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Be Glad Your a Hypocrite!

ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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4/11/2015 3:34:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
So that you can repent and be forgiven.

We all make mistakes, but that shouldn't bring us to insanity or depression when we can be redeemed.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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4/11/2015 3:48:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/11/2015 3:34:05 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
So that you can repent and be forgiven.

We all make mistakes, but that shouldn't bring us to insanity or depression when we can be redeemed.



Glad to see your back, CP.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
RuvDraba
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4/11/2015 3:53:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/11/2015 3:34:05 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
So that you can repent and be forgiven.
Or else we can understand that hypocrisy frequently arises from unacknowledged inner conflicts -- like wanting to be seen as good, yet feeling threatened, or vulnerable to criticism, or feeling that one doesn't have enough.

Repentance and forgiveness are Judaic constructs whose main purpose is to foster guilt and then relieve it, perhaps so that Jews could feel reconciled to the obedience and submission demanded by a strict and demanding god. Christians inherited and adapted this idea for European cultures, and the Arab, Persian and Turkish cultures that first adopted Islam also adapted it a slightly more Asiatic form, which is a bit more shame-based.

But the problems with guilt are that it's often disproportionate, and can be induced even if you've done nothing wrong.

Consider the guilt children feel over their parents arguing, for example.

Moreover, many hypocrites don't feel guilty in the first place, because they already have what they want: to look good while not acting as good as they look.

So if we want personal growth, I think we need both less and more than Christian guilt.

Honesty, courage, and compassion lead to wisdom, and with wisdom we have fewer inner conflicts, live with greater dignity, suffer less hypocrisy and less guilt.

Christianity teaches forms of honesty, courage and compassion too -- as do many faiths -- but I don't think they're clean forms.
ChristianPunk
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4/11/2015 3:55:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/11/2015 3:48:38 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 4/11/2015 3:34:05 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
So that you can repent and be forgiven.

We all make mistakes, but that shouldn't bring us to insanity or depression when we can be redeemed.



Glad to see your back, CP.

I've been here and there.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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4/11/2015 3:55:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/11/2015 3:55:01 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 4/11/2015 3:48:38 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 4/11/2015 3:34:05 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
So that you can repent and be forgiven.

We all make mistakes, but that shouldn't bring us to insanity or depression when we can be redeemed.



Glad to see your back, CP.

I've been here and there.

Lol, *you're*. oops.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
drpiek
Posts: 589
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4/11/2015 7:44:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/11/2015 3:53:54 PM, RuvDraba wrote:

Christianity teaches forms of honesty, courage and compassion too -- as do many faiths -- but I don't think they're clean forms.

How would you define them in clean form?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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4/11/2015 10:08:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/11/2015 3:34:05 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
So that you can repent and be forgiven.

We all make mistakes, but that shouldn't bring us to insanity or depression when we can be redeemed.



God's definition of a hypocrite:

Matthew 7
1: "Judge not, that you be not judged.
2: For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
3: Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4: Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?
5: You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
RuvDraba
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4/12/2015 4:22:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/11/2015 7:44:20 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 4/11/2015 3:53:54 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Christianity teaches forms of honesty, courage and compassion too -- as do many faiths -- but I don't think they're clean forms.
How would you define them in clean form?

I was wondering whether someone would ask that, Dr P, and I'm both unsurprised and glad you did. :)

Honesty, courage and compassion work fine outside theological frames. We can tell because, regardless of faith, every culture has simple and ancient words for these ideas, similar stories celebrating them, similar recognition criteria, and a similar sense of their worth.

So in other words, they are naturally humanistic qualities -- transcending theology. Whatever our faith, we can understand them because of the shared vicissitudes of the human condition.

But theology is full of paragons -- often doing great deeds, but also held doctrinally to be unsurpassable in their virtue. And it's a rare faith that lacks paragons of compassion, courage and honesty. So when we try and explore these qualities within a theology we already know what the answers will be: our compassion validates, emulates but is dwarfed by our paragon of compassion -- perhaps Jesus, or Guanyin. Our truth validates, emulates but is dwarfed by our paragon of truth -- Yhwh, perhaps, or the prophet Muhammad. Our courage validates, emulates but is dwarfed by the courage of the great martyrs, and so on. Theology likes to tell us that there's nothing more to learn about compassion, truth or courage than resides in its canon. So every personal experience becomes a rehearsal of something we've already learned.

Might we learn some insight from that anyway? Sure. One can learn some wisdom from religion, and it needn't all come at once.

Is that all the insight though? Well, the dogma ensures that if there is more insight to be learned, we probably won't learn it, because the faith is too busy co-opting our experiences in self-validation to let us learn whatever else there might be to learn.

And can all insight really be held in a few ancient myths?

Really?

Even if it can, must we really debase every nuance of our own experiences with doctrinal sycophancy? And if it can't, then what harm are we doing ourselves and others from insisting we already know all there is to know?

My conclusion: defining virtue in terms of dogmatic paragons can help us gain a basic education in virtue, but can also retard the development of wisdom.

Thanks for your question, Dr P. I hope that makes sense. :)
johnlubba
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4/12/2015 4:35:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 4:22:28 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/11/2015 7:44:20 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 4/11/2015 3:53:54 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Christianity teaches forms of honesty, courage and compassion too -- as do many faiths -- but I don't think they're clean forms.
How would you define them in clean form?

I was wondering whether someone would ask that, Dr P, and I'm both unsurprised and glad you did. :)

Honesty, courage and compassion work fine outside theological frames. We can tell because, regardless of faith, every culture has simple and ancient words for these ideas, similar stories celebrating them, similar recognition criteria, and a similar sense of their worth.

So in other words, they are naturally humanistic qualities -- transcending theology. Whatever our faith, we can understand them because of the shared vicissitudes of the human condition.

Please show the most ancient culture that didn't exist with some sort of religion, As far as I know, evidence of the oldest culture existed in Gobleki Tepi, recently discovered in turkey and thought to be 12000 years old, and they constructed religious structures. Therefore as far back as we have evidence for, they practiced some form of religion.


But theology is full of paragons -- often doing great deeds, but also held doctrinally to be unsurpassable in their virtue. And it's a rare faith that lacks paragons of compassion, courage and honesty. So when we try and explore these qualities within a theology we already know what the answers will be: our compassion validates, emulates but is dwarfed by our paragon of compassion -- perhaps Jesus, or Guanyin. Our truth validates, emulates but is dwarfed by our paragon of truth -- Yhwh, perhaps, or the prophet Muhammad. Our courage validates, emulates but is dwarfed by the courage of the great martyrs, and so on. Theology likes to tell us that there's nothing more to learn about compassion, truth or courage than resides in its canon. So every personal experience becomes a rehearsal of something we've already learned.

Might we learn some insight from that anyway? Sure. One can learn some wisdom from religion, and it needn't all come at once.

And that was the point in my other thread, you can learn some wisdom as indeed some wisdom is held religions. Although you may think that overall it causes more harm than good, I do not believe that the world would be better without it, as people seem to have a natural need to hold on to something, and if your remove all the something's, there might not be anything to hold onto.


Is that all the insight though? Well, the dogma ensures that if there is more insight to be learned, we probably won't learn it, because the faith is too busy co-opting our experiences in self-validation to let us learn whatever else there might be to learn.

And can all insight really be held in a few ancient myths?

Really?

Even if it can, must we really debase every nuance of our own experiences with doctrinal sycophancy? And if it can't, then what harm are we doing ourselves and others from insisting we already know all there is to know?

My conclusion: defining virtue in terms of dogmatic paragons can help us gain a basic education in virtue, but can also retard the development of wisdom.

Thanks for your question, Dr P. I hope that makes sense. :)
RuvDraba
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4/12/2015 6:14:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 4:35:46 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 4/12/2015 4:22:28 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
Honesty, courage and compassion work fine outside theological frames. We can tell because, regardless of faith, every culture has simple and ancient words for these ideas, similar stories celebrating them, similar recognition criteria, and a similar sense of their worth.

Please show the most ancient culture that didn't exist with some sort of religion,

Yes, ancient cultures do have some form of religion, but what do you conclude from that? That religion is good? (Really -- all religion?) Necessary? (Concluded how?) Or a product of using fear of a poorly-understood world to produce cultural cohesion and the rule of law?

If every culture had the same religion and near-identical beliefs, that would be significant indeed. But the diversity of religious beliefs also says something significant about revelation and the supernatural, namely that they're not objective.
dee-em
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4/12/2015 6:57:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 4:35:46 AM, johnlubba wrote:

Please show the most ancient culture that didn't exist with some sort of religion, As far as I know, evidence of the oldest culture existed in Gobleki Tepi, recently discovered in turkey and thought to be 12000 years old, and they constructed religious structures. Therefore as far back as we have evidence for, they practiced some form of religion.

12,000 years? That's nothing. The Australian aboriginal culture goes back 30,000 to 40,000 years. They had spiritual beliefs but no organized religion in the sense I think you mean.
johnlubba
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4/13/2015 11:10:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 6:14:21 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/12/2015 4:35:46 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 4/12/2015 4:22:28 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
Honesty, courage and compassion work fine outside theological frames. We can tell because, regardless of faith, every culture has simple and ancient words for these ideas, similar stories celebrating them, similar recognition criteria, and a similar sense of their worth.

Please show the most ancient culture that didn't exist with some sort of religion,

Yes, ancient cultures do have some form of religion, but what do you conclude from that? That religion is good? (Really -- all religion?) Necessary? (Concluded how?) Or a product of using fear of a poorly-understood world to produce cultural cohesion and the rule of law?

I must have mis- interpreted your earlier response and forgot the purpose of what I posted,


If every culture had the same religion and near-identical beliefs, that would be significant indeed. But the diversity of religious beliefs also says something significant about revelation and the supernatural, namely that they're not objective.

To add, I find it even more significant that diverse cultures have interpreted the objective world and reached very similar conclusions, mainly a higher power seems to exist, So maybe it is necessary, and indeed can also serve as a motivator for good.

And again, this is not shirking that it can also do bad, just the fact that as far back as we can go, there has been evidence of ancient cultures embracing some form of religion. Why? Because it fills a void, I think, and if you wave a magic wand and remove all religion, then perhaps most people are just left with a void.
DanneJeRusse
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4/13/2015 11:28:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/13/2015 11:10:42 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 4/12/2015 6:14:21 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/12/2015 4:35:46 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 4/12/2015 4:22:28 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
Honesty, courage and compassion work fine outside theological frames. We can tell because, regardless of faith, every culture has simple and ancient words for these ideas, similar stories celebrating them, similar recognition criteria, and a similar sense of their worth.

Please show the most ancient culture that didn't exist with some sort of religion,

Yes, ancient cultures do have some form of religion, but what do you conclude from that? That religion is good? (Really -- all religion?) Necessary? (Concluded how?) Or a product of using fear of a poorly-understood world to produce cultural cohesion and the rule of law?

I must have mis- interpreted your earlier response and forgot the purpose of what I posted,


If every culture had the same religion and near-identical beliefs, that would be significant indeed. But the diversity of religious beliefs also says something significant about revelation and the supernatural, namely that they're not objective.

To add, I find it even more significant that diverse cultures have interpreted the objective world and reached very similar conclusions, mainly a higher power seems to exist, So maybe it is necessary, and indeed can also serve as a motivator for good.

And again, this is not shirking that it can also do bad, just the fact that as far back as we can go, there has been evidence of ancient cultures embracing some form of religion. Why? Because it fills a void, I think, and if you wave a magic wand and remove all religion, then perhaps most people are just left with a void.

The "void" in question needs to be defined.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
RuvDraba
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4/13/2015 4:31:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/13/2015 11:10:42 AM, johnlubba wrote:
as far back as we can go, there has been evidence of ancient cultures embracing some form of religion. Why? Because it fills a void, I think

I think it endeavours to fill three, John: voids of ignorance, anxiety and the rule of law.

But those voids are better filled by knowledge, wisdom and justice, and each virtue can flourish with secular inquiry, or be stunted by paternalistic dogma.
johnlubba
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4/13/2015 4:58:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/13/2015 4:31:00 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/13/2015 11:10:42 AM, johnlubba wrote:
as far back as we can go, there has been evidence of ancient cultures embracing some form of religion. Why? Because it fills a void, I think

I think it endeavours to fill three, John: voids of ignorance, anxiety and the rule of law.

But those voids are better filled by knowledge, wisdom and justice, and each virtue can flourish with secular inquiry, or be stunted by paternalistic dogma.

I think there is timeless knowledge and wisdom in all major religions, I don't think secularism can hold a monopoly on justice, even without religion, extremism or fanaticism with still exist, at least in religion some good virtues are grounded.

I think it's safe to say you won't agree, but hey, that's the point of my arguement, there will always be people with different opinions, and people will always look to the heavens, to the transcendent. and to the numinousity in life, and it is my sincere belief that they should be entitled to.
DanneJeRusse
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4/13/2015 5:08:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/13/2015 4:58:14 PM, johnlubba wrote:
people will always look to the heavens, to the transcendent. and to the numinousity in life, and it is my sincere belief that they should be entitled to.

I completely agree with that and would stand by you anytime to uphold that freedom.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/13/2015 6:13:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/13/2015 4:58:14 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 4/13/2015 4:31:00 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/13/2015 11:10:42 AM, johnlubba wrote:
as far back as we can go, there has been evidence of ancient cultures embracing some form of religion. Why? Because it fills a void, I think

I think it endeavours to fill three, John: voids of ignorance, anxiety and the rule of law.
But those voids are better filled by knowledge, wisdom and justice, and each virtue can flourish with secular inquiry, or be stunted by paternalistic dogma.
I think there is timeless knowledge and wisdom in all major religions,
Some religious lore is clearly not timeless, since a great deal of it is debunked by objective inquiry. And much of it is unprovable conjecture, which means it's not knowledge at all. And any wisdom independent of faith is secular , since that's the definition of secular wisdom.

I don't think secularism can hold a monopoly on justice,
Consider: secular justice is based on objective human understanding, independent of faith. All religious law then is either a theologically-motivated application of secular justice, or else is seen as unjust somewhere outside religious belief.

Secular justice then is the standard for the justice of religious law.

even without religion, extremism or fanaticism with still exist, at least in religion some good virtues are grounded.
You're defending religious ignorance and bigotry by saying religion doesn't own all of it. That's true -- it doesn't. It just owns all the sanctification of ignorance and bigotry: all the celebration of the stupid, fearful and cruel that adherents compete over to be thought pious and metaphysically worthy. Nothing else owns that.

I fear that this subtopic belongs in the other thread though.