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Early Christians didn't fact check sources

ThreePointOneFour
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4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told. This applies to all of Paul's teachings, the epistles, and gospels.

Anyone who attempts to inquire or fact check merely "deceives himself," for all those things are "foolishness before God." In fact, "it is written" that "the reasoning of the wise" is "useless," that God "will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and [that God will] bring the discernment of the discerning to nothing"--making fools of "the wise man," "the scribe," and "the skilled questioner" (1 Corinthians 1:18-20 & 3:18-20).

Consider what happened to Zacharias when he asked for evidence? He was struck mute on the spot!

And what does James have to say? James 1:6-8 says, "But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways."
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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4/6/2015 2:33:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told. This applies to all of Paul's teachings, the epistles, and gospels.

Anyone who attempts to inquire or fact check merely "deceives himself," for all those things are "foolishness before God." In fact, "it is written" that "the reasoning of the wise" is "useless," that God "will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and [that God will] bring the discernment of the discerning to nothing"--making fools of "the wise man," "the scribe," and "the skilled questioner" (1 Corinthians 1:18-20 & 3:18-20).

Consider what happened to Zacharias when he asked for evidence? He was struck mute on the spot!

And what does James have to say? James 1:6-8 says, "But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways."

There is not the slightest bit of verifiable evidence to back up the less than credible events attributed to Jesus.
ThreePointOneFour
Posts: 14
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4/6/2015 2:47:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 2:33:46 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told. This applies to all of Paul's teachings, the epistles, and gospels.

Anyone who attempts to inquire or fact check merely "deceives himself," for all those things are "foolishness before God." In fact, "it is written" that "the reasoning of the wise" is "useless," that God "will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and [that God will] bring the discernment of the discerning to nothing"--making fools of "the wise man," "the scribe," and "the skilled questioner" (1 Corinthians 1:18-20 & 3:18-20).

Consider what happened to Zacharias when he asked for evidence? He was struck mute on the spot!

And what does James have to say? James 1:6-8 says, "But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways."


There is not the slightest bit of verifiable evidence to back up the less than credible events attributed to Jesus.

I firmly agree! It is ridiculous how the biblical stories were required to be accepted and believed by early Christians without proper verification. In fact, how can you check any facts, when any fact contrary to dogma is automatically a lie, born only of evil, arrogance, ignorance, and greed?
bornofgod
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4/6/2015 2:49:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told. This applies to all of Paul's teachings, the epistles, and gospels.

Anyone who attempts to inquire or fact check merely "deceives himself," for all those things are "foolishness before God." In fact, "it is written" that "the reasoning of the wise" is "useless," that God "will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and [that God will] bring the discernment of the discerning to nothing"--making fools of "the wise man," "the scribe," and "the skilled questioner" (1 Corinthians 1:18-20 & 3:18-20).

Consider what happened to Zacharias when he asked for evidence? He was struck mute on the spot!

And what does James have to say? James 1:6-8 says, "But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways." : :

Do you have enough faith to know Me or are you just repeating verses that you found in the Bible?

Everyone who reads the Bible has been deceived by it but only a few have been directly taught by our Creator what the true Word of God means. It certainly doesn't mean the written scriptures, although the prophecies can be used by those of us who testify to the Word of God to admonish liars and teach those who listen to us.

God has also allowed a few of His chosen believers to understand a few prophecies to know that the gospel we saints preach is the actual Voice of the Lord. So if you're hearing the true gospel as you read this post, it's possible you're one of His chosen believers.
ThreePointOneFour
Posts: 14
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4/6/2015 3:13:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Do you have enough faith to know Me or are you just repeating verses that you found in the Bible?

Me? Are you pretending to speak for god? And no,I'm not just repeating verses, I'm quoting the bible in support of the topic and context for the opening post statement I made which was, early Christians didn't fact check their sources. That's how one goes about a rational conversation. Notice I don't rely on personal anecdote.

Everyone who reads the Bible has been deceived by it but only a few have been directly taught by our Creator what the true Word of God means. It certainly doesn't mean the written scriptures, although the prophecies can be used by those of us who testify to the Word of God to admonish liars and teach those who listen to us.

You are making an outlandish claim. Why would anyone have reason to believe you are able to understand something that others cannot. What makes you privileged? Please support your claim.

God has also allowed a few of His chosen believers to understand a few prophecies to know that the gospel we saints preach is the actual Voice of the Lord. So if you're hearing the true gospel as you read this post, it's possible you're one of His chosen believers.

Again there is no good reason to think you are no one special. I can see you through the stained glass.
dee-em
Posts: 6,482
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4/6/2015 5:49:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told. This applies to all of Paul's teachings, the epistles, and gospels.

Anyone who attempts to inquire or fact check merely "deceives himself," for all those things are "foolishness before God." In fact, "it is written" that "the reasoning of the wise" is "useless," that God "will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and [that God will] bring the discernment of the discerning to nothing"--making fools of "the wise man," "the scribe," and "the skilled questioner" (1 Corinthians 1:18-20 & 3:18-20).

Consider what happened to Zacharias when he asked for evidence? He was struck mute on the spot!

And what does James have to say? James 1:6-8 says, "But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways."

Hello and welcome, Pi.

Yes, Christianity (all religion) has never welcomed questioning. How could they? It's such a flimsy house of cards that the slightest tremor could set it tumbling. The job of believers is to simply accept on faith. Nothing else is required. If you are not a believer, then the church will mock and demonize you (and worse in bygone days).
ThreePointOneFour
Posts: 14
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4/6/2015 8:43:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago

Hello and welcome, Pi.

Yes, Christianity (all religion) has never welcomed questioning. How could they? It's such a flimsy house of cards that the slightest tremor could set it tumbling. The job of believers is to simply accept on faith. Nothing else is required. If you are not a believer, then the church will mock and demonize you (and worse in bygone days).

The term "Sheep" seems so appropriate. Undoubtedly discouragement and straightforward condemnation for inquiry works for all religions. Here Paul has constructed an epistemology of wisdom, knowledge, revelation and faith. All conveniently provided by the holy spirit.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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4/6/2015 9:48:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (I Thess 2: 5)

The word translated "prove", dokimazo, means "to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing is genuine or not)"

I doubt that your statement, "One cannot find any verses recommending Christians seeks proof ... ", is true.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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4/6/2015 9:58:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 9:54:32 AM, Accipiter wrote:
The Bible like a dictator abhor the intellectuals.

Many intellectuals study the Bible, but some appear to be able to compartmentalise the logical part of their brain. Thus their belief system is not compromised!
slo1
Posts: 4,361
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4/6/2015 10:09:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 9:48:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (I Thess 2: 5)

The word translated "prove", dokimazo, means "to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing is genuine or not)"

I doubt that your statement, "One cannot find any verses recommending Christians seeks proof ... ", is true.

Very astute find. One would be hard pressed though to deny that in popular culture of religions the concept of unquestionable faith is needed to experience the benefits of the religion. Doubting Thomas is the classic story and it surely is not presented that doubt until proven is a good thing.

The concept of blind faith as a recipe of being God touched is so embedded it comes out in our pop culture. Look at this movie of Little Boy that is coming out. The clip shows a priest telling a kid that he can even move mountains if he has faith, but if it waivers even a little he can't.

While there are many exceptions, Christianity as a whole does not advocate questioning or challenging its tenants.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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4/6/2015 10:14:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 3:13:23 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
Do you have enough faith to know Me or are you just repeating verses that you found in the Bible?

Me? Are you pretending to speak for god? And no,I'm not just repeating verses, I'm quoting the bible in support of the topic and context for the opening post statement I made which was, early Christians didn't fact check their sources. That's how one goes about a rational conversation. Notice I don't rely on personal anecdote.

Everyone who reads the Bible has been deceived by it but only a few have been directly taught by our Creator what the true Word of God means. It certainly doesn't mean the written scriptures, although the prophecies can be used by those of us who testify to the Word of God to admonish liars and teach those who listen to us.

You are making an outlandish claim. Why would anyone have reason to believe you are able to understand something that others cannot. What makes you privileged? Please support your claim.

God has also allowed a few of His chosen believers to understand a few prophecies to know that the gospel we saints preach is the actual Voice of the Lord. So if you're hearing the true gospel as you read this post, it's possible you're one of His chosen believers.

Again there is no good reason to think you are no one special. I can see you through the stained glass. : :

No man can see Me but a few can hear My Voice. If you listen to My Voice and obey ALL My commandments, I will teach you about the past, the present delusion you're in and the future. I can also teach you how you and everything else was created and formed into visible objects that My people thought was real since they woke up in My dream.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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4/6/2015 10:43:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 10:09:19 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 4/6/2015 9:48:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (I Thess 2: 5)

The word translated "prove", dokimazo, means "to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing is genuine or not)"

I doubt that your statement, "One cannot find any verses recommending Christians seeks proof ... ", is true.

Very astute find. One would be hard pressed though to deny that in popular culture of religions the concept of unquestionable faith is needed to experience the benefits of the religion.

That's because 90% of the "Christian" world has a poor understanding of what faith is and what generates faith. It is not intended to be a leap in the dark. There is a difference between "what the NT teaches" versus "in popular culture."
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Accipiter
Posts: 1,165
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4/6/2015 10:52:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 9:58:56 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 4/6/2015 9:54:32 AM, Accipiter wrote:
The Bible like a dictator abhor the intellectuals.

Many intellectuals study the Bible, but some appear to be able to compartmentalise the logical part of their brain. Thus their belief system is not compromised!

It can't be denied that the Bible fosters anti-intellectualism, I see it in the news all the time.
ThreePointOneFour
Posts: 14
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4/6/2015 11:00:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 9:48:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (I Thess 2: 5)

The word translated "prove", dokimazo, means "to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing is genuine or not)"

I doubt that your statement, "One cannot find any verses recommending Christians seeks proof ... ", is true.

The verse you have quoted, when pried clear of the Pauline writings, certainly looks like there is a command to prove all things. However, are you going to tell me that the method for discerning truth that the apostles preached was through critical inquiry of the apostle"s sources? Are you suggesting that there is an example where someone actually looked for verification beyond what they were told? Clearly Paul"s and everyone else"s prescribed method was through the subjective and unverifiable methods of wisdom, knowledge and faith that comes from the gifts of the Holy Ghost. It doesn't ever come from independent research, critical inquiry, or questioning witnesses. Can you find any evidence where a claim was weighed and then rejected? Or where a claim was scrutinized and logically reasoned to a positive conclusion?
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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4/6/2015 11:19:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 11:00:39 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
At 4/6/2015 9:48:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (I Thess 2: 5)

The word translated "prove", dokimazo, means "to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing is genuine or not)"

I doubt that your statement, "One cannot find any verses recommending Christians seeks proof ... ", is true.

The verse you have quoted, when pried clear of the Pauline writings, certainly looks like there is a command to prove all things.

Of course it does. That's why I said your statement, ""One cannot find any verses recommending Christians seeks proof ... " is patently incorrect.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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4/6/2015 11:21:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 11:00:39 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
At 4/6/2015 9:48:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (I Thess 2: 5)

The word translated "prove", dokimazo, means "to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing is genuine or not)"

I doubt that your statement, "One cannot find any verses recommending Christians seeks proof ... ", is true.

Are you suggesting that there is an example where someone actually looked for verification beyond what they were told?

Certainly so. Multiple times.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
ThreePointOneFour
Posts: 14
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4/6/2015 11:31:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 11:19:31 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/6/2015 11:00:39 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
At 4/6/2015 9:48:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (I Thess 2: 5)

The word translated "prove", dokimazo, means "to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing is genuine or not)"

I doubt that your statement, "One cannot find any verses recommending Christians seeks proof ... ", is true.

The verse you have quoted, when pried clear of the Pauline writings, certainly looks like there is a command to prove all things.

Of course it does. That's why I said your statement, ""One cannot find any verses recommending Christians seeks proof ... " is patently incorrect.

The challenge is to show where there is critical inquiry. Step back a foot or two, you're missing the actual point.
annanicole
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4/6/2015 12:21:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 11:31:55 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
At 4/6/2015 11:19:31 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/6/2015 11:00:39 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
At 4/6/2015 9:48:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (I Thess 2: 5)

The word translated "prove", dokimazo, means "to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing is genuine or not)"

I doubt that your statement, "One cannot find any verses recommending Christians seeks proof ... ", is true.

The verse you have quoted, when pried clear of the Pauline writings, certainly looks like there is a command to prove all things.

Of course it does. That's why I said your statement, ""One cannot find any verses recommending Christians seeks proof ... " is patently incorrect.

The challenge is to show where there is critical inquiry. Step back a foot or two, you're missing the actual point.

Define "critical inquiry". Do you meaning questioning of witnesses?

And my point was that your statement, "One cannot find any verses recommending Christians seeks proof ... " is simply an erroneous statement. There are actually multiple such statements. You cannot equate "lay aside Grecian philosophy" with "avoid inquiry".
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Geogeer
Posts: 4,285
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4/6/2015 2:16:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told. This applies to all of Paul's teachings, the epistles, and gospels.

Anyone who attempts to inquire or fact check merely "deceives himself," for all those things are "foolishness before God." In fact, "it is written" that "the reasoning of the wise" is "useless," that God "will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and [that God will] bring the discernment of the discerning to nothing"--making fools of "the wise man," "the scribe," and "the skilled questioner" (1 Corinthians 1:18-20 & 3:18-20).

Consider what happened to Zacharias when he asked for evidence? He was struck mute on the spot!

And what does James have to say? James 1:6-8 says, "But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways."

And St. Paul notes that there were 500 who were witnesses - most of whom were still alive at the time. Basically Paul is saying, go and check with them if you don't believe me.
ThreePointOneFour
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4/6/2015 5:12:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
And St. Paul notes that there were 500 who were witnesses - most of whom were still alive at the time. Basically Paul is saying, go and check with them if you don't believe me.

That gets exactly to the point. No one does! Just like there is no one that asks even one of the 500. According to instructions from Paul and the rest of the NT that kind of inquisition would be the absolute wrong way to verify whether or not this actually happened. Paul's method is one based on moral evidence not empirical evidence. In other words believe any prophesy that is morally good, and shun any prophesy that is morally bad. Christians are told that false prophets will come bearing all the same evidence true prophets will (Matthew 24:23-29; Mark 13:21-23), therefore only a moral test will tell them apart. Jesus gives us an example of this "moral" test of prophesy himself; it is based entirely on whether the prophesy produces good or evil fruit (Matthew 7:15-20), nothing more. How would you test if what I am writing here is true or not? Would you look up the verses to check for accuracy? Would you review a theological or biblical commentary, dictionary or discuss with others? Would you possibly consult other biblical versions, translations and interpretations? All these would be examples of how one might examine these comments but that goes far beyond Jesus and Paul's instructions and is dogmatically inappropriate.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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4/6/2015 5:20:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 10:43:45 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/6/2015 10:09:19 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 4/6/2015 9:48:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (I Thess 2: 5)

The word translated "prove", dokimazo, means "to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing is genuine or not)"

I doubt that your statement, "One cannot find any verses recommending Christians seeks proof ... ", is true.

Very astute find. One would be hard pressed though to deny that in popular culture of religions the concept of unquestionable faith is needed to experience the benefits of the religion.

That's because 90% of the "Christian" world has a poor understanding of what faith is and what generates faith. It is not intended to be a leap in the dark. There is a difference between "what the NT teaches" versus "in popular culture." : :

100% of Christians have never experienced the faith that we saints and prophets have experienced.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/6/2015 6:32:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told. This applies to all of Paul's teachings, the epistles, and gospels.


You should read the bible before making such erroneous statements.

Do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil. - Thessalonians 5:20-22 (Paul)

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world - 1 John 4:1

After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. - Luke 2:46

So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe." John 20:25

Anyone who attempts to inquire or fact check merely "deceives himself," for all those things are "foolishness before God." In fact, "it is written" that "the reasoning of the wise" is "useless," that God "will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and [that God will] bring the discernment of the discerning to nothing"--making fools of "the wise man," "the scribe," and "the skilled questioner" (1 Corinthians 1:18-20 & 3:18-20).


And the wise people of this day and yesterday are still being shocked and shown incomplete. No shocker here.

Consider what happened to Zacharias when he asked for evidence? He was struck mute on the spot!

Luke 1:18-20

18 And Zacharias said to the angel "How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years.
19 And the angel answered and said to him, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings.
20 But behold, you will be mute and not able to speak until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words which will be fulfilled in their own time."

He asked for a sign and got one.


And what does James have to say? James 1:6-8 says, "But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways."

Doubt doesn't confirm anything. Ever hear it said if you don't stand for something you fall for anything? This is just stating a fact of human nature that a person who has a doubtful mind tends to be swayed by arguments that come their way. HENCE why the Bible actually advocates to test, reason, and have an answer to why you believe the way you do.

"But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect" 1 Peter 3:15
ThreePointOneFour
Posts: 14
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4/6/2015 6:34:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
100% of Christians have never experienced the faith that we saints and prophets have experienced.

You've mentioned this before...I have a question that is fit for someone who is so close to the inventor of the universe. What is the evil in heaven like?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,285
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4/6/2015 6:40:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 5:12:52 PM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
And St. Paul notes that there were 500 who were witnesses - most of whom were still alive at the time. Basically Paul is saying, go and check with them if you don't believe me.

That gets exactly to the point. No one does! Just like there is no one that asks even one of the 500.

Wouldn't that be the Gospel of Luke?

Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught. Luke 1:1-4

According to instructions from Paul and the rest of the NT that kind of inquisition would be the absolute wrong way to verify whether or not this actually happened. Paul's method is one based on moral evidence not empirical evidence. In other words believe any prophesy that is morally good, and shun any prophesy that is morally bad. Christians are told that false prophets will come bearing all the same evidence true prophets will (Matthew 24:23-29; Mark 13:21-23), therefore only a moral test will tell them apart. Jesus gives us an example of this "moral" test of prophesy himself; it is based entirely on whether the prophesy produces good or evil fruit (Matthew 7:15-20), nothing more. How would you test if what I am writing here is true or not? Would you look up the verses to check for accuracy? Would you review a theological or biblical commentary, dictionary or discuss with others? Would you possibly consult other biblical versions, translations and interpretations? All these would be examples of how one might examine these comments but that goes far beyond Jesus and Paul's instructions and is dogmatically inappropriate.

Well given that your arguments would lead people away from Jesus - whom Paul views as the messiah would inevitably lead to damnation, so yes it is pretty easy to review what you are writing here. Other than that, I would say you are taking it out of context...
Rant
Posts: 1,674
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4/6/2015 6:41:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is very B$> if you look at the rapture thread you will see some things that you don't want to see. but the lost will be the lost and im not going to piss on your parade.
ThreePointOneFour
Posts: 14
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4/6/2015 6:42:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This point and counter point addresses your point as well......

[And St. Paul notes that there were 500 who were witnesses - most of whom were still [alive at the time. Basically Paul is saying, go and check with them if you don't believe [me.

That gets exactly to the point. No one does! Just like there is no one that asks even one of the 500. According to instructions from Paul and the rest of the NT that kind of inquisition would be the absolute wrong way to verify whether or not this actually happened. Paul's method is one based on moral evidence not empirical evidence. In other words believe any prophesy that is morally good, and shun any prophesy that is morally bad. Christians are told that false prophets will come bearing all the same evidence true prophets will (Matthew 24:23-29; Mark 13:21-23), therefore only a moral test will tell them apart. Jesus gives us an example of this "moral" test of prophesy himself; it is based entirely on whether the prophesy produces good or evil fruit (Matthew 7:15-20), nothing more. How would you test if what I am writing here is true or not? Would you look up the verses to check for accuracy? Would you review a theological or biblical commentary, dictionary or discuss with others? Would you possibly consult other biblical versions, translations and interpretations? All these would be examples of how one might examine these comments but that goes far beyond Jesus and Paul's instructions and is dogmatically inappropriate.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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4/6/2015 6:54:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 6:34:23 PM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
100% of Christians have never experienced the faith that we saints and prophets have experienced.

You've mentioned this before...I have a question that is fit for someone who is so close to the inventor of the universe. What is the evil in heaven like? : :

Heaven is invisible so it's impossible to see any evil in it. However, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil has confused man ever since he started experiencing it. It kept them from knowing the tree of life, which is Heaven.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,078
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4/6/2015 7:06:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/6/2015 2:29:20 AM, ThreePointOneFour wrote:
The New Testament writers and early Christianity scorned the "wisdom of the wise". Critical inquiry was both discouraged and prohibited. One cannot find any verses recommending Christians to seek proof, or verify what they were being told. This applies to all of Paul's teachings, the epistles, and gospels.

Anyone who attempts to inquire or fact check merely "deceives himself," for all those things are "foolishness before God." In fact, "it is written" that "the reasoning of the wise" is "useless," that God "will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and [that God will] bring the discernment of the discerning to nothing"--making fools of "the wise man," "the scribe," and "the skilled questioner" (1 Corinthians 1:18-20 & 3:18-20).

Consider what happened to Zacharias when he asked for evidence? He was struck mute on the spot!

And what does James have to say? James 1:6-8 says, "But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways."

Atheists often complain about Christians constantly accusing them of taking verses out of context, but that's because atheists often do take verses out of context.
For instance, this atheist here is warping Bible verses as to mean "don't ever do any intellectual thinking it is evil to think". The more likely meaning is this:

Sometimes you will need faith to believe certain things that the Bible says; don't allow your intellectualism to cause you to turn from the Bible or reject important tenets of the Bible.
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