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The Mystery

anonymouswho
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4/16/2015 10:15:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
This post is primarily for Atheist and Agnostics. I would like to share the Gospel with you. I have read through several of these forums, and see there are several Atheist who are very adamant about their beliefs. The purpose of this post is to have a very logical and coherent discussion about the Truth of the Gospel.

First I will share the Gospel with you. For those who still don't believe, I would like to discuss the logical basis by which it is a preeminent probability that God exist (this of course is evidence of a creator, not explicitly the God of Scripture). If a clear understanding that God probably exist is made, suggested, or even entertained, I would like to discuss the probability that the God of Scripture is the One True God. If no conclusion is made, thank you for your time. I do not wish to argue, only to answer any questions or objections you may have.

Here is the Gospel. This is the True Good News of Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus the Christ), the Gospel that the Apostles have given us record of. I will capitalize words I would like to emphasize, so please take a few minutes to read the material I'm posting. Thank you.

"Having made known unto us the MYSTERY of HIS WILL, according to HIS GOOD PLEASURE which he hath PURPOSED IN HIMSELF:
That in the dispensation of the FULNESS OF TIMES he might gather TOGETHER IN ONE ALL THINGS in Christ, both which are IN HEAVEN, and which are ON EARTH; even in him:
In whom also we have OBTAINED an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the PURPOSE of HIM who WORKETH ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who FIRST trusted in Christ." Ephesians 1:9

The mystery that God has revealed to us is that at the end of all ages, He is going to gather together ALL things in Messiah. We who believe only do so because He has predestined us to believe. That is why no matter how many times we may discuss this, unless He has given you ears to hear and eyes to see, you will never understand. Don't worry, you're not alone. Probably 90% of the population doesn't understand. That's okay though, because in the end 100% of everyone who has ever lived will believe. This isn't just about "believing in God" but rather "believing God". God is omniscient. He knows ALL things. He is both ABLE and WILLING that all mankind be saved.

"For this is GOOD and ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Saviour;
WHO WILL HAVE ALL men to be SAVED, and to COME unto the KNOWLEDGE of THE TRUTH.
For there is ONE God, and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a RANSOM for ALL, to be testified in DUE TIME." 1 Timothy 2:3

This verse tells us that it is God's Will that ALL men be saved. When God "Wills" something to happen, we can be absolutely sure it will come about.

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is NONE ELSE; I am God, and there is NONE LIKE ME,
Declaring the END from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times the things that are NOT YET DONE, saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE:" Isaiah 46:9

"For MY THOUGHTS are NOT YOUR THOUGHTS, neither are YOUR WAYS MY WAYS, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are MY WAYS HIGHER than YOUR WAYS, and MY THOUGHTS than YOUR THOUGHTS.
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
So shall MY WORD be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall NOT RETURN unto me VOID, but it SHALL ACCOMPLISH that which I PLEASE, and it SHALL PROSPER in the THING whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:8

God sends His Word out into the world with a specific purpose, and He confirms to us that His Word will do everything He sends it to do. What is God's Word?

"And the WORD was MADE FLESH, and DWELT AMONG US.." John 1:14

God's Word became flesh and came to the world at the appointed time. He came for one specific purpose, which John the Baptist exclaims the moment he sees Him.

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY the SIN of THE WORLD." John 1:29

Yeshua is the Word of God, and He came to take away the sin of the entire world. I assure you He accomplished this task. This assignment was so important to God that He swears on Himself that it would be accomplished.

"I have SWORN by MYSELF, the WORD is gone out of my mouth in RIGHTEOUSNESS, and shall NOT RETURN, That unto me EVERY knee shall BOW, EVERY tongue shall SWEAR." Isaiah 45:23

There is no such place as some mythical, disgusting, God-degrading hell. There is Gehenna Fire but we can discuss this later as it gets very deep. It is not eternal, it is Aionios (Eonion or Concerning the Age). The life that Yeshua promised us who believe is also not eternal (God alone is eternal), it is Aionios Zoe (life unto the age).

"And THIS IS LIFE ETERNAL, that they might KNOW THEE the ONLY TRUE GOD, and JESUS CHRIST, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Thank you for taking the time to read this. May God bless you with all Wisdom and Truth.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,560
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4/16/2015 10:29:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 10:15:09 AM, anonymouswho wrote:

The mystery that God has revealed to us is that at the end of all ages, He is going to gather together ALL things in Messiah. We who believe only do so because He has predestined us to believe. That is why no matter how many times we may discuss this, unless He has given you ears to hear and eyes to see, you will never understand. Don't worry, you're not alone. Probably 90% of the population doesn't understand.

Most everyone on the planet have eyes and ears, although a small portion of the population were born with their eyes and ears not functioning properly. Are those the people to whom you refer? Are the blind and the deaf the ones who don't understand? That would seem rather unfair of God to do such a thing. Why would God do that?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Preceptor
Posts: 49
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4/16/2015 12:44:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 10:29:15 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Most everyone on the planet have eyes and ears, although a small portion of the population were born with their eyes and ears not functioning properly. Are those the people to whom you refer? Are the blind and the deaf the ones who don't understand? That would seem rather unfair of God to do such a thing. Why would God do that?

He is referring to this statement spoken by Christ:

Matthew 13:15 "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

He also is referring to God causing people to not see or hear the truth of the gospel, even Jews:

Romans 11:8 "(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day."

This not referring to being physically blind or physically deaf but anyone who has shut out the truth for their own knowledge and what their heart craves to hear and see instead of God.

So, Is God cruel to not allow people to find Him and understand His truth? God makes it clear how to find Him and His truth so that you should not be blind and deaf:

Revelation 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

Christ is referring to buy gold from Him, not gold of this earth but the riches like unto gold of His Word and grace. Once one has admitted their shame and humbled themselves in admittance of their sin then Christ may forgive them and heal them so that they may see and hear.

Once that happens Christ says:

Matthew 13:16 "But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

And:

John 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,560
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4/16/2015 12:52:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 12:44:51 PM, Preceptor wrote:
At 4/16/2015 10:29:15 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Most everyone on the planet have eyes and ears, although a small portion of the population were born with their eyes and ears not functioning properly. Are those the people to whom you refer? Are the blind and the deaf the ones who don't understand? That would seem rather unfair of God to do such a thing. Why would God do that?

He is referring to this statement spoken by Christ:

Matthew 13:15 "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

He also is referring to God causing people to not see or hear the truth of the gospel, even Jews:

That seems rather odd, God provides people with eyes and ears and then proceeds to turn them off. Is that some sort of a cruel joke by God?

Romans 11:8 "(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day."

This not referring to being physically blind or physically deaf but anyone who has shut out the truth for their own knowledge and what their heart craves to hear and see instead of God.

I have never heard nor seen God, hence there is nothing to shut out. If God decided to show Himself to the world, we would all have no choice but to accept Him.

That has never happened, though. All we have are the words of men written in a book, that isn't God.

So, Is God cruel to not allow people to find Him and understand His truth? God makes it clear how to find Him and His truth so that you should not be blind and deaf:

Sorry, but God does no make it clear at all. He simply has to show Himself to everyone in order to make it sparkling crystal clear.

That has never happened.

Revelation 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

Christ is referring to buy gold from Him, not gold of this earth but the riches like unto gold of His Word and grace. Once one has admitted their shame and humbled themselves in admittance of their sin then Christ may forgive them and heal them so that they may see and hear.

Once that happens Christ says:

Matthew 13:16 "But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

And:

John 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

My eyes and ears are open to truth. So, where is God? Show Him to me.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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4/16/2015 12:55:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

Thank you for taking the time to read this. May God bless you with all Wisdom and Truth.

I guess I thank you for the effort, but don't know what your intent was.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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4/16/2015 1:00:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You do realise atheists don't take the bible as a valid source of truth, don't you? Repeating the claim is not going to convince us any more than the first thousand times we heard it.
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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4/16/2015 1:21:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 10:29:15 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 4/16/2015 10:15:09 AM, anonymouswho wrote:

The mystery that God has revealed to us is that at the end of all ages, He is going to gather together ALL things in Messiah. We who believe only do so because He has predestined us to believe. That is why no matter how many times we may discuss this, unless He has given you ears to hear and eyes to see, you will never understand. Don't worry, you're not alone. Probably 90% of the population doesn't understand.

Most everyone on the planet have eyes and ears, although a small portion of the population were born with their eyes and ears not functioning properly. Are those the people to whom you refer? Are the blind and the deaf the ones who don't understand? That would seem rather unfair of God to do such a thing. Why would God do that?

Great question, thanks for replying to my post. It seems as though metaphors and figurative language will be mocked at so hopefully I can explain this a little better. Obviously everyone has eyes and everyone has ears, but I speak of receiving the information your eyes and ears give you to process and understand Truth. "What is truth?" asked Pilot. Hopefully we can come to a decisive conclusion of what Truth is.

You are correct that it would "SEEM rather unfair" of God to not give this knowledge to everyone, but that is the foolishness of the Gospel.

"For the PREACHING of the cross is to them that perish FOOLISHNESS; but unto us which are saved it is the POWER of God.
For it is written, I will DESTROY the WISDOM of the wise, and will bring to NOTHING the UNDERSTANDING of the prudent.
Where is the WISE? where is the SCRIBE? where is the DISPUTER of this world? hath not God made FOOLISH the WISDOM of this WORLD?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING to save them that believe.
For the Jews REQUIRE A SIGN, and the Greeks SEEK AFTER WISDOM:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a STUMBLING BLOCK, and unto the Greeks FOOLISHNESS;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the POWER of God, and the WISDOM of God.
Because the FOOLISHNESS of GOD is WISER than MEN; and the WEAKNESS of GOD is STRONGER than MEN." 1 Corinthians 1:18

Everything that happens is God's Will. I will discuss this later but for now I'd like to address your question. "Why would God do that?". The first thing we have to understand is that religion is always making claims to fulfill some sort of purpose in our lives, to give our lives meaning. However, the Scriptures tell us unequivocally that our petty lives are meaningless.

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity." Ecclesiastes 1:2

Although our lives are meaningless, God does have an overall purpose as described above. So then why has He blinded some?

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." Matthew 13:13

God Himself has done this, otherwise the whole world will repent and turn to Him. He doesn't want that to happen yet. He has set a delusion upon the entire world.

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thessalonians 2:11

This strong delusion that God has put upon the world is that demonic fable of "free will". Earlier in Thessalonians we read that the delusion is the one-

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 2 Thessalonians 2:4

Paul only uses the analogy of the temple to describe the Body of Messiah, which is made up of the believers. The belief of free will sits in that temple, exhaling itself above God, claiming it can somehow thwart the will of God. But this is a discussion for later times; the point is God Himself has done all of this.

Therefore because our lives are meaningless and we have no free will, we are commanded not to judge, because we do the same things we accuse others. Christians like to think that they are smarter than others and have figured out themselves the Truth, but they have received nothing that God hasn't given to them, so that we are no different than the unbeliever.

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL AND upon all them that believe: for there is NO DIFFERENCE: For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:22

Evil is present and we all acknowledge this. But what is the purpose of Evil? The Fundamental Christian answer us "because of free will" (see God is NOT Dead movie), however the truth is, God Himself has created Evil.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

The word for "evil" in this passage comes from the Hebrew "ra". It definitely means Evil, as in the Knowledge of Good and Evil (ra). Evil is bad, I'm sure we can all agree, but it does serve a very specific purpose in God's Plan. Hidden away in our butchered translations of the Bible is the reason for evil.

"And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail (Hebrew ra-evil) hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (Hebrew anah- humbled) therewith." Ecclesiastes 1:13

The purpose of Evil is to humble mankind; so that in the end we may all stand guilty before God. So why would God want us to stand guilty before Him?

"For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL." Romans 11:32

"...and mercy rejoiceth against judgment." James 2:13

It is the Mercy of God that will cause the entire world to bow and confess that He is God. He will destroy Death and in the end-

"...when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." Isaiah 26:9

God bless you my friend.
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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4/16/2015 1:33:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:00:41 PM, Graincruncher wrote:
You do realise atheists don't take the bible as a valid source of truth, don't you? Repeating the claim is not going to convince us any more than the first thousand times we heard it.

Yes I am definitely aware of this. I'm only sharing the True Gospel with you. Please understand that I'm not using the Bible as though it should hold any authority over you, but simply because the Word of God is so much better at explaining things than I could. I'm trying to show you verses that perhaps you never knew were in the Scriptures. I myself had read them for years and couldn't see the Truth. I'm not asking that you take MY word as final authority, as though I should know anything, for we are all petty men thrown into this world with no prior acknowledgement from ourselves. We should all consider ourselves to know nothing. I only ask that you call me out should I contradict myself. I think you will find that we agree on a lot of thing. God bless you.
Preceptor
Posts: 49
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4/16/2015 1:37:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 12:52:58 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

He also is referring to God causing people to not see or hear the truth of the gospel, even Jews:

That seems rather odd, God provides people with eyes and ears and then proceeds to turn them off. Is that some sort of a cruel joke by God?

It is more like a child who rejects their parents instruction to their own demise and the parent must allow them to go their own way to fail. The parent cannot and should not intercede in their free choices once the child is capable and able to make decisions of their own. It is not cruel by any means. It is the choice of the child. Men are giving the abilities to hear and see yet they refuse too.

Romans 11:8 "(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day."

This not referring to being physically blind or physically deaf but anyone who has shut out the truth for their own knowledge and what their heart craves to hear and see instead of God.

I have never heard nor seen God, hence there is nothing to shut out. If God decided to show Himself to the world, we would all have no choice but to accept Him.

God has showed Himself and you saw not. You have seen God and rationalized Him away. Therefore your eyes remain blind and your ears deaf and God keeps them that way until you humble yourself before Him.

That has never happened, though. All we have are the words of men written in a book, that isn't God.

That is all you can say and all you can understand and hence you know not truth nor understanding, blind and deaf. The "BOOK" is not by men but by the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

So, Is God cruel to not allow people to find Him and understand His truth? God makes it clear how to find Him and His truth so that you should not be blind and deaf:

Sorry, but God does no make it clear at all. He simply has to show Himself to everyone in order to make it sparkling crystal clear.

It is clear to me because I have humbled myself wholly and completely and my eyes opened and my ears hear. I have no doubt it is not clear to you and I can not make it clear to you, only God can do that. How can that be done? By your humbling and seeking Him.

That has never happened.

I say it has and have many witnesses to agree. In fact God says:

Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"

Revelation 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

Christ is referring to buy gold from Him, not gold of this earth but the riches like unto gold of His Word and grace. Once one has admitted their shame and humbled themselves in admittance of their sin then Christ may forgive them and heal them so that they may see and hear.

Once that happens Christ says:

Matthew 13:16 "But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

And:

John 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

My eyes and ears are open to truth. So, where is God? Show Him to me.

This like a child saying "give me, give me" or a lazy person who sits around and expects to be given things without doing the work to earn them. Men cannot show you God. You must seek God and He shall show Himself to you. But, you are to wise to do that, right? It is foolishness to you, correct?

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Graincruncher
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4/16/2015 1:38:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:33:54 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/16/2015 1:00:41 PM, Graincruncher wrote:
You do realise atheists don't take the bible as a valid source of truth, don't you? Repeating the claim is not going to convince us any more than the first thousand times we heard it.

Yes I am definitely aware of this. I'm only sharing the True Gospel with you. Please understand that I'm not using the Bible as though it should hold any authority over you, but simply because the Word of God is so much better at explaining things than I could. I'm trying to show you verses that perhaps you never knew were in the Scriptures. I myself had read them for years and couldn't see the Truth. I'm not asking that you take MY word as final authority, as though I should know anything, for we are all petty men thrown into this world with no prior acknowledgement from ourselves. We should all consider ourselves to know nothing. I only ask that you call me out should I contradict myself. I think you will find that we agree on a lot of thing. God bless you.

Fair enough. I can only commend your tone and conduct. I just don't think you're going to get the results you want. All the best, though.
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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4/16/2015 1:39:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 12:55:12 PM, TBR wrote:

Thank you for taking the time to read this. May God bless you with all Wisdom and Truth.

I guess I thank you for the effort, but don't know what your intent was.

My intent is only to share with you the True Gospel so that you might experience Aionios Life yourself, and mostly to clear up misconceptions about the blasphemy of hell and evil.
Preceptor
Posts: 49
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4/16/2015 1:40:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:39:00 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/16/2015 12:55:12 PM, TBR wrote:

Thank you for taking the time to read this. May God bless you with all Wisdom and Truth.

I guess I thank you for the effort, but don't know what your intent was.

My intent is only to share with you the True Gospel so that you might experience Aionios Life yourself, and mostly to clear up misconceptions about the blasphemy of hell and evil.

Blasphemy of hell and evil?
TBR
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4/16/2015 1:40:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

My intent is only to share with you the True Gospel so that you might experience Aionios Life yourself, and mostly to clear up misconceptions about the blasphemy of hell and evil.

Its a little presumptuous to think most people who identify as atheists have no knowledge of the Gospels.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,560
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4/16/2015 1:42:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:21:12 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/16/2015 10:29:15 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 4/16/2015 10:15:09 AM, anonymouswho wrote:

The mystery that God has revealed to us is that at the end of all ages, He is going to gather together ALL things in Messiah. We who believe only do so because He has predestined us to believe. That is why no matter how many times we may discuss this, unless He has given you ears to hear and eyes to see, you will never understand. Don't worry, you're not alone. Probably 90% of the population doesn't understand.

Most everyone on the planet have eyes and ears, although a small portion of the population were born with their eyes and ears not functioning properly. Are those the people to whom you refer? Are the blind and the deaf the ones who don't understand? That would seem rather unfair of God to do such a thing. Why would God do that?

Great question, thanks for replying to my post. It seems as though metaphors and figurative language will be mocked at so hopefully I can explain this a little better. Obviously everyone has eyes and everyone has ears, but I speak of receiving the information your eyes and ears give you to process and understand Truth. "What is truth?" asked Pilot. Hopefully we can come to a decisive conclusion of what Truth is.

That's easy, Truth is that which is in accordance with fact or reality. Do you agree?

You are correct that it would "SEEM rather unfair" of God to not give this knowledge to everyone, but that is the foolishness of the Gospel.

That's probably why the vast majority of the people on the planet reject the Gospels.

"For the PREACHING of the cross is to them that perish FOOLISHNESS; but unto us which are saved it is the POWER of God.
For it is written, I will DESTROY the WISDOM of the wise, and will bring to NOTHING the UNDERSTANDING of the prudent.
Where is the WISE? where is the SCRIBE? where is the DISPUTER of this world? hath not God made FOOLISH the WISDOM of this WORLD?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING to save them that believe.
For the Jews REQUIRE A SIGN, and the Greeks SEEK AFTER WISDOM:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a STUMBLING BLOCK, and unto the Greeks FOOLISHNESS;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the POWER of God, and the WISDOM of God.
Because the FOOLISHNESS of GOD is WISER than MEN; and the WEAKNESS of GOD is STRONGER than MEN." 1 Corinthians 1:18

Everything that happens is God's Will.

Does that include things like disease, cancer, wars, rape, murder, tsunamis?

I will discuss this later but for now I'd like to address your question. "Why would God do that?". The first thing we have to understand is that religion is always making claims to fulfill some sort of purpose in our lives, to give our lives meaning. However, the Scriptures tell us unequivocally that our petty lives are meaningless.

That could be the reason why so many people reject Scriptures. Most people find meaning to their lives themselves.

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity." Ecclesiastes 1:2

Although our lives are meaningless, God does have an overall purpose as described above.

Sorry, I must have missed that, what purpose does God have for us?

So then why has He blinded some?

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." Matthew 13:13

God Himself has done this, otherwise the whole world will repent and turn to Him. He doesn't want that to happen yet. He has set a delusion upon the entire world.

That makes no sense, it seems like a very cruel joke on Gods part to do such a thing.

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thessalonians 2:11

This strong delusion that God has put upon the world is that demonic fable of "free will". Earlier in Thessalonians we read that the delusion is the one-

There is no free will, there is only the will of the person to do something.

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 2 Thessalonians 2:4

Paul only uses the analogy of the temple to describe the Body of Messiah, which is made up of the believers. The belief of free will sits in that temple, exhaling itself above God, claiming it can somehow thwart the will of God. But this is a discussion for later times; the point is God Himself has done all of this.

And yet, it's very easy to see through that thinly veiled delusion. Doesn't seem very smart or practical.

Therefore because our lives are meaningless and we have no free will, we are commanded not to judge, because we do the same things we accuse others. Christians like to think that they are smarter than others and have figured out themselves the Truth, but they have received nothing that God hasn't given to them, so that we are no different than the unbeliever.


"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL AND upon all them that believe: for there is NO DIFFERENCE: For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:22

Evil is present and we all acknowledge this. But what is the purpose of Evil? The Fundamental Christian answer us "because of free will" (see God is NOT Dead movie), however the truth is, God Himself has created Evil.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

The word for "evil" in this passage comes from the Hebrew "ra". It definitely means Evil, as in the Knowledge of Good and Evil (ra). Evil is bad, I'm sure we can all agree, but it does serve a very specific purpose in God's Plan. Hidden away in our butchered translations of the Bible is the reason for evil.

"And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail (Hebrew ra-evil) hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (Hebrew anah- humbled) therewith." Ecclesiastes 1:13

The purpose of Evil is to humble mankind; so that in the end we may all stand guilty before God. So why would God want us to stand guilty before Him?

"For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL." Romans 11:32

"...and mercy rejoiceth against judgment." James 2:13

It is the Mercy of God that will cause the entire world to bow and confess that He is God. He will destroy Death and in the end-

"...when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." Isaiah 26:9

God bless you my friend.

Sorry, but your explanation doesn't really make sense. God seems to have created a process of delusion only to have the world confess that He is God.

Why not just show Himself to the world? Clearly, His process has failed to work.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
bulproof
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4/16/2015 1:44:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:37:22 PM, Preceptor wrote:
At 4/16/2015 12:52:58 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

He also is referring to God causing people to not see or hear the truth of the gospel, even Jews:

That seems rather odd, God provides people with eyes and ears and then proceeds to turn them off. Is that some sort of a cruel joke by God?

It is more like a child who rejects their parents instruction to their own demise and the parent must allow them to go their own way to fail. The parent cannot and should not intercede in their free choices once the child is capable and able to make decisions of their own. It is not cruel by any means. It is the choice of the child. Men are giving the abilities to hear and see yet they refuse too.

Romans 11:8 "(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day."

This not referring to being physically blind or physically deaf but anyone who has shut out the truth for their own knowledge and what their heart craves to hear and see instead of God.

I have never heard nor seen God, hence there is nothing to shut out. If God decided to show Himself to the world, we would all have no choice but to accept Him.

God has showed Himself and you saw not. You have seen God and rationalized Him away. Therefore your eyes remain blind and your ears deaf and God keeps them that way until you humble yourself before Him.

That has never happened, though. All we have are the words of men written in a book, that isn't God.

That is all you can say and all you can understand and hence you know not truth nor understanding, blind and deaf. The "BOOK" is not by men but by the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

So, Is God cruel to not allow people to find Him and understand His truth? God makes it clear how to find Him and His truth so that you should not be blind and deaf:

Sorry, but God does no make it clear at all. He simply has to show Himself to everyone in order to make it sparkling crystal clear.

It is clear to me because I have humbled myself wholly and completely and my eyes opened and my ears hear. I have no doubt it is not clear to you and I can not make it clear to you, only God can do that. How can that be done? By your humbling and seeking Him.

That has never happened.

I say it has and have many witnesses to agree. In fact God says:

Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"

Revelation 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

Christ is referring to buy gold from Him, not gold of this earth but the riches like unto gold of His Word and grace. Once one has admitted their shame and humbled themselves in admittance of their sin then Christ may forgive them and heal them so that they may see and hear.

Once that happens Christ says:

Matthew 13:16 "But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

And:

John 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

My eyes and ears are open to truth. So, where is God? Show Him to me.

This like a child saying "give me, give me" or a lazy person who sits around and expects to be given things without doing the work to earn them. Men cannot show you God. You must seek God and He shall show Himself to you. But, you are to wise to do that, right? It is foolishness to you, correct?

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

What does your god look like?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
anonymouswho
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4/16/2015 1:47:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:40:53 PM, TBR wrote:

My intent is only to share with you the True Gospel so that you might experience Aionios Life yourself, and mostly to clear up misconceptions about the blasphemy of hell and evil.

Its a little presumptuous to think most people who identify as atheists have no knowledge of the Gospels.

You are correct that it is presumptuous to think Atheist have no knowledge of the Gospel. However, I am saying that there is a True Gospel that Fundamental Christianity does not teach, that Yeshua is the Savior of ALL men. If you know this Gospel then I ask, Why would you reject this? An eternal hell is not possible and God (the Creator of everything star, galaxy, and molecule) is going to Reconcile the entire world to Himself. We will all live forever because He will destroy Death. Do you not see any Truth in this?
bulproof
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4/16/2015 1:49:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:47:31 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/16/2015 1:40:53 PM, TBR wrote:

My intent is only to share with you the True Gospel so that you might experience Aionios Life yourself, and mostly to clear up misconceptions about the blasphemy of hell and evil.

Its a little presumptuous to think most people who identify as atheists have no knowledge of the Gospels.

You are correct that it is presumptuous to think Atheist have no knowledge of the Gospel. However, I am saying that there is a True Gospel that Fundamental Christianity does not teach, that Yeshua is the Savior of ALL men. If you know this Gospel then I ask, Why would you reject this? An eternal hell is not possible and God (the Creator of everything star, galaxy, and molecule) is going to Reconcile the entire world to Himself. We will all live forever because He will destroy Death. Do you not see any Truth in this?

So what is he saving us from?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
anonymouswho
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4/16/2015 1:50:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:40:47 PM, Preceptor wrote:
At 4/16/2015 1:39:00 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/16/2015 12:55:12 PM, TBR wrote:

Thank you for taking the time to read this. May God bless you with all Wisdom and Truth.

I guess I thank you for the effort, but don't know what your intent was.

My intent is only to share with you the True Gospel so that you might experience Aionios Life yourself, and mostly to clear up misconceptions about the blasphemy of hell and evil.

Blasphemy of hell and evil?

Thank you Preceptor, for joining this discussion. Yes I will explain hell later. I will try to answer all these questions but it's kind of hard to keep up. Please read what I said about Yeshua being the Savior of ALL and then we will look at the Scriptures about hell and see if we can reconcile all this together. God bless.
TBR
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4/16/2015 1:52:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

You are correct that it is presumptuous to think Atheist have no knowledge of the Gospel. However, I am saying that there is a True Gospel that Fundamental Christianity does not teach, that Yeshua is the Savior of ALL men. If you know this Gospel then I ask, Why would you reject this? An eternal hell is not possible and God (the Creator of everything star, galaxy, and molecule) is going to Reconcile the entire world to Himself. We will all live forever because He will destroy Death. Do you not see any Truth in this?

Why would I accept this? There is nothing in this, or any other argument, that has much of anything grounded in reality.
anonymouswho
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4/16/2015 1:58:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:49:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/16/2015 1:47:31 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/16/2015 1:40:53 PM, TBR wrote:

My intent is only to share with you the True Gospel so that you might experience Aionios Life yourself, and mostly to clear up misconceptions about the blasphemy of hell and evil.

Its a little presumptuous to think most people who identify as atheists have no knowledge of the Gospels.

You are correct that it is presumptuous to think Atheist have no knowledge of the Gospel. However, I am saying that there is a True Gospel that Fundamental Christianity does not teach, that Yeshua is the Savior of ALL men. If you know this Gospel then I ask, Why would you reject this? An eternal hell is not possible and God (the Creator of everything star, galaxy, and molecule) is going to Reconcile the entire world to Himself. We will all live forever because He will destroy Death. Do you not see any Truth in this?

So what is he saving us from?

There are many things a person should be saved from. He saves us from the life of destruction that Sin causes. He answers all of our questions so that we don't have to depend on our own limited understanding of the world. Imagine that you live a life of constant lying. Eventually those lies will catch up to you and you will stand ashamed. Imagine you live a life where you constantly belittle others. The people who hear your boasting will scoff at you or feel stupid, which is not living a life of Love. He saves us from ourselves, and promises us a life full of contentment and joyfullness. If you don't believe now, you will in the end and you will understand the joy that God's Mercy has on you.
anonymouswho
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4/16/2015 2:02:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:52:26 PM, TBR wrote:

You are correct that it is presumptuous to think Atheist have no knowledge of the Gospel. However, I am saying that there is a True Gospel that Fundamental Christianity does not teach, that Yeshua is the Savior of ALL men. If you know this Gospel then I ask, Why would you reject this? An eternal hell is not possible and God (the Creator of everything star, galaxy, and molecule) is going to Reconcile the entire world to Himself. We will all live forever because He will destroy Death. Do you not see any Truth in this?

Why would I accept this? There is nothing in this, or any other argument, that has much of anything grounded in reality.

That's acceptable. Then I am curious what it is you believe. How did this universe come into existence? Is it Science or is there something else Atheist know as fact? Thank you and God bless.
TBR
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4/16/2015 2:07:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

That's acceptable. Then I am curious what it is you believe. How did this universe come into existence? Is it Science or is there something else Atheist know as fact? Thank you and God bless.

My answer, like your posts this far, are not going to tread new ground.

1) It is not entirely critical for me to know or care "How did this universe come into existence".
2) It is not entirely possible for me to have a 100% "true" theory on this subject.
3) I have eliminated all mystic theory's on this subject based on reliable naturalistic science.
Preceptor
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4/16/2015 2:26:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 1:50:24 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/16/2015 1:40:47 PM, Preceptor wrote:
At 4/16/2015 1:39:00 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/16/2015 12:55:12 PM, TBR wrote:

Thank you for taking the time to read this. May God bless you with all Wisdom and Truth.

I guess I thank you for the effort, but don't know what your intent was.

My intent is only to share with you the True Gospel so that you might experience Aionios Life yourself, and mostly to clear up misconceptions about the blasphemy of hell and evil.

Blasphemy of hell and evil?

Thank you Preceptor, for joining this discussion. Yes I will explain hell later. I will try to answer all these questions but it's kind of hard to keep up. Please read what I said about Yeshua being the Savior of ALL and then we will look at the Scriptures about hell and see if we can reconcile all this together. God bless.

Don't bother yourself about addressing me. If you do not use the Bible you have no use of discussion for me. You simply fall under the many false teachers of this world and what the Bible calls accursed.
anonymouswho
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4/16/2015 2:51:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
To DanneJeRussa, I'll try to answer your questions without reposting all that again. Thank you for joining this discussion. You said "Truth is that which is in accordance with fact or reality. Do you agree?" I would absolutely agree. We can discuss why it is a reality and fact that there is a God, but I'd like to post that to everyone.

When I said everything is God's Will, you asked "Does that include things like disease, cancer, wars, rape, murder, tsunamis?" Yes all those things are included. Like I said previously, it is this experience of evil that humbles us before God. All of these things are meaningless and vanity. People die every single day all over the world. Whether it was a murder, disease, or weather, it is something we all experience. This is a great Evil put upon us, but the purpose is to experience Evil so that we will learn Good. Death is horrible and evil, and that is why in the end-

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." 1 Corinthians 15:26

You wrote "That could be the reason why so many people reject
Scriptures. Most people find meaning to their lives
themselves."

I'm curious as to what meaning you have found in your life? Why is this meaning important to you and why does it matter? I can't think of one thing I could do on this earth that would offer any meaning whatsoever, for-

"...As it happeneth to the fool, so it happeneth even to me; and why was I then more wise? Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity." Ecclessiastes 2:15

When your dead, what is anything that you've ever done going to matter?

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecclesiastes 9:5

To answer your question "Sorry, I must have missed that, what purpose does God have for us?" The purpose is that in the end, He will teach the entire world righteousness. Yeshua is the firstborn among the dead. We who believe are now called Sons because God has called us. Those who don't believe will be judged and know all the wrongdoing that we commit, but God will have Mercy on them because He IS Love (that invisible stuff that people feel for each other).

You wrote "That makes no sense, it seems like a very cruel joke
on Gods part to do such a thing." Not a cruel joke, just His Will. Paul explains this in Romans 9.

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that WILLETH, nor of him that RUNNETH, but of God that sheweth MERCY.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy ON WHOM he will have mercy, and whom he will HE HAPPENETH.
Thou wilt say then unto me, WHY doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing FORMED say to HIM that FORMED IT, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the POTTER POWER over the CLAY, of the same lump to make one vessel unto HONOR, and another unto DISHONOR?
[What] (What is nit Un the original Greek. This is a statement not a question) IF God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of HIS GLORY on the vessels of MERCY, which he had AFORE PREPARED unto glory" Romans 9:14

You wrote "There is no free will, there is only the will of the
person to do something."

I'm not really sure what this means, however I agree that there is no free will. It's the same reason the must be God. Cause and Effect. He is the Great Cause of everything.

You wrote "And yet, it's very easy to see through that thinly
veiled delusion. Doesn't seem very smart or practical." Actually it's not very easy as most of the world believes they have free will. The ones who don't are usually Atheist which confounds my mind that Atheist claim there's no free will and that everything is "determined" yet they disagree that an intelligent being determined everything.

You asked "Why not just show Himself to the world? Clearly, His
process has failed to work."

He will show Himself in the end. His process has most certainly worked, however it isn't finished. You want to see Him now, but He's invisible. He is a Spirit. Our carnal minds cannot comprehend Spiritual matters. The Words Yeshua spoke were Spirit (John 6:63).

Thank you for your questions. I'm having a great time talking to all of you about this. God bless.
anonymouswho
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4/16/2015 2:58:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 2:07:16 PM, TBR wrote:

That's acceptable. Then I am curious what it is you believe. How did this universe come into existence? Is it Science or is there something else Atheist know as fact? Thank you and God bless.

My answer, like your posts this far, are not going to tread new ground.

1) It is not entirely critical for me to know or care "How did this universe come into existence".
2) It is not entirely possible for me to have a 100% "true" theory on this subject.
3) I have eliminated all mystic theory's on this subject based on reliable naturalistic science.

Okay so would you consider yourself more as an Agnostic than an Atheist, since you don't claim to know 100% what is true? Your right you don't have to have an answer, I was just curious of your beliefs. Thank you for responding. If Science is your reliable source, I'm wondering why Cause and Effect can be denied since Science teaches us that this universe had a beginning? I would like to understand what the determiner is in this "determined" world because of Cause and Effect. I would like to know how DNA can 'recieve' information, without something giving it the initial information. Thank you friend and God bless.
anonymouswho
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4/16/2015 3:01:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 2:26:27 PM, Preceptor wrote:
At 4/16/2015 1:50:24 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/16/2015 1:40:47 PM, Preceptor wrote:
At 4/16/2015 1:39:00 PM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/16/2015 12:55:12 PM, TBR wrote:

Thank you for taking the time to read this. May God bless you with all Wisdom and Truth.

I guess I thank you for the effort, but don't know what your intent was.

My intent is only to share with you the True Gospel so that you might experience Aionios Life yourself, and mostly to clear up misconceptions about the blasphemy of hell and evil.

Blasphemy of hell and evil?

Thank you Preceptor, for joining this discussion. Yes I will explain hell later. I will try to answer all these questions but it's kind of hard to keep up. Please read what I said about Yeshua being the Savior of ALL and then we will look at the Scriptures about hell and see if we can reconcile all this together. God bless.

Don't bother yourself about addressing me. If you do not use the Bible you have no use of discussion for me. You simply fall under the many false teachers of this world and what the Bible calls accursed.

Please don't be angry with me. If what I say is false then please by all means show me where in the Scriptures I am wrong. I said I wasn't using the Bible AS IF it should have authority over them, not that I'm not using the Bible. I have quoted many Scriptures and will quote many more so please see for yourself if what I say is true before you call me accursed. Thank you and God bless you friend.
TBR
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4/16/2015 3:06:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

My answer, like your posts this far, are not going to tread new ground.

1) It is not entirely critical for me to know or care "How did this universe come into existence".
2) It is not entirely possible for me to have a 100% "true" theory on this subject.
3) I have eliminated all mystic theory's on this subject based on reliable naturalistic science.

Okay so would you consider yourself more as an Agnostic than an Atheist, since you don't claim to know 100% what is true?
I am an atheist. You may feel free to use agnostic atheist, the two are questions from different directions.

Your right you don't have to have an answer, I was just curious of your beliefs. Thank you for responding. If Science is your reliable source, I'm wondering why Cause and Effect can be denied since Science teaches us that this universe had a beginning?
The best understanding we have at this moment describes a "beginning" of the universe. I have no current issues with the theory as it sits, and know it can be refined. If however, another more plausible theory is advanced, I could be swayed. Mystical theory's are very far away from plausibility. Any theory built on mysticism and backed only with "because I say so" are dismissible.

I would like to understand what the determiner is in this "determined" world because of Cause and Effect. I would like to know how DNA can 'recieve' information, without something giving it the initial information. Thank you friend and God bless.
You are, I would guess, coming at this thinking of a closed system. In the case of life on our planet, we receive energy from our sun, allowing additional complexity to work very nicely.
anonymouswho
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4/16/2015 3:14:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/16/2015 3:06:21 PM, TBR wrote:

My answer, like your posts this far, are not going to tread new ground.

1) It is not entirely critical for me to know or care "How did this universe come into existence".
2) It is not entirely possible for me to have a 100% "true" theory on this subject.
3) I have eliminated all mystic theory's on this subject based on reliable naturalistic science.

Okay so would you consider yourself more as an Agnostic than an Atheist, since you don't claim to know 100% what is true?
I am an atheist. You may feel free to use agnostic atheist, the two are questions from different directions.

Your right you don't have to have an answer, I was just curious of your beliefs. Thank you for responding. If Science is your reliable source, I'm wondering why Cause and Effect can be denied since Science teaches us that this universe had a beginning?
The best understanding we have at this moment describes a "beginning" of the universe. I have no current issues with the theory as it sits, and know it can be refined. If however, another more plausible theory is advanced, I could be swayed. Mystical theory's are very far away from plausibility. Any theory built on mysticism and backed only with "because I say so" are dismissible.


I would like to understand what the determiner is in this "determined" world because of Cause and Effect. I would like to know how DNA can 'recieve' information, without something giving it the initial information. Thank you friend and God bless.
You are, I would guess, coming at this thinking of a closed system. In the case of life on our planet, we receive energy from our sun, allowing additional complexity to work very nicely.

Thank you for answering my questions. You wrote "If however, another more plausible theory is advanced, I could be swayed." I am happy to know that you have an open mind, but as you said, I'm in a closed system by which I believe the Scriptures. I just feel as though the Scriptures give me an acceptable answer about everything. I believe our universe is founded on Laws such as Gravity, Physics, Thermodynamics, and Cause and Effect, and I believe the Bible explains all of these things. Take for instance Cause and Effect. We know that if there was ever to be an Effect without a Cause, the very fabric of space and time would collapse. The only way this could happen is if something ttraveled faster than the speed of Light, which is physically and biologically impossible. The first thing God spoke is "Let there be Light" thus beginning the sequence of time. Is that really too impossible to believe?