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Come Up Here.

Rant
Posts: 1,674
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4/12/2015 3:37:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Varieties of theological positions on the timing of the rapture are floating around there in Greater Christendom. For instance, the position held by the emergent, postmodern "church", who view the rapture in general as 1) a mythical event constructed by ignorant fundamental Christians through an overzealous twisting of Scripture and 2) one believed by that group, known otherwise as the lunatic fringe of Christianity.
I'm using the term "church" loosely when I talk about the postmodern church, but hey, so did John in Revelation 3:14. The bulk of the evangelical world, however, is divided, as far as the timing of the rapture goes, into two camps: rapture occurring before the beginning of the tribulation (otherwise known as pre-trib), and rapture at the end of tribulation predictably known as post-trib).
Let's start from a birds-eye view. The Book of Revelation presents a timeline of endtime events, beginning with tribulation and ending with the final victory-of the Lamb over His enemies, as promised. It is this timeline in Revelation that enables us to figure out how all of the pieces of the prophetic picture scattered throughout the Old Testament books fit in, together giving us a wide-scope but also, detailed picture of the events prophesied to be our world to an end.

And Revelation begins with the state of the Church on earth (actually, in sequence, an entire timeline of church history, ending with the apostate church of Laodicea) followed by, in chronological sequence:

1. The opening of a door into heaven.

2. A command, from God, to "come up here."

3. Recognition of the Lamb as the source of redemption, followed by enthusiastic worship of the same

4. Jesus, the savior, being acknowledged as worthy to break the seals of the scroll.

Then Jesus takes the scroll -- that only He can open and breaks the first seal. And with the first seal, unleashes the Antichrist (the Imitation Christ) who, having signed the treaty which Daniel identifies as the official starting gun for tribulation (Daniel 9:27), is now free to begin the world conquest that was always his real intent. And he begins his quest for world domination by riding a white horse, in imitation of the Christ the Avenger of blood who will come to save His people in Revelation 19.

The Lord Jesus opens the first seal, and the antichrist, the imitation Christ, rides forth, and, with that, the tribulation begins. After the church is identified as being on earth and, after a door to heaven opens and God's voice says, "come up here." And-most intriguingly-- before the first seal of the tribulation is opened.

Not convinced? The rest of the book reiterates that the "Come up here" in Revelation 4, on the Revelation timeline, is, in fact, the rapture of the church. How can we tell? The next 15 chapters of Revelation.

Although the church is the absolute focus of the first three chapters of Revelation (before the "come up here"), mentioned, in fact 17 times in those three chapters, in the next 15 chapters of Revelation the church is completely and conspicuously absent. (Although Zion and Israel do appear, as do Judah, Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Napthali, Issachar, Asher, Gad , Benjamin, Manasseh, and Joseph). The church finally reappears, however, in Revelation Chapter 19, but they're not, as Hank Hanegraff would have us believe, enduring tribulation. To the contrary, the church is coming back to earth, with their bridegroom and Savior, as the purified and redeemed bride of Christ.

Past tense, done deal, fait accompli, as described in Revelation 19:

"Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints .... 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[e] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."

The armies in heaven, already purified, are clothed in fine linen (identifying them as the church vis-a-vis Revelation 19:8) and coming back now from heaven with their Savior and Lord. They follow Him out of heaven, not into heaven. So this is not the rapture. And Isaiah 65 identified the elect that are gathered at the end of tribulation as the remnant of Israel saved during the tribulation, not the church, as is often argued by the post-trib view.
And with that, the Revelation timeline of the church is complete. To recap: the church is the complete focus of Chapters 1-3, but then beckoned by God in Revelation 4 to "come up here". They are then totally absent from the events on earth laid out in chapters 5-18, reappearing only in chapter 19 of Revelation as the bride of Christ (having completed her bridal "week" of seven years) on her way the wedding feast described in Revelation 19:9.
The purpose of the tribulation is spelled out for us in Hosea 5:15 and it's not to purify the bride (who, as we saw above, has already purified and given, by her bridegroom, the garments of salvation).
It's to bring His chosen people back into His arms. According to the Lord himself, "I will return again to my place till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek my face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek me."
And they will. But the church will be watching that glorious day from the balcony!
Raisor
Posts: 4,461
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4/12/2015 6:02:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 3:37:50 PM, Rant wrote:
Varieties of theological positions on the timing of the rapture are floating around there in Greater Christendom. For instance, the position held by the emergent, postmodern "church", who view the rapture in general as 1) a mythical event constructed by ignorant fundamental Christians through an overzealous twisting of Scripture and 2) one believed by that group, known otherwise as the lunatic fringe of Christianity.
I'm using the term "church" loosely when I talk about the postmodern church, but hey, so did John in Revelation 3:14. The bulk of the evangelical world, however, is divided, as far as the timing of the rapture goes, into two camps: rapture occurring before the beginning of the tribulation (otherwise known as pre-trib), and rapture at the end of tribulation predictably known as post-trib).
Let's start from a birds-eye view. The Book of Revelation presents a timeline of endtime events, beginning with tribulation and ending with the final victory-of the Lamb over His enemies, as promised. It is this timeline in Revelation that enables us to figure out how all of the pieces of the prophetic picture scattered throughout the Old Testament books fit in, together giving us a wide-scope but also, detailed picture of the events prophesied to be our world to an end.

And Revelation begins with the state of the Church on earth (actually, in sequence, an entire timeline of church history, ending with the apostate church of Laodicea) followed by, in chronological sequence:

1. The opening of a door into heaven.

2. A command, from God, to "come up here."

3. Recognition of the Lamb as the source of redemption, followed by enthusiastic worship of the same

4. Jesus, the savior, being acknowledged as worthy to break the seals of the scroll.

Then Jesus takes the scroll -- that only He can open and breaks the first seal. And with the first seal, unleashes the Antichrist (the Imitation Christ) who, having signed the treaty which Daniel identifies as the official starting gun for tribulation (Daniel 9:27), is now free to begin the world conquest that was always his real intent. And he begins his quest for world domination by riding a white horse, in imitation of the Christ the Avenger of blood who will come to save His people in Revelation 19.

The Lord Jesus opens the first seal, and the antichrist, the imitation Christ, rides forth, and, with that, the tribulation begins. After the church is identified as being on earth and, after a door to heaven opens and God's voice says, "come up here." And-most intriguingly-- before the first seal of the tribulation is opened.

Not convinced? The rest of the book reiterates that the "Come up here" in Revelation 4, on the Revelation timeline, is, in fact, the rapture of the church. How can we tell? The next 15 chapters of Revelation.

Although the church is the absolute focus of the first three chapters of Revelation (before the "come up here"), mentioned, in fact 17 times in those three chapters, in the next 15 chapters of Revelation the church is completely and conspicuously absent. (Although Zion and Israel do appear, as do Judah, Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Napthali, Issachar, Asher, Gad , Benjamin, Manasseh, and Joseph). The church finally reappears, however, in Revelation Chapter 19, but they're not, as Hank Hanegraff would have us believe, enduring tribulation. To the contrary, the church is coming back to earth, with their bridegroom and Savior, as the purified and redeemed bride of Christ.

Past tense, done deal, fait accompli, as described in Revelation 19:

"Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints .... 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[e] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."

The armies in heaven, already purified, are clothed in fine linen (identifying them as the church vis-a-vis Revelation 19:8) and coming back now from heaven with their Savior and Lord. They follow Him out of heaven, not into heaven. So this is not the rapture. And Isaiah 65 identified the elect that are gathered at the end of tribulation as the remnant of Israel saved during the tribulation, not the church, as is often argued by the post-trib view.
And with that, the Revelation timeline of the church is complete. To recap: the church is the complete focus of Chapters 1-3, but then beckoned by God in Revelation 4 to "come up here". They are then totally absent from the events on earth laid out in chapters 5-18, reappearing only in chapter 19 of Revelation as the bride of Christ (having completed her bridal "week" of seven years) on her way the wedding feast described in Revelation 19:9.
The purpose of the tribulation is spelled out for us in Hosea 5:15 and it's not to purify the bride (who, as we saw above, has already purified and given, by her bridegroom, the garments of salvation).
It's to bring His chosen people back into His arms. According to the Lord himself, "I will return again to my place till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek my face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek me."
And they will. But the church will be watching that glorious day from the balcony!

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Rant
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4/12/2015 6:15:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
R>there is something that is never talked about the church being in heaven in rev 4 that all the cults that say no way the church goes to heaven and are building their kingdom on earth are the crowns. It totally blows the apostates out of the water when you read about the crowns of the church when they get to heaven. But for most on this forum its over their heads. They cant even understand they are going to HELL!
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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4/12/2015 10:24:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 6:15:51 PM, Rant wrote:
R>there is something that is never talked about the church being in heaven in rev 4 that all the cults that say no way the church goes to heaven and are building their kingdom on earth are the crowns. It totally blows the apostates out of the water when you read about the crowns of the church when they get to heaven. But for most on this forum its over their heads. They cant even understand they are going to HELL! : :

There's no such place called HELL. All the flesh of this world dies in this world that will end up being melted in the lake of fire, which is when the hot molten lava bursts through the crust of this earth on the last day of this age and melts the entire crust into hot lava. The earth will look like a ball of molten lava from a few thousand miles away. This will end the Heaven and Earth that we know today. A New Heaven and Earth will appear by the created beings who get to observe it from their new flesh.

2 Peter 3
10: But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.
11: Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
12: waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire!
13: But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Revelation 21
1: Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
8: But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

Zephaniah 1
18: Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them on the day of the wrath of the LORD. In the fire of his jealous wrath, all the earth shall be consumed; for a full, yea, sudden end he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Jeremiah 4
22: "For my people are foolish, they know me not; they are stupid children, they have no understanding. They are skilled in doing evil, but how to do good they know not."
23: I looked on the earth, and lo, it was waste and void; and to the heaven, and they had no light.
24: I looked on the mountains, and lo, they were quaking, and all the hills moved to and fro.
25: I looked, and lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the air had fled.
26: I looked, and lo, the fruitful land was a desert, and all its cities were laid in ruins before the LORD, before his fierce anger.
27: For thus says the LORD, "The whole land shall be a desolation; yet I will not make a full end.
28: For this the earth shall mourn, and the heavens above be black; for I have spoken, I have purposed; I have not relented nor will I turn back."

Ezekiel 22
19: Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you have all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.
20: As men gather silver and bronze and iron and lead and tin into a furnace, to blow the fire upon it in order to melt it; so I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath, and I will put you in and melt you.
21: I will gather you and blow upon you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in the midst of it.
22: As silver is melted in a furnace, so you shall be melted in the midst of it; and you shall know that I the LORD have poured out my wrath upon you."
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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4/13/2015 12:09:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 6:15:51 PM, Rant wrote:
R>there is something that is never talked about the church being in heaven in rev 4 that all the cults that say no way the church goes to heaven and are building their kingdom on earth are the crowns. It totally blows the apostates out of the water when you read about the crowns of the church when they get to heaven. But for most on this forum its over their heads. They cant even understand they are going to HELL!

My advice would be for you to cease trying to interpret prophesy for us. Premillennialists are notable failures when it comes to that.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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4/13/2015 9:05:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/13/2015 12:09:14 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/12/2015 6:15:51 PM, Rant wrote:
R>there is something that is never talked about the church being in heaven in rev 4 that all the cults that say no way the church goes to heaven and are building their kingdom on earth are the crowns. It totally blows the apostates out of the water when you read about the crowns of the church when they get to heaven. But for most on this forum its over their heads. They cant even understand they are going to HELL!

My advice would be for you to cease trying to interpret prophesy for us. Premillennialists are notable failures when it comes to that. : :

NONE of God's chosen believers and antichrists have any authority by Him to interpret the prophecies but His people do NOT listen to His Voice or obey any of His commandments. This is why their interpretations are so radically different from each other and keeps them confused to what the Truth is.

Only us saints are used to testify to the knowledge of God and learn the past, present and future. From this knowledge of God that we possess, we can read the prophecies and understand them. Without having this knowledge revealed to you, it's impossible for you to understand the deeper meanings of the prophecies or put them all together and see the whole story about the future.