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Bible lacks concept of mental illness.

Harikrish
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4/18/2015 10:07:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Christians are led to believe all their problems stem from sin, spiritual weakness and demonic influences. There is little change in their attitudes towards the medical science that defines mental illness as physiological with little or no relationship to ones belief systems. The clergy still look to scriptures to deal with mental illness and its spiritual causes. They are not convinced there is medical evidence for the cause of mental illness. It is this denial and ignorance that leaves mentally ill Christians helpless to deal with their illness and are further burdened with archaic remedies that have no scientific basis.

Modern psychiatry diagnosed a few of the early biblical characters to uncover the cause for their extreme beliefs and world views riddled with a fantasma of delusions and self deception.

Here is how they diagnosed Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Paul:

a. "ABRAHAM: He is described as having had interactive mystical experiences of an auditory and visual nature (see Figure 1), that influenced his behaviors throughout most of his life (see Table 1). This phenomenology closely resembles that described in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR). Applying the DSM-IV-TR paradigm, Abraham"s auditory and visual perceptual experiences and behaviors could be understood as auditory hallucinations (AH), visual hallucinations (VH), delusions with religious content, and paranoid-type (schizophrenia subtype) thought content (see Table 1 for examples). " Abraham"s clinical profile would appear to best resemble that of Paranoid Schizophrenic or Psychotic Disorder, Not Otherwise Specified, and perhaps, less likely, an affective disorder-related psychosis. Abraham stands as the earliest case of a possible psychotic disorder in literature." (The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered, Evan D. Murray, M.D. Miles G. Cunningham, M.D., Ph.D. Bruce H. Price, M.D., The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences 2012; 24:410-426)

b. "MOSES: Moses had perceptual experiences and behaviors that find closest parallel today with the DSM-IV-TR"defined phenomena of command Auditory Hallucinations, Visual Hallucinations, hyperreligiosity, grandiosity, delusions, paranoia, referential thinking, and phobia (about people viewing his face). (See Table 3 for examples.) Many of these features may occur together in schizophrenia, affective disorders, and schizoaffective disorder. Moses also did not appear to have any disorganization, catatonia, or negative psychiatric symptoms, or difficulties with concentration, attention, and memory (see Table 2). Criterion A for schizophrenia could theoretically be fulfilled by his experiences that resemble delusions and hallucinations. In fulfillment of Criterion B, Moses" social and occupational functioning could be said to have declined from that of a presumably educated member of the Egyptian royal family to having fled Egyptian society to become a shepherd working on the periphery of the desert in a foreign land (Exodus 2: 15"22). His flight from Egypt occurred before the onset of Auditory Hallucinations and Visual Hallucinations, thereby suggesting a prodromal decline in functioning before the onset of psychosis. A prodrome refers to the early symptoms and signs of an illness that precede the characteristic manifestations of the acute, fully developed illness. A prodromal period may precede the onset of schizophrenia by months to up to 10 years in 70% of patients33 and up to 20 years in some cases. The period over which Moses had these experiences was in excess of 40 years, fulfilling Criterion " It should be noted that the religious writings attributed to Moses" authorship, the Pentateuch, could suggest the presence of an exaggerated urge to write. Such hypergraphia is a nonspecific finding more commonly associated with mania, hypomania, or mixed states; however, it is also a feature of schizophrenia and temporal lobe epilepsy. " Therefore, mood disorder-associated psychoses remain quite viable in the case of Moses. " The criteria for diagnosis of Paranoid Schizophrenia would be fulfilled by the pre-dominance of delusions and hallucinations in the absence of disorganization, negative psychiatric symptoms, or cognitive impairment. An increased propensity for violence has been observed in some individuals with Paranoid Schizophrenia Moses" increased propensity for violence could be viewed as corroborative for a diagnosis of Paranoid Schizophrenia. Reasonable diagnostic alternatives might include Psychotic Disorder, Not Otherwise Specified, bipolar disorder, and schizoaffective disorder. If the first five books of the bible are credited to Moses" authorship, then a bipolar disorder or perhaps schizoaffective disorder would be more compatible with his writing abilities." (The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered, Evan D. Murray, M.D. Miles G. Cunningham, M.D., Ph.D. Bruce H. Price, M.D., The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences 2012; 24:410-426)

c. "JESUS: The New Testament (NT) recalls Jesus as having experienced and shown behavior closely resembling the DSM-IV-TR"defined phenomena of Auditory Hallucinations, Visual Hallucinations, delusions, referential thinking (see Figure 3), paranoid-type (Paranoid Schizophrenic subtype) thought content, and hyperreligiosity " In terms of potential causes of perceptual and behavioral changes, it might be asked whether starvation and metabolic derangements were present. The hallucinatory-like experiences that Jesus had in the desert while he fasted for 40 days (Luke 4:1"13) may have been induced by starvation and metabolic derangements. " The absence of physical maladies or apparent epilepsy leaves primary psychiatric etiologies as more plausible. As seen with the previous cases, Jesus" experiences can be potentially conceptualized within the framework of Paranoid Schizophrenia or Psychosis Not Otherwise Specified. Other reasonable possibilities might include bipolar and schizoaffective disorders. There is a 5%-10% lifetime risk of suicide in persons with schizophrenia. Suicide is defined as a self-inflicted death with evidence of an intention to end one"s life. The New Testament recounts Jesus" awareness that people intended to kill him and his taking steps to avoid peril until the time at which he permitted his apprehension. In advance, he explained to his followers the necessity of his death as prelude for his return (Matthew 16:21"28; Mark 8:31; John 16:16"28). If this occurred in the manner described, then Jesus appears to have deliberately placed himself in circumstances wherein he anticipated his execution. Although schizophrenia is associated with an increased risk of suicide, this would not be a typical case. The more common mood-disorder accompaniments of suicide, such as depression, hopelessness, and social isolation, were not present, but other risk factors, such as age and male gender, were present. Suicide-by-proxy is described as "any incident in which a suicidal individual causes his or her death to be carried out by another person." There is a potential parallel of Jesus" beliefs and behavior leading up to his death to that of one who premeditates a form of suicide-by-proxy." (The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered, Evan D. Murray, M.D. Miles G. Cunningham, M.D., Ph.D. Bruce H. Price, M.D., The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences 2012; 24:410-426)
Harikrish
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4/18/2015 10:08:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
d. "ST. PAUL: It has been speculated that his religious experiences resulted from temporal lobe epilepsy. We would argue that it is not necessary to invoke epilepsy as an explanation for these experiences. St Paul"s mood in his letters ranged from ecstatic to tears of sorrow, suggesting marked mood swings. He endorsed an abundance of sublime auditory and visual perceptual experiences (2 Corinthians 12:2-9) that resemble grandiose hallucinations with delusional thought content. He manifested increased religiosity and fears of evil spirits, which resembles paranoia. These features may occur together, in association with primary and mood disorder-associated psychotic conditions. In 2 Corinthians 12:7, St Paul relates "a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger from Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated." This thorn has been speculated to be a reference to epilepsy. Other theories have proposed that the thorn was a physical infirmity, the opposition of his fellow Jews, or a harassing demon. " We propose that he perceived an apparition or voice that he understood to be a harassing, demonic messenger from Satan. This perception might have afflicted him with some amount of negative commentary of the type characteristic for psychotic conditions, resulting in psychological distress. ... Paul does, however, manifest a number of personality characteristics similar to the interictal personality traits described by Geshwind, such as deepened emotions; possibly circumstantial thought; increased concern with philosophical, moral and religious issues; increased writing, often on religious or philosophical themes; and, possibly, hyposexuality (1 Corinthians 7:8-9). These characteristics are controversial as to their specificity for epilepsy, with a preponderance of larger studies not confirming a specific personality type associated with seizure disorders. Similar features may also be present in bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. As previously mentioned, productive writing tends to be more strongly associated with mood disorders than psychosis or epilepsy. This is persuasive toward Paul having a mood disorder, rather than schizophrenia or epilepsy. " His perceptual experiences, mood variability, grandiose-like symptoms, increased concerns about religious purity, and paranoia-like symptoms could be viewed as resembling psychotic spectrum illness (see Table 1). Psychiatric diagnoses that might encompass his constellation of experiences and manifestations could include paranoid schizophrenia, psychosis NOS, mood disorder-associated psychosis, or schizoaffective disorder. Paul"s preserved ability to write and organize his thoughts would favor a mood disorder-associated explanation for his religious experiences." (The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered, Evan D. Murray, M.D. Miles G. Cunningham, M.D., Ph.D. Bruce H. Price, M.D., The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences 2012; 24:410-426)
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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4/18/2015 11:09:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think it quite possible that a number of the Biblical 'heroes' suffered from some sort of mental illness. The way the deity is depicted would suggest it is a psychopath if it exists.
Fly
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4/18/2015 11:16:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think that what we call mental illness or even epilepsy today, the writers of the Bible deemed it all as demonic possession.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
JJ50
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4/18/2015 11:18:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 11:16:47 AM, Fly wrote:
I think that what we call mental illness or even epilepsy today, the writers of the Bible deemed it all as demonic possession.

I agree. Sadly some still think people with mental illness are possessed by demons!!
Fly
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4/18/2015 11:32:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 11:18:19 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 4/18/2015 11:16:47 AM, Fly wrote:
I think that what we call mental illness or even epilepsy today, the writers of the Bible deemed it all as demonic possession.

I agree. Sadly some still think people with mental illness are possessed by demons!!

Yes, it is sad. The saddest story I have heard on the matter is the exorcism of Anneliese Michel. She was an epileptic schizophrenic who died during her multiple, long exorcisms. There is a German (I think) movie based on the tragedy. It also served as the inspiration for the much less realistic, much more sensationalist, supernatural horror film "The Exorcism of Emily Rose."
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
EtrnlVw
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4/18/2015 11:34:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Have you ever studied your own religion and it's followers lol? Because only a hypocrite would cite others and forget they fit into the same category, good job slick Hinduism has more mystic beliefs than any other.
DanneJeRusse
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4/18/2015 12:29:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 11:34:10 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Have you ever studied your own religion and it's followers lol? Because only a hypocrite would cite others and forget they fit into the same category, good job slick Hinduism has more mystic beliefs than any other.

I would have to agree with you on that. When one believer tries to show another religion is not valid, they have not looked in their own backyard and are being hypocritical.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Rosco_P_Coletrain
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4/18/2015 7:27:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 11:16:47 AM, Fly wrote:
I think that what we call mental illness or even epilepsy today, the writers of the Bible deemed it all as demonic possession.

Your comment made me think to look up what the word demon means. I cannot find the word even used in the KJV cross references.

So the I found that what is said is that it is the word "spirit" or "spirits" that the bible uses when speaking about people being possessed and I realized that a spirit does not have to be a person but is also used to denote attitudes within a person that cause them to act rashly.

But that is not all that word spirit can indicate because it only means that something we cannot directly see is showing it's presence by the blindness or deafness or the rashness and whatever else that might be happening to a person that produces it's results visibly to us by it's work in them.

For example, the demon possessed man from who his demons cried out as shown by these spirits speaking to Jesus could well have been just the man himself speaking from an ill spirit which could be his own ill emotions caused of whatever defect.

So I think there needs to be more thought put into the matter before we conclude that the Bible is just speaking in ignorance.
dee-em
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4/18/2015 10:01:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 7:27:50 PM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/18/2015 11:16:47 AM, Fly wrote:
I think that what we call mental illness or even epilepsy today, the writers of the Bible deemed it all as demonic possession.

Your comment made me think to look up what the word demon means. I cannot find the word even used in the KJV cross references.

The KJV has them as devils but here is Matthew 8 in a modern translation:

Jesus Restores Two Demon-Possessed Men
28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,[c] two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."

32 He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.


Jesus wasn't too popular with the townspeople!

So the I found that what is said is that it is the word "spirit" or "spirits" that the bible uses when speaking about people being possessed and I realized that a spirit does not have to be a person but is also used to denote attitudes within a person that cause them to act rashly.

But that is not all that word spirit can indicate because it only means that something we cannot directly see is showing it's presence by the blindness or deafness or the rashness and whatever else that might be happening to a person that produces it's results visibly to us by it's work in them.

For example, the demon possessed man from who his demons cried out as shown by these spirits speaking to Jesus could well have been just the man himself speaking from an ill spirit which could be his own ill emotions caused of whatever defect.

So I think there needs to be more thought put into the matter before we conclude that the Bible is just speaking in ignorance.

See above. It refutes your apologetics completely.
celestialtorahteacher
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4/18/2015 10:07:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Very stupid atheists attacking fictional Bible characters as if they were real persons and not the creations of priests and scribes of Judah. Now that is pathetic. Let us know when you go back to school and learn to tell the difference between religious propaganda stories and reality.
dee-em
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4/18/2015 10:22:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 10:07:13 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Very stupid atheists attacking fictional Bible characters as if they were real persons and not the creations of priests and scribes of Judah. Now that is pathetic. Let us know when you go back to school and learn to tell the difference between religious propaganda stories and reality.

Saul/Paul was fictitious? I might agree with you but could you elaborate. I mean, somebody wrote those epistes, right?
Mhykiel
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4/18/2015 11:45:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You did not support your statement that the bible does not have a concept of mental illness.

you showed diagnosis of biblical figures. Diagnoses based on a few sentences.

All under the assumption that what ever they saw that isn't seen by the majority of people today is a hallucination.

Your suggesting that because the bible did not refer to these people as crazy, which you deem is the likely truth, then the bible does not have a concept of mental illness.

Is that an accurate summary of your argument? I don't want to be blamed for straw manning.'

if it is I will then express why I think it is a non -sequitur.
Rosco_P_Coletrain
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4/19/2015 2:04:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 10:01:16 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/18/2015 7:27:50 PM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/18/2015 11:16:47 AM, Fly wrote:
I think that what we call mental illness or even epilepsy today, the writers of the Bible deemed it all as demonic possession.

Your comment made me think to look up what the word demon means. I cannot find the word even used in the KJV cross references.

The KJV has them as devils but here is Matthew 8 in a modern translation:

Jesus Restores Two Demon-Possessed Men
28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,[c] two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."

32 He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.


Jesus wasn't too popular with the townspeople!

So the I found that what is said is that it is the word "spirit" or "spirits" that the bible uses when speaking about people being possessed and I realized that a spirit does not have to be a person but is also used to denote attitudes within a person that cause them to act rashly.

But that is not all that word spirit can indicate because it only means that something we cannot directly see is showing it's presence by the blindness or deafness or the rashness and whatever else that might be happening to a person that produces it's results visibly to us by it's work in them.

For example, the demon possessed man from who his demons cried out as shown by these spirits speaking to Jesus could well have been just the man himself speaking from an ill spirit which could be his own ill emotions caused of whatever defect.

So I think there needs to be more thought put into the matter before we conclude that the Bible is just speaking in ignorance.

See above. It refutes your apologetics completely.

That makes me wonder why my cross reference would not pull it up but with that verse given above I was able to do a look-up on that word, "demon" and found out it is but an ill spirit, too.

A person's demons do not have to be a spirit being inhabiting them at all. It turns out that whether it calls them a demon or a spirit it is saying pretty much the same thing as I said.

Your demons are the things that addict you and thru that addiction control you.

Many abstract things are personified that way in writing. here is a good examples:

Revelation 9:6 "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

Revelation 6:8 "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

1 Corinthians 15:55 "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

It is the same way with that word demon. It is most often but a personified abstract.
dee-em
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4/19/2015 5:37:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 2:04:28 AM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/18/2015 10:01:16 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/18/2015 7:27:50 PM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/18/2015 11:16:47 AM, Fly wrote:
I think that what we call mental illness or even epilepsy today, the writers of the Bible deemed it all as demonic possession.

Your comment made me think to look up what the word demon means. I cannot find the word even used in the KJV cross references.

The KJV has them as devils but here is Matthew 8 in a modern translation:

Jesus Restores Two Demon-Possessed Men
28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,[c] two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."

32 He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.


Jesus wasn't too popular with the townspeople!

So the I found that what is said is that it is the word "spirit" or "spirits" that the bible uses when speaking about people being possessed and I realized that a spirit does not have to be a person but is also used to denote attitudes within a person that cause them to act rashly.

But that is not all that word spirit can indicate because it only means that something we cannot directly see is showing it's presence by the blindness or deafness or the rashness and whatever else that might be happening to a person that produces it's results visibly to us by it's work in them.

For example, the demon possessed man from who his demons cried out as shown by these spirits speaking to Jesus could well have been just the man himself speaking from an ill spirit which could be his own ill emotions caused of whatever defect.

So I think there needs to be more thought put into the matter before we conclude that the Bible is just speaking in ignorance.

See above. It refutes your apologetics completely.

That makes me wonder why my cross reference would not pull it up but with that verse given above I was able to do a look-up on that word, "demon" and found out it is but an ill spirit, too.

I told you exactly why. The KJV uses the word "devils" instead of "demons".

A person's demons do not have to be a spirit being inhabiting them at all. It turns out that whether it calls them a demon or a spirit it is saying pretty much the same thing as I said.

Did you even read the verses? The demons spoke to Jesus and asked to be cast out into the pig herd rather than being tortured. He obliged. In the context of the text, your interpretation makes absolutely no sense.

Your demons are the things that addict you and thru that addiction control you.

*sigh* Do you really think Jesus cast out addictions so they could drown themselves in the sea? You are engaging in apologetics which is completely divorced from scripture.

Many abstract things are personified that way in writing. here is a good examples:

Revelation 9:6 "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

Revelation 6:8 "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

Revelations was written by someone on an acid trip. What does the above have to do with anything?

1 Corinthians 15:55 "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

It is the same way with that word demon. It is most often but a personified abstract.

No. They are just examples of ecphonesis. Lol.

Demons were exorcised and cast into a pig herd. The pig herd drowned. The townspeople were extremely irate. The meaning of the text is plain. These people believed in demons possessing humans. No apologetics can explain it away.
celestialtorahteacher
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4/19/2015 6:07:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 10:22:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/18/2015 10:07:13 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Very stupid atheists attacking fictional Bible characters as if they were real persons and not the creations of priests and scribes of Judah. Now that is pathetic. Let us know when you go back to school and learn to tell the difference between religious propaganda stories and reality.

Saul/Paul was fictitious? I might agree with you but could you elaborate. I mean, somebody wrote those epistes, right?

First off, there were at least three "Pauls". Have you ever seen a comparison of the biography of Apollonius of Tyre with Paul's missions? Personally, I think Church Fathers or one or two of them wrote the Pauline Epistles, and wrote them before others wrote the Gospels as Paul seems totally unaware of Jesus' earthly existence and no mention of Jesus' teachings. Paul uses Jesus as a Get Out of Hell magic card that all you have to do is believe in Paul's irrational idea that Jesus died for our sins and we are thus made sinless which is crazy talk. And morally reprehensible as it is the same thing as if you were a member of a fraternity gang that accidentally went too far with say initiation torture and killed a student and one innocent member of the group volunteers to take the rap for everyone else's crime. Such people are moral cowards who would allow an innocent man to take their punishment and yet this is exactly what Pauline Christianity is based upon-running away from moral responsibility. Paul has the same pattern in his idea of "grace" covering such sins as if such moral cowardice were OK when God's representative takes the fall. Why? Why is that OK when if anyone we know does the same thing as Children of God we rightly think them moral cretins?

Yes, the WRITERS of the Bible stories may well have been touched in the head as those without spiritual experience often think but no one need listen to people who give us their opinions about things they have zero experiential knowledge of. They are quacks, atheist quacks quacking away about God and religion which they know only from hearsay of others. No personal experience with spirituality equals no authority to tell anyone about spiritual things. Atheism rests on pure ego display as Einstein also complained about atheists. Only agnosticism is legitimate philosophy as it follows the Scientific Method but not atheism. It's an ego trip of people wanting attention without doing the work necessary to deserve it.
celestialtorahteacher
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4/19/2015 6:18:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Sorry, atheists, but you're not dealing with a Bible thumping Christian here as those are the Christians you atheists love to bait and harass from religious forum to religious forum. With me you are facing Gnostic Christianity, a whole other ballgame intellectually and I can wipe the floor with atheist pathetic mantras any day of the week. It's too easy. Atheism is patently an ego trip as it is as irrational a philosophy of inquiry as fundamentalist religions are irrationally held belief systems. Logic is against you as atheists all forget whatever their opinions are, they are still stuck on the arrow of time and as everyone can see, knowledge of things doesn't stay still at the atheist's time and moves on to discover more and more amazing phenomena, much of it previously considered unknowable because of no way for direct observation. In short, what you know now may well be backward ignorance by the year 2500.
JJ50
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4/19/2015 6:25:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 6:18:21 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Sorry, atheists, but you're not dealing with a Bible thumping Christian here as those are the Christians you atheists love to bait and harass from religious forum to religious forum. With me you are facing Gnostic Christianity, a whole other ballgame intellectually and I can wipe the floor with atheist pathetic mantras any day of the week. It's too easy. Atheism is patently an ego trip as it is as irrational a philosophy of inquiry as fundamentalist religions are irrationally held belief systems. Logic is against you as atheists all forget whatever their opinions are, they are still stuck on the arrow of time and as everyone can see, knowledge of things doesn't stay still at the atheist's time and moves on to discover more and more amazing phenomena, much of it previously considered unknowable because of no way for direct observation. In short, what you know now may well be backward ignorance by the year 2500.

Keep telling yourself that and you might one day believe it to be true, LOL!
celestialtorahteacher
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4/19/2015 6:32:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
And really, such lazy people are you atheists! Why do you not try to figure out how spiritual contact happens and even look for spiritual contact PHYSICAL events accompanying spiritual contact? Do you even know that when the Spirit enters your mind It sends an electric charge all through your body, a charge quite similar but more intense than that electric zing that happens when you hear really good music. That is physical and that's what you always want from spiritually conscious people--something tangible, physical and yet I never hear atheists exploring this, never asking why Quakers and Shakers got their names, never asking me what happened when God put the Vision of Christ Josephine into my mind and the shock was so great I fell to my knees. Proof of spiritual contact is there in the physical manifestations and of course, the Vision itself clearly shows the Spirit in contact with a human being. Now my Vision has become part of the powerful Native American prophesy of the Return of White Buffalo Calf Woman with a Northern Cheyenne Keeper of the Josephine Bundle, like the other two WBCW sacred Pipe Bundles with their Keepers. That is proof of spiritual power affecting more than me. I've already told you about the Nazarean Christians, over 500 of them honoring my Sword of Peace vision at Easter in Nazareth, Israel. This is the real deal and you need to pay more attention to the real spiritual people of God and forgo talking with passe Pauline Christians who don't know their religion is in its End Times along with all Abrahamic religions.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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4/19/2015 6:39:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 6:25:25 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 4/19/2015 6:18:21 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Sorry, atheists, but you're not dealing with a Bible thumping Christian here as those are the Christians you atheists love to bait and harass from religious forum to religious forum. With me you are facing Gnostic Christianity, a whole other ballgame intellectually and I can wipe the floor with atheist pathetic mantras any day of the week. It's too easy. Atheism is patently an ego trip as it is as irrational a philosophy of inquiry as fundamentalist religions are irrationally held belief systems. Logic is against you as atheists all forget whatever their opinions are, they are still stuck on the arrow of time and as everyone can see, knowledge of things doesn't stay still at the atheist's time and moves on to discover more and more amazing phenomena, much of it previously considered unknowable because of no way for direct observation. In short, what you know now may well be backward ignorance by the year 2500.

Keep telling yourself that and you might one day believe it to be true, LOL!

I'm telly you that, that you atheists need to go back to school and do your logical homework this time. Logic: In 200 years human beings have gone from horse and buggies, wood and coal fires to intergalactic spaceships and having the power of a sun within a human grasp. 200 years and you think you know everything there is to know about spirituality right now. That is just plain dumb as well as illogical. The future lies ahead as the profound Ronald wisely concluded before dementia set in.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,007
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4/19/2015 6:43:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 11:45:14 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
You did not support your statement that the bible does not have a concept of mental illness.

you showed diagnosis of biblical figures. Diagnoses based on a few sentences.

All under the assumption that what ever they saw that isn't seen by the majority of people today is a hallucination.

Your suggesting that because the bible did not refer to these people as crazy, which you deem is the likely truth, then the bible does not have a concept of mental illness.

Is that an accurate summary of your argument? I don't want to be blamed for straw manning.'

if it is I will then express why I think it is a non -sequitur.

The scriptures do not mention mental illness or remedies pertaining to mental illness as a physiological condition. Modern clergy are also in denial that mental illness can exist outside the scriptural beliefs of sin, satan and deterioration of the relationship with God. In both instances prayer is the recommended solution to restore the spiritual health which is believed to be the primary cause of all illnesses.

A biblical response to the OP would look something like this:
http://bcinstitute.com...
dee-em
Posts: 6,473
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4/19/2015 6:56:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 6:07:03 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
At 4/18/2015 10:22:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/18/2015 10:07:13 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Very stupid atheists attacking fictional Bible characters as if they were real persons and not the creations of priests and scribes of Judah. Now that is pathetic. Let us know when you go back to school and learn to tell the difference between religious propaganda stories and reality.

Saul/Paul was fictitious? I might agree with you but could you elaborate. I mean, somebody wrote those epistes, right?

First off, there were at least three "Pauls".

I don't know about three Pauls, but about half of the "Pauline" epistles are written by other later authors.

Have you ever seen a comparison of the biography of Apollonius of Tyre with Paul's missions?

Yes. The stories of this Paul trekking all over the Roman Empire are patently ridiculous even on a surface examination.

Personally, I think Church Fathers or one or two of them wrote the Pauline Epistles, and wrote them before others wrote the Gospels as Paul seems totally unaware of Jesus' earthly existence and no mention of Jesus' teachings.

Agreed.

Paul uses Jesus as a Get Out of Hell magic card that all you have to do is believe in Paul's irrational idea that Jesus died for our sins and we are thus made sinless which is crazy talk. And morally reprehensible as it is the same thing as if you were a member of a fraternity gang that accidentally went too far with say initiation torture and killed a student and one innocent member of the group volunteers to take the rap for everyone else's crime. Such people are moral cowards who would allow an innocent man to take their punishment and yet this is exactly what Pauline Christianity is based upon-running away from moral responsibility. Paul has the same pattern in his idea of "grace" covering such sins as if such moral cowardice were OK when God's representative takes the fall. Why? Why is that OK when if anyone we know does the same thing as Children of God we rightly think them moral cretins?

Yes, the WRITERS of the Bible stories may well have been touched in the head as those without spiritual experience often think but no one need listen to people who give us their opinions about things they have zero experiential knowledge of. They are quacks, atheist quacks quacking away about God and religion which they know only from hearsay of others.

Well, to be fair, a lot of it was a reworking of Jewish scripture with some borrowing from Greek philosophy. It didn't come out of thin air.

No personal experience with spirituality equals no authority to tell anyone about spiritual things. Atheism rests on pure ego display as Einstein also complained about atheists. Only agnosticism is legitimate philosophy as it follows the Scientific Method but not atheism. It's an ego trip of people wanting attention without doing the work necessary to deserve it.

No, it's simply about lack of evidence to cause one to form beliefs. It's very uncomplicated. Atheists don't want attention. We have no tenets. We preach no dogma. We have no organization. We just ask for some evidence when theists make claims. You can hardly blame us.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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4/19/2015 7:03:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 6:07:03 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
At 4/18/2015 10:22:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/18/2015 10:07:13 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Very stupid atheists attacking fictional Bible characters as if they were real persons and not the creations of priests and scribes of Judah. Now that is pathetic. Let us know when you go back to school and learn to tell the difference between religious propaganda stories and reality.

Saul/Paul was fictitious? I might agree with you but could you elaborate. I mean, somebody wrote those epistes, right?

First off, there were at least three "Pauls". Have you ever seen a comparison of the biography of Apollonius of Tyre with Paul's missions? Personally, I think Church Fathers or one or two of them wrote the Pauline Epistles, and wrote them before others wrote the Gospels as Paul seems totally unaware of Jesus' earthly existence and no mention of Jesus' teachings. Paul uses Jesus as a Get Out of Hell magic card that all you have to do is believe in Paul's irrational idea that Jesus died for our sins and we are thus made sinless which is crazy talk. And morally reprehensible as it is the same thing as if you were a member of a fraternity gang that accidentally went too far with say initiation torture and killed a student and one innocent member of the group volunteers to take the rap for everyone else's crime. Such people are moral cowards who would allow an innocent man to take their punishment and yet this is exactly what Pauline Christianity is based upon-running away from moral responsibility. Paul has the same pattern in his idea of "grace" covering such sins as if such moral cowardice were OK when God's representative takes the fall. Why? Why is that OK when if anyone we know does the same thing as Children of God we rightly think them moral cretins?

I understand you have animosity towards the writings of Paul but I keep wondering where the animosity is coming from, because your premises for doing so are faulty, here are some examples......
Paul doesn't teach we should run away from morals, having an understanding of the sacrifice does not permit one to run from morals, I mean I can't even begin imagine how you crossed that bridge. Not only is it wrong but I can tell you of a certainty it has no such effect but the opposite it gives a person freedom, not in the sense that they now can avoid morals but in the sense they can move forward in confidence because many people come to God in a hurting state, many people have tons of baggage and horrible things they've done and they have great shame as they should. By Jesus extending grace in this area the person gets to "let go" of that baggage and when one lets go of the baggage one is like a new person, one who is grateful and humbled.
I know not a single Christian who would agree with what you just said about morals. We are not made "sinless", we are made clean there is a difference, it just expresses the forgiving quality of God. Remember when Paul was talking about the sacrifice? He said does that mean we should continue in sin, God forbid! Of course not and I don't know of anyone who would think that way, I'd like to see where you get this.
Jesus raised the bar with morality for believers in my opinion, not only are we responsible for our actions we are responsible for our thoughts, so tell me where the moral cowardice is sir? Show me in scripture where it supports the idea people should not be responsible for their morals?

Show me the evidence that the "Church Fathers" wrote the epistles of Paul?
I'm not being a jerk here I'm genuinely curious because I'm not seeing this in scripture or in reality.


Yes, the WRITERS of the Bible stories may well have been touched in the head as those without spiritual experience often think but no one need listen to people who give us their opinions about things they have zero experiential knowledge of. They are quacks, atheist quacks quacking away about God and religion which they know only from hearsay of others. No personal experience with spirituality equals no authority to tell anyone about spiritual things. Atheism rests on pure ego display as Einstein also complained about atheists. Only agnosticism is legitimate philosophy as it follows the Scientific Method but not atheism. It's an ego trip of people wanting attention without doing the work necessary to deserve it.

Lol okay now this makes more sense, but I'd like to know how we now can begin to conclude mental illness for people we've never met. When we start assuming things we also start arriving at false conclusions which then spreads in all directions.
dee-em
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4/19/2015 7:03:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 6:18:21 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Sorry, atheists, but you're not dealing with a Bible thumping Christian here as those are the Christians you atheists love to bait and harass from religious forum to religious forum. With me you are facing Gnostic Christianity, a whole other ballgame intellectually and I can wipe the floor with atheist pathetic mantras any day of the week.

Sure you can. Lol.

It's too easy. Atheism is patently an ego trip as it is as irrational a philosophy of inquiry as fundamentalist religions are irrationally held belief systems.

Except you can't seem to explain how atheism is irrational. Skepticism in the absence of evidence is eminently rational.

Logic is against you as atheists all forget whatever their opinions are, they are still stuck on the arrow of time and as everyone can see, knowledge of things doesn't stay still at the atheist's time and moves on to discover more and more amazing phenomena, much of it previously considered unknowable because of no way for direct observation. In short, what you know now may well be backward ignorance by the year 2500.

And here you are confusing atheism with science. So much for your vast intellect. Contrary to your assertions atheism doesn't change with time. It was a lack of belief in gods a thousand years ago and it's still a lack of belief in gods. And so it will be in another thousand years. Make it a million. Lol.
dee-em
Posts: 6,473
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4/19/2015 7:15:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 6:32:02 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
And really, such lazy people are you atheists! Why do you not try to figure out how spiritual contact happens and even look for spiritual contact PHYSICAL events accompanying spiritual contact? Do you even know that when the Spirit enters your mind It sends an electric charge all through your body, a charge quite similar but more intense than that electric zing that happens when you hear really good music. That is physical and that's what you always want from spiritually conscious people--something tangible, physical and yet I never hear atheists exploring this, never asking why Quakers and Shakers got their names, never asking me what happened when God put the Vision of Christ Josephine into my mind and the shock was so great I fell to my knees. Proof of spiritual contact is there in the physical manifestations and of course, the Vision itself clearly shows the Spirit in contact with a human being. Now my Vision has become part of the powerful Native American prophesy of the Return of White Buffalo Calf Woman with a Northern Cheyenne Keeper of the Josephine Bundle, like the other two WBCW sacred Pipe Bundles with their Keepers. That is proof of spiritual power affecting more than me. I've already told you about the Nazarean Christians, over 500 of them honoring my Sword of Peace vision at Easter in Nazareth, Israel. This is the real deal and you need to pay more attention to the real spiritual people of God and forgo talking with passe Pauline Christians who don't know their religion is in its End Times along with all Abrahamic religions.

Yes, I remember now. You foolishly claimed that this epiphany of yours gave you divine knowledge about the link between birds and dinosaurs and you were the first person on Earth to discover this link. When I proved you wrong, you disappeared from the thread. Lol.

Everything you claim to have experienced above is a product of your own brain. You have externalized it, but that doesn't make it true. Deluded zealots have been doing this since the very birth of religion. You're just another BoG but with (slightly) less delusions of grandeur.
dee-em
Posts: 6,473
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4/19/2015 9:42:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 7:03:00 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:

Show me the evidence that the "Church Fathers" wrote the epistles of Paul?
I'm not being a jerk here I'm genuinely curious because I'm not seeing this in scripture or in reality.

You're not looking very hard. Firstly, do you accept that half of the "Pauline" epistles are not genuine as do most scholars today? If yes, then you agree that church fathers were authoring bogus material in the name of Paul (if he was even historical). Is it then such a stretch to entertain the idea that they are all bogus and that there was no actual Paul as described in the NT? I could go into detail about the contradictions and more absurd elements of the accounts of his journeys, but I'll put those to one side for now.

Secondly, there is not a single mention or hint of a pioneering apostle named Paul in the four gospels. Think about that. Not only is he unknown to any historian but even within the four most important documents for most Christians, not a word. Here you have the guy who almost single-handedly bootstrapped Christian doctrine and went around shoring up problems in one congregation after another and yet he is unknown to the gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. How can that be?

Not even the book of Acts --- written, it is alleged, by Luke, Paul's supposed long-time travelling companion and with him even in the condemned cell --- makes any reference to, or even hints at the existence of the Pauline epistles, the defining work for Christian theology and which makes up one third of the entire New Testament! The silence is deafening from the supposed "biographer" of the foremost apostle.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/19/2015 12:03:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 6:43:40 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/18/2015 11:45:14 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
You did not support your statement that the bible does not have a concept of mental illness.

you showed diagnosis of biblical figures. Diagnoses based on a few sentences.

All under the assumption that what ever they saw that isn't seen by the majority of people today is a hallucination.

Your suggesting that because the bible did not refer to these people as crazy, which you deem is the likely truth, then the bible does not have a concept of mental illness.

Is that an accurate summary of your argument? I don't want to be blamed for straw manning.'

if it is I will then express why I think it is a non -sequitur.

The scriptures do not mention mental illness or remedies pertaining to mental illness as a physiological condition. Modern clergy are also in denial that mental illness can exist outside the scriptural beliefs of sin, satan and deterioration of the relationship with God. In both instances prayer is the recommended solution to restore the spiritual health which is believed to be the primary cause of all illnesses.

A biblical response to the OP would look something like this:
http://bcinstitute.com...

And the word science doesn't appear in any of newton's work.

As Someone explained "spirit" is more synonymous with mental.

One reason why the people in the bible didn't prescribe Valium for mental disorder is because they didn't have Dupont back then.

You are suggesting that mental illness is not caused by a poor relationship between man and god?

Can you show me one person with a relationship with god who is also mentally ill?
Harikrish
Posts: 11,007
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4/19/2015 4:19:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 12:03:29 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/19/2015 6:43:40 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/18/2015 11:45:14 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
You did not support your statement that the bible does not have a concept of mental illness.

you showed diagnosis of biblical figures. Diagnoses based on a few sentences.

All under the assumption that what ever they saw that isn't seen by the majority of people today is a hallucination.

Your suggesting that because the bible did not refer to these people as crazy, which you deem is the likely truth, then the bible does not have a concept of mental illness.

Is that an accurate summary of your argument? I don't want to be blamed for straw manning.'

if it is I will then express why I think it is a non -sequitur.

The scriptures do not mention mental illness or remedies pertaining to mental illness as a physiological condition. Modern clergy are also in denial that mental illness can exist outside the scriptural beliefs of sin, satan and deterioration of the relationship with God. In both instances prayer is the recommended solution to restore the spiritual health which is believed to be the primary cause of all illnesses.

A biblical response to the OP would look something like this:
http://bcinstitute.com...

And the word science doesn't appear in any of newton's work.

People familiar with Newton's work look for the word gravity/gravitation.

As Someone explained "spirit" is more synonymous with mental.
Spirit and body/mind are it synonymous in the bible. The theory of mind does not exist in the bible either.

A third of Americans " and nearly half of evangelical, fundamentalist, or born-again Christians " believe prayer and Bible study alone can overcome serious mental illness. The survey also found most Americans (68 percent) would feel welcome in church if they were mentally ill.

Thirty-five percent agree with the statement, "With just Bible study and prayer, ALONE, people with serious mental illness like depression, bipolar disorder, and schizophrenia could overcome mental illness."

Fifty percent of those 18-29 years old say prayer and Bible study could overcome mental illness. That number falls to less than 30 percent for those 55-64.

Evangelical, fundamentalist, or born-again Christians (48 percent) agree prayer and Scripture study alone can overcome mental illness. Only 27 percent of other Americans agree.


One reason why the people in the bible didn't prescribe Valium for mental disorder is because they didn't have Dupont back then.

They didn't recognize mental illness as a physiological condition either and therefore didn't know what to treat and stuck with prayer as a fix all solution.

You are suggesting that mental illness is not caused by a poor relationship between man and god?

It is quite the opposite. The more one is possessed by God the more likely they suffer from mental illness.

Kathleen Taylor, Neuroscientist, Says Religious Fundamentalism Could Be Treated As A Mental Illness

Quote:
An Oxford University researcher and author specializing in neuroscience has suggested that one day religious fundamentalism may be treated as a curable mental illness.

Can you show me one person with a relationship with god who is also mentally ill?
Jim jones, David Koresh, tons of pedophiles in the priesthood. 80% of convicts in the federal prisons are Christians.

Federal prison survey finds atheists make up less than 1% (0.079) of the prison population when grouped by religious affiliations. Christians make up a whooping 80% suggesting Christisbs are prone to criminality.

http://www.holysmoke.org...
Harikrish
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4/20/2015 5:30:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
How to differentiate Demonic Possession from Schizophrenia

by Pastor Steven Waterhouse

1. Attraction to vs. Aversion to Religion. Demons want nothing to do with Christ. Conversely, people with NBD are often devoutly religious.

2. Irrational Speech vs. Rational Speech. In New Testament accounts involving demons, the demons spoke in a rational manner. Untreated people with schizophrenia will often speak in nonsense and jump rapidly between unrelated topics.

3. Ordinary Learning vs. Supernatural Knowledge Demons in the New Testament would speak through people to convey knowledge that otherwise could not have been known to the possessed individuals. Those with NBD have no such ability to know facts which they have not acquired by normal learning.

4. Normal vs. Occultic Phenomena. There is an aspect to demon activity that is just plain spooky (ex.: poltergeists, levitation's, trances, telepathy). These have an impact on others in the room not just the possessed. With schizophrenia, the effect of the disorder is only on the disordered, not others.

5. The claim to be possessed Authors who have clinical experience both with demon possession and mental illness, believe those who claim to be possessed are very likely not possessed. Demons wish to be secretive and do not voluntarily claim to be present.

6. Effects of Therapy. If prayer solves the problem, then it was probably not schizophrenia. If medicine helps alleviate the problem, it was not demon possession.
Rosco_P_Coletrain
Posts: 143
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4/20/2015 10:45:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/19/2015 5:37:39 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/19/2015 2:04:28 AM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/18/2015 10:01:16 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/18/2015 7:27:50 PM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/18/2015 11:16:47 AM, Fly wrote:
I think that what we call mental illness or even epilepsy today, the writers of the Bible deemed it all as demonic possession.

Your comment made me think to look up what the word demon means. I cannot find the word even used in the KJV cross references.

The KJV has them as devils but here is Matthew 8 in a modern translation:

Jesus Restores Two Demon-Possessed Men
28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,[c] two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."

32 He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.


Jesus wasn't too popular with the townspeople!

So the I found that what is said is that it is the word "spirit" or "spirits" that the bible uses when speaking about people being possessed and I realized that a spirit does not have to be a person but is also used to denote attitudes within a person that cause them to act rashly.

But that is not all that word spirit can indicate because it only means that something we cannot directly see is showing it's presence by the blindness or deafness or the rashness and whatever else that might be happening to a person that produces it's results visibly to us by it's work in them.

For example, the demon possessed man from who his demons cried out as shown by these spirits speaking to Jesus could well have been just the man himself speaking from an ill spirit which could be his own ill emotions caused of whatever defect.

So I think there needs to be more thought put into the matter before we conclude that the Bible is just speaking in ignorance.

See above. It refutes your apologetics completely.

That makes me wonder why my cross reference would not pull it up but with that verse given above I was able to do a look-up on that word, "demon" and found out it is but an ill spirit, too.

I told you exactly why. The KJV uses the word "devils" instead of "demons".

A person's demons do not have to be a spirit being inhabiting them at all. It turns out that whether it calls them a demon or a spirit it is saying pretty much the same thing as I said.

Did you even read the verses? The demons spoke to Jesus and asked to be cast out into the pig herd rather than being tortured. He obliged. In the context of the text, your interpretation makes absolutely no sense.

Your demons are the things that addict you and thru that addiction control you.

*sigh* Do you really think Jesus cast out addictions so they could drown themselves in the sea? You are engaging in apologetics which is completely divorced from scripture.

Many abstract things are personified that way in writing. here is a good examples:

Revelation 9:6 "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

Revelation 6:8 "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

Revelations was written by someone on an acid trip. What does the above have to do with anything?

1 Corinthians 15:55 "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

It is the same way with that word demon. It is most often but a personified abstract.

No. They are just examples of ecphonesis. Lol.

Demons were exorcised and cast into a pig herd. The pig herd drowned. The townspeople were extremely irate. The meaning of the text is plain. These people believed in demons possessing humans. No apologetics can explain it away.

You may be right.

I doubt every case is the same nor do I think that the Bible claims they are.