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Violence in the Bible is Hyperbole?

GeoLaureate8
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7/26/2010 2:32:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
PCP claimed that the violent verses in the Bible are hyperbole, but I don't find this convincing.

When the Bible says "you shall stone them with stones" what is that a hyperbole of? Throw sponges at them? Even still, a hyperbole would be immature.

And when God said in Genesis "every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth" does that mean he will give them a long mean lecture about being naughty?

At best the writings are superfluous and confusing and at the least, the hyperbolic interpretation becomes nonsensical.

Present your case.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
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"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tkubok
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7/26/2010 2:41:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/26/2010 2:32:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
PCP claimed that the violent verses in the Bible are hyperbole, but I don't find this convincing.

When the Bible says "you shall stone them with stones" what is that a hyperbole of? Throw sponges at them? Even still, a hyperbole would be immature.

And when God said in Genesis "every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth" does that mean he will give them a long mean lecture about being naughty?

At best the writings are superfluous and confusing and at the least, the hyperbolic interpretation becomes nonsensical.

Present your case.

Could you possibly enlighten me on what you mean by "Hyperboly"?
tkubok
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7/26/2010 2:41:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/26/2010 2:41:22 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 7/26/2010 2:32:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
PCP claimed that the violent verses in the Bible are hyperbole, but I don't find this convincing.

When the Bible says "you shall stone them with stones" what is that a hyperbole of? Throw sponges at them? Even still, a hyperbole would be immature.

And when God said in Genesis "every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth" does that mean he will give them a long mean lecture about being naughty?

At best the writings are superfluous and confusing and at the least, the hyperbolic interpretation becomes nonsensical.

Present your case.

Could you possibly enlighten me on what you mean by "Hyperbole"?

Typo Fix'd.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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7/26/2010 2:43:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/26/2010 2:41:52 PM, tkubok wrote:
Could you possibly enlighten me on what you mean by "Hyperbole"?

I think he means metaphorical.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
GeoLaureate8
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7/26/2010 2:50:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/26/2010 2:43:27 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 7/26/2010 2:41:52 PM, tkubok wrote:
Could you possibly enlighten me on what you mean by "Hyperbole"?

I think he means metaphorical.

No, I mean hyperbole. Lol.

It's an exaggeration.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tBoonePickens
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7/26/2010 2:54:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/26/2010 2:50:00 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
It's an exaggeration.

I know what hyperbole is, I just never heard the Bible referenced as a book of hyperboles before.

In that case, that would make God quite braggadocious!
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Kinesis
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7/26/2010 2:58:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
PCP is one of those people who could be spending their generous intellectual talents on more interesting pursuits than rationalising biblical intolerance and violence. It's quite depressing.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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7/26/2010 3:21:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/26/2010 2:32:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
PCP claimed that the violent verses in the Bible are hyperbole, but I don't find this convincing.

When the Bible says "you shall stone them with stones" what is that a hyperbole of? Throw sponges at them? Even still, a hyperbole would be immature.

And when God said in Genesis "every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth" does that mean he will give them a long mean lecture about being naughty?

At best the writings are superfluous and confusing and at the least, the hyperbolic interpretation becomes nonsensical.

Present your case.

Fail. I never claimed that all the violent verses in the bible were hyperbole.

I said the death penalty laws were. Challenge me to a debate on it.
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GeoLaureate8
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7/26/2010 3:35:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/26/2010 3:21:29 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/26/2010 2:32:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
PCP claimed that the violent verses in the Bible are hyperbole, but I don't find this convincing.

When the Bible says "you shall stone them with stones" what is that a hyperbole of? Throw sponges at them? Even still, a hyperbole would be immature.

And when God said in Genesis "every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth" does that mean he will give them a long mean lecture about being naughty?

At best the writings are superfluous and confusing and at the least, the hyperbolic interpretation becomes nonsensical.

Present your case.

Fail. I never claimed that all the violent verses in the bible were hyperbole.

So you acknowledge that parts of the Bible are actually and literally violent?

That's a huge concession.

I said the death penalty laws were.

So the death penalty laws are actually not death penalties? I don't get it.

Challenge me to a debate on it.

I just did. It's a forum debate. I can't be bothered with a time limit debate right now.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
popculturepooka
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7/26/2010 5:16:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/26/2010 3:35:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
So you acknowledge that parts of the Bible are actually and literally violent?

That's a huge concession.


Not really. There's a lot of descriptive violence in the Bible. That's different the God-ordained prescriptive violence.

So the death penalty laws are actually not death penalties? I don't get it.


Allright, even though I've already said this numerous times.

Let's take Deutoronomy, for example, (21:18-21) where it says: "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother... Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones."

Then let's look at similar case studies in the code of Hammurabi:

"192
If a son of a paramour or a prostitute say to his adoptive father or mother: "You are not my father, or my mother," his tongue shall be cut off.

193
If the son of a paramour or a prostitute desire his father's house, and desert his adoptive father and adoptive mother, and goes to his father's house, then shall his eye be put out.

195
If a son strike his father, his hands shall be hewn off."

Not, quit as "harsh" but similar.

It's worth noting that ancient Israel was part of the ANE (ancient near east) so they had MANY of the same cultural practices as their neighbors including literary conventions.

Those laws and commands throughout the OT have a similar structural parallel to other ANE judicial texts like the Code of Hammurabi.

In the ANE it was common to set out principles by referring to extreme, overboard examples. Obviously, the principle here seems to be respect your parents.

There was also a practice in the ANE called "ransoming" where when someone committed something that was deemed a serious crime they were to have been considered that they had forfeited their life (or hands, or tongue, or....) but that didn't mean that these were literally carried out. The law was there just to show the gravity of the crime. Instead they "ransomed" their life or whatever to the victim and recompensated them usually with money. That is what ANE legal practice was and that is the type of practice that ancient Israel operated in.

"J. J. Finkelstein has pointed out the absurdity of taking some of the Mesopotamian laws literally. He notes that LH §230 (cited above) could not be applied literally in the case of a builder who had no son. Even more absurd if applied literally is LH §218 which states that a physician whose patient dies in surgery or is blinded by surgery is to have his hand cut off. Finkelstein remarks that "it is inconceivable that any sane person in ancient Mesopotamia would have been willing to enter the surgeon's profession" if such a law were literally enforced. Finkelstein concludes that such laws were never meant to be complied with literally even when they were first drawn up, but that they were from the beginning hyperbolic, having more of an admonitory than a legal function, saying in effect, "Woe to contractors and physicians who because of negligence, greed, laziness, or any other reason endanger the life and limb of others." [1]

Look at this passage of Exodus, take careful note of what it actually says:

"29 If, however, the bull has had the habit of goring and the owner has been warned but has not kept it penned up and it kills a man or woman, the bull must be stoned and the owner also must be put to death. 30 However, if payment is demanded of him, he may redeem his life by paying whatever is demanded. "

That sounds like the ransom system, no?

Or another one in Kings:

"And as the king passed by, he cried unto the king: and he said, Thy servant went out into the midst of the battle; and, behold, a man turned aside, and brought a man unto me, and said, Keep this man: if by any means he be missing, then shall thy life be for his life, or else thou shalt pay a talent of silver."

Sounds like the ransom system, no?

Or how about Numbers 35:31:

"'Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death."

This wouldn't make sense if there wasn't already a ransom system in place. The author had to specifically point out ransom could not be accepted for the life of a murderer.

That's about all the detail I'm going into now. I have stuff to do.

Challenge me to a debate on it.

I just did. It's a forum debate. I can't be bothered with a time limit debate right now.

Why? It should be an easy win for you.

[1] http://faculty.gordon.edu...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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popculturepooka
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7/26/2010 5:22:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/26/2010 2:58:51 PM, Kinesis wrote:
PCP is one of those people who could be spending their generous intellectual talents on more interesting pursuits than rationalising biblical intolerance and violence. It's quite depressing.

How is it rationalization by actually bothering to look up what the heck the ransom system is?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
badger
Posts: 11,793
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7/26/2010 10:13:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/26/2010 5:16:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:

you're arguing for cultural inspiration over divine inspiration...
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DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/27/2010 2:45:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/26/2010 2:32:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
PCP claimed that the violent verses in the Bible are hyperbole, but I don't find this convincing.

When the Bible says "you shall stone them with stones" what is that a hyperbole of? Throw sponges at them? Even still, a hyperbole would be immature.

And when God said in Genesis "every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth" does that mean he will give them a long mean lecture about being naughty?

At best the writings are superfluous and confusing and at the least, the hyperbolic interpretation becomes nonsensical.

Present your case.

The harsh punishments for sin in the Bible are real enough but MUST be understood in the context of the covenant God made to the Jewish nation AND the context of the first 11 verses of John ch8: " Let he who is WITHOUT sin cast the first stone. "

Mercy without the context of punishment is nonsensical.

God is good, true and just.. humble yourself and all these things will become clear to you.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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7/27/2010 2:48:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/26/2010 2:43:27 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 7/26/2010 2:41:52 PM, tkubok wrote:
Could you possibly enlighten me on what you mean by "Hyperbole"?

I think he means metaphorical.

Wouldn't he have used a different word?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
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7/27/2010 2:53:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 2:48:49 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/26/2010 2:43:27 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 7/26/2010 2:41:52 PM, tkubok wrote:
Could you possibly enlighten me on what you mean by "Hyperbole"?

I think he means metaphorical.

Wouldn't he have used a different word?

No.
The Cross.. the Cross.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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7/27/2010 6:29:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 2:48:49 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/26/2010 2:43:27 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 7/26/2010 2:41:52 PM, tkubok wrote:
Could you possibly enlighten me on what you mean by "Hyperbole"?

I think he means metaphorical.

Wouldn't he have used a different word?

Yes. But he was so vague that we could not figure out what it was in reference to. Had he bothered to do so, he would not have received so many unrelated posts. Popculturepooka's second post makes it very clear what Geo was referring to. Details.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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7/27/2010 6:43:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 2:53:59 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/27/2010 2:48:49 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/26/2010 2:43:27 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 7/26/2010 2:41:52 PM, tkubok wrote:
Could you possibly enlighten me on what you mean by "Hyperbole"?

I think he means metaphorical.

Wouldn't he have used a different word?

No.

Righto.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
JustCallMeTarzan
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7/27/2010 7:07:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 2:45:56 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/26/2010 2:32:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
PCP claimed that the violent verses in the Bible are hyperbole, but I don't find this convincing.

When the Bible says "you shall stone them with stones" what is that a hyperbole of? Throw sponges at them? Even still, a hyperbole would be immature.

And when God said in Genesis "every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth" does that mean he will give them a long mean lecture about being naughty?

At best the writings are superfluous and confusing and at the least, the hyperbolic interpretation becomes nonsensical.

Present your case.

The harsh punishments for sin in the Bible are real enough but MUST be understood in the context of the covenant God made to the Jewish nation AND the context of the first 11 verses of John ch8: " Let he who is WITHOUT sin cast the first stone. "

Right, because for the hundreds of years these punishments had been around BEFORE Jesus came and gave this piece of wisdom, they still had to be contextualized.

Got a little problem there DAT.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/27/2010 7:08:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/26/2010 2:32:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
PCP claimed that the violent verses in the Bible are hyperbole:

Ah, right... Stoning people to death with stones is hyperbole, but talking snakes, talking donkeys, a man who is only strong through his hair, is the literal Word of God.

Mark me down as unconvinced too, Geo.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
popculturepooka
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7/27/2010 7:20:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 7:08:28 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 7/26/2010 2:32:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
PCP claimed that the violent verses in the Bible are hyperbole:

Ah, right... Stoning people to death with stones is hyperbole, but talking snakes, talking donkeys, a man who is only strong through his hair, is the literal Word of God.


...or you can produce an argument.

Mark me down as unconvinced too, Geo.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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7/27/2010 7:30:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/26/2010 5:22:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/26/2010 2:58:51 PM, Kinesis wrote:
PCP is one of those people who could be spending their generous intellectual talents on more interesting pursuits than rationalising biblical intolerance and violence. It's quite depressing.

How is it rationalization by actually bothering to look up what the heck the ransom system is?

Sorry, I believed him when he said you were addressing all the violent verses in the bible.
tBoonePickens
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7/27/2010 11:55:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
So God was a little pissed back in the day...so what? He was young back then, now He's older and more mature.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/27/2010 11:55:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ok so here's PCPs argument:

1. The passages in the Bible regarding death penalties were a ransom system where people were threatened with cruel and fatal punishment in order to squeeze money out of them.

Problem:

- Why would God make laws that scared people into giving up their money?
- What is the real punishment for law-breakers if they can't pay?
- If they can pay, criminals get no punishment if they have the money.
- Shouldnt the criminal know how the ransom system works? If so, there should be no need for an exaggerated threat of punishment if the criminal knows it's not going to actually happen.
- Cant God just say that rebelling against your parents is bad? If these peope believe the laws are from God, they should already be scared enough to obey an omnipotent being with the threat of stoning by humans.

- The Bible is culturally inspired.
- This doesn't vindicate all violence. God still committed global genocide which far surpasses any death penalty law.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Kinesis
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7/27/2010 12:13:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 11:55:58 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Ok so here's PCPs argument:

1. The passages in the Bible regarding death penalties were a ransom system where people were threatened with cruel and fatal punishment in order to squeeze money out of them.

Problem:

- Why would God make laws that scared people into giving up their money?
- What is the real punishment for law-breakers if they can't pay?
- If they can pay, criminals get no punishment if they have the money.
- Shouldnt the criminal know how the ransom system works? If so, there should be no need for an exaggerated threat of punishment if the criminal knows it's not going to actually happen.
- Cant God just say that rebelling against your parents is bad? If these peope believe the laws are from God, they should already be scared enough to obey an omnipotent being with the threat of stoning by humans.

- The Bible is culturally inspired.
- This doesn't vindicate all violence. God still committed global genocide which far surpasses any death penalty law.

I wondered that too. If the laws are just hyperbole, then surely they don't get carried out even when the 'ransom' can't be paid?
InsertNameHere
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7/27/2010 12:15:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Of course I could be wrong, but alot of this hyperbole stuff sounds like it's further attempts by Christians to cherry-pick only the stuff they like out of their scriptures.
tBoonePickens
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7/27/2010 12:17:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 12:15:29 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Of course I could be wrong, but alot of this hyperbole stuff sounds like it's further attempts by Christians to cherry-pick only the stuff they like out of their scriptures.

Are you sure your not an atheist?
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
InsertNameHere
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7/27/2010 12:18:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 12:17:03 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 7/27/2010 12:15:29 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Of course I could be wrong, but alot of this hyperbole stuff sounds like it's further attempts by Christians to cherry-pick only the stuff they like out of their scriptures.

Are you sure your not an atheist?

No, I'm not. I just don't like the hypocrisy that is displayed by so many religious people, christians in particular.
tBoonePickens
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7/27/2010 12:23:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 12:18:44 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
No, I'm not. I just don't like the hypocrisy that is displayed by so many religious people, christians in particular.

And Muslims aren't hypocritical? Of the major religions, they're the biggest hypocrites!
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.