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The Power of Thought

nonentity
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7/31/2010 10:29:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm curious to know what people think about thoughts. Like Dan Brown's The Lost Symbol or The Secret, do you believe that thoughts can have the power to affect the physical world?

To quickly summarize one of the ideas behind The Lost Symbol: a grain of sand has a tiny mass, not enough to do anything on its own, but mass nonetheless. If all those grains of sand were to collect and become the moon, its mass has the power to move oceans. If a thought has mass, then the implication would be that, like millions of grains of sand, millions of thoughts collected as one would have that same power.

The idea behind The Secret is the law of attraction. For more info, Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org...

I have my own convoluted views on the power of thought, for personal and professional reasons. However, I am interested in knowing the opinions of others and whether anyone else believes thoughts can produce physical change? Please do not only give your opinion, but give reasons to support your opinion.

Sidenote: I was not sure which forum to place this under, so I chose Religion because prayer is a great example of this idea.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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7/31/2010 11:05:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Why should I believe that my thoughts directly effect the world around me when I cannot even verify that the world around me exists?
Furthermore, even upon the assumption that is does, I have seen no scientific evidence to imply I have this ability.
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tvellalott
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7/31/2010 11:55:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It's fascinating to think about it. Don't think too hard though, you might make the clock fall off the wall. ^_-
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GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/1/2010 12:34:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/31/2010 10:29:12 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
because prayer is a great example of this idea.

No it's not. Prayer is the attempt to communicate with God who then answers the prayers.

This idea that you talk about is based on reality. Thoughts are electrical impulses and send off brain waves. These things are empirically testable, prayer is not and has nothing to do with what you speak of.
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innomen
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8/1/2010 2:49:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/1/2010 12:34:16 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/31/2010 10:29:12 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
because prayer is a great example of this idea.

No it's not. Prayer is the attempt to communicate with God who then answers the prayers.

For the simple minded maybe, but you know better than that Geo.

This idea that you talk about is based on reality. Thoughts are electrical impulses and send off brain waves. These things are empirically testable, prayer is not and has nothing to do with what you speak of.
I'm not even sure about this, but it would be kind of interesting to see if evolution can enable such an ability, and further it.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/1/2010 2:59:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/1/2010 2:49:50 AM, innomen wrote:
At 8/1/2010 12:34:16 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No it's not. Prayer is the attempt to communicate with God who then answers the prayers.

For the simple minded maybe, but you know better than that Geo.

Ok, then explain what prayer is to you as an advanced mind.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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8/1/2010 3:26:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/31/2010 10:29:12 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:

If a thought has mass, then the implication would be that, like millions of grains of sand, millions of thoughts collected as one would have that same power.


well, this can't be generalized. The type of thoughts, their orientation must be considered. Its like, 100s of thought not converted to action is just lost energy, dissipated energy. 1 thought converted to action may force others to think along the same line, it may become a revolution, or a suppressed revolution, both ways affecting the people, and thus would be powerful.
so, i think action, not thought has 'mass'.
Rusty
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8/1/2010 10:26:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/1/2010 7:18:14 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
The "Power" of prayer has been shown to be entirely a placebo effect.

How on Earth would you go about showing that prayer is just a placebo effect?
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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8/1/2010 10:44:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/31/2010 11:05:24 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Why should I believe that my thoughts directly effect the world around me when I cannot even verify that the world around me exists?

your as bad as the Bandikar; Freedo its not counted against your reasoning if you just accept the obvious truth that the world exist without empirical proof as a fact. The only justification for rejecting what your common sense tells you about existence is contrary proof. The assumption is so incredibly safe to make that it not existing is not even worth considering when thinking about other things (like discussion on this thread)

Furthermore, even upon the assumption that is does, I have seen no scientific evidence to imply I have this ability.

of course you haven't, the theory has just been proposed! I bet Plato saw no scientific expedience to suggest the possibility of communicating by radio waves.

the question is not yet up to lack of scientific observations to prove it, not until the experiments begin provide data for the 'science' in this matter. for now it would just have to do to consider if the theory is inherently wrong with already known data. for example if it were known science that some things truly have no mass, and therefor its reasonable that thoughts may not have mass. I don't actually know the status quo on that but that would be an example.

I think though that even granted that even a thought has a trivial amount of mass, the theory breaks down when you try to fathom 'accumulating them'. whatever particle of mass your crediting as being your thought, it simply is what it is, how can you be self conscience of it enough to make the particle itself go somewhere to collect with others and 'do something'? This would need to be looked into in those 'test'. search for paralleled movements of the thought particle with a corresponding action you will. what you would really want to observe though is that if two individuals think about the same thing (like a jar of peanut butter) then their thought particles about it go to the same spot on their own, then you could propose to accumulate them. but before doing any of that the microscope got to mad that can even identify those particles, and for now it does not.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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8/1/2010 10:49:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/31/2010 10:29:12 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:

Sidenote: I was not sure which forum to place this under, so I chose Religion because prayer is a great example of this idea.

prayer is not the same as what your suggesting. it doesn't take a mass of thoughts to do anything in the concept of prayer for prayer is a petition to the one self existent thing that created everything. one prayer could be all that convinces God, or many, but it is not reliant on the presence of many thoughts/prayers put to gather to make enough mass for he task.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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8/1/2010 10:55:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/1/2010 3:26:07 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 7/31/2010 10:29:12 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:

If a thought has mass, then the implication would be that, like millions of grains of sand, millions of thoughts collected as one would have that same power.


well, this can't be generalized. The type of thoughts, their orientation must be considered. Its like, 100s of thought not converted to action is just lost energy, dissipated energy. 1 thought converted to action may force others to think along the same line, it may become a revolution, or a suppressed revolution, both ways affecting the people, and thus would be powerful.
so, i think action, not thought has 'mass'.

AMEN.

Only the thought that results in us doing something has power.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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8/1/2010 11:56:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/1/2010 10:26:49 AM, Denote wrote:
At 8/1/2010 7:18:14 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
The "Power" of prayer has been shown to be entirely a placebo effect.


How on Earth would you go about showing that prayer is just a placebo effect?

There was a study done that showed people who knew they were being prayed for experienced change, while those who did not know they were being prayed for did not.
nonentity
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8/1/2010 11:57:42 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/1/2010 10:49:31 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 7/31/2010 10:29:12 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:

Sidenote: I was not sure which forum to place this under, so I chose Religion because prayer is a great example of this idea.

prayer is not the same as what your suggesting. it doesn't take a mass of thoughts to do anything in the concept of prayer for prayer is a petition to the one self existent thing that created everything. one prayer could be all that convinces God, or many, but it is not reliant on the presence of many thoughts/prayers put to gather to make enough mass for he task.

Then why do people pray together?
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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8/1/2010 12:48:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/1/2010 11:57:42 AM, TulleKrazy wrote:
At 8/1/2010 10:49:31 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 7/31/2010 10:29:12 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:

Sidenote: I was not sure which forum to place this under, so I chose Religion because prayer is a great example of this idea.

prayer is not the same as what your suggesting. it doesn't take a mass of thoughts to do anything in the concept of prayer for prayer is a petition to the one self existent thing that created everything. one prayer could be all that convinces God, or many, but it is not reliant on the presence of many thoughts/prayers put to gather to make enough mass for he task.

Then why do people pray together?

to petition for community things as a community. it has nothing to do with 'whats the most ergonomic effective way to pray'

as an individual its appropriate for me to pray to get a job. but my employment status really not need be a concern of the community.

as collective whole you find its more appropriate to pray for less specific things that would concern the whole community rather than one person; heal people with cancer, that nation no longer lift sword against nation, for the people starting school for the semester, for the local boy scout troop as they go on a long trip.... ect.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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8/1/2010 3:19:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/1/2010 11:56:37 AM, TulleKrazy wrote:
At 8/1/2010 10:26:49 AM, Denote wrote:
At 8/1/2010 7:18:14 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
The "Power" of prayer has been shown to be entirely a placebo effect.


How on Earth would you go about showing that prayer is just a placebo effect?

There was a study done that showed people who knew they were being prayed for experienced change, while those who did not know they were being prayed for did not.

Doesn't the conclusion that the power of prayer is purely placebo, given the data from that study, rest on the assumption that God doesn't actually exist?

If God exists, then he's more than capable of not granting those requests.
(Also, check out the standardized, repetitive format of those prayers and Matthew 6:7)

In that case, the only thing shown here would be that having your own personal prayer team summoned might make you begin to second-guess your health situation and cause additional stress.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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8/1/2010 4:26:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/1/2010 3:19:54 PM, Denote wrote:
At 8/1/2010 11:56:37 AM, TulleKrazy wrote:
At 8/1/2010 10:26:49 AM, Denote wrote:
At 8/1/2010 7:18:14 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
The "Power" of prayer has been shown to be entirely a placebo effect.


How on Earth would you go about showing that prayer is just a placebo effect?

There was a study done that showed people who knew they were being prayed for experienced change, while those who did not know they were being prayed for did not.

Doesn't the conclusion that the power of prayer is purely placebo, given the data from that study, rest on the assumption that God doesn't actually exist?

If God exists, then he's more than capable of not granting those requests.
(Also, check out the standardized, repetitive format of those prayers and Matthew 6:7)

In that case, the only thing shown here would be that having your own personal prayer team summoned might make you begin to second-guess your health situation and cause additional stress.

A double-blind study... four groups

1) Not being prayed for.
2) Being prayed for, but don't know it.
3) Being prayed for, but DO know it.
4) Not being prayed for, but were told they were.

The individuals that know they are being prayed for show improvement, but they show the exact same improvement as the people that were NOT prayed for, but were told that they were.

In short - if you know (or just believe) that you are being prayed for, you will get better. It is entirely a placebo effect. The people that were being prayed for but did not know about it showed no improvement.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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8/1/2010 7:57:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/1/2010 4:26:39 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 8/1/2010 3:19:54 PM, Denote wrote:
At 8/1/2010 11:56:37 AM, TulleKrazy wrote:
At 8/1/2010 10:26:49 AM, Denote wrote:
At 8/1/2010 7:18:14 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
The "Power" of prayer has been shown to be entirely a placebo effect.


How on Earth would you go about showing that prayer is just a placebo effect?

There was a study done that showed people who knew they were being prayed for experienced change, while those who did not know they were being prayed for did not.

Doesn't the conclusion that the power of prayer is purely placebo, given the data from that study, rest on the assumption that God doesn't actually exist?

If God exists, then he's more than capable of not granting those requests.
(Also, check out the standardized, repetitive format of those prayers and Matthew 6:7)

In that case, the only thing shown here would be that having your own personal prayer team summoned might make you begin to second-guess your health situation and cause additional stress.

A double-blind study... four groups

1) Not being prayed for.
2) Being prayed for, but don't know it.
3) Being prayed for, but DO know it.
4) Not being prayed for, but were told they were.

The individuals that know they are being prayed for show improvement, but they show the exact same improvement as the people that were NOT prayed for, but were told that they were.

In short - if you know (or just believe) that you are being prayed for, you will get better. It is entirely a placebo effect. The people that were being prayed for but did not know about it showed no improvement.

Are you referring to this study?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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8/1/2010 10:10:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/1/2010 7:57:11 PM, Denote wrote:

Are you referring to this study?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

I don't think that's it - I really don't remember which specific one it was. I read about it in a while ago... like a couple years.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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8/1/2010 11:09:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/1/2010 10:10:08 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 8/1/2010 7:57:11 PM, Denote wrote:

Are you referring to this study?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

I don't think that's it - I really don't remember which specific one it was. I read about it in a while ago... like a couple years.

Ah, okay. I was just curious because it seems that the study above produced a slightly different set of results. Wasn't sure which one you were speaking of. Anyhow.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/2/2010 3:10:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/31/2010 10:29:12 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
I'm curious to know what people think about thoughts. Like Dan Brown's The Lost Symbol or The Secret, do you believe that thoughts can have the power to affect the physical world?

To quickly summarize one of the ideas behind The Lost Symbol: a grain of sand has a tiny mass, not enough to do anything on its own, but mass nonetheless. If all those grains of sand were to collect and become the moon, its mass has the power to move oceans. If a thought has mass, then the implication would be that, like millions of grains of sand, millions of thoughts collected as one would have that same power.

The idea behind The Secret is the law of attraction. For more info, Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org...

I have my own convoluted views on the power of thought, for personal and professional reasons. However, I am interested in knowing the opinions of others and whether anyone else believes thoughts can produce physical change? Please do not only give your opinion, but give reasons to support your opinion.

Sidenote: I was not sure which forum to place this under, so I chose Religion because prayer is a great example of this idea.

The mind is the battleground; the Bible says 'take EVERY thought captive.' and 'take NO thought.' and Jesus asked the Pharisees why they 'entertained evil thoughts?'

No-one goes out and abducts a child or rapes a woman on a whim.. they have endlessly played out the fantasy (that began as a simple thought) in there own minds untils the fantasy itself no longer satisfies and must be acted upon.
The Cross.. the Cross.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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8/2/2010 7:02:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/1/2010 10:44:52 AM, Marauder wrote:
...thought particle...

LMFAO! It's a "thinkion" or may a "thoughton"? Yes! And you know what happens when a "thoughton" collides with its antiparticle the "antithoughton", right? It creates BS everywhere! What a mess!
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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8/2/2010 12:31:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/2/2010 7:02:51 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 8/1/2010 10:44:52 AM, Marauder wrote:
...thought particle...

LMFAO! It's a "thinkion" or may a "thoughton"? Yes! And you know what happens when a "thoughton" collides with its antiparticle the "antithoughton", right? It creates BS everywhere! What a mess!

LOL. I love this theory. now whenever people start speaking BS we can tell them their thoughton just hit an antithoughton. a clever way to tell them 'your full of it up to your brown eyes' without them actually knowing. but we will know.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/3/2010 3:27:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/2/2010 3:10:02 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/31/2010 10:29:12 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
I'm curious to know what people think about thoughts. Like Dan Brown's The Lost Symbol or The Secret, do you believe that thoughts can have the power to affect the physical world?

To quickly summarize one of the ideas behind The Lost Symbol: a grain of sand has a tiny mass, not enough to do anything on its own, but mass nonetheless. If all those grains of sand were to collect and become the moon, its mass has the power to move oceans. If a thought has mass, then the implication would be that, like millions of grains of sand, millions of thoughts collected as one would have that same power.

The idea behind The Secret is the law of attraction. For more info, Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org...

I have my own convoluted views on the power of thought, for personal and professional reasons. However, I am interested in knowing the opinions of others and whether anyone else believes thoughts can produce physical change? Please do not only give your opinion, but give reasons to support your opinion.

Sidenote: I was not sure which forum to place this under, so I chose Religion because prayer is a great example of this idea.

The mind is the battleground; the Bible says 'take EVERY thought captive.' and 'take NO thought.' and Jesus asked the Pharisees why they 'entertained evil thoughts?'

No-one goes out and abducts a child or rapes a woman on a whim.. they have endlessly played out the fantasy (that began as a simple thought) in there own minds untils the fantasy itself no longer satisfies and must be acted upon.

Luke 6:22
Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.
The Cross.. the Cross.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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8/3/2010 7:24:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/3/2010 3:27:41 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/2/2010 3:10:02 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/31/2010 10:29:12 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
I'm curious to know what people think about thoughts. Like Dan Brown's The Lost Symbol or The Secret, do you believe that thoughts can have the power to affect the physical world?

To quickly summarize one of the ideas behind The Lost Symbol: a grain of sand has a tiny mass, not enough to do anything on its own, but mass nonetheless. If all those grains of sand were to collect and become the moon, its mass has the power to move oceans. If a thought has mass, then the implication would be that, like millions of grains of sand, millions of thoughts collected as one would have that same power.

The idea behind The Secret is the law of attraction. For more info, Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org...

I have my own convoluted views on the power of thought, for personal and professional reasons. However, I am interested in knowing the opinions of others and whether anyone else believes thoughts can produce physical change? Please do not only give your opinion, but give reasons to support your opinion.

Sidenote: I was not sure which forum to place this under, so I chose Religion because prayer is a great example of this idea.

The mind is the battleground; the Bible says 'take EVERY thought captive.' and 'take NO thought.' and Jesus asked the Pharisees why they 'entertained evil thoughts?'

No-one goes out and abducts a child or rapes a woman on a whim.. they have endlessly played out the fantasy (that began as a simple thought) in there own minds untils the fantasy itself no longer satisfies and must be acted upon.

Luke 6:22
Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.


"Impressive. Most impressive! Obi-Wan has taught you well. You have controlled your fear. Now, release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me!"
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.