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The Rapture.

Rant
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4/5/2015 10:12:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Some people attack the timing of the rapture. Others attack the nature of the rapture. This argument is an attack the nature of the event, as it attempts to cast into doubt the doctrine that we will be raptured to heaven. This argument might support the idea of a post tribulation rapture, because after the tribulation, Jesus will no longer be in heaven, but on earth. So, a rapture at that time would certainly not be "to heaven". So, the issue here is: Does the Bible teach that the rapture is "to heaven"? Yes, and here are many (probably not all) supporting scriptures and interpretations:
John 14:2-3 describes the rapture to heaven. Jesus says he is going away. He ended up going away to heaven, as shown in Acts 1. To receive us to himself means that he is going to take us to be where he is going. He went to prepare a place for us. That place is in the place where he went. Again, he went away to heaven. Therefore, the place he prepared for us is also in heaven.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Psalm 27 also describes the rapture to heaven. This Psalm is read at the Feast of Trumpets, which teaches us about the rapture. The phrase "he shall hide me in his pavilion" indicates that we will be hid in the house or dwelling place of the Lord. The Lord dwells in heaven, therefore, we will be hid in heaven during the "time of trouble" or tribulation.
Pss 27:4 One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the
LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.
Pss 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
Pss 27:6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.
Revelation 4:1 also describes the rapture to heaven. This passage is sometimes doubted as being a rapture verse. If you compare with Rev 3:8-10 and Matt 25:1-13 you should not a recurring symbol, the "open door", which links all three passages as being about the rapture. After this passage, John describes what he sees in heaven. For a list of detailed reasons why this passage is about the rapture see here: Revelation. 4:1
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Next are a few passages that they all indicate our "heavenly hope".
Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, (NIV)
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (KJV)
Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Hebrews 11:
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Electric-Eccentric
Posts: 1,309
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4/5/2015 10:28:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The rapture doctrine did not exist before John Darby invented it in 1830.
Before it "popped into John Darby's head" no one had ever heard of the rapture doctrine.
Life is what YOU make it,
Most just try and fake it...
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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4/5/2015 10:34:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/5/2015 10:12:20 PM, Rant wrote:
Some people attack the timing of the rapture. Others attack the nature of the rapture. This argument is an attack the nature of the event, as it attempts to cast into doubt the doctrine that we will be raptured to heaven. This argument might support the idea of a post tribulation rapture, because after the tribulation, Jesus will no longer be in heaven, but on earth. So, a rapture at that time would certainly not be "to heaven". So, the issue here is: Does the Bible teach that the rapture is "to heaven"? Yes, and here are many (probably not all) supporting scriptures and interpretations:
John 14:2-3 describes the rapture to heaven. Jesus says he is going away. He ended up going away to heaven, as shown in Acts 1. To receive us to himself means that he is going to take us to be where he is going. He went to prepare a place for us. That place is in the place where he went. Again, he went away to heaven. Therefore, the place he prepared for us is also in heaven.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Psalm 27 also describes the rapture to heaven. This Psalm is read at the Feast of Trumpets, which teaches us about the rapture. The phrase "he shall hide me in his pavilion" indicates that we will be hid in the house or dwelling place of the Lord. The Lord dwells in heaven, therefore, we will be hid in heaven during the "time of trouble" or tribulation.
Pss 27:4 One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the
LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.
Pss 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
Pss 27:6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.
Revelation 4:1 also describes the rapture to heaven. This passage is sometimes doubted as being a rapture verse. If you compare with Rev 3:8-10 and Matt 25:1-13 you should not a recurring symbol, the "open door", which links all three passages as being about the rapture. After this passage, John describes what he sees in heaven. For a list of detailed reasons why this passage is about the rapture see here: Revelation. 4:1
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Next are a few passages that they all indicate our "heavenly hope".
Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, (NIV)
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (KJV)
Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Hebrews 11:
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. : :

When the whole earth begins to shake violently, the last visible flesh on the earth that appears to be moving will also perish. The invisible spirit that made that flesh move will wake up in two new bodies in the New Heaven and Earth. One body will be a male and the other body will be a female. They will be partners in every individual dream they have together. They won't even remember living in the first Heaven and Earth that was destroyed by our Creator.
annanicole
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4/5/2015 11:07:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/5/2015 10:28:27 PM, Electric-Eccentric wrote:
The rapture doctrine did not exist before John Darby invented it in 1830.
Before it "popped into John Darby's head" no one had ever heard of the rapture doctrine.

That's true, and it is a ridiculous doctrine as applied by the premillennialists. It all depends upon how one defines "rapture".
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
JJ50
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4/6/2015 2:37:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The rapture garbage is a total nonsense and isn't going to happen, imo. It is so sad that people like Rant have so little in their lives they spend their time banging on about it!
celestialtorahteacher
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4/6/2015 6:30:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 2:37:49 AM, JJ50 wrote:
The rapture garbage is a total nonsense and isn't going to happen, imo. It is so sad that people like Rant have so little in their lives they spend their time banging on about it!

Don't be so sure of things you can't predict. If and when prophesies come true, they always come true in ways believers least expect.

The "Rapture", especially Paul's version of it, is code and the code is astrology, the mazzorot, the Zodiac. Christ is Christ Aquarius as Aquarius is and always seems have been since Chaldean times at least, (remember "Aramaic" was called "Syrio-Chaldean" in former times) the Man Sign of the Zodiac. And more important than that, Aquarius is the Baptist Sign of the Zodiac. Christ/Messiah is the Humanitarian Archetype found in the Sign of Man, Aquarius, the Bearer of Living Waters. Jesus insistently reminds us he is the Son of Man and this is astrological code for his representing on earth the Man Sign of heaven above. Who "rules" Aquarius? Saturn rules Aquarius in ancient times. The Canaanite name for their highest God, the same God Most High of the ancient Hebrews, was "EL" and it was also the Canaanite name for the planet Saturn. This is the Archetypal Messianic Relationship between Father and Son, EL and Aquarius who bears the Man Sign of the Zodiac and represents all Humanity which is why Aquarius is bisexually identified, Ganymede, the "most beautiful of men", not the most handsome but "beautiful" as some men are beautiful like beautiful women. Ariel, a moon of Uranus, the discovered planetary ruler of Aquarius, is also the ancient Hebrew angel name for the Angel of Jerusalem, the Angel of Peace, the Lion of God, because Ariel is and astrological creature composed of the two Fixed Signs of the Zodiac, Leo and Aquarius, which form the Crossbar of the Grand Cross of Heaven, the Four Fixed Signs of the Zodiac, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius, Taurus, the Faces of the Merkabah, the Chariot of God, Lion, Eagle, Man, Ox. Only the Man Sign is a human being, the others are still animals. The Man Face must rule the Lion Face on the Crossbar which is an Ariel and is also, The Sphinx.

Many places had female Sphinx faces and breasts too. Humanity must be represented by both sexes as human beings are and this is why God is sending in the Messiah in feminine form came she as the very first Christian prophesy stated by Pricilla the Prophetess. She is coming bearing the Spirit of Christ as Christ Himself is now Visible to all and needs no earthly representative anymore save the Sword of Christ which exists in Nazareth and will someday soon be home in Jerusalem forever. Why is Christ visible now, and "in the clouds of heaven"? Because the Celestial Torah code has been found and revealed and reveals the true prophesy coming to life in our times. Aquarius is visible to all in the "clouds of heaven" which is ancient code for the Milky Way which in places where the night sky is still clear overwhelms the eyes as a River of stars occluding, clouding over, the stars behind our galaxy seen on edge. Rise in the Air, my Christian brethren and sisters to meet Christ Aquarius, in the Air Sign yet is also the Water God Sign. A God of All must have powers over Earth, Air, Water, and Fire.

And oh yes, there most certainly is an Aquariana Divide that began actually in the 1950's and really got going in the 1960's to produce most all the paths we must take to gain control over our selfish selves ruining the planet Earth. Replenish the Earth! Those on the Piscean side of the Aquariana Divide are going to see their whole belief system fall to pieces as Armageddon has already arrived and the Four Horsemen are here today and active: The Israeli archeolist, the two Israeli historians, and yours truly, all of of us Jews bringing down the whole Abrahamic religion tree--because its rotten to the core--based upon complete fabrications taken as real history of Hebrews called the Bible. Armageddon arrived at Meggido which is what Armageddon translates in Greek, both words standing for the heavenly Realm of the Divine Assembly of gods and goddesses.

Sorry, Abrahamics, but your day is done. Its a whole new ballgame now as God has moved the spiritual center to the New World. The Old World has the Sign of the Messiah in the Holy Land but She is coming to the New World. And Christ Messiah is up there in the heavens and down in the minds of all who can see the Miracle of Messianic Continuity riding all through the generations despite the rise and fall of the religious pack horses of Knowledge of God.
celestialtorahteacher
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4/6/2015 6:46:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm quite active as you all may have noticed as this commenting here is only the tip of the iceberg of my activist life. But I am getting older so there will come a day when these words of spiritual wisdom coming from a Jewish Christian prophesy bearer, the first in a long long while, won't be here. Night is coming when no man can work, well, at least not without solar energy captured somewhere along the line. Anyway, pay attention to what I say and remember it. You don't have to repeat it five times daily, three times will do, just kidding! but keep a copy of The Aquariana Key for your kids and grandchildren. They'll be ready for it while our generations are still on the Borderline between Piscean Age dying religions and New Age of Aquarius restoration of the best of old and new together in harmony. Climax Civilization is coming and in more ways than one.
Electric-Eccentric
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4/6/2015 7:17:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The only "secret code" of scriptures is that only those of the FEW will understand what is written in it. A bit like British humor, not all "get it".

When the scriptures and other religious writings are read for the fiction that they are, then you don't get "caught up" in the santa god and other make believe and pretend that those of the lazy day dreaming masses do.

Most follow religion much like players of games of chance follow their gambling. They ignore and reject the KNOWN odds of winning and deceive themselves into believing that they are going to beat the KNOWN odds with some sort of special enlightened religious or other magical means.

Make believe and pretend is just that. It's only real to small children and those of the many that refuse to GROW UP and leave the childish ways of make believe and pretend realities behind them.

The Paul character in the bible stories was saying GROW UP and quit talking baby talk.

GROW UP and grow teeth so you can eat the meat of the Truth.

But the small minded are not interested in growing up if it means that they have to become responsible for their thoughts and actions. Better to believe in santa god and such if you want free gifts and candy by just wishing it.

Religious concepts are much like the concepts and following of bald headed people that are looking for miracle ways to grow a bush on top of their heads so that they can get the ladies, look younger and feel whole.

I have heard many a bald headed person say when presented with the known facts that "it just MIGHT work".

A bit like a guy I knew years ago that had a head full of day dreams. He was telling me his BIG plans for success and I pointed out the obvious flaws in his plans.

He told me that ALL he had was his dreams.

Pretty sad when all a person has is their deceptions and lies called good.

Like the Disney doctrine goes, when you wish upon a star.......

p.s. waiting for the rapture is much like waiting for God to fart.
Life is what YOU make it,
Most just try and fake it...
DanneJeRusse
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4/6/2015 9:21:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/5/2015 10:12:20 PM, Rant wrote:
Some people attack the timing of the rapture. Others attack the nature of the rapture.

http://www.bibleprophesy.org...
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Rant
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4/6/2015 10:46:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
John Darby invented it in 1830.> that's a total LIE! and if you believe that>your about as dumb as they come!
Rant
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4/6/2015 10:54:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
As more and more people embrace the doctrines of the Reformation, many of these people fail to discard the errors that some of the Reformers were unable to discover in their limited lifetimes.

Many of the Covenant Calvinists embrace the Roman Catholic ideology of amillennialism. Furthermore, many within this tradition, and even within the premillennial family, assert that the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture did not develop until the 1800s. Such statements are terribly inaccurate.

I agree with Dr. Tim Lahaye, Dr. Richard Mayhue, and Dr. Wayne Brindle when they state: "The timing of the rapture is not a cardinal doctrine that should divide God's people, but those who interpret the Bible literally find many strong reasons to believe that the rapture will be pre-tribulational" (The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy, 289).

No matter whether one believes in a pre-trib rapture or not, there are historical statements that verify that people have indeed believed this teaching before the 1800s.

The Early Church Fathers Were Premillennial

It is clear that the early church immediately following the apostles held to a premillennial view of Christ's coming to earth. These theologians embraced two key truths concerning Christ's return to earth. The idea of an any moment return and a coming of Christ to rule as the political and spiritual king over the world were advocated by many of the earliest theologians. Here is a partial list of some of the theologians who embraced the doctrine of imminency and/or the future kingdom rule of Christ:

Papias (60-130)

Clement of Rome (90-100)

The Sherpherd of Hermas (96-150)

Ignatius of Antioch (98-117)

Barnabas (100)

The Didache (100-160)

Justin Martyr (110-165)

The Epistle of Barnabas (117-138)

Irenaeus (120-202)

Tertullian (145-220)

Hippolytus (185-236)

Cyprian (200-250)

Lactantius (260-330)

From these men we see the doctrine of Christ's soon return within a premillennial framework. The doctrine permeated the early church. Some of these men even had direct contact with the apostles.
Marauder
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4/6/2015 12:36:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/5/2015 10:12:20 PM, Rant wrote:
Some people attack the timing of the rapture. Others attack the nature of the rapture. This argument is an attack the nature of the event, as it attempts to cast into doubt the doctrine that we will be raptured to heaven. This argument might support the idea of a post tribulation rapture, because after the tribulation, Jesus will no longer be in heaven, but on earth. So, a rapture at that time would certainly not be "to heaven". So, the issue here is: Does the Bible teach that the rapture is "to heaven"? Yes, and here are many (probably not all) supporting scriptures and interpretations:

So I'm confused, When you say "this argument is an attack...." do you mean the argument you are trying to make or just one you are assuming we already know about that you are referring to and trying to refute? Because if you mean 'this argument' as in 'this argument i'm making...' then that does not make sense because your end conclusion does not match the description you gave for 'this argument...' You in fact do argue the bible states Jesus is going to come back and take us all to heaven in a manner described by pre-tribulation rapture teachers.

however your stretching those particular scriptures past what you can actually get from them. I will go over them point for point below.

John 14:2-3 describes the rapture to heaven. Jesus says he is going away. He ended up going away to heaven, as shown in Acts 1. To receive us to himself means that he is going to take us to be where he is going. He went to prepare a place for us. That place is in the place where he went. Again, he went away to heaven. Therefore, the place he prepared for us is also in heaven.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Yes, these verses do promise us Jesus is coming back and he he is going to take us all (the church) to heaven with him. But this is a Straw man fallacy http://www.nizkor.org... You should know well enough the question of if we are going to heaven or that Jesus is coming back to take us there with him is not what people disagree on when it comes to the rapture. Not most people anyway. In fact most who do not teach pre-tribulation rapture teaching Still teach Jesus is coming back for us to bring us all to heaven too, but post tribulation, on the day of judgment. They contend Christ is coming back with thunder and trumpet sound, not in secret taking people out of there clothes leaving the world to suffer under an anti-christ for 7 years. Matthew 24:29-31 They are not contending that he is not coming back and while they may contend a limited earthly reign is on the timeline somewhere they certainly do not contend we are going to heaven.
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Once again, this is not rapture teaching. because Jesus coming on the clouds is not going to be a secret that teleports christians out of their clothing. And more importantly this passage only supports that christ will come back in the clouds, it does not support the rapture teaching he is coming back before our tribulation.
Psalm 27 also describes the rapture to heaven. This Psalm is read at the Feast of Trumpets, which teaches us about the rapture. The phrase "he shall hide me in his pavilion" indicates that we will be hid in the house or dwelling place of the Lord. The Lord dwells in heaven, therefore, we will be hid in heaven during the "time of trouble" or tribulation.
Pss 27:4 One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the
LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.
Pss 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
Pss 27:6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.
again this does speak of a tribulation. and it's not a prophecy for that matter.
Revelation 4:1 also describes the rapture to heaven. This passage is sometimes doubted as being a rapture verse. If you compare with Rev 3:8-10 and Matt 25:1-13 you should not a recurring symbol, the "open door", which links all three passages as being about the rapture. After this passage, John describes what he sees in heaven. For a list of detailed reasons why this passage is about the rapture see here: Revelation. 4:1
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
This obviously was to show John the source of his vision, heaven. it's not the message of the vision itself.
Next are a few passages that they all indicate our "heavenly hope".
Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, (NIV)
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (KJV)
Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Hebrews 11:
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Some criticism as before, this has nothing to do with the typical contentions against rapture teaching. Most everyone agrees we are going to heaven one day. The contention against rapture teaching is that we are not being taken there in secret before a tribulation. We are going to have to go through the times of tribulation, that is why we are warned to be prepared for these times, and when Christ returns Jesus wins, the Devil loses, end of story.

There is a man in Russia who claims to be Jesus having come back. Do you know why I'm not rushing to go meet him or even look up what he say's or anything else about him? Because i know the true Christ is coming back with thunder and trumpet sound. I'm not going to hear about him on random internet article about an obscure news story taking place in Russia. I'm going to know because we wont be able to
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Rant
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4/6/2015 1:33:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
stles.

Two Pretribulational References in the Early Church

1. The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)

The Shepherd of Hermas was written between 96-150 AD. This document provides a statement that resembles a teaching of a pre-trib rapture doctrine. Though it is not exactly as found in modern day scholarly pretribulational writings, it still shows that an idea existed in some degree that God's people could escape the future tribulation that was to come on the whole earth. The text reads:
"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."
This is not a systematic teaching, nor does it answer all of the questions that one may have. But it does give a reference to the possibility that God's people can escape the great tribulation.

2. Victorinus ( Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)

Victorinus wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation. In one place he made an interesting statement that reflects his idea that the church would be removed prior to the tribulation. Of course his ideas were not systematic, and some will argue that he contradicts himself in other places, which may very well be true. But even with such an admission it still serves us well to see that early in the church history someone taught in some sense that God's church could escape the tribulation period by being removed from the earth. His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pre-trib reference of some sort:
"And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up." For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution.
This reference gives light into a developing idea in the earliest periods of the church. There was an idea that God's people could be spared the terrible time of wrath thatGod would pour out on the earth by removing the saints. The saint's departure from the earth would occur so they would not undergo the terible wrath at the beginning of the judgments of God upon the sinful unbelieving world.

Three Clear Summary Points from the Early Church Fathers' Teachings

These early church fathers expected Christ to physically return to earth followed by a 1000 year kingdom rule on earth.
By many of the writings we can see they believed in the possibility of an any moment return of Christ with some statements that resemble a pre-trib view point.
Even though the early church was under heavy persecution these teachers believed there would still come a distinct time of great tribulation in the future.
Rant
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4/6/2015 1:52:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373)

Ephraem wrote an important sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World." As a prominent theologian and prolific writer of the Eastern Byzantine church, he advocated for a pretribulational rapture position for the church. Dr. Grant Jeffrey has noted that he had a profound love for the Scriptures. Below is a selected quote that concerns the escape of God's people from the horrible tribulation. He stated:

"We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of hte Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we ovvupied with wordly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it it the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see it with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and invasions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor ofthe appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!
Notice that there is a clear teaching on the rapture of the saints before the terrible tribulation period. This theologian admonishes the people not to desire to see the Day of the Lord? Why? Because in his mind to see the day of the Lord means a person is not a believer. The believers will be snatched away and taken to the Lord before this time period begins. Look closely at what he says again:
Rant
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4/6/2015 2:28:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Many falsely advocate that the idea of a pre-trib rapture view developed in 1800s through J.N. Darby or through some sects and mystics. Such a view does not hold water, though it is popular in many circles.
And this forum is full of them Dumb as a skunk and they smell like one. Enjoy
annanicole
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4/6/2015 3:36:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 1:46:01 PM, Rant wrote:
People like El and Ann just mouth off with no understanding.

Pfffffft. Did Jesus succeed in setting up His kingdom on earth, or not?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Rant
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4/6/2015 3:45:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You just don't get it ANN> dust off that bible and read it with an open mind and ask the Ghost to help You. Knock on the Door and it will be open >iff you really SEEK! Enjoy
Rant
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4/6/2015 3:49:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rant
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4/6/2015 3:56:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rant
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4/6/2015 4:08:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rant
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4/6/2015 4:11:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I would say we are at Chapter 3 As I thread because chapter 4 is the rapture of the church!
Rant
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4/6/2015 4:14:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
To me Chapter 4 is Huge. I will say again Huge. the bride of Christ {Church} is in Heaven.
Rant
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4/6/2015 4:14:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Rant
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4/6/2015 4:23:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Come on Ann ask me why I think the Bride of Christ is in Heaven in Chapter 4! Can you figure it out?? and its not the door.
bornofgod
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4/6/2015 5:00:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 3:36:57 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/6/2015 1:46:01 PM, Rant wrote:
People like El and Ann just mouth off with no understanding.

Pfffffft. Did Jesus succeed in setting up His kingdom on earth, or not? : :

No, Jesus and the rest of us saints aren't here to set up a visible kingdom. We came to testify to the invisible Kingdom of God where we all were born.