned 'this generation' to flee from the coming wrath. You try to read that into your generation and apply all the curses and plagues to your time. You completely ignore what the text actually says and the time line it conveys by doing so.

Then you pawn your new interpretation off as the Word of God when in fact it completely contradicts what the Word actually says.

No Peter, when Jesus spoke of "this generation"immediately after describing the signs he was indicating the generation which would see all of them, some of which applied pre-70CE, some of which are still happening today and so apply to this time period.

Not at all. I can show from Scripture that every instance of 'this generation' when taken in context applied to that generation, not yours or some future generation.

We may well be in that generation now, but we will not know for sure until all the sings have happened, and that has not occurred yet.

Rubbish.

Again, Peter, I put the truth from God Christ and holy spirit in front of you. Accept it, or accept it not, that is your choice.

I accept it; I don't accept you or your interpreted words.

Having put the truth in front of you I am free from bloodguilt for you, and any who read what I post.

I have done my part as well as I know how, anything more is between you and Jehovah.

You are a false prophet and follow an 'organization' that is a false prophet, MCB.

Again, lets get back to the argument at hand, then you can show me how much in error you are.

Peter

No Peter I am not, nor as far as I can discern are the JWs.

If have the witness of holy spirit on that.

If you accepted the truth, you would accept that. simple as.

Your choice, your loss.

Thanks for your opinion, now back to the topic at hand. I have already answered in part your claim about Daniel 9:24 with verse 11 and a yet future to the 1st century fulfillment. The people who are transgressing are identified in the greater context of Daniel 9. Are you denying this?

If you are then we need to examine the text in greater detail to see what the words actually tell us rather than what you read into them.

You seem to think that God cannot be understood unless you make Him so with your own reasoning. I challenge that reasoning with the text.

Peter
MadCornishBiker
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4/4/2015 1:40:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 1:21:52 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 1:07:16 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/4/2015 1:02:07 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 10:48:55 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/4/2015 10:18:15 AM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 2:31:25 AM, dee-em wrote:
FJ, before discussing what constitutes a valid prophecy you need some rules. This may help:

http://www.debate.org...

If you don't establish some ground rules, PGA will be all over the shop. He lost the argument at the link provided very easily when held accountable to agreed criteria. Of course, he would never concede that. :-)

I did not lose the argument. I lost the vote. Big difference. The people who voted have a very particular and biased view towards the Bible and funnel the information through that view. Are you going to tell me that Skepticalone rightly understood the audience of address in Matthew 24? He admitted in part to it being 1st century, up to a point, then somehow switched it to some distance generation to suit his needs. This is not what the text reveals and he has no justification for doing so if he pays attention to who is being addressed.

Peter

Well Peter, as far as God is concerned you always lose the argument.

Just because Christ was talking to his disciples doers not mean they were the only target audience.

As with everything that was recorded for us,w e are part of that target audience, and you seem determined to ignore that fact.

Again, the primary audience of address is an OT people. That is who Jesus came to and who is directly addressing concerning the prophecy and events that directly concern this people. What you do repeatedly is detach prophecy from its context and read into it things that is does not say to a people it is not primarily concerned with in context.

Why record something for future reference that was due to happen within the lifetime of those he spoke to? It would not be necessary.

The "future reference" was for the benefit of that generation.

Jesus constantly warned 'this generation' to flee from the coming wrath. You try to read that into your generation and apply all the curses and plagues to your time. You completely ignore what the text actually says and the time line it conveys by doing so.

Then you pawn your new interpretation off as the Word of God when in fact it completely contradicts what the Word actually says.

No Peter, when Jesus spoke of "this generation"immediately after describing the signs he was indicating the generation which would see all of them, some of which applied pre-70CE, some of which are still happening today and so apply to this time period.

Not at all. I can show from Scripture that every instance of 'this generation' when taken in context applied to that generation, not yours or some future generation.

We may well be in that generation now, but we will not know for sure until all the sings have happened, and that has not occurred yet.

Rubbish.

Again, Peter, I put the truth from God Christ and holy spirit in front of you. Accept it, or accept it not, that is your choice.

I accept it; I don't accept you or your interpreted words.

Having put the truth in front of you I am free from bloodguilt for you, and any who read what I post.

I have done my part as well as I know how, anything more is between you and Jehovah.

You are a false prophet and follow an 'organization' that is a false prophet, MCB.

Again, lets get back to the argument at hand, then you can show me how much in error you are.

Peter

No Peter I am not, nor as far as I can discern are the JWs.

If have the witness of holy spirit on that.

If you accepted the truth, you would accept that. simple as.

Your choice, your loss.

Thanks for your opinion, now back to the topic at hand. I have already answered in part your claim about Daniel 9:24 with verse 11 and a yet future to the 1st century fulfillment. The people who are transgressing are identified in the greater context of Daniel 9. Are you denying this?

If you are then we need to examine the text in greater detail to see what the words actually tell us rather than what you read into them.

You seem to think that God cannot be understood unless you make Him so with your own reasoning. I challenge that reasoning with the text.

Peter

It's not my opinion. It is god's as revealed through his word and holy spirit.

I am nothing more than a messenger.
annanicole
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4/4/2015 2:10:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 1:40:14 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/4/2015 1:21:52 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 1:07:16 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/4/2015 1:02:07 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 10:48:55 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/4/2015 10:18:15 AM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 2:31:25 AM, dee-em wrote:

It's not my opinion. It is god's as revealed through his word and holy spirit.


LOL
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
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4/4/2015 2:10:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 1:21:52 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 1:07:16 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Your choice, your loss.

Thanks for your opinion, now back to the topic at hand. I have already answered in part your claim about Daniel 9:24 with verse 11 and a yet future to the 1st century fulfillment. The people who are transgressing are identified in the greater context of Daniel 9. Are you denying this?

In a sense yes.

Obviously it applied to those alive at the time, and most especially to Judah, the last remnant of Jehovah's people.

However it also has application to all of humanity since all of humanity are God's people, and at the time Judah, as a whole, were no more faithful than any humans on earth and were only being tolerated to keep the line to the Messiah intact.


If you are then we need to examine the text in greater detail to see what the words actually tell us rather than what you read into them.

You seem to think that God cannot be understood unless you make Him so with your own reasoning. I challenge that reasoning with the text.

No, I have never felt that, nor do I feel as you do that God can only be understood using the reasoning of other humans.

I believe entirely, as scripture tells us, that we can only understand God's word by learning to understand God, hence John 17:3, and that is where you start on the road to error since you do not recognise either God or Christ for what they truly are.

Elevating Christ to the same level as his father is the same as lowering Jehovah to the same level as his son, and goes 100% against Isaiah 42:8 ASV(i) 8 I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images.

Either way you are giving God's glory to his son, that is not allowable.

That is why I say, and repeat, that you will not get not the right path until you get to know God and Christ for who and what they are. You also need to correct your understanding of holy spirit if you are to comply with John 4:23,24.

Anyway, to continue on the path of how to understand scripture.

Paul make it partially clear at 1 Corinthians 2:11-16, which I shall break down.

ASV(i) 11 For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God.

That shows that we need God's spirit to understand God's thinking.

12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in words which mans wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words. 14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

It is true that we cannot know more of God than is revealed in scripture, but that is a lot, for those prepared to dig beneath the surface of his actions on behalf of his people.

However, as Paul said, the thinking of the father is revealed in the son, who only taught what his father taught him, and did his father's will.

We do indeed have the mind of Christ, and through him the spitting image of the mind of God.

Also, we need God's wisdom,which is so much greater than the wisdom we learn, effectively at Satan's feet, when in the world. That means admitting to ourselves, and to God our shortcomings in that department, and pleading with God for his wisdom, which he promises to provide to those who truly trust him. James 1:5-8
ASV(i) 5 But if any of you lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing doubting: for he that doubteth is like the surge of the sea driven by the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive anything of the Lord; 8 a doubleminded man, unstable in all his ways.

I trust in God 100% and therefore he supplies me with his spirit and his wisdom at need.

In fact to doubt that he would is stupid in the extreme because it is in his own interests to do so, to enable such as me to give an answer to Satan's challenge in our case.

We also need to humble ourselves before him because he does not, cannot use those of us who think we are too wise to do things his way.

1 Corinthians 1:26-30
ASV(i) 26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong; 28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are: 29 that no flesh should glory before God. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:

Are you too proud to be considered, in the eyes of your peers, or even others on here, to be amongst those types Paul names?

I am not. That is why Annanicole calling me a Tard or you calling me a false prophet, or others calling me insane, does not bother me, because I care only what God and Christ think of me, and live only to please them, no-one else.
MadCornishBiker
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4/4/2015 2:11:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 2:10:14 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/4/2015 1:40:14 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/4/2015 1:21:52 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 1:07:16 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/4/2015 1:02:07 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 10:48:55 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/4/2015 10:18:15 AM, PGA wrote:
At 4/4/2015 2:31:25 AM, dee-em wrote:

It's not my opinion. It is god's as revealed through his word and holy spirit.


LOL

True whatever you think.