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The mortal is swolled up by life, not death.

ChopChopSuey
Posts: 204
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4/10/2015 6:24:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I will tell you all something that will end all this talk that I might be a JW.

JW's believe some people go to heaven to live in spirit bodies. I don't. I see the Bible as teaching that man is just fine in his present physical form and that just as Jesus had the power to heal and to resurrect to the flesh as in the case of Lazarus, if God fully sustains us by means of his spirit our physical bodies would be perfect and a pleasure to have.

I scoff at the idea that says the human in his physical body cannot become immortal. To me that is stupid thinking that does not understand what immortality is. It is but the state of condition we reach where sin becomes a thing God knows we will never ever again engage in and so he gives the promise of sustaining us forever. That is immortality, for nothing can ever exist lest God sustains it, even as in the temporary sense so also forever.

Jesus is the one alone having immortality until the first resurrection of his bride. That does not make him God as so many claim and in fact when immortality is properly understood proves he is not God. For God needs no one to sustain him with a promise that he will live forever like the promise which was given Jesus and which he is able to share to those who become like him in terms of hating lawlessness and loving righteousness so that there is no longer doubt that they never again sin just as he cannot deny himself so as to commit sin.

You can learn in just the Psalms alone that this idea of going to heaven as spirit embodied persons is not what the Old Testament teaches. And I believe that you are if you want to, able to learn that this inherited sin nature is but another fabrication. That would be a good start at being able to understanding that our literal bodies of flesh were never the problem and that God simply withdrew much of our sustaining spirit away from us when Adam sinned, thus allowing Adam to reap what he himself sowed in that without God continuing to sustain his life he would now suffer decay.

Now do you see the huge difference?

I believe that God made man for the earth and that man's body is only made mortal because God has withdrawn his sustaining spirit to a large degree. But all it takes for that which is mortal to be swallowed up by that which is immortal (and that is exactly how Paul states it) is for man to put on that image face to face with that image Jesus bears of God. Paul did not say that the mortal would be swallowed up by death. Paul said that this that is mortal would be swallowed up by life. And he describes it similarly as that which is mortal putting on that which is immortal.

2 Corinthians 5:4 "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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4/10/2015 6:31:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/10/2015 6:24:56 AM, ChopChopSuey wrote:
I will tell you all something that will end all this talk that I might be a JW.

JW's believe some people go to heaven to live in spirit bodies. I don't. I see the Bible as teaching that man is just fine in his present physical form and that just as Jesus had the power to heal and to resurrect to the flesh as in the case of Lazarus, if God fully sustains us by means of his spirit our physical bodies would be perfect and a pleasure to have.

I scoff at the idea that says the human in his physical body cannot become immortal. To me that is stupid thinking that does not understand what immortality is. It is but the state of condition we reach where sin becomes a thing God knows we will never ever again engage in and so he gives the promise of sustaining us forever. That is immortality, for nothing can ever exist lest God sustains it, even as in the temporary sense so also forever.

Jesus is the one alone having immortality until the first resurrection of his bride. That does not make him God as so many claim and in fact when immortality is properly understood proves he is not God. For God needs no one to sustain him with a promise that he will live forever like the promise which was given Jesus and which he is able to share to those who become like him in terms of hating lawlessness and loving righteousness so that there is no longer doubt that they never again sin just as he cannot deny himself so as to commit sin.

You can learn in just the Psalms alone that this idea of going to heaven as spirit embodied persons is not what the Old Testament teaches. And I believe that you are if you want to, able to learn that this inherited sin nature is but another fabrication. That would be a good start at being able to understanding that our literal bodies of flesh were never the problem and that God simply withdrew much of our sustaining spirit away from us when Adam sinned, thus allowing Adam to reap what he himself sowed in that without God continuing to sustain his life he would now suffer decay.

Now do you see the huge difference?

I believe that God made man for the earth and that man's body is only made mortal because God has withdrawn his sustaining spirit to a large degree. But all it takes for that which is mortal to be swallowed up by that which is immortal (and that is exactly how Paul states it) is for man to put on that image face to face with that image Jesus bears of God. Paul did not say that the mortal would be swallowed up by death. Paul said that this that is mortal would be swallowed up by life. And he describes it similarly as that which is mortal putting on that which is immortal.

2 Corinthians 5:4 "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

Your POV is no more credible than that of the unpleasant JW sect!
Gentorev
Posts: 2,890
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4/10/2015 6:59:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/10/2015 6:24:56 AM, ChopChopSuey wrote..........2 Corinthians 5:4 "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Gentorev responds.......... 2nd Corinthians 5: 4; "For we know that when this tent we live in---our body here on earth ----is torn down, God will have a house in heaven for us to live in, a home he himself has made, which will last forever. And now we sigh, so great is our desire that our home which comes from heaven should be put on over us; by being clothed with it we shall not be without a body. While we live in this earthly tent, we groan with a feeling of oppression; it is not that we want to get rid of our earthly body, but that we want to have the heavenly one put on over us.

Don't you believe that like Joseph who went into the land of "First born" to prepare a place for his brothers, our brother Jesus has gone ahead of us to prepare a place for us in heaven? And don't you believe that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven?
ChopChopSuey
Posts: 204
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4/10/2015 7:40:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/10/2015 6:59:38 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 4/10/2015 6:24:56 AM, ChopChopSuey wrote..........2 Corinthians 5:4 "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Gentorev responds.......... 2nd Corinthians 5: 4; "For we know that when this tent we live in---our body here on earth ----is torn down, God will have a house in heaven for us to live in, a home he himself has made, which will last forever. And now we sigh, so great is our desire that our home which comes from heaven should be put on over us; by being clothed with it we shall not be without a body. While we live in this earthly tent, we groan with a feeling of oppression; it is not that we want to get rid of our earthly body, but that we want to have the heavenly one put on over us.

Key words, "which comes from", as in coming here not going there. And that is talking about the body of Christ as being made with the help of humans hands per 1 Corinthians 3:9-23, anyway, though it is a comparison to the human body. Romans 8:23 "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

Still it is just as I said God has to give down his spirit to sustain us and in the sense that our bodies are now such a wreck and dying what we receive will be new bodies.

They will be bodies of flesh fashion after the undying image of Christ because we will be holy and sustainable of God by that holiness.

At 4/10/2015 6:59:38 AM, Gentorev wrote:
Don't you believe that like Joseph who went into the land of "First born" to prepare a place for his brothers, our brother Jesus has gone ahead of us to prepare a place for us in heaven? And don't you believe that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven?

No i don't. I believe that the place Jesus has gone to prepare for us is right here as we could not have life at all if he had not gone his way so as to prepare a place for life for us.

1 Corinthians 15:45 is merely saying we cannot inherit by our flesh, that we must inherit by a renewed spirit (in fact like Ephesians 4:23-24 and Colossians 3:10 speaks of).

We are not eligible for tenancy by any flesh and blood relationship. We are only eligible by a renewed spirit after the image of Christ. Our flesh can be there but it is not what holds the lease. And if our flesh does not follow a renewed spirit as Romans 8 speaks of, we will not be here at all.

This whole earth is to return to being God's kingdom with MEN:

Revelation 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,890
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4/10/2015 9:05:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/10/2015 7:44:05 AM, JJ50 wrote:
Yawn!

Are you that sleepy young girl? well I'll let you go to bed, and sometime later, I will reveal just show wrong you are and just how ignorant you are to the Holy Scripture.

So young girl, sleep tight and don't let the bed bugs bite.
ChopChopSuey
Posts: 204
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4/10/2015 5:48:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Adam and Eve were created one flesh showing that there was no superiority of man over woman. Both had been given dominion of this earth as equal partners:
"let them have dominion" Genesis 1:26
"male and female created he them" Genesis 1:27
"God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion" Genesis 1:28

It was only after Adam's and Eve's sin that Eve was told, "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Genesis 3:16

Because I have no preferred beliefs I am free to examine every scripture from every angle of every belief. As a result, what I have come to believe the Bible really teaches places a huge responsibility on us if true. Think for a minute about that. What I see, unlike so many of man's other ideas, is not some fanciful idea which allows me to escape responsibility for my present condition. Unlike so many of man's other ideas, there is no motive able to be found there for me to be hiding from or twisting truth as if to find comfort and/or tickle anyone's ears. What I am seeing the scriptures to teach, fully embraces that men reap what they sow.

How then do I understand Luke 20:36 "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."?

How do I understand Mark 12:25 "For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven."?

How do I understand Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."?

That is very simple. The angels are sustained of the power of God's spirit and we be as or equal to the angels in that. It would not even be necessary to mention that we wouldn't marry or be given in marriage if Jesus meant we would literally be angels. And so what he must have meant is that surely it is not a part of God's plan to overpopulate this earth once again as man has done in their ignorance of God. The present need to reproduce and train up children and independent families to this earth would no longer be needed, as we would all be as one and,"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28

Arguably, verses like 1 Timothy 6:16 do not of necessity preclude the angels as also having God's blessing of immortality upon the incorruptible faithfulness. Why? Consider:

1 Timothy 6: 15-16

15 which the happy and only Potentate (Jesus per Dan 7:14, see note below *) will show in its [or, his] own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, (Re 17:14; Re 19:16)

* Potentate is the Greek word, "dunastes", which means, a ruler or officer usually of a higher authority but as shown by it's root, "dunamai", it means, "a ruler or officer made possible by an even higher power. "dunamai" - "to be [made or equipped to be] able or possible."

16 the one alone having immortality (Hebrews 7:15, 16 identified as Jesus), who dwells in unapproachable light (God is that unapproachable light Jesus dwells in - 1 John 1:5; James 1:17), [that light] whom no man has seen or can see. To him (Jesus) be [given] honor and eternal might (Revelation 5:12).
Amen.

(It is as a result of that union Christ's shines brightly as the perfect image and reflection of his Father. Hebrews 1:3; Revelation 1:16, thus he is given that honor and eternal might from his Father by his union with him.)

Now, JW's 2013 edition of the NWT Bible, which I used above, identifies Jesus himself as that light "whom no man has seen or can see." They sight John 14:19 and 1Peter 3:18 as their proof.

I disagree, for Paul saw the light of Jesus and so did John, both as men. I therefore conclude that the unapproachable light Jesus dwells in is his Father per 1 John 1:5 and James 1:17.

But you will notice that I have attributed the last phrase to Jesus. That is because this phrase connects back to the thought of the one who dwells in that unapproachable light. And also because God need not be given his mightiness. And also because Jesus was worthy of being given that according to Revelation 5:12.
ChopChopSuey
Posts: 204
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4/10/2015 6:03:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
LOL. I forgot to clench my statement, "Arguably, verses like 1 Timothy 6:16 do not of necessity preclude the angels as also having God's blessing of immortality upon the incorruptible faithfulness. Why? Consider:"

In other words Jesus is King of kings an Lord of Lords as compared to others who wer among men. Specifically any earthly king or lord and especially those who were over Israel in the past.

So also his being the only one having immortality is being compared to men and has nothing to do with comparing him to angels as to whether they do or do not have immortality. Surely God is able to grant a promise to forever sustain them also by the worthiness of their perfected faithfulness. And so it may be true that angels do have immortality as God's blessing to their incorruptible faithfulness, at least any who had not succumbed to Satan. For I do know that the Scriptures do also tell us that Satan and his demons will be taken out of existence as signified by being tossed into that lake of fire at Revelation 20:10.
ChopChopSuey
Posts: 204
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4/16/2015 2:36:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/10/2015 6:59:38 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 4/10/2015 6:24:56 AM, ChopChopSuey wrote..........2 Corinthians 5:4 "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Gentorev responds.......... 2nd Corinthians 5: 4; "For we know that when this tent we live in---our body here on earth ----is torn down, God will have a house in heaven for us to live in, a home he himself has made, which will last forever. And now we sigh, so great is our desire that our home which comes from heaven should be put on over us; by being clothed with it we shall not be without a body. While we live in this earthly tent, we groan with a feeling of oppression; it is not that we want to get rid of our earthly body, but that we want to have the heavenly one put on over us.

Don't you believe that like Joseph who went into the land of "First born" to prepare a place for his brothers, our brother Jesus has gone ahead of us to prepare a place for us in heaven? And don't you believe that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven?

I will say more on this:

What Jesus actually said, was, In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." "John 14:2

Telling them, In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so", is like telling them simply not to worry but have faith.

Faith in what? That we will go to heaven? No. Faith that the Father has a place for us, irrespective of where that place is at we know it will be at that time a part of the Father's house.

So, were does a footstool reside but in your house at the foot of your chair.

Psalms 99:5 "Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy."

Isaiah 66:1 "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?"

So what then did Jesus mean, here: "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." John 14:3

He told us what he meant: John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."