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A New Argument Against God

GeoLaureate8
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7/28/2010 5:26:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is one that I came up with on the fly in another thread and some have had their own criticisms of it, so I thought I'd give it its own thread.

Argument from Omnipresence and Non-Visibility

P1: If God exists, God is omnipresent.
P2: There exists photons of light visible to the eye.
P3: If God exists, God is present in visible light.
P4: God is not visible to us.
C: God does not exist.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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7/28/2010 6:40:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 5:26:23 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This is one that I came up with on the fly in another thread and some have had their own criticisms of it, so I thought I'd give it its own thread.

Argument from Omnipresence and Non-Visibility

P1: If God exists, God is omnipresent.
P2: There exists photons of light visible to the eye.
P3: If God exists, God is present in visible light.
P4: God is not visible to us.
C: God does not exist.

Like I said, he might exist on a plane or in a light spectrum that we cannot see.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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7/28/2010 6:43:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 5:26:23 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This is one that I came up with on the fly in another thread and some have had their own criticisms of it, so I thought I'd give it its own thread.

Argument from Omnipresence and Non-Visibility

P1: If God exists, God is omnipresent.
P2: There exists photons of light visible to the eye.
P3: If God exists, God is present in visible light.
P4: God is not visible to us.
C: God does not exist.

ugh...yes, both sides have their morons..
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/28/2010 6:46:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 6:43:35 PM, FREEDO wrote:
ugh...yes, both sides have their morons..

I made the argument on the fly. I didn't put much thought into. Second of all, you made no attempt to show how it's invalid. Your criticism is an ad hominem which makes you the moron.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/28/2010 6:47:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
To those who don't take omni-presence literally:

"God is everywhere. We cannot escape His presence." (Ps. 139:7-12)

"God fills the heaven and earth." (Jer. 23:23-24)
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
lovelife
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7/28/2010 6:49:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 6:47:53 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
To those who don't take omni-presence literally:

"God is everywhere. We cannot escape His presence." (Ps. 139:7-12)

"God fills the heaven and earth." (Jer. 23:23-24)

That doesn't prove we can see him. For all we know he's the oxygen we breathe.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
FREEDO
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7/28/2010 6:50:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 6:46:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/28/2010 6:43:35 PM, FREEDO wrote:
ugh...yes, both sides have their morons..

I made the argument on the fly. I didn't put much thought into. Second of all, you made no attempt to show how it's invalid. Your criticism is an ad hominem which makes you the moron.

I'm sorry, I completely skipped over the part that said you made it. I wouldn't have called you moron. Thought you were just quoting someone else and that the clear absurdity of it was as apparent enough as the other one so that I didn't need to explain why.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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7/28/2010 6:51:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 6:47:53 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
To those who don't take omni-presence literally:

"God is everywhere. We cannot escape His presence." (Ps. 139:7-12)

"God fills the heaven and earth." (Jer. 23:23-24)

We're talking about God, not Christianity specifically.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/28/2010 6:56:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 6:50:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Visible light isn't the only part of the EM spectrum.

I know that. But he is OMNIpresent, so he can't be absent from visible light photons.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/28/2010 6:57:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 6:51:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 7/28/2010 6:47:53 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
To those who don't take omni-presence literally:

"God is everywhere. We cannot escape His presence." (Ps. 139:7-12)

"God fills the heaven and earth." (Jer. 23:23-24)

We're talking about God, not Christianity specifically.

Sure, but omnipresence still applies to the non-Christian God as well. Besides I only care to refute the majority God which is the Christian God.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
belle
Posts: 4,113
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7/28/2010 7:57:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 6:56:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/28/2010 6:50:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Visible light isn't the only part of the EM spectrum.

I know that. But he is OMNIpresent, so he can't be absent from visible light photons.

dude how many times do i have to say it? lol. our inability to distinguish him from ordinary matter using just our eyes doesn't prove the fact that he's not omnipresent. it just proves that our eyes don't detect the difference. since our eyes don't detect very much, the argument loses much of its force.

again, you could say that he is in everything we see being omnipresent. our inability to detect him in everything doesn't prove that he doesn't exist- it only proves that whether or not he is there we can't detect him.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/28/2010 8:10:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 7:57:24 PM, belle wrote:
At 7/28/2010 6:56:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/28/2010 6:50:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Visible light isn't the only part of the EM spectrum.

I know that. But he is OMNIpresent, so he can't be absent from visible light photons.

dude how many times do i have to say it? lol. our inability to distinguish him from ordinary matter using just our eyes doesn't prove the fact that he's not omnipresent. it just proves that our eyes don't detect the difference. since our eyes don't detect very much, the argument loses much of its force.

again, you could say that he is in everything we see being omnipresent. our inability to detect him in everything doesn't prove that he doesn't exist- it only proves that whether or not he is there we can't detect him.

I was responding to Cody. You make a valid point, but not one that is relevant to my correction to Cody's statement. In other words, I effectively refuted Cody's point, even if your point is a valid one.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
belle
Posts: 4,113
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7/28/2010 8:20:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 8:10:48 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I was responding to Cody. You make a valid point, but not one that is relevant to my correction to Cody's statement. In other words, I effectively refuted Cody's point, even if your point is a valid one.

true. and i was responding to the thread in general. that statement was simply a convenient place to quote. why keep going on about the argument if its already been refuted? :P
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Cody_Franklin
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7/28/2010 8:21:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 6:56:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/28/2010 6:50:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Visible light isn't the only part of the EM spectrum.

I know that. But he is OMNIpresent, so he can't be absent from visible light photons.

Omnipresence means that he is present everywhere at all times (a bit of a logical problem in itself), but that in no way implies that he has to be part of the visible spectrum. If radiation is omnipresent, that means that radiation is everywhere - not that we can see it.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/28/2010 8:25:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 8:21:48 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Omnipresence means that he is present everywhere at all times (a bit of a logical problem in itself), but that in no way implies that he has to be part of the visible spectrum. If radiation is omnipresent, that means that radiation is everywhere - not that we can see it.

Ok, but there's photons of visible light. If God is omnipresent, he can't be absent from photons of visible light.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
lovelife
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7/28/2010 8:31:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 8:25:47 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/28/2010 8:21:48 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Omnipresence means that he is present everywhere at all times (a bit of a logical problem in itself), but that in no way implies that he has to be part of the visible spectrum. If radiation is omnipresent, that means that radiation is everywhere - not that we can see it.

Ok, but there's photons of visible light. If God is omnipresent, he can't be absent from photons of visible light.

Yeah he can. And even if he can't does that mean we would be able to recognize hime? No.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
wjmelements
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7/28/2010 8:31:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
You again misunderstand omnipresence. It's like stating:
1. If God exists, God is everywhere.
2. Empty space exists.
3. Nothing exists in empty space.
4. God is not in space.
5. God doesn't exist.

Exposure: If God is everywhere, then he is in the visible photons, and you are seeing him. You just don't identify that as God.

God isn't just everywhere though. He is among everything. He is immaterial; neither energy nor matter. We can neither conceive nor observe nor define him.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
mongeese
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7/28/2010 8:32:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 6:47:53 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
To those who don't take omni-presence literally:

"God is everywhere. We cannot escape His presence." (Ps. 139:7-12)

"God fills the heaven and earth." (Jer. 23:23-24)

You see, just because he's everywhere in the three spacial dimensions and the temporal dimension, doesn't mean he's also everywhere in the visible light spectrum. Sure, he's in photons, but that doesn't mean that the photons look any different. Given that God is in all photons, there's no distinguishing between photons with God and photons without God, so for all you know, God's presence in photons is what allows us to see in the first place.
Cody_Franklin
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7/28/2010 8:32:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 8:31:17 PM, wjmelements wrote:
You again misunderstand omnipresence. It's like stating:
1. If God exists, God is everywhere.
2. Empty space exists.
3. Nothing exists in empty space.
4. God is not in space.
5. God doesn't exist.

Exposure: If God is everywhere, then he is in the visible photons, and you are seeing him. You just don't identify that as God.

God isn't just everywhere though. He is among everything. He is immaterial; neither energy nor matter. We can neither conceive nor observe nor define him.

Thankfully, he was able to expose himself to enough people in the old days to ensure that they wrote the Bible.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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7/28/2010 8:33:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 8:25:47 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/28/2010 8:21:48 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Omnipresence means that he is present everywhere at all times (a bit of a logical problem in itself), but that in no way implies that he has to be part of the visible spectrum. If radiation is omnipresent, that means that radiation is everywhere - not that we can see it.

Ok, but there's photons of visible light. If God is omnipresent, he can't be absent from photons of visible light.

Present everywhere =/= present in all electromagnetic forms.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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7/28/2010 8:33:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 8:32:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 7/28/2010 8:31:17 PM, wjmelements wrote:
You again misunderstand omnipresence. It's like stating:
1. If God exists, God is everywhere.
2. Empty space exists.
3. Nothing exists in empty space.
4. God is not in space.
5. God doesn't exist.

Exposure: If God is everywhere, then he is in the visible photons, and you are seeing him. You just don't identify that as God.

God isn't just everywhere though. He is among everything. He is immaterial; neither energy nor matter. We can neither conceive nor observe nor define him.

Thankfully, he was able to expose himself to enough people in the old days to ensure that they wrote the Bible.

lol
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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7/28/2010 8:34:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 8:31:17 PM, wjmelements wrote:

God isn't just everywhere though. He is among everything. He is immaterial; neither energy nor matter. We can neither conceive nor observe nor define him.

Basically, I see it as God being part of essentially a different dimension from us, so that He and matter can occupy the same space without God actually being matter. Kind of like two polygons being inside of each other in 3D animation.
wjmelements
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7/28/2010 8:35:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 8:34:21 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 7/28/2010 8:31:17 PM, wjmelements wrote:

God isn't just everywhere though. He is among everything. He is immaterial; neither energy nor matter. We can neither conceive nor observe nor define him.

Basically, I see it as God being part of essentially a different dimension from us, so that He and matter can occupy the same space without God actually being matter. Kind of like two polygons being inside of each other in 3D animation.

I know what you mean. It's just really hard to verbalize.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
lovelife
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7/28/2010 8:39:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 8:35:20 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
I have another problem with divine omnipresence. That means that, when I start dating again, he'll be inside my girlfriend's vagina 24/7. Adulterous @sshole.

Omg that sick f*ck is in mine too then! Gross you pervert!
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Cerebral_Narcissist
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7/28/2010 11:28:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 5:26:23 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This is one that I came up with on the fly in another thread and some have had their own criticisms of it, so I thought I'd give it its own thread.

Argument from Omnipresence and Non-Visibility

P1: If God exists, God is omnipresent.
P2: There exists photons of light visible to the eye.
P3: If God exists, God is present in visible light.
P4: God is not visible to us.
C: God does not exist.

That is a joke argument right, you are spoofing someone right? Though you believe some crazy stuff you are surely far too intelligent to believe that the above is a valid argument against God?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
lovelife
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7/28/2010 11:29:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/28/2010 11:28:44 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/28/2010 5:26:23 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This is one that I came up with on the fly in another thread and some have had their own criticisms of it, so I thought I'd give it its own thread.

Argument from Omnipresence and Non-Visibility

P1: If God exists, God is omnipresent.
P2: There exists photons of light visible to the eye.
P3: If God exists, God is present in visible light.
P4: God is not visible to us.
C: God does not exist.

That is a joke argument right, you are spoofing someone right? Though you believe some crazy stuff you are surely far too intelligent to believe that the above is a valid argument against God?

He seems to.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave