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Supernatural beliefs

davidh
Posts: 9
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4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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4/17/2015 6:43:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

Of course it depends on the content of what you are examining but supernatural beliefs are based on spiritual understanding and observation, whereas making stuff up is based on lying, the two are not mutual.
Logic, things that make sense or you know there could be truth to it is a good start to sorting things out and lying usually just collapses on itself at some point. It's pretty easy to recognize what could be plausible and what is junk, it doesn't take a real genius. A spiritual existence for example is without a doubt possible not only that but a great percentage of human existence have echoed this truth from the beginning.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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4/17/2015 7:38:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 6:43:35 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

Of course it depends on the content of what you are examining but supernatural beliefs are based on spiritual understanding and observation, whereas making stuff up is based on lying, the two are not mutual.

Sorry, but an observation is something to be observed by all, that's why it's called an observation. It isn't something you conjure in your imagination or have a dream about, that's called making stuff up.

Spiritual understanding? LOL. Wtf is that?

Logic, things that make sense or you know there could be truth to it is a good start to sorting things out and lying usually just collapses on itself at some point.

Sorry, but logic is the use of valid reasoning, not stuff you might believe is true, that would again be making stuff up.

It's pretty easy to recognize what could be plausible and what is junk, it doesn't take a real genius.

True, anything that people claim as "spiritual" is usually implausible junk

A spiritual existence for example is without a doubt possible not only that but a great percentage of human existence have echoed this truth from the beginning.

Appeal to Popularity fallacy. Lots of people have echoed visiting aliens, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster, too.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
davidh
Posts: 9
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4/18/2015 3:53:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 7:38:10 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 4/17/2015 6:43:35 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

Of course it depends on the content of what you are examining but supernatural beliefs are based on spiritual understanding and observation, whereas making stuff up is based on lying, the two are not mutual.

Sorry, but an observation is something to be observed by all, that's why it's called an observation. It isn't something you conjure in your imagination or have a dream about, that's called making stuff up.

Spiritual understanding? LOL. Wtf is that?

Logic, things that make sense or you know there could be truth to it is a good start to sorting things out and lying usually just collapses on itself at some point.

Sorry, but logic is the use of valid reasoning, not stuff you might believe is true, that would again be making stuff up.

It's pretty easy to recognize what could be plausible and what is junk, it doesn't take a real genius.

True, anything that people claim as "spiritual" is usually implausible junk

A spiritual existence for example is without a doubt possible not only that but a great percentage of human existence have echoed this truth from the beginning.

Appeal to Popularity fallacy. Lots of people have echoed visiting aliens, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster, too.

Nice analysis; I couldn't agree more. I think part of the problem is that many people view "spiritual experiences" as evidence of the supernatural.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,178
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4/18/2015 4:45:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 3:53:10 PM, davidh wrote:
At 4/17/2015 7:38:10 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Appeal to Popularity fallacy. Lots of people have echoed visiting aliens, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster, too.

Nice analysis; I couldn't agree more. I think part of the problem is that many people view "spiritual experiences" as evidence of the supernatural.

The only way we can understand reality is through experience.
This is not the same as 'what we believe we experience, is what is real'.

It is impossible to know Reality through logic and science. It is known only in intuition which is a direct vision and experience transcending intellectual processes and scientific observations and reasonings.

On Henri Bergson:
The normal way our intelligence works is guided by needs and thus the knowledge it gathers is not disinterested; it is relative knowledge. And how it gathers knowledge is through what Bergson calls "analysis," that is, the dividing of things according to perspectives taken.

Intuition therefore is a kind of experience, and indeed Bergson himself calls his thought "the true empiricism" (The Creative Mind, p. 175).

Bergsonian intuition then consists in entering into the thing, rather than going around it from the outside. This "entering into," for Bergson, gives us absolute knowledge.

http://plato.stanford.edu...

The only way we can truly understand something is from the inside. We must experience it.
Scientific observation and measurement is always from the outside, looking in, always a subjective perspective.

As to whether or not supernatural events are congruent with reality or not, since I have not experienced them, I can not say.

Who says, 'I had an experience, but it was not real.'?
This is not the same as 'I had an hallucination of a UFO, but the UFO was not real.'
If you experience something uncommon or unique, you will decide if it is real or not.
If you have all of the information you need to make your decision, what else can be said.
You decided it is real, so it is real.
If you allow your belief, what you know you experienced, to be swayed by others, you have appealed to authority for your Truth.
Will you let others decide your Reality, or will you decide it yourself?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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4/18/2015 4:52:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 3:53:10 PM, davidh wrote:
At 4/17/2015 7:38:10 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 4/17/2015 6:43:35 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

Of course it depends on the content of what you are examining but supernatural beliefs are based on spiritual understanding and observation, whereas making stuff up is based on lying, the two are not mutual.

Sorry, but an observation is something to be observed by all, that's why it's called an observation. It isn't something you conjure in your imagination or have a dream about, that's called making stuff up.
OBSERVATION
a statement about something you have noticed : a comment or remark

the act of careful watching and listening : the activity of paying close attention to someone or something in order to get information

something you notice by watching and listening

I like how you added the word "all".
http://www.merriam-webster.com...


Spiritual understanding? LOL. Wtf is that?

Logic, things that make sense or you know there could be truth to it is a good start to sorting things out and lying usually just collapses on itself at some point.

Sorry, but logic is the use of valid reasoning, not stuff you might believe is true, that would again be making stuff up.

It's pretty easy to recognize what could be plausible and what is junk, it doesn't take a real genius.

True, anything that people claim as "spiritual" is usually implausible junk

A spiritual existence for example is without a doubt possible not only that but a great percentage of human existence have echoed this truth from the beginning.

Appeal to Popularity fallacy. Lots of people have echoed visiting aliens, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster, too.

Nice analysis; I couldn't agree more. I think part of the problem is that many people view "spiritual experiences" as evidence of the supernatural.

You believe it's a nice analysis that all spiritual observation is made up? But I can tell you from experience that you're wrong, I don't just make stuff up otherwise I wouldn't say it now would I? Unless you two want to prove that I'm some liar, if that's the case good luck.

I repeat, making stuff up is based on lying, let the other poster prove his assertions that someone observing something spiritual is lying. Of course you need to know what lying means first "a deliberate untruth".
http://en.wikipedia.org...

But I like how you automatically side with the poster who claims another poster makes stuff up, care to support that analysis?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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4/18/2015 5:24:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 4:52:39 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/18/2015 3:53:10 PM, davidh wrote:
At 4/17/2015 7:38:10 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 4/17/2015 6:43:35 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

Of course it depends on the content of what you are examining but supernatural beliefs are based on spiritual understanding and observation, whereas making stuff up is based on lying, the two are not mutual.

Sorry, but an observation is something to be observed by all, that's why it's called an observation. It isn't something you conjure in your imagination or have a dream about, that's called making stuff up.
OBSERVATION
a statement about something you have noticed : a comment or remark

the act of careful watching and listening : the activity of paying close attention to someone or something in order to get information

something you notice by watching and listening

I like how you added the word "all".
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

The word "all" is implied if an observation is valid, everyone should be able to observe the same thing, like the effects of gravity, for example. If it's an observation in your head, then it's probably just an hallucination.


Spiritual understanding? LOL. Wtf is that?

Logic, things that make sense or you know there could be truth to it is a good start to sorting things out and lying usually just collapses on itself at some point.

Sorry, but logic is the use of valid reasoning, not stuff you might believe is true, that would again be making stuff up.

It's pretty easy to recognize what could be plausible and what is junk, it doesn't take a real genius.

True, anything that people claim as "spiritual" is usually implausible junk

A spiritual existence for example is without a doubt possible not only that but a great percentage of human existence have echoed this truth from the beginning.

Appeal to Popularity fallacy. Lots of people have echoed visiting aliens, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster, too.

Nice analysis; I couldn't agree more. I think part of the problem is that many people view "spiritual experiences" as evidence of the supernatural.

You believe it's a nice analysis that all spiritual observation is made up? But I can tell you from experience that you're wrong, I don't just make stuff up otherwise I wouldn't say it now would I? Unless you two want to prove that I'm some liar, if that's the case good luck.

I repeat, making stuff up is based on lying, let the other poster prove his assertions that someone observing something spiritual is lying. Of course you need to know what lying means first "a deliberate untruth".
http://en.wikipedia.org...

But I like how you automatically side with the poster who claims another poster makes stuff up, care to support that analysis?

I'm sure you do believe your hallucinations are real, somehow, no one needs to call you a liar or try to prove it.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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4/18/2015 5:26:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

First, I think it's important to recognize that there are various 'realms' of existence; different, but inter-related. For example, there is the material realm of existence, governed by the laws of physics. There is the intellectual realm of existence that being created by via consciousness, and that's governed by memory, reason, emotion, and our animal needs. And there is a spirit realm of existence, also created via consciousness, but governed by intuition, mystery, chance/circumstance, and sub-conscious awareness.

Theists and atheists alike often become confused about these various realms of existence because they have multiple manifestations that cross the delineations between them; like the way human thought is produced via physical mechanisms in the brain even as the idea that we experience is of a completely different and immaterial 'nature'. The nature of a thought is not material, it's conceptual. Even though there is a material component involved in it's manifestation.

In answer to your question this confusion results in the very odd and irrational idea, among both theists and atheists, that "God" must not be a natural phenomena, but rather some sort of "supernatural" phenomena. Even though we have no way to perceive such a state (as all our capacities for perception and comprehension are 'natural'). So the atheist claims that if the phenomena called "God" can be explained through natural means, then "God" doesn't exist. Which is quite irrational. While the theist claims that "supernatural feats" are the evidence that God does exists, which is equally irrational. And then both of them argue ad nauseam over the depth of the other's irrationality.

To help clarify: the spirit realm is not "supernatural". It is mysterious, intuitive, and often subtle, but it is as real as any other experience we perceive of 'being here' and being human.

If anything is "supernatural", I don't believe we "natural" beings could even perceive it. How could we? By what natural mechanism?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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4/18/2015 5:32:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 5:26:58 PM, PureX wrote:
And there is a spirit realm of existence, also created via consciousness, but governed by intuition, mystery, chance/circumstance, and sub-conscious awareness.

True, I have heard of the spirit realm being referred to as the FOHA realm and MUBS realm.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Rosco_P_Coletrain
Posts: 143
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4/18/2015 7:09:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

I was with a group of people once and suddenly everything in the room that was not tied down started flying all over the place.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/18/2015 7:10:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

Supernatural is defined in the dictionary as: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

What distinguishes Supernatural from Natural explanations is the current ignorance of mankind's understanding. Just because an event becomes better understood doesn't remove the essence of the event, but brings it into a more articulated terminology to understand it.

Something is just made up has no presence external to the mind.

So if something has an element that is external to a person's mind then it is not "made up"

If these elements can not be explained by current understanding of science then it is listed as "supernatural"

For instance ball-lightning is a supernatural event. Probably not outside the realm of understanding scientifically. But seems generally accepted, ball lightning has been used as an scientific explanation for other events.

ball lighting is not understood by science, it's composition, and how it interacts with the environment, and what conditions cause it to emerge are not at all known.
dee-em
Posts: 6,475
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4/18/2015 10:47:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 7:09:23 PM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

I was with a group of people once and suddenly everything in the room that was not tied down started flying all over the place.

It's called an earthquake.
Rosco_P_Coletrain
Posts: 143
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4/19/2015 1:47:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 10:47:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/18/2015 7:09:23 PM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

I was with a group of people once and suddenly everything in the room that was not tied down started flying all over the place.

It's called an earthquake.

Your close. I was going to deliver the punch line if somebody bit, but nobody did.

I was going to say, Oh what a brawl that was, everyone picking up everything and throwing it at each other.

I thought about saying it was a tornado but realized that I had said it was in a room, so had to rule that out.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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4/19/2015 4:03:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

Supernatural things are apparently unable to be explained by science or the laws of nature.

"Making things up" can be explained logically. It is the process of using ones imagination creatively or simply lying.

EG..
Anyone can make up mythical characters.
Some believe those characters and supernatural and some believe they are just imaginary.
The difference in belief depends on whether the person is mature or immature in their mind.
Immature people tend to get lost in their own "imaginary world" of "happy ever after"
Mature people prefer to live in reality.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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4/19/2015 4:08:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 7:09:23 PM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

I was with a group of people once and suddenly everything in the room that was not tied down started flying all over the place.

Cyclone problem? Someone forgot to shut a window or door?
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,178
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4/19/2015 6:18:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 7:10:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

Supernatural is defined in the dictionary as: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

What distinguishes Supernatural from Natural explanations is the current ignorance of mankind's understanding. Just because an event becomes better understood doesn't remove the essence of the event, but brings it into a more articulated terminology to understand it.

Something is just made up has no presence external to the mind.

So if something has an element that is external to a person's mind then it is not "made up"

If these elements can not be explained by current understanding of science then it is listed as "supernatural"

For instance ball-lightning is a supernatural event. Probably not outside the realm of understanding scientifically. But seems generally accepted, ball lightning has been used as an scientific explanation for other events.

ball lighting is not understood by science, it's composition, and how it interacts with the environment, and what conditions cause it to emerge are not at all known.

From my experience with friends, and readings, the most commonly reported supernatural event would be a miraculous cure.
Tumors or growths disappear.
Substantiated prognosis suddenly reversed.
I am not talking about faith healers, although they may be included. I am referring to closely monitored medical treatment.
They seen to satisfy your criteria.

Something is just made up has no presence external to the mind.

I have heard many, many stories where two or more individuals experienced apparitions.
Intelligent, sober, honest, mature individuals.
Who is to say it happened external to the mind, except the individuals.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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4/19/2015 6:23:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 6:18:28 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 4/18/2015 7:10:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

Supernatural is defined in the dictionary as: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

What distinguishes Supernatural from Natural explanations is the current ignorance of mankind's understanding. Just because an event becomes better understood doesn't remove the essence of the event, but brings it into a more articulated terminology to understand it.

Something is just made up has no presence external to the mind.

So if something has an element that is external to a person's mind then it is not "made up"

If these elements can not be explained by current understanding of science then it is listed as "supernatural"

For instance ball-lightning is a supernatural event. Probably not outside the realm of understanding scientifically. But seems generally accepted, ball lightning has been used as an scientific explanation for other events.

ball lighting is not understood by science, it's composition, and how it interacts with the environment, and what conditions cause it to emerge are not at all known.

From my experience with friends, and readings, the most commonly reported supernatural event would be a miraculous cure.
Tumors or growths disappear.
Substantiated prognosis suddenly reversed.
I am not talking about faith healers, although they may be included. I am referring to closely monitored medical treatment.
They seen to satisfy your criteria.

Something is just made up has no presence external to the mind.

I have heard many, many stories where two or more individuals experienced apparitions.
Intelligent, sober, honest, mature individuals.
Who is to say it happened external to the mind, except the individuals.

I have had experience of the so called 'supernatural' since I drew breath. However, I am still a total sceptic thinking there is a natural explanation for all the really weird phenomena I have experienced in my 65 years on this planet!
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/19/2015 11:54:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 6:18:28 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 4/18/2015 7:10:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

Supernatural is defined in the dictionary as: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

What distinguishes Supernatural from Natural explanations is the current ignorance of mankind's understanding. Just because an event becomes better understood doesn't remove the essence of the event, but brings it into a more articulated terminology to understand it.

Something is just made up has no presence external to the mind.

So if something has an element that is external to a person's mind then it is not "made up"

If these elements can not be explained by current understanding of science then it is listed as "supernatural"

For instance ball-lightning is a supernatural event. Probably not outside the realm of understanding scientifically. But seems generally accepted, ball lightning has been used as an scientific explanation for other events.

ball lighting is not understood by science, it's composition, and how it interacts with the environment, and what conditions cause it to emerge are not at all known.

From my experience with friends, and readings, the most commonly reported supernatural event would be a miraculous cure.
Tumors or growths disappear.
Substantiated prognosis suddenly reversed.
I am not talking about faith healers, although they may be included. I am referring to closely monitored medical treatment.
They seen to satisfy your criteria.

Something is just made up has no presence external to the mind.

I have heard many, many stories where two or more individuals experienced apparitions.
Intelligent, sober, honest, mature individuals.
Who is to say it happened external to the mind, except the individuals.

Well if more than one person saw the same subject at the same time, that would imply it is outside their mind.

Mass hallucination is a fake explanation. In history there have been cases of mass hysteria. Theses cases have the community under pressure, and the unreal sightings are by individuals at different times in different places.

Sense mutually agreeable observations are the root to peer review in science, it is perfectly rational to accept an external event and stimuli happened when more than 1 person see something, especially if those people are strangers.
davidh
Posts: 9
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4/19/2015 4:44:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 6:18:28 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 4/18/2015 7:10:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

Supernatural is defined in the dictionary as: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

What distinguishes Supernatural from Natural explanations is the current ignorance of mankind's understanding. Just because an event becomes better understood doesn't remove the essence of the event, but brings it into a more articulated terminology to understand it.

Something is just made up has no presence external to the mind.

So if something has an element that is external to a person's mind then it is not "made up"

If these elements can not be explained by current understanding of science then it is listed as "supernatural"

For instance ball-lightning is a supernatural event. Probably not outside the realm of understanding scientifically. But seems generally accepted, ball lightning has been used as an scientific explanation for other events.

ball lighting is not understood by science, it's composition, and how it interacts with the environment, and what conditions cause it to emerge are not at all known.

From my experience with friends, and readings, the most commonly reported supernatural event would be a miraculous cure.
Tumors or growths disappear.
Substantiated prognosis suddenly reversed.
I am not talking about faith healers, although they may be included. I am referring to closely monitored medical treatment.
They seen to satisfy your criteria.

A medical mystery is not a claim to the supernatural, unless you claim that "God did it". It is simply a mystery.

Something is just made up has no presence external to the mind.

I have heard many, many stories where two or more individuals experienced apparitions.
Intelligent, sober, honest, mature individuals.
Who is to say it happened external to the mind, except the individuals.

This is my point. I wouldn't accuse these people of making up their story; the problem is I can't distinguish their tale of apparitions from a similar tale that is made up.
davidh
Posts: 9
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4/19/2015 5:37:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 4:45:01 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 4/18/2015 3:53:10 PM, davidh wrote:
At 4/17/2015 7:38:10 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Appeal to Popularity fallacy. Lots of people have echoed visiting aliens, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster, too.

Nice analysis; I couldn't agree more. I think part of the problem is that many people view "spiritual experiences" as evidence of the supernatural.

The only way we can understand reality is through experience.
This is not the same as 'what we believe we experience, is what is real'.

It is impossible to know Reality through logic and science. It is known only in intuition which is a direct vision and experience transcending intellectual processes and scientific observations and reasonings.

The opposite is true. Science is the best tool we have for determining what is actually true about the world.

On Henri Bergson:
The normal way our intelligence works is guided by needs and thus the knowledge it gathers is not disinterested; it is relative knowledge. And how it gathers knowledge is through what Bergson calls "analysis," that is, the dividing of things according to perspectives taken.

Intuition therefore is a kind of experience, and indeed Bergson himself calls his thought "the true empiricism" (The Creative Mind, p. 175).

Bergsonian intuition then consists in entering into the thing, rather than going around it from the outside. This "entering into," for Bergson, gives us absolute knowledge.

http://plato.stanford.edu...

The only way we can truly understand something is from the inside. We must experience it.
Scientific observation and measurement is always from the outside, looking in, always a subjective perspective.

As to whether or not supernatural events are congruent with reality or not, since I have not experienced them, I can not say.

Who says, 'I had an experience, but it was not real.'?
This is not the same as 'I had an hallucination of a UFO, but the UFO was not real.'
If you experience something uncommon or unique, you will decide if it is real or not.
If you have all of the information you need to make your decision, what else can be said.
You decided it is real, so it is real.
If you allow your belief, what you know you experienced, to be swayed by others, you have appealed to authority for your Truth.
Will you let others decide your Reality, or will you decide it yourself?
PetersSmith
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4/19/2015 5:41:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

I think supernatural beliefs are based on experiences and try to rationalize something that the people couldn't understand at the time.
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davidh
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4/19/2015 5:46:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 4:52:39 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/18/2015 3:53:10 PM, davidh wrote:
At 4/17/2015 7:38:10 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 4/17/2015 6:43:35 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

Of course it depends on the content of what you are examining but supernatural beliefs are based on spiritual understanding and observation, whereas making stuff up is based on lying, the two are not mutual.

Sorry, but an observation is something to be observed by all, that's why it's called an observation. It isn't something you conjure in your imagination or have a dream about, that's called making stuff up.
OBSERVATION
a statement about something you have noticed : a comment or remark

the act of careful watching and listening : the activity of paying close attention to someone or something in order to get information

something you notice by watching and listening

I like how you added the word "all".
http://www.merriam-webster.com...


Spiritual understanding? LOL. Wtf is that?

Logic, things that make sense or you know there could be truth to it is a good start to sorting things out and lying usually just collapses on itself at some point.

Sorry, but logic is the use of valid reasoning, not stuff you might believe is true, that would again be making stuff up.

It's pretty easy to recognize what could be plausible and what is junk, it doesn't take a real genius.

True, anything that people claim as "spiritual" is usually implausible junk

A spiritual existence for example is without a doubt possible not only that but a great percentage of human existence have echoed this truth from the beginning.

Appeal to Popularity fallacy. Lots of people have echoed visiting aliens, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster, too.

Nice analysis; I couldn't agree more. I think part of the problem is that many people view "spiritual experiences" as evidence of the supernatural.

You believe it's a nice analysis that all spiritual observation is made up? But I can tell you from experience that you're wrong, I don't just make stuff up otherwise I wouldn't say it now would I? Unless you two want to prove that I'm some liar, if that's the case good luck.

No, I do not think spiritual observation is made up (quite the opposite). I just don't know how to distinguish reports of the supernatural from similar claims that are made up.

I repeat, making stuff up is based on lying, let the other poster prove his assertions that someone observing something spiritual is lying. Of course you need to know what lying means first "a deliberate untruth".
http://en.wikipedia.org...

But I like how you automatically side with the poster who claims another poster makes stuff up, care to support that analysis?
davidh
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4/19/2015 5:53:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 4:52:39 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/18/2015 3:53:10 PM, davidh wrote:
At 4/17/2015 7:38:10 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 4/17/2015 6:43:35 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

Of course it depends on the content of what you are examining but supernatural beliefs are based on spiritual understanding and observation, whereas making stuff up is based on lying, the two are not mutual.

Sorry, but an observation is something to be observed by all, that's why it's called an observation. It isn't something you conjure in your imagination or have a dream about, that's called making stuff up.
OBSERVATION
a statement about something you have noticed : a comment or remark

the act of careful watching and listening : the activity of paying close attention to someone or something in order to get information

something you notice by watching and listening

I like how you added the word "all".
http://www.merriam-webster.com...


Spiritual understanding? LOL. Wtf is that?

Logic, things that make sense or you know there could be truth to it is a good start to sorting things out and lying usually just collapses on itself at some point.

Sorry, but logic is the use of valid reasoning, not stuff you might believe is true, that would again be making stuff up.

It's pretty easy to recognize what could be plausible and what is junk, it doesn't take a real genius.

True, anything that people claim as "spiritual" is usually implausible junk

A spiritual existence for example is without a doubt possible not only that but a great percentage of human existence have echoed this truth from the beginning.

Appeal to Popularity fallacy. Lots of people have echoed visiting aliens, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster, too.

Nice analysis; I couldn't agree more. I think part of the problem is that many people view "spiritual experiences" as evidence of the supernatural.

You believe it's a nice analysis that all spiritual observation is made up? But I can tell you from experience that you're wrong, I don't just make stuff up otherwise I wouldn't say it now would I? Unless you two want to prove that I'm some liar, if that's the case good luck.

I repeat, making stuff up is based on lying, let the other poster prove his assertions that someone observing something spiritual is lying. Of course you need to know what lying means first "a deliberate untruth".
http://en.wikipedia.org...

But I like how you automatically side with the poster who claims another poster makes stuff up, care to support that analysis?

I don't think he was accusing anyone of making stuff up. I thought his reply did a nice job of pointing out that it amounts to the same thing. I'm sure people who claim to have seen a ghost actually believe they saw one. I just can't distinguish that claim from a made-up claim.
Skyangel
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4/19/2015 8:51:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 5:53:09 PM, davidh wrote:
At 4/18/2015 4:52:39 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

I repeat, making stuff up is based on lying, let the other poster prove his assertions that someone observing something spiritual is lying. Of course you need to know what lying means first "a deliberate untruth".
http://en.wikipedia.org...

When people fool themselves with their own delusions, fantasies or "make-believe", are they deliberately lying to themselves?
When someone sincerely believes a lie is the truth are they deliberately lying when they present it as a truth?

But I like how you automatically side with the poster who claims another poster makes stuff up, care to support that analysis?

I don't think he was accusing anyone of making stuff up. I thought his reply did a nice job of pointing out that it amounts to the same thing. I'm sure people who claim to have seen a ghost actually believe they saw one. I just can't distinguish that claim from a made-up claim.

There is a vast difference between deliberate lying and simply repeating a lie which you are convinced is true.
Leading people astray deliberately is a con job.
Leading people astray as a result of being misled yourself is an error.
Leading yourself astray is something people are unaware of in the process of doing it. If they were aware of their own self deception, would they remain deceived? Does anyone deliberately deceive themselves?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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4/20/2015 7:52:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 8:51:34 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 4/19/2015 5:53:09 PM, davidh wrote:
At 4/18/2015 4:52:39 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

I repeat, making stuff up is based on lying, let the other poster prove his assertions that someone observing something spiritual is lying. Of course you need to know what lying means first "a deliberate untruth".
http://en.wikipedia.org...

When people fool themselves with their own delusions, fantasies or "make-believe", are they deliberately lying to themselves?
When someone sincerely believes a lie is the truth are they deliberately lying when they present it as a truth?

Why do you always speak for others rather than yourself?? not sure why I would ask because all you will do is produce a word salad about how OTHER people believe in fantasies, I mean how many times are you gonna say that. I f you would speak for yourself maybe someone might actually consider your views, which are unclear because all you do is point fingers.

But I like how you automatically side with the poster who claims another poster makes stuff up, care to support that analysis?

I don't think he was accusing anyone of making stuff up. I thought his reply did a nice job of pointing out that it amounts to the same thing. I'm sure people who claim to have seen a ghost actually believe they saw one. I just can't distinguish that claim from a made-up claim.

There is a vast difference between deliberate lying and simply repeating a lie which you are convinced is true.
Leading people astray deliberately is a con job.
Leading people astray as a result of being misled yourself is an error.
Leading yourself astray is something people are unaware of in the process of doing it. If they were aware of their own self deception, would they remain deceived? Does anyone deliberately deceive themselves?

And again, you are speaking for others rather than yourself, this is a real problem for you I noticed. Can you share what truth you have produced in this post besides assuming what others do? Perhaps you need a break from your fantasy world where you believe only you are speaking truth.
And no I don't need you to write me a book these questions should be simple, so release the temptation to try and manipulate something simple with too many words.
Skyangel
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4/20/2015 6:48:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 7:52:58 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/19/2015 8:51:34 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 4/19/2015 5:53:09 PM, davidh wrote:
At 4/18/2015 4:52:39 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

I repeat, making stuff up is based on lying, let the other poster prove his assertions that someone observing something spiritual is lying. Of course you need to know what lying means first "a deliberate untruth".
http://en.wikipedia.org...

When people fool themselves with their own delusions, fantasies or "make-believe", are they deliberately lying to themselves?
When someone sincerely believes a lie is the truth are they deliberately lying when they present it as a truth?

Why do you always speak for others rather than yourself?? not sure why I would ask because all you will do is produce a word salad about how OTHER people believe in fantasies, I mean how many times are you gonna say that. I f you would speak for yourself maybe someone might actually consider your views, which are unclear because all you do is point fingers.

When I speak in a general way, do you think I do not include myself in the general concepts?
Have you ever heard the saying that when we point a finger at others there are three fingers pointing back at us?
I am fully aware that all I say and accuse others of also applies to me. Human nature is what it is. Some just understand it better than others.

I don't think he was accusing anyone of making stuff up. I thought his reply did a nice job of pointing out that it amounts to the same thing. I'm sure people who claim to have seen a ghost actually believe they saw one. I just can't distinguish that claim from a made-up claim.

There is a vast difference between deliberate lying and simply repeating a lie which you are convinced is true.
Leading people astray deliberately is a con job.
Leading people astray as a result of being misled yourself is an error.
Leading yourself astray is something people are unaware of in the process of doing it. If they were aware of their own self deception, would they remain deceived? Does anyone deliberately deceive themselves?

And again, you are speaking for others rather than yourself, this is a real problem for you I noticed. Can you share what truth you have produced in this post besides assuming what others do? Perhaps you need a break from your fantasy world where you believe only you are speaking truth.

The problem is not in the way I express myself but in the way you interpret my words. You are the one who presumes I do not include myself in my own general statements when I am fully aware that all I say about people includes me as a person.
If anyone needs a break from fantasy, maybe it is you who cannot see that I include myself in my general statements about people. You seem to believe I have a problem when the problem is clearly yours.
The truth is all people including you and me are like those pots and kettles calling each other black and denying they are just as black as the person they accuse of being black.

I can see that about all people including myself. I also see that most others cannot see it is true about themselves even if they can see it is true about others.
davidh
Posts: 9
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4/21/2015 11:59:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 8:51:34 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 4/19/2015 5:53:09 PM, davidh wrote:
At 4/18/2015 4:52:39 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

I repeat, making stuff up is based on lying, let the other poster prove his assertions that someone observing something spiritual is lying. Of course you need to know what lying means first "a deliberate untruth".
http://en.wikipedia.org...

When people fool themselves with their own delusions, fantasies or "make-believe", are they deliberately lying to themselves?
When someone sincerely believes a lie is the truth are they deliberately lying when they present it as a truth?

But I like how you automatically side with the poster who claims another poster makes stuff up, care to support that analysis?

I don't think he was accusing anyone of making stuff up. I thought his reply did a nice job of pointing out that it amounts to the same thing. I'm sure people who claim to have seen a ghost actually believe they saw one. I just can't distinguish that claim from a made-up claim.

There is a vast difference between deliberate lying and simply repeating a lie which you are convinced is true.
Leading people astray deliberately is a con job.
Leading people astray as a result of being misled yourself is an error.
Leading yourself astray is something people are unaware of in the process of doing it. If they were aware of their own self deception, would they remain deceived? Does anyone deliberately deceive themselves?

My original question dealt with the distinction between supernatural claims and made up claims. The nature of made up claims, whether they are deliberate lies, repeating a dubious claim, etc., is completely beside the point. My point is that because I can't distinguish between supernatural claims and made up claims, then the supernatural claims may as well be made up, and therefore, not believable by me.

For example, church leaders claim that my consciousness, or "soul" will somehow survive my biological death. Since there is no basis to make such an extraordinary claim, I consider it no different than a made up claim. Indeed, since it would seem to contradict the sciences of biology, physics and neurology, it could be considered a morally dubious claim, even though their intentions are good in making it.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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4/21/2015 12:49:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 7:10:15 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/17/2015 3:44:10 PM, davidh wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between supernatural beliefs and just making stuff up? Can any of the theists out there tell me that?

Supernatural is defined in the dictionary as: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Key word: "attributed". Who are making the attributions? Those who are of the mindset of incredulity and ignorance that jump to erroneous conclusions of phenomena they don't understand. It's the typical "Goddunit" conclusion.

What distinguishes Supernatural from Natural explanations is the current ignorance of mankind's understanding. Just because an event becomes better understood doesn't remove the essence of the event, but brings it into a more articulated terminology to understand it.

Something is just made up has no presence external to the mind.

So if something has an element that is external to a person's mind then it is not "made up"

If these elements can not be explained by current understanding of science then it is listed as "supernatural"

For instance ball-lightning is a supernatural event. Probably not outside the realm of understanding scientifically. But seems generally accepted, ball lightning has been used as an scientific explanation for other events.

ball lighting is not understood by science, it's composition, and how it interacts with the environment, and what conditions cause it to emerge are not at all known.

And yet, I already produced a link showing otherwise. Of course, you'll ignore or deny any facts brought to you and will continue to spew the same nonsense, notwithstanding.
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Skyangel
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4/21/2015 5:36:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/21/2015 11:59:39 AM, davidh wrote:
At 4/19/2015 8:51:34 PM, Skyangel wrote:
There is a vast difference between deliberate lying and simply repeating a lie which you are convinced is true.
Leading people astray deliberately is a con job.
Leading people astray as a result of being misled yourself is an error.
Leading yourself astray is something people are unaware of in the process of doing it. If they were aware of their own self deception, would they remain deceived? Does anyone deliberately deceive themselves?

My original question dealt with the distinction between supernatural claims and made up claims. The nature of made up claims, whether they are deliberate lies, repeating a dubious claim, etc., is completely beside the point. My point is that because I can't distinguish between supernatural claims and made up claims, then the supernatural claims may as well be made up, and therefore, not believable by me.

That is a fair reason to not believe them.
Many people cannot distinguish the difference between them. They simply call their made up claims supernatural when they cannot explain their experiences any other way and do not wish to believe their own mind is fooling them.

For example, church leaders claim that my consciousness, or "soul" will somehow survive my biological death. Since there is no basis to make such an extraordinary claim, I consider it no different than a made up claim. Indeed, since it would seem to contradict the sciences of biology, physics and neurology, it could be considered a morally dubious claim, even though their intentions are good in making it.

In reality no one knows where individual consciousness and self awareness goes when people die.
Any stories about life after death are a matter of perspective and interpretation of the concept itself.

I can see it from a point of view where life does go on in reality and also from a perspective where it does not. I can also see it from the "made up" or fictional point of view where "spirits" or "souls" live happily ever after in some paradise where there is no more pain or suffering. Very few can see it from many different perspectives like I do.

It seems to me that most people have a very "one eyed view" or "one track mind."
Electric-Eccentric
Posts: 1,309
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4/21/2015 7:13:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Supernatural

what happens when we divide the word?

Super

Natural

What do those 2 words mean when examined in themselves?

They don't say much for clarity.

Add them together and what do you have?

Just most of the superstitious turned into man made concepts and ?understanding?

There IS "something" to the concepts of so called supernatural, miracles, karma and other such carnal minded human concepts.

You SEE the REAL picture clearly when you leave out the superstitious mindset.

Most can NOT do that as superstition rules them and ALL they know and believe. Or I should say, TRY and believe as they are filled with DOUBTS and confusion.

are YOU superstitious?

I AM not,

try your best spells and magic on me and see what happens.

POOF you go,lol...
Life is what YOU make it,
Most just try and fake it...