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EtrnlVw
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4/17/2015 2:12:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
So you've made your way to the religion forum and for whatever reason now you want to "discuss" your point of view about what you perceive to be true about "religion" or God, maybe you have strolled in already armed and informed well here are a few things to consider.

If you are a naturalist/materialist Atheist or whatever and you want to follow arguments in an appropriate manner you need to be prepared to understand there are people that don't fit into your little box of what you perceive as reality, I'm not arguing for reality I'm just letting you in on the fact that there are more people than you could imagine that believe and testify to a spiritual existence.

Don't be fooled, this little forum that is run wild with Atheists who can't understand why people are explaining spiritual concepts is not reality.
In the real world there is more spiritual beliefs than anything else period, not even a second runner up so it's time to expand your little box if you want to argue about the concepts of God and spirituality, this is not a science forum but a spiritual one, so that is what you will find, spirituality.
These are not arguments they are suggestions.

Number one..... yes we Theists believe in a spiritual existence.....eternity, afterlife, plane ect.. whatever you want to label it yes, we do not believe that the material/natural world is all that exists. We believe basically that the physical world is just one stage of life, that is the easiest way to put it.
That STAGE, is interpreted through science, however science only is interpreting what it sees. What it sees is just the function of how material things operate that's it, it doesn't tell us anything other than that. You grab any object you find and you can see it and observe it for what it is and maybe even eventually learn how the object operates by studying it and learning it's function or even its purpose that is because this stage IS physical, it is independent, meaning it was created to function on it's own and for it to function on it's own there must be a system that works, there must be an operation that causes it to work and that is what we are seeing utilizing science.

But.... we are not dictated to just what science observes, science is only observing one stage of existence it does not account for everything. So when you continually badger Theists with the old "give me physical evidence" card at every turn, you are only working against yourself and wasting time because spiritual is not material, it's not based on material evidence like physical things.
If you want to understand the spiritual nature of all of this you need to grow out of this mindset, otherwise eventually you're just going to bore people to death because of your lack of understanding, others though just want to play games and this is the easiest route to achieve what they want.
So when you approach spiritual beliefs with science you are just splitting hairs.

2) No, not all Theists are indoctrinated, that is flat out stupidity and propaganda. Don't act like a brainwashed idiot when you come here and pretend like all Theists have been indoctrinated into what they believe, you may be surprised when you realize you made a huge mistake, ideas that derive from false assumptions equal false conclusions, there is a ton of that happening,, time to expand out of your box a little!
If you walk around believing Theists are indoctrinated because their parents dragged them to church that is a joke, people around the world who ARE in critical condition because of an indoctrination would spit on you, what an insult to people who actually suffer this. But this is not a representation of Theism, it's a representation of the world, it's a people problem not a spirituality problem.

3) No, faith is not all we have nor is it a crutch for thinking or reasoning, that misconstrued definition of faith needs to be permanently trashed. Of course there are people who are not interested in learning or expanding what they believe but that is not representative of Theists, that is an attribute in people, not just people with spiritual beliefs so you might find some idiots who use the word faith out of context simply because they have no desire to explain it, but that is not spiritual faith, spiritual faith is what Jesus knew of as well as Paul, however faith is a SINGLE element in the life of a Theist, it's not "all" we have.
Faith is a spiritual principle not a way to avoid reason, faith is substance that produces evidence, just keep that in mind when you go grabbing for the most despicable definition of faith you can possibly find, but even when you look at the definition the common translation is trust and confidence, so don't cheat yourself and your intellect just so you can get over on people give things some consideration.

4) The Santa, fairies, gremlins crap has got to go. Not only are you wasting the time of others by dragging discussions through the gutters you are revealing what a moron you've become, no offence I can't think of a nicer word.
You need to get over this whole idea that believing in God or a Creator is like believing in a fairy tale, not only is that backwards thinking but it's well beyond words to describe how immature and weak peoples thinking are, would you actually go to another forum and argue over the existence of Santa all your life like Atheists do with religion?
If in every discussion Theists now have to account for the existence of fairies and gremlins this place needs a wake up call, it's time to break the surface because this is just getting out of control because it is working against productivity, and productivity is what we are looking for, not stagnation.
For some people they simply just want to belittle and mock people in subtle ways, they are angry and just want to make theistic ideas sound dumb.

5) "Other religions", this one cracks me up but it is a two-sided coin. On one hand you have a somewhat decent objection but on the other side you have the complete morons, the ones that use it to slip. As soon as one no longer can handle the pressure of dealing with context they pull out the old "thousands of gods" card, what a joke. This should be banned as people in this forum need to deal with other beliefs head on, not dodge them, this is unproductive and cowardly.

6) "Scripture is man-made so it as an unreliable source" LOL! All information is man-made! Science being at the forefront. The reason Theists use scripture is the same reason Atheists run to science, because it contains the structure and framework of spiritual beliefs. Scripture is information and information is needed to build from.

Scripture doesn't deal with creation from a scientific approach but with ideas, ideas that create simple imagery and it deals with mainly spiritual matters, the point of any holy book is to deal with non physical concepts which is why I can't understand why scientific minded people scrutinize the Bible to death with material thinking. I mean it's just incredible that people don't get it, it's not a science book and was never meant to be and therefore has no need to qualify as scientific information. It was written by spiritual men ages ago not by modern scientists and that creates a huge problem when trying to compare scripture to what we have discover in science now, it is a spiritual source not a physical one. It is the spiritual information that is the whole reason for it.
TheUncannyN
Posts: 95
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4/17/2015 3:05:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If you are a naturalist/materialist Atheist or whatever and you want to follow arguments in an appropriate manner you need to be prepared to understand there are people that don't fit into your little box of what you perceive as reality, I'm not arguing for reality I'm just letting you in on the fact that there are more people than you could imagine that believe and testify to a spiritual existence.

And it still doesn't matter how many people believe it, it still doesn't make it true, and that YOU need to accept that there are people who refuse to simply take the snake oil and run with it.

Don't be fooled, this little forum that is run wild with Atheists who can't understand why people are explaining spiritual concepts is not reality.
In the real world there is more spiritual beliefs than anything else period, not even a second runner up so it's time to expand your little box if you want to argue about the concepts of God and spirituality, this is not a science forum but a spiritual one, so that is what you will find, spirituality.
These are not arguments they are suggestions.


I don't care what you try to say they are, this website is still called debate.org, and the forum categories are not, to the best of my understanding, reserved for towing particular lines. They are categories for discussion, and when you have people trying to pull spirituality into the scientific arena, the scientifically minded are going to retaliate. More to the point, if you aren't prepared to have your belief in the spiritual challenged, why the hell are you on a website dedicated to debating?

Number one..... yes we Theists believe in a spiritual existence.....eternity, afterlife, plane ect.. whatever you want to label it yes, we do not believe that the material/natural world is all that exists. We believe basically that the physical world is just one stage of life, that is the easiest way to put it.
That STAGE, is interpreted through science, however science only is interpreting what it sees. What it sees is just the function of how material things operate that's it, it doesn't tell us anything other than that. You grab any object you find and you can see it and observe it for what it is and maybe even eventually learn how the object operates by studying it and learning it's function or even its purpose that is because this stage IS physical, it is independent, meaning it was created to function on it's own and for it to function on it's own there must be a system that works, there must be an operation that causes it to work and that is what we are seeing utilizing science.


What's your point? Until the spiritual reveals itself as something that can be objectively verified, measured, tested, etc., then the skeptics of the world have to resort to the default position that naturalism is the way to go.

But.... we are not dictated to just what science observes, science is only observing one stage of existence it does not account for everything. So when you continually badger Theists with the old "give me physical evidence" card at every turn, you are only working against yourself and wasting time because spiritual is not material, it's not based on material evidence like physical things.
If you want to understand the spiritual nature of all of this you need to grow out of this mindset, otherwise eventually you're just going to bore people to death because of your lack of understanding, others though just want to play games and this is the easiest route to achieve what they want.
So when you approach spiritual beliefs with science you are just splitting hairs.


Then why should we consider it at all? Give me one justification as to why spirituality (as an ever-shrinking realm of ignorance and new age hokum) should be taken seriously by serious inquirers. Not one single iota of spiritual anything has ever been proven to work. It's not due to our "lack of understanding", and how dare you make such a pompous assertion given all the modern amenities and knowledge you enjoy today. It's because your ilk are a collection of bad salesmen that have to apologize for a constantly failing product. "Splitting hairs"--as if two opposing modes of explaining reality should be equally respected? No. One has merit, the other does not.

2) No, not all Theists are indoctrinated, that is flat out stupidity and propaganda. Don't act like a brainwashed idiot when you come here and pretend like all Theists have been indoctrinated into what they believe, you may be surprised when you realize you made a huge mistake, ideas that derive from false assumptions equal false conclusions, there is a ton of that happening,, time to expand out of your box a little!
If you walk around believing Theists are indoctrinated because their parents dragged them to church that is a joke, people around the world who ARE in critical condition because of an indoctrination would spit on you, what an insult to people who actually suffer this. But this is not a representation of Theism, it's a representation of the world, it's a people problem not a spirituality problem.


Strawman. I, personally, have never said that on here. Others may have, but I have not. Admit that is a generalization right now. Do I believe a good deal of theists are indoctrinated? Yes. Do I think all of them are? No. But it does not change the fact that spiritual belief is not supported by evidence, and only ever defended with faulty arguments and supported by the craziest mental gymnastics. So when you say "it's a people problem", you are completely correct"it is a problem with people and their preferred flavor of make-believe.

3) No, faith is not all we have nor is it a crutch for thinking or reasoning, that misconstrued definition of faith needs to be permanently trashed. Of course there are people who are not interested in learning or expanding what they believe but that is not representative of Theists, that is an attribute in people, not just people with spiritual beliefs so you might find some idiots who use the word faith out of context simply because they have no desire to explain it, but that is not spiritual faith, spiritual faith is what Jesus knew of as well as Paul, however faith is a SINGLE element in the life of a Theist, it's not "all" we have.
Faith is a spiritual principle not a way to avoid reason, faith is substance that produces evidence, just keep that in mind when you go grabbing for the most despicable definition of faith you can possibly find, but even when you look at the definition the common translation is trust and confidence, so don't cheat yourself and your intellect just so you can get over on people give things some consideration.


I have never observed faith produce evidence. Ever.

4) The Santa, fairies, gremlins crap has got to go. Not only are you wasting the time of others by dragging discussions through the gutters you are revealing what a moron you've become, no offence I can't think of a nicer word.
You need to get over this whole idea that believing in God or a Creator is like believing in a fairy tale, not only is that backwards thinking but it's well beyond words to describe how immature and weak peoples thinking are, would you actually go to another forum and argue over the existence of Santa all your life like Atheists do with religion?
If in every discussion Theists now have to account for the existence of fairies and gremlins this place needs a wake up call, it's time to break the surface because this is just getting out of control because it is working against productivity, and productivity is what we are looking for, not stagnation.
For some people they simply just want to belittle and mock people in subtle ways, they are angry and just want to make theistic ideas sound dumb.


Explain how the substitution is flawed other than how you don't like it.

(to be continued...)
TheUncannyN
Posts: 95
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4/17/2015 3:14:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
5) "Other religions", this one cracks me up but it is a two-sided coin. On one hand you have a somewhat decent objection but on the other side you have the complete morons, the ones that use it to slip. As soon as one no longer can handle the pressure of dealing with context they pull out the old "thousands of gods" card, what a joke. This should be banned as people in this forum need to deal with other beliefs head on, not dodge them, this is unproductive and cowardly.

A slip? Really? Exposing confirmation bias isn't a "slip", you tool. And of course you think it should be banned. None of you can think of a decent way to account for it, only ever answering with "my [insert magic being] is the only true [insert magic being]", or some other crazy nonsense.

6) "Scripture is man-made so it as an unreliable source" LOL! All information is man-made! Science being at the forefront. The reason Theists use scripture is the same reason Atheists run to science, because it contains the structure and framework of spiritual beliefs. Scripture is information and information is needed to build from.


Science is man-made, but the difference between it and scripture is that science has given us utility. Structure and framework of spiritual beliefs? How can you say that when science has been slowly dismantling spirituality from the word go? What an idiot you are.

Scripture doesn't deal with creation from a scientific approach but with ideas, ideas that create simple imagery and it deals with mainly spiritual matters, the point of any holy book is to deal with non physical concepts which is why I can't understand why scientific minded people scrutinize the Bible to death with material thinking. I mean it's just incredible that people don't get it, it's not a science book and was never meant to be and therefore has no need to qualify as scientific information. It was written by spiritual men ages ago not by modern scientists and that creates a huge problem when trying to compare scripture to what we have discover in science now, it is a spiritual source not a physical one. It is the spiritual information that is the whole reason for it.

So scripture is imaginary? Got it.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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4/17/2015 3:27:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 2:12:40 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
So you've made your way to the religion forum and for whatever reason now you want to "discuss" your point of view about what you perceive to be true about "religion" or God, maybe you have strolled in already armed and informed well here are a few things to consider.

If you are a naturalist/materialist Atheist or whatever and you want to follow arguments in an appropriate manner you need to be prepared to understand there are people that don't fit into your little box of what you perceive as reality, I'm not arguing for reality I'm just letting you in on the fact that there are more people than you could imagine that believe and testify to a spiritual existence.

Argumentum ad populum fallacy. Lots of believers doesn't make it true, just popular.

Don't be fooled, this little forum that is run wild with Atheists who can't understand why people are explaining spiritual concepts is not reality.
In the real world there is more spiritual beliefs than anything else period, not even a second runner up so it's time to expand your little box if you want to argue about the concepts of God and spirituality, this is not a science forum but a spiritual one, so that is what you will find, spirituality.

No evidence that anything spiritual exists.

These are not arguments they are suggestions.


Number one..... yes we Theists believe in a spiritual existence.....eternity, afterlife, plane ect.. whatever you want to label it yes, we do not believe that the material/natural world is all that exists. We believe basically that the physical world is just one stage of life, that is the easiest way to put it.
That STAGE, is interpreted through science, however science only is interpreting what it sees. What it sees is just the function of how material things operate that's it, it doesn't tell us anything other than that. You grab any object you find and you can see it and observe it for what it is and maybe even eventually learn how the object operates by studying it and learning it's function or even its purpose that is because this stage IS physical, it is independent, meaning it was created to function on it's own and for it to function on it's own there must be a system that works, there must be an operation that causes it to work and that is what we are seeing utilizing science.

But.... we are not dictated to just what science observes, science is only observing one stage of existence it does not account for everything. So when you continually badger Theists with the old "give me physical evidence" card at every turn, you are only working against yourself and wasting time because spiritual is not material, it's not based on material evidence like physical things.
If you want to understand the spiritual nature of all of this you need to grow out of this mindset, otherwise eventually you're just going to bore people to death because of your lack of understanding, others though just want to play games and this is the easiest route to achieve what they want.
So when you approach spiritual beliefs with science you are just splitting hairs.

No, we're asking you to demonstrate what you say has any merit.

2) No, not all Theists are indoctrinated, that is flat out stupidity and propaganda. Don't act like a brainwashed idiot when you come here and pretend like all Theists have been indoctrinated into what they believe, you may be surprised when you realize you made a huge mistake, ideas that derive from false assumptions equal false conclusions, there is a ton of that happening,, time to expand out of your box a little!
If you walk around believing Theists are indoctrinated because their parents dragged them to church that is a joke, people around the world who ARE in critical condition because of an indoctrination would spit on you, what an insult to people who actually suffer this. But this is not a representation of Theism, it's a representation of the world, it's a people problem not a spirituality problem.

Agreed. It's a problem of people who are so desperately afraid they give up critical thinking for a reassuring lie.

3) No, faith is not all we have nor is it a crutch for thinking or reasoning, that misconstrued definition of faith needs to be permanently trashed. Of course there are people who are not interested in learning or expanding what they believe but that is not representative of Theists, that is an attribute in people, not just people with spiritual beliefs so you might find some idiots who use the word faith out of context simply because they have no desire to explain it, but that is not spiritual faith, spiritual faith is what Jesus knew of as well as Paul, however faith is a SINGLE element in the life of a Theist, it's not "all" we have.
Faith is a spiritual principle not a way to avoid reason, faith is substance that produces evidence, just keep that in mind when you go grabbing for the most despicable definition of faith you can possibly find, but even when you look at the definition the common translation is trust and confidence, so don't cheat yourself and your intellect just so you can get over on people give things some consideration.

If you had evidence, you'd not need faith. Faith has no substance and has never produced anything resembling valid evidence.

4) The Santa, fairies, gremlins crap has got to go. Not only are you wasting the time of others by dragging discussions through the gutters you are revealing what a moron you've become, no offence I can't think of a nicer word.
You need to get over this whole idea that believing in God or a Creator is like believing in a fairy tale, not only is that backwards thinking but it's well beyond words to describe how immature and weak peoples thinking are, would you actually go to another forum and argue over the existence of Santa all your life like Atheists do with religion?
If in every discussion Theists now have to account for the existence of fairies and gremlins this place needs a wake up call, it's time to break the surface because this is just getting out of control because it is working against productivity, and productivity is what we are looking for, not stagnation.
For some people they simply just want to belittle and mock people in subtle ways, they are angry and just want to make theistic ideas sound dumb.

So many wrongs here. Santa, fairies, and gremlins (among others) are all supernatural beings from the folklore of many locations. God is a supernatural being that originated in the folklore of several semi-nomadic tribes from the Middle East that was adopted by a European Emperor to help stabilize his government. Only that makes God any different from any other supernatural being.

Want to be productive? Simply admit you could be wrong and look objectively at evidence instead of dismissing anything that disagrees with your preconceived notions.

Finally, the sweeping generalization that anyone who happens to use this form of disagreement is a simple fallacy that anyone can see through. It's nothing more than an attempt to pre-emptively damage the credibility of your opponent. It's kind of desperate, actually.

(More to follow)
davidh
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4/17/2015 3:31:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You seem to be defending ignorance as a legitimate alternative to a scientific worldview. And you don't address why you think certain lines of reasoning are unfair (such as many gods, or Santa clause, etc.).

I'm not interested in criticizing spiritual people for their supernatural beliefs. I just want to understand why they hold those beliefs.
davidh
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4/17/2015 3:33:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You seem to be defending ignorance as a legitimate alternative to a scientific worldview. And you don't address why you think certain lines of reasoning are unfair (such as many gods, or Santa clause, etc.).

I'm not interested in criticizing spiritual people for their supernatural beliefs. I just want to understand why they hold those beliefs.

Davidh
DanneJeRusse
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4/17/2015 3:39:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 2:12:40 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

If you are a naturalist/materialist Atheist or whatever and you want to follow arguments in an appropriate manner you need to be prepared to understand there are people that don't fit into your little box of what you perceive as reality,

The "little box of reality" is just reality. We all share it equally and no one has ever shown reality to be more than that.

I'm not arguing for reality I'm just letting you in on the fact that there are more people than you could imagine that believe and testify to a spiritual existence.

Perhaps, but most often that is just delusion and fantasy. And, if all the people you say can testify to a spiritual experience, why is they all disagree on their experiences. Shouldn't they all agree? If not, why not?

In the real world there is more spiritual beliefs than anything else period

Yes, that is pretty much the same thing people with mental disorders say, in the real world.

this is not a science forum but a spiritual one...

So what?

Number one..... yes we Theists believe in a spiritual existence.....eternity, afterlife, plane ect.. whatever you want to label it yes, we do not believe that the material/natural world is all that exists. We believe basically that the physical world is just one stage of life, that is the easiest way to put it.

Yet, for centuries, not a single person has ever validated that belief.

That STAGE, is interpreted through science, however science only is interpreting what it sees.

And, believers interpret that stage with their beliefs, which not only widely vary from one religion to another, but within a religion itself, from one person to the next. It's laughable, because few any actually agree with one another. Ridiculous.

How many scientists on the planet disagree with how gravity works?

... spiritual is not material, it's not based on material evidence like physical things.

Then, you nor anyone else can know anything about it, by your own words. You contradict yourself.

If you want to understand the spiritual nature of all of this you need to grow out of this mindset, otherwise eventually you're just going to bore people to death because of your lack of understanding

And yet, you nor anyone else has ever been able to explain or demonstrate the alleged "spiritual nature of all this" beyond your own personal imaginative fantasies and delusions. Meanwhile, psychology often shows it as mere mental disorders.

So when you approach spiritual beliefs with science you are just splitting hairs.

The same goes for you when you approach spiritual beliefs with reality.

not all Theists are indoctrinated

But, the vast majority certainly are indoctrinated.

Don't act like a brainwashed idiot when you come here and pretend like all Theists have been indoctrinated into what they believe

Unfortunately, theists are incapable of showing they haven't been indoctrinated.

If you walk around believing Theists are indoctrinated because their parents dragged them to church that is a joke, people around the world who ARE in critical condition because of an indoctrination would spit on you, what an insult to people who actually suffer this. But this is not a representation of Theism, it's a representation of the world, it's a people problem not a spirituality problem.

Strawman.
Of course there are people who are not interested in learning or expanding what they believe but that is not representative of Theists

If theists could ever agree on anything, they might have something to teach, as it is, they can't even agree with each other.

that is an attribute in people, not just people with spiritual beliefs so you might find some idiots who use the word faith out of context simply because they have no desire to explain it, but that is not spiritual faith, spiritual faith is what Jesus knew of as well as Paul, however faith is a SINGLE element in the life of a Theist, it's not "all" we have.
Faith is a spiritual principle not a way to avoid reason, faith is substance that produces evidence

That certainly would be taking the word faith out of context as it does not produce evidence.

just keep that in mind when you go grabbing for the most despicable definition of faith you can possibly find, but even when you look at the definition the common translation is trust and confidence, so don't cheat yourself and your intellect just so you can get over on people give things some consideration.

That should apply to you as that is exactly what you just did,

4) The Santa, fairies, gremlins crap has got to go.

Considering they all have exactly the same amount of evidence for existence as your God, they are perfectly relevant.

Not only are you wasting the time of others by dragging discussions through the gutters you are revealing what a moron you've become, no offence I can't think of a nicer word.

Yes, because morons use evidence to understand things, while non-morons make statements of faith without any evidence at all. Good one.

You need to get over this whole idea that believing in God or a Creator is like believing in a fairy tale, not only is that backwards thinking but it's well beyond words to describe how immature and weak peoples thinking are, would you actually go to another forum and argue over the existence of Santa all your life like Atheists do with religion?

Of course not, no one claims the things about Santa that they do about their gods. No one tells us to hate homosexuals because Santa said so. No one tells us science is garbage because Santa said. No one tells us that if we don't accept Santa as our lord and savior that we will burn in hellfire for an eternity. The list goes on and on.

For some people they simply just want to belittle and mock people in subtle ways, they are angry and just want to make theistic ideas sound dumb.

Theists ideas are dumb. We aren't angry because we are laughing at those dumb ideas.

5) "Other religions", this one cracks me up but it is a two-sided coin. On one hand you have a somewhat decent objection but on the other side you have the complete morons, the ones that use it to slip. As soon as one no longer can handle the pressure of dealing with context they pull out the old "thousands of gods" card, what a joke. This should be banned as people in this forum need to deal with other beliefs head on, not dodge them, this is unproductive and cowardly.

Nice contradiction. Funny how the theist is incapable of dealing with the concept of other religions and wan's it banned. That just shows the desperation of theists.


6) "Scripture is man-made so it as an unreliable source" LOL! All information is man-made! Science being at the forefront. The reason Theists use scripture is the same reason Atheists run to science, because it contains the structure and framework of spiritual beliefs. Scripture is information and information is needed to build from.

Baloney. Scientific findings require hard work and rigor and is not revealed to us by bronze age goat herders. You insult all scientists.

Scripture doesn't deal with creation from a scientific approach but with ideas, ideas that create simple imagery and it deals with mainly spiritual matters

It was written by men who knew absolutely nothing of the world around them and shows they most likely had serious mental disorders. Ideas and imagery are pretty uch useless without evidence when it comes to understanding something.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
dhardage
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4/17/2015 3:40:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
5) "Other religions", this one cracks me up but it is a two-sided coin. On one hand you have a somewhat decent objection but on the other side you have the complete morons, the ones that use it to slip. As soon as one no longer can handle the pressure of dealing with context they pull out the old "thousands of gods" card, what a joke. This should be banned as people in this forum need to deal with other beliefs head on, not dodge them, this is unproductive and cowardly.

Demonstrating that your belief is not unique is in no way cowardly, but trying to avoid it is. You want to be 'special', demonstrate some actual difference. Until you do this is a valid objection that you should be prepared to deal with.


6) "Scripture is man-made so it as an unreliable source" LOL! All information is man-made!

OK, that's plain foolish. Man didn't 'make' the gravitational constant of the universe or the Planck constant or the speed of light or the spin value of electrons. We discovered is and recorded it and we use these values to determine other things.

Science being at the forefront.

Science is at the forefront of investigation, discovery, and application. Without it you would not be reading this, typing this, or even conceiving of such a thing. When human intellect slipped the bonds of religious repression and ideas were free to flow, science and the scientific method began to improve the lot of mankind by discovering the causes and cures for diseases, how to travel faster and further, how to grow more food so fewer went hungry, how to generate power and not freeze when the weather got frigid. So many things science has done in a couple of hundred years that religion couldn't do in a thousand or more.

The reason Theists use scripture is the same reason Atheists run to science, because it contains the structure and framework of spiritual beliefs. Scripture is information and information is needed to build from.

Scripture is retranslated, redacted, and reinterpreted oral traditions of a semi-nomadic tribe from the Middle East, has at least 66 different authors, and no original manuscripts to refer back to. Most people read the bible that was canonized by the Nicene Council, a Catholic Church hierarchy that argued, excommunicated, possibly even killed members who didn't agree with the majority. There are the Apocryphal gospels that tell a much different story that were redacted from the canons by the council so that their idea of what God and Jesus were would be the only ones.

Scripture has no structure and only very limited information, none of it reliable.

It does have some very good rules for living, many of which are ignored by its supposed adherents. I refer to Christians when I use that term, for clarity sake. I know very few Christian who follow both the example and all of the commands of their supposed savior. To paraphrase Ghandi, I quite like your Christ. I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike him.
Illegalcombatant
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4/17/2015 10:46:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 2:12:40 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

Get over it eternal. God and religious beliefs are being subjected to the same standard of critical analysis that we apply to anything else.

"spiritual truth" is just an attempt to get around that.

Gremlins..................well it's a spiritual truth.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Mhykiel
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4/17/2015 10:58:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 3:27:15 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 4/17/2015 2:12:40 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
So you've made your way to the religion forum and for whatever reason now you want to "discuss" your point of view about what you perceive to be true about "religion" or God, maybe you have strolled in already armed and informed well here are a few things to consider.

If you are a naturalist/materialist Atheist or whatever and you want to follow arguments in an appropriate manner you need to be prepared to understand there are people that don't fit into your little box of what you perceive as reality, I'm not arguing for reality I'm just letting you in on the fact that there are more people than you could imagine that believe and testify to a spiritual existence.

Argumentum ad populum fallacy. Lots of believers doesn't make it true, just popular.

Don't be fooled, this little forum that is run wild with Atheists who can't understand why people are explaining spiritual concepts is not reality.
In the real world there is more spiritual beliefs than anything else period, not even a second runner up so it's time to expand your little box if you want to argue about the concepts of God and spirituality, this is not a science forum but a spiritual one, so that is what you will find, spirituality.

No evidence that anything spiritual exists.

Spiritual is not physical. it is not composed of matter and energy. What would you expect to be evidence of spiritual matter?

If the answer is you want direct physical evidence then you already no by definition that isn't possible.

If the spirit interacts with the physical this interaction will be detectable and spirit affirmed indirectly. people have spiritual experiences and not all of them are clinically crazy. Some of them have perfectly healthy brains, well hydrated and oxygenated.

Can you show me what are your justifications are for saying "no evidence"?


These are not arguments they are suggestions.


Number one..... yes we Theists believe in a spiritual existence.....eternity, afterlife, plane ect.. whatever you want to label it yes, we do not believe that the material/natural world is all that exists. We believe basically that the physical world is just one stage of life, that is the easiest way to put it.
That STAGE, is interpreted through science, however science only is interpreting what it sees. What it sees is just the function of how material things operate that's it, it doesn't tell us anything other than that. You grab any object you find and you can see it and observe it for what it is and maybe even eventually learn how the object operates by studying it and learning it's function or even its purpose that is because this stage IS physical, it is independent, meaning it was created to function on it's own and for it to function on it's own there must be a system that works, there must be an operation that causes it to work and that is what we are seeing utilizing science.

But.... we are not dictated to just what science observes, science is only observing one stage of existence it does not account for everything. So when you continually badger Theists with the old "give me physical evidence" card at every turn, you are only working against yourself and wasting time because spiritual is not material, it's not based on material evidence like physical things.
If you want to understand the spiritual nature of all of this you need to grow out of this mindset, otherwise eventually you're just going to bore people to death because of your lack of understanding, others though just want to play games and this is the easiest route to achieve what they want.
So when you approach spiritual beliefs with science you are just splitting hairs.

No, we're asking you to demonstrate what you say has any merit.

2) No, not all Theists are indoctrinated, that is flat out stupidity and propaganda. Don't act like a brainwashed idiot when you come here and pretend like all Theists have been indoctrinated into what they believe, you may be surprised when you realize you made a huge mistake, ideas that derive from false assumptions equal false conclusions, there is a ton of that happening,, time to expand out of your box a little!
If you walk around believing Theists are indoctrinated because their parents dragged them to church that is a joke, people around the world who ARE in critical condition because of an indoctrination would spit on you, what an insult to people who actually suffer this. But this is not a representation of Theism, it's a representation of the world, it's a people problem not a spirituality problem.

Agreed. It's a problem of people who are so desperately afraid they give up critical thinking for a reassuring lie.

3) No, faith is not all we have nor is it a crutch for thinking or reasoning, that misconstrued definition of faith needs to be permanently trashed. Of course there are people who are not interested in learning or expanding what they believe but that is not representative of Theists, that is an attribute in people, not just people with spiritual beliefs so you might find some idiots who use the word faith out of context simply because they have no desire to explain it, but that is not spiritual faith, spiritual faith is what Jesus knew of as well as Paul, however faith is a SINGLE element in the life of a Theist, it's not "all" we have.
Faith is a spiritual principle not a way to avoid reason, faith is substance that produces evidence, just keep that in mind when you go grabbing for the most despicable definition of faith you can possibly find, but even when you look at the definition the common translation is trust and confidence, so don't cheat yourself and your intellect just so you can get over on people give things some consideration.

If you had evidence, you'd not need faith. Faith has no substance and has never produced anything resembling valid evidence.

4) The Santa, fairies, gremlins crap has got to go. Not only are you wasting the time of others by dragging discussions through the gutters you are revealing what a moron you've become, no offence I can't think of a nicer word.
You need to get over this whole idea that believing in God or a Creator is like believing in a fairy tale, not only is that backwards thinking but it's well beyond words to describe how immature and weak peoples thinking are, would you actually go to another forum and argue over the existence of Santa all your life like Atheists do with religion?
If in every discussion Theists now have to account for the existence of fairies and gremlins this place needs a wake up call, it's time to break the surface because this is just getting out of control because it is working against productivity, and productivity is what we are looking for, not stagnation.
For some people they simply just want to belittle and mock people in subtle ways, they are angry and just want to make theistic ideas sound dumb.

So many wrongs here. Santa, fairies, and gremlins (among others) are all supernatural beings from the folklore of many locations. God is a supernatural being that originated in the folklore of several semi-nomadic tribes from the Middle East that was adopted by a European Emperor to help stabilize his government. Only that makes God any different from any other supernatural being.

Want to be productive? Simply admit you could be wrong and look objectively at evidence instead of dismissing anything that disagrees with your preconceived notions.
Mhykiel
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4/17/2015 11:05:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 3:40:22 PM, dhardage wrote:
5) "Other religions", this one cracks me up but it is a two-sided coin. On one hand you have a somewhat decent objection but on the other side you have the complete morons, the ones that use it to slip. As soon as one no longer can handle the pressure of dealing with context they pull out the old "thousands of gods" card, what a joke. This should be banned as people in this forum need to deal with other beliefs head on, not dodge them, this is unproductive and cowardly.

Demonstrating that your belief is not unique is in no way cowardly, but trying to avoid it is. You want to be 'special', demonstrate some actual difference. Until you do this is a valid objection that you should be prepared to deal with.


6) "Scripture is man-made so it as an unreliable source" LOL! All information is man-made!

OK, that's plain foolish. Man didn't 'make' the gravitational constant of the universe or the Planck constant or the speed of light or the spin value of electrons. We discovered is and recorded it and we use these values to determine other things.

Science doesn't make gravity hold planets in orbit, or prescribe the spin of electrons. Science is a body of knowledge, written by WHO? humans. In what language? A language made by humans. Science is just a body of knowledge with words and symbols used to model reality.

Are you so foolish that you do not realize that a model in science is NOT the reality? That what you imagine in your head as an atom is NOT what the real atom actually is?

Artist describe reality as well, but use words of pigment.

Science is a body of knowledge written by mankind for mankind to what? understand reality.

That journey originally started as a way to discover truth. Nature was the second book of God to learn about God. But you ask "what is truth?" and await no answer.


Science being at the forefront.

Science is at the forefront of investigation, discovery, and application. Without it you would not be reading this, typing this, or even conceiving of such a thing. When human intellect slipped the bonds of religious repression and ideas were free to flow, science and the scientific method began to improve the lot of mankind by discovering the causes and cures for diseases, how to travel faster and further, how to grow more food so fewer went hungry, how to generate power and not freeze when the weather got frigid. So many things science has done in a couple of hundred years that religion couldn't do in a thousand or more.

The reason Theists use scripture is the same reason Atheists run to science, because it contains the structure and framework of spiritual beliefs. Scripture is information and information is needed to build from.

Scripture is retranslated, redacted, and reinterpreted oral traditions of a semi-nomadic tribe from the Middle East, has at least 66 different authors, and no original manuscripts to refer back to. Most people read the bible that was canonized by the Nicene Council, a Catholic Church hierarchy that argued, excommunicated, possibly even killed members who didn't agree with the majority. There are the Apocryphal gospels that tell a much different story that were redacted from the canons by the council so that their idea of what God and Jesus were would be the only ones.

Scripture has no structure and only very limited information, none of it reliable.

It does have some very good rules for living, many of which are ignored by its supposed adherents. I refer to Christians when I use that term, for clarity sake. I know very few Christian who follow both the example and all of the commands of their supposed savior. To paraphrase Ghandi, I quite like your Christ. I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike him.
DanneJeRusse
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4/17/2015 11:18:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 10:58:54 PM, Mhykiel wrote:

Spiritual is not physical. it is not composed of matter and energy. What would you expect to be evidence of spiritual matter?

Whatever matter and energy that would constitute you or anyone else knowing that the spiritual exists, Isn't that obvious? How does anyone know that which is not made of matter/energy exists? It's a direct contradiction, hence the requirement of any kind of evidence is vital to trust the claim is valid.

If the answer is you want direct physical evidence then you already no by definition that isn't possible.

Then, by your own words, it is not possible for you or anyone else to know the spiritual exists.

If the spirit interacts with the physical this interaction will be detectable and spirit affirmed indirectly.

If detectable, then that would constitute as evidence, yet no such interaction has ever been detected.

people have spiritual experiences and not all of them are clinically crazy. Some of them have perfectly healthy brains, well hydrated and oxygenated.

So what? That is irrelevant to the evidence.

Can you show me what are your justifications are for saying "no evidence"?

There is no evidence, nothing, zilch, nada, none, that is unless you or anyone else can produce the evidence of interaction.

We'll wait for whatever it is you can provide,
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
celestialtorahteacher
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4/17/2015 11:35:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Doesn't matter how much evidence is produced to atheist fundamentalist--they won't accept anything that counters their atheist belief system--that rides on denial of science facts and logic that puts atheism in its rightful place as a religious belief system. Basic fact No. 1 is that no atheists have a clue what spiritual consciousness is--none of them having any experience with it and yet these know-nothings think that complete ignorance of the subject matter doesn't matter--they still know somehow there is no God, no spiritual reality.

No. 2 is atheist lack of logic--unlike agnosticism which is a valid philosophy of inquiry, atheism says atheists know all the facts of human knowledge and further, they know the future too of human science somehow, that science will never find spiritual reality or God because atheists know it all, all the facts there ever were and ever will be which is just plain stupid--and of course, illogical.

I await the day when brain scans will be used to show how religions and atheistic religion too mold our brains into the ways the religions want people to think and that's when the world will see that atheist's brains are disabled brains, brains with much poorer access across the corpus collossum uniting both right and left brain hemispheres. Atheist brains won't show right brain strength that comes with theistic consciousness. Atheist brains will show left-brain linear conception domination of all their thinking which is why they can't literally "see" or feel spiritual phenomena. But until that day arrives we will be dealing with atheist narcissists and egos that will continue to "believe" they know there is no God, their half-wit consciousness says so..
Gentorev
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4/18/2015 1:24:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 3:39:11 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

The "little box of reality" is just reality. We all share it equally and no one has ever shown reality to be more than that.

That depends on which reality that you perceive. There are those who see the green leaves of the plants, and to them that is their reality, they cannot see beyond their perceived reality. But there are the thinking people who realise that with the absence of light there is an absence of colour, they see the leaves as having absorbed the red light and reflecting back the blue and yellow light, which combination is the green.

What is reality? Is sound a reality of itself? Without the created ear, there can be no sound! Silent shock waves travel out from the point of impact, it is only when those silent waves enter an ear and are converted into electric impulses that are sent to a created brain can they be perceived as sound by that brain.

Another person whose ears have been blocked in order to stop those silent shock waves from entering in, receives no sensation of sound as those silent waves pass them by.

Is the scent of a flower a reality of itself? Without the created nostrils there can be no smell, the molecules that are released upon the breeze by the flower have no scent of themselves, those different combinations of molecules must enter into a created nostril where they too are converted to electric impulses and sent to the brain where they are perceived as an aroma, etc, etc, etc.

To understand that which you see, hear, smell, taste and touch, you must look to that which cannot be seen, which cannot be heard, which cannot be smelt, which cannot be tasted, and which cannot be touched, only then will you discover the true reality.
The tongue, the sharp two edged sword that divides the spirit from the soul.
DanneJeRusse
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4/18/2015 9:57:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 1:24:23 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:39:11 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

The "little box of reality" is just reality. We all share it equally and no one has ever shown reality to be more than that.

That depends on which reality that you perceive.

There is only one reality to perceive and we all share it equally.

There are those who see the green leaves of the plants, and to them that is their reality, they cannot see beyond their perceived reality. But there are the thinking people who realise that with the absence of light there is an absence of colour, they see the leaves as having absorbed the red light and reflecting back the blue and yellow light, which combination is the green.

So what? You're basically saying the same thing except one is an explanation of how light reflects.

What is reality? Is sound a reality of itself? Without the created ear, there can be no sound! Silent shock waves travel out from the point of impact, it is only when those silent waves enter an ear and are converted into electric impulses that are sent to a created brain can they be perceived as sound by that brain.

So what?

Another person whose ears have been blocked in order to stop those silent shock waves from entering in, receives no sensation of sound as those silent waves pass them by.

That doesn't make the sound itself and different, it is still exactly the same regardless of whether or not someone hears it.

Is the scent of a flower a reality of itself? Without the created nostrils there can be no smell, the molecules that are released upon the breeze by the flower have no scent of themselves, those different combinations of molecules must enter into a created nostril where they too are converted to electric impulses and sent to the brain where they are perceived as an aroma, etc, etc, etc.

Again, so what? The smell of a flower does not change regardless of who smells it.

To understand that which you see, hear, smell, taste and touch, you must look to that which cannot be seen, which cannot be heard, which cannot be smelt, which cannot be tasted, and which cannot be touched, only then will you discover the true reality.

That which cannot be seen, heard, smelt or tasted most likely doesn't exist.

Do you actually have a point here?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
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4/18/2015 10:01:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 11:35:15 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Basic fact No. 1 is that no atheists have a clue what spiritual consciousness is-

And, you would be lying if you said you did have a clue.

No. 2 is atheist lack of logic--unlike agnosticism which is a valid philosophy of inquiry, atheism says atheists know all the facts of human knowledge and further, they know the future too of human science somehow, that science will never find spiritual reality or God because atheists know it all, all the facts there ever were and ever will be which is just plain stupid--and of course, illogical.

And, you are lying about that. Is lying part of your faith?

I await the day when brain scans will be used to show how religions and atheistic religion too mold our brains into the ways the religions want people to think and that's when the world will see that atheist's brains are disabled brains, brains with much poorer access across the corpus collossum uniting both right and left brain hemispheres. Atheist brains won't show right brain strength that comes with theistic consciousness. Atheist brains will show left-brain linear conception domination of all their thinking which is why they can't literally "see" or feel spiritual phenomena. But until that day arrives we will be dealing with atheist narcissists and egos that will continue to "believe" they know there is no God, their half-wit consciousness says so..

Sorry, but your claims to God are what atheists find incredulous and lacking, too bad you don't understand that simple concept and are compelled to lie about it.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
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4/18/2015 10:05:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 11:05:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:40:22 PM, dhardage wrote:
5) "Other religions", this one cracks me up but it is a two-sided coin. On one hand you have a somewhat decent objection but on the other side you have the complete morons, the ones that use it to slip. As soon as one no longer can handle the pressure of dealing with context they pull out the old "thousands of gods" card, what a joke. This should be banned as people in this forum need to deal with other beliefs head on, not dodge them, this is unproductive and cowardly.

Demonstrating that your belief is not unique is in no way cowardly, but trying to avoid it is. You want to be 'special', demonstrate some actual difference. Until you do this is a valid objection that you should be prepared to deal with.


6) "Scripture is man-made so it as an unreliable source" LOL! All information is man-made!

OK, that's plain foolish. Man didn't 'make' the gravitational constant of the universe or the Planck constant or the speed of light or the spin value of electrons. We discovered is and recorded it and we use these values to determine other things.

Science doesn't make gravity hold planets in orbit, or prescribe the spin of electrons. Science is a body of knowledge, written by WHO? humans. In what language? A language made by humans. Science is just a body of knowledge with words and symbols used to model reality.

Not really, the language of physics is mathematics, words and symbols don't explain it very well. And, since the math works quite well and is accurate, it would appear humans got it right.

Are you so foolish that you do not realize that a model in science is NOT the reality? That what you imagine in your head as an atom is NOT what the real atom actually is?

Uh, yeah, the atom is what science describes it. Try learning about the Standard Model.

Artist describe reality as well, but use words of pigment.

Science is a body of knowledge written by mankind for mankind to what? understand reality.

Yup.

That journey originally started as a way to discover truth. Nature was the second book of God to learn about God.

And yet, no gods have ever been observed in nature and we have learned nothing about gods from nature.


Science being at the forefront.

Science is at the forefront of investigation, discovery, and application. Without it you would not be reading this, typing this, or even conceiving of such a thing. When human intellect slipped the bonds of religious repression and ideas were free to flow, science and the scientific method began to improve the lot of mankind by discovering the causes and cures for diseases, how to travel faster and further, how to grow more food so fewer went hungry, how to generate power and not freeze when the weather got frigid. So many things science has done in a couple of hundred years that religion couldn't do in a thousand or more.

The reason Theists use scripture is the same reason Atheists run to science, because it contains the structure and framework of spiritual beliefs. Scripture is information and information is needed to build from.

Scripture is retranslated, redacted, and reinterpreted oral traditions of a semi-nomadic tribe from the Middle East, has at least 66 different authors, and no original manuscripts to refer back to. Most people read the bible that was canonized by the Nicene Council, a Catholic Church hierarchy that argued, excommunicated, possibly even killed members who didn't agree with the majority. There are the Apocryphal gospels that tell a much different story that were redacted from the canons by the council so that their idea of what God and Jesus were would be the only ones.

Scripture has no structure and only very limited information, none of it reliable.

It does have some very good rules for living, many of which are ignored by its supposed adherents. I refer to Christians when I use that term, for clarity sake. I know very few Christian who follow both the example and all of the commands of their supposed savior. To paraphrase Ghandi, I quite like your Christ. I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike him.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
dhardage
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4/20/2015 8:37:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If you are a naturalist/materialist Atheist or whatever and you want to follow arguments in an appropriate manner you need to be prepared to understand there are people that don't fit into your little box of what you perceive as reality, I'm not arguing for reality I'm just letting you in on the fact that there are more people than you could imagine that believe and testify to a spiritual existence.

Argumentum ad populum fallacy. Lots of believers doesn't make it true, just popular.

Don't be fooled, this little forum that is run wild with Atheists who can't understand why people are explaining spiritual concepts is not reality.
In the real world there is more spiritual beliefs than anything else period, not even a second runner up so it's time to expand your little box if you want to argue about the concepts of God and spirituality, this is not a science forum but a spiritual one, so that is what you will find, spirituality.

No evidence that anything spiritual exists.

Spiritual is not physical. it is not composed of matter and energy. What would you expect to be evidence of spiritual matter?

Anywhere it interacted with energy and matter, in any kind of miraculous event.

If the answer is you want direct physical evidence then you already no by definition that isn't possible.

So I keep saying but there's always someone claiming there is.

If the spirit interacts with the physical this interaction will be detectable and spirit affirmed indirectly. people have spiritual experiences and not all of them are clinically crazy. Some of them have perfectly healthy brains, well hydrated and oxygenated.

But none can be proven or tested or verified beyond personal anecdote. That's basically the same evidence we have for Bigfoot.

Can you show me what are your justifications are for saying "no evidence"?

You just gave it. " If the answer is you want direct physical evidence then you already no by definition that isn't possible."



These are not arguments they are suggestions.


Number one..... yes we Theists believe in a spiritual existence.....eternity, afterlife, plane ect.. whatever you want to label it yes, we do not believe that the material/natural world is all that exists. We believe basically that the physical world is just one stage of life, that is the easiest way to put it.
That STAGE, is interpreted through science, however science only is interpreting what it sees. What it sees is just the function of how material things operate that's it, it doesn't tell us anything other than that. You grab any object you find and you can see it and observe it for what it is and maybe even eventually learn how the object operates by studying it and learning it's function or even its purpose that is because this stage IS physical, it is independent, meaning it was created to function on it's own and for it to function on it's own there must be a system that works, there must be an operation that causes it to work and that is what we are seeing utilizing science.

But.... we are not dictated to just what science observes, science is only observing one stage of existence it does not account for everything. So when you continually badger Theists with the old "give me physical evidence" card at every turn, you are only working against yourself and wasting time because spiritual is not material, it's not based on material evidence like physical things.
If you want to understand the spiritual nature of all of this you need to grow out of this mindset, otherwise eventually you're just going to bore people to death because of your lack of understanding, others though just want to play games and this is the easiest route to achieve what they want.
So when you approach spiritual beliefs with science you are just splitting hairs.

No, we're asking you to demonstrate what you say has any merit.

2) No, not all Theists are indoctrinated, that is flat out stupidity and propaganda. Don't act like a brainwashed idiot when you come here and pretend like all Theists have been indoctrinated into what they believe, you may be surprised when you realize you made a huge mistake, ideas that derive from false assumptions equal false conclusions, there is a ton of that happening,, time to expand out of your box a little!
If you walk around believing Theists are indoctrinated because their parents dragged them to church that is a joke, people around the world who ARE in critical condition because of an indoctrination would spit on you, what an insult to people who actually suffer this. But this is not a representation of Theism, it's a representation of the world, it's a people problem not a spirituality problem.

Agreed. It's a problem of people who are so desperately afraid they give up critical thinking for a reassuring lie.

3) No, faith is not all we have nor is it a crutch for thinking or reasoning, that misconstrued definition of faith needs to be permanently trashed. Of course there are people who are not interested in learning or expanding what they believe but that is not representative of Theists, that is an attribute in people, not just people with spiritual beliefs so you might find some idiots who use the word faith out of context simply because they have no desire to explain it, but that is not spiritual faith, spiritual faith is what Jesus knew of as well as Paul, however faith is a SINGLE element in the life of a Theist, it's not "all" we have.
Faith is a spiritual principle not a way to avoid reason, faith is substance that produces evidence, just keep that in mind when you go grabbing for the most despicable definition of faith you can possibly find, but even when you look at the definition the common translation is trust and confidence, so don't cheat yourself and your intellect just so you can get over on people give things some consideration.

If you had evidence, you'd not need faith. Faith has no substance and has never produced anything resembling valid evidence.

4) The Santa, fairies, gremlins crap has got to go. Not only are you wasting the time of others by dragging discussions through the gutters you are revealing what a moron you've become, no offence I can't think of a nicer word.
You need to get over this whole idea that believing in God or a Creator is like believing in a fairy tale, not only is that backwards thinking but it's well beyond words to describe how immature and weak peoples thinking are, would you actually go to another forum and argue over the existence of Santa all your life like Atheists do with religion?
If in every discussion Theists now have to account for the existence of fairies and gremlins this place needs a wake up call, it's time to break the surface because this is just getting out of control because it is working against productivity, and productivity is what we are looking for, not stagnation.
For some people they simply just want to belittle and mock people in subtle ways, they are angry and just want to make theistic ideas sound dumb.

So many wrongs here. Santa, fairies, and gremlins (among others) are all supernatural beings from the folklore of many locations. God is a supernatural being that originated in the folklore of several semi-nomadic tribes from the Middle East that was adopted by a European Emperor to help stabilize his government. Only that makes God any different from any other supernatural being.

Want to be productive? Simply admit you could be wrong and look objectively at evidence instead of dismissing anything that disagrees with your preconceived notions.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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4/20/2015 8:42:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 11:05:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:40:22 PM, dhardage wrote:
5) "Other religions", this one cracks me up but it is a two-sided coin. On one hand you have a somewhat decent objection but on the other side you have the complete morons, the ones that use it to slip. As soon as one no longer can handle the pressure of dealing with context they pull out the old "thousands of gods" card, what a joke. This should be banned as people in this forum need to deal with other beliefs head on, not dodge them, this is unproductive and cowardly.

Demonstrating that your belief is not unique is in no way cowardly, but trying to avoid it is. You want to be 'special', demonstrate some actual difference. Until you do this is a valid objection that you should be prepared to deal with.


6) "Scripture is man-made so it as an unreliable source" LOL! All information is man-made!

OK, that's plain foolish. Man didn't 'make' the gravitational constant of the universe or the Planck constant or the speed of light or the spin value of electrons. We discovered is and recorded it and we use these values to determine other things.

Science doesn't make gravity hold planets in orbit, or prescribe the spin of electrons. Science is a body of knowledge, written by WHO? humans. In what language? A language made by humans. Science is just a body of knowledge with words and symbols used to model reality.

Thanks for making my argument for me. It's observations, hypotheses, experiments, conclusion, refinement, and more testing. It's not just taken at face value that has no other support.

Are you so foolish that you do not realize that a model in science is NOT the reality? That what you imagine in your head as an atom is NOT what the real atom actually is?

I understand the term Theory quite nicely, thank you, as in Atomic Theory, Germ Theory, Gravitational Theory, etc. And you're absolutely correct. Science models reality and provides answers that comport with reality. The computer you're using is a result of scientific inquiry and practical application. See, science provides an ACCURATE AND VERIFIABLE model of reality while religion conflicts with it at every turn.

Artist describe reality as well, but use words of pigment.

Science is a body of knowledge written by mankind for mankind to what? understand reality.

That journey originally started as a way to discover truth. Nature was the second book of God to learn about God. But you ask "what is truth?" and await no answer.

Poetic, but meaningless. Truth is that which comports with reality. Whatever does not is, by definition, untrue.


Science being at the forefront.

Science is at the forefront of investigation, discovery, and application. Without it you would not be reading this, typing this, or even conceiving of such a thing. When human intellect slipped the bonds of religious repression and ideas were free to flow, science and the scientific method began to improve the lot of mankind by discovering the causes and cures for diseases, how to travel faster and further, how to grow more food so fewer went hungry, how to generate power and not freeze when the weather got frigid. So many things science has done in a couple of hundred years that religion couldn't do in a thousand or more.

The reason Theists use scripture is the same reason Atheists run to science, because it contains the structure and framework of spiritual beliefs. Scripture is information and information is needed to build from.

Scripture is retranslated, redacted, and reinterpreted oral traditions of a semi-nomadic tribe from the Middle East, has at least 66 different authors, and no original manuscripts to refer back to. Most people read the bible that was canonized by the Nicene Council, a Catholic Church hierarchy that argued, excommunicated, possibly even killed members who didn't agree with the majority. There are the Apocryphal gospels that tell a much different story that were redacted from the canons by the council so that their idea of what God and Jesus were would be the only ones.

Scripture has no structure and only very limited information, none of it reliable.

It does have some very good rules for living, many of which are ignored by its supposed adherents. I refer to Christians when I use that term, for clarity sake. I know very few Christian who follow both the example and all of the commands of their supposed savior. To paraphrase Ghandi, I quite like your Christ. I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike him.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/20/2015 2:18:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Don't be fooled, this little forum that is run wild with Atheists who can't understand why people are explaining spiritual concepts is not reality.
In the real world there is more spiritual beliefs than anything else period, not even a second runner up so it's time to expand your little box if you want to argue about the concepts of God and spirituality, this is not a science forum but a spiritual one, so that is what you will find, spirituality.

No evidence that anything spiritual exists.

Spiritual is not physical. it is not composed of matter and energy. What would you expect to be evidence of spiritual matter?

Anywhere it interacted with energy and matter, in any kind of miraculous event.

If the answer is you want direct physical evidence then you already no by definition that isn't possible.

So I keep saying but there's always someone claiming there is.

If the spirit interacts with the physical this interaction will be detectable and spirit affirmed indirectly. people have spiritual experiences and not all of them are clinically crazy. Some of them have perfectly healthy brains, well hydrated and oxygenated.

But none can be proven or tested or verified beyond personal anecdote. That's basically the same evidence we have for Bigfoot.

Can you show me what are your justifications are for saying "no evidence"?

You just gave it. " If the answer is you want direct physical evidence then you already no by definition that isn't possible."

Evidence does not have to be direct to be valid evidence. Ever hear of circumstantial evidence. Or indirect measurements?




These are not arguments they are suggestions.


Number one..... yes we Theists believe in a spiritual existence.....eternity, afterlife, plane ect.. whatever you want to label it yes, we do not believe that the material/natural world is all that exists. We believe basically that the physical world is just one stage of life, that is the easiest way to put it.
That STAGE, is interpreted through science, however science only is interpreting what it sees. What it sees is just the function of how material things operate that's it, it doesn't tell us anything other than that. You grab any object you find and you can see it and observe it for what it is and maybe even eventually learn how the object operates by studying it and learning it's function or even its purpose that is because this stage IS physical, it is independent, meaning it was created to function on it's own and for it to function on it's own there must be a system that works, there must be an operation that causes it to work and that is what we are seeing utilizing science.

But.... we are not dictated to just what science observes, science is only observing one stage of existence it does not account for everything. So when you continually badger Theists with the old "give me physical evidence" card at every turn, you are only working against yourself and wasting time because spiritual is not material, it's not based on material evidence like physical things.
If you want to understand the spiritual nature of all of this you need to grow out of this mindset, otherwise eventually you're just going to bore people to death because of your lack of understanding, others though just want to play games and this is the easiest route to achieve what they want.
So when you approach spiritual beliefs with science you are just splitting hairs.

No, we're asking you to demonstrate what you say has any merit.

2) No, not all Theists are indoctrinated, that is flat out stupidity and propaganda. Don't act like a brainwashed idiot when you come here and pretend like all Theists have been indoctrinated into what they believe, you may be surprised when you realize you made a huge mistake, ideas that derive from false assumptions equal false conclusions, there is a ton of that happening,, time to expand out of your box a little!
If you walk around believing Theists are indoctrinated because their parents dragged them to church that is a joke, people around the world who ARE in critical condition because of an indoctrination would spit on you, what an insult to people who actually suffer this. But this is not a representation of Theism, it's a representation of the world, it's a people problem not a spirituality problem.

Agreed. It's a problem of people who are so desperately afraid they give up critical thinking for a reassuring lie.

3) No, faith is not all we have nor is it a crutch for thinking or reasoning, that misconstrued definition of faith needs to be permanently trashed. Of course there are people who are not interested in learning or expanding what they believe but that is not representative of Theists, that is an attribute in people, not just people with spiritual beliefs so you might find some idiots who use the word faith out of context simply because they have no desire to explain it, but that is not spiritual faith, spiritual faith is what Jesus knew of as well as Paul, however faith is a SINGLE element in the life of a Theist, it's not "all" we have.
Faith is a spiritual principle not a way to avoid reason, faith is substance that produces evidence, just keep that in mind when you go grabbing for the most despicable definition of faith you can possibly find, but even when you look at the definition the common translation is trust and confidence, so don't cheat yourself and your intellect just so you can get over on people give things some consideration.

If you had evidence, you'd not need faith. Faith has no substance and has never produced anything resembling valid evidence.

4) The Santa, fairies, gremlins crap has got to go. Not only are you wasting the time of others by dragging discussions through the gutters you are revealing what a moron you've become, no offence I can't think of a nicer word.
You need to get over this whole idea that believing in God or a Creator is like believing in a fairy tale, not only is that backwards thinking but it's well beyond words to describe how immature and weak peoples thinking are, would you actually go to another forum and argue over the existence of Santa all your life like Atheists do with religion?
If in every discussion Theists now have to account for the existence of fairies and gremlins this place needs a wake up call, it's time to break the surface because this is just getting out of control because it is working against productivity, and productivity is what we are looking for, not stagnation.
For some people they simply just want to belittle and mock people in subtle ways, they are angry and just want to make theistic ideas sound dumb.

So many wrongs here. Santa, fairies, and gremlins (among others) are all supernatural beings from the folklore of many locations. God is a supernatural being that originated in the folklore of several semi-nomadic tribes from the Middle East that was adopted by a European Emperor to help stabilize his government. Only that makes God any different from any other supernatural being.

Want to be productive? Simply admit you could be wrong and look objectively at evidence instead of dismissing anything that disagrees with
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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4/20/2015 2:35:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 2:18:27 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Don't be fooled, this little forum that is run wild with Atheists who can't understand why people are explaining spiritual concepts is not reality.
In the real world there is more spiritual beliefs than anything else period, not even a second runner up so it's time to expand your little box if you want to argue about the concepts of God and spirituality, this is not a science forum but a spiritual one, so that is what you will find, spirituality.

No evidence that anything spiritual exists.

Spiritual is not physical. it is not composed of matter and energy. What would you expect to be evidence of spiritual matter?

Anywhere it interacted with energy and matter, in any kind of miraculous event.

If the answer is you want direct physical evidence then you already no by definition that isn't possible.

So I keep saying but there's always someone claiming there is.

If the spirit interacts with the physical this interaction will be detectable and spirit affirmed indirectly. people have spiritual experiences and not all of them are clinically crazy. Some of them have perfectly healthy brains, well hydrated and oxygenated.

But none can be proven or tested or verified beyond personal anecdote. That's basically the same evidence we have for Bigfoot.

Can you show me what are your justifications are for saying "no evidence"?

You just gave it. " If the answer is you want direct physical evidence then you already no by definition that isn't possible."

Evidence does not have to be direct to be valid evidence. Ever hear of circumstantial evidence. Or indirect measurements?

Certainly. Why don't you provide me with some of that kind of evidence for your God's existence, something we can test, potentially falsify, and correlate with other possible causes for the phenomena in question?




These are not arguments they are suggestions.


Number one..... yes we Theists believe in a spiritual existence.....eternity, afterlife, plane ect.. whatever you want to label it yes, we do not believe that the material/natural world is all that exists. We believe basically that the physical world is just one stage of life, that is the easiest way to put it.
That STAGE, is interpreted through science, however science only is interpreting what it sees. What it sees is just the function of how material things operate that's it, it doesn't tell us anything other than that. You grab any object you find and you can see it and observe it for what it is and maybe even eventually learn how the object operates by studying it and learning it's function or even its purpose that is because this stage IS physical, it is independent, meaning it was created to function on it's own and for it to function on it's own there must be a system that works, there must be an operation that causes it to work and that is what we are seeing utilizing science.

But.... we are not dictated to just what science observes, science is only observing one stage of existence it does not account for everything. So when you continually badger Theists with the old "give me physical evidence" card at every turn, you are only working against yourself and wasting time because spiritual is not material, it's not based on material evidence like physical things.
If you want to understand the spiritual nature of all of this you need to grow out of this mindset, otherwise eventually you're just going to bore people to death because of your lack of understanding, others though just want to play games and this is the easiest route to achieve what they want.
So when you approach spiritual beliefs with science you are just splitting hairs.

No, we're asking you to demonstrate what you say has any merit.

2) No, not all Theists are indoctrinated, that is flat out stupidity and propaganda. Don't act like a brainwashed idiot when you come here and pretend like all Theists have been indoctrinated into what they believe, you may be surprised when you realize you made a huge mistake, ideas that derive from false assumptions equal false conclusions, there is a ton of that happening,, time to expand out of your box a little!
If you walk around believing Theists are indoctrinated because their parents dragged them to church that is a joke, people around the world who ARE in critical condition because of an indoctrination would spit on you, what an insult to people who actually suffer this. But this is not a representation of Theism, it's a representation of the world, it's a people problem not a spirituality problem.

Agreed. It's a problem of people who are so desperately afraid they give up critical thinking for a reassuring lie.

3) No, faith is not all we have nor is it a crutch for thinking or reasoning, that misconstrued definition of faith needs to be permanently trashed. Of course there are people who are not interested in learning or expanding what they believe but that is not representative of Theists, that is an attribute in people, not just people with spiritual beliefs so you might find some idiots who use the word faith out of context simply because they have no desire to explain it, but that is not spiritual faith, spiritual faith is what Jesus knew of as well as Paul, however faith is a SINGLE element in the life of a Theist, it's not "all" we have.
Faith is a spiritual principle not a way to avoid reason, faith is substance that produces evidence, just keep that in mind when you go grabbing for the most despicable definition of faith you can possibly find, but even when you look at the definition the common translation is trust and confidence, so don't cheat yourself and your intellect just so you can get over on people give things some consideration.

If you had evidence, you'd not need faith. Faith has no substance and has never produced anything resembling valid evidence.

4) The Santa, fairies, gremlins crap has got to go. Not only are you wasting the time of others by dragging discussions through the gutters you are revealing what a moron you've become, no offence I can't think of a nicer word.
You need to get over this whole idea that believing in God or a Creator is like believing in a fairy tale, not only is that backwards thinking but it's well beyond words to describe how immature and weak peoples thinking are, would you actually go to another forum and argue over the existence of Santa all your life like Atheists do with religion?
If in every discussion Theists now have to account for the existence of fairies and gremlins this place needs a wake up call, it's time to break the surface because this is just getting out of control because it is working against productivity, and productivity is what we are looking for, not stagnation.
For some people they simply just want to belittle and mock people in subtle ways, they are angry and just want to make theistic ideas sound dumb.

So many wrongs here. Santa, fairies, and gremlins (among others) are all supernatural beings from the folklore of many locations. God is a supernatural being that originated in the folklore of several semi-nomadic tribes from the Middle East that was adopted by a European Emperor to help stabilize his government. Only that makes God any different from any other supernatural being.

Want to be productive? Simply admit you could be wrong and look objectively at evidence instead of dismissing anything that disagrees with
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,566
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4/20/2015 2:37:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 2:18:27 PM, Mhykiel wrote:

Evidence does not have to be direct to be valid evidence. Ever hear of circumstantial evidence. Or indirect measurements?

"Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion of fact"like a fingerprint at the scene of a crime. By contrast, direct evidence supports the truth of an assertion directly"i.e., without need for any additional evidence or inference.

So, if you can provide us with God's fingerprint, perhaps then with additional evidence, you might have a case.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth