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Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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4/25/2015 2:03:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Time for a generic question, all" vsy",
What is the most compelling argument you've heard from your opposition?
I'm still a bit of a young-blood atheist and have not had much in the way of debate beyond semi-heated family arguments and I'm curious.

A quick request that everyone be civil and try not to preach, m"rke
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,237
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4/25/2015 2:14:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 2:03:04 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
Time for a generic question, all" vsy",
What is the most compelling argument you've heard from your opposition?
I'm still a bit of a young-blood atheist and have not had much in the way of debate beyond semi-heated family arguments and I'm curious.

A quick request that everyone be civil and try not to preach, m"rke

I think the best evidence for would be the sheer odds that something like life formed from matter and energy, as it appears as though right now, the rest of the universe is devoid of it.

I think the best evidence against would again be the sheer odds. That some pan-creator specifically tooled us into existence with the bizarre rules that our current list of religions have fit Him, and indeed, some how, the rules of whatever religion is correct actually are true.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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4/25/2015 2:19:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 2:14:21 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:03:04 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
Time for a generic question, all" vsy",
What is the most compelling argument you've heard from your opposition?
I'm still a bit of a young-blood atheist and have not had much in the way of debate beyond semi-heated family arguments and I'm curious.

A quick request that everyone be civil and try not to preach, m"rke

I think the best evidence for would be the sheer odds that something like life formed from matter and energy, as it appears as though right now, the rest of the universe is devoid of it.

I think the best evidence against would again be the sheer odds. That some pan-creator specifically tooled us into existence with the bizarre rules that our current list of religions have fit Him, and indeed, some how, the rules of whatever religion is correct actually are true.

Funny that the best we can muster puts us right back where we started. I've seen you about the religion forums, you seem very well spoken. Good a time as any to give you a thumbs up.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,237
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4/25/2015 2:29:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 2:19:26 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:14:21 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:03:04 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
Time for a generic question, all" vsy",
What is the most compelling argument you've heard from your opposition?
I'm still a bit of a young-blood atheist and have not had much in the way of debate beyond semi-heated family arguments and I'm curious.

A quick request that everyone be civil and try not to preach, m"rke

I think the best evidence for would be the sheer odds that something like life formed from matter and energy, as it appears as though right now, the rest of the universe is devoid of it.

I think the best evidence against would again be the sheer odds. That some pan-creator specifically tooled us into existence with the bizarre rules that our current list of religions have fit Him, and indeed, some how, the rules of whatever religion is correct actually are true.

Funny that the best we can muster puts us right back where we started. I've seen you about the religion forums, you seem very well spoken. Good a time as any to give you a thumbs up.

Thank ya, sir.

On the topic at hand: its not easy. Religion has its own special set of "Add ons" to reality vested in the supernatural. All of that can answer the question of our origin, but it leaves God alone for... wow, only God knows how long before creation took form. Purely naturalistic means makes one wonder where it all came from, or if our current existence is unique. Is this the honeymoon between the next Bang-to-Crunch cycle? Do those happen? Is the black of space simply the result of more ultramassive black holes, and is THAT the reason why we are accelerating outward... in essence just being drawn to a black hole that defies our understanding?

Assuming I am full of it, how does an infinite reward or punishment justify a few years of finite misconduct? If life as we know it is transitional to a spirit being with our creator in an afterlife, this stop along the way is awfully pointless.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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4/25/2015 2:34:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 2:29:19 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:19:26 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:14:21 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:03:04 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
Time for a generic question, all" vsy",
What is the most compelling argument you've heard from your opposition?
I'm still a bit of a young-blood atheist and have not had much in the way of debate beyond semi-heated family arguments and I'm curious.

A quick request that everyone be civil and try not to preach, m"rke

I think the best evidence for would be the sheer odds that something like life formed from matter and energy, as it appears as though right now, the rest of the universe is devoid of it.

I think the best evidence against would again be the sheer odds. That some pan-creator specifically tooled us into existence with the bizarre rules that our current list of religions have fit Him, and indeed, some how, the rules of whatever religion is correct actually are true.

Funny that the best we can muster puts us right back where we started. I've seen you about the religion forums, you seem very well spoken. Good a time as any to give you a thumbs up.

Thank ya, sir.

On the topic at hand: its not easy. Religion has its own special set of "Add ons" to reality vested in the supernatural. All of that can answer the question of our origin, but it leaves God alone for... wow, only God knows how long before creation took form. Purely naturalistic means makes one wonder where it all came from, or if our current existence is unique. Is this the honeymoon between the next Bang-to-Crunch cycle? Do those happen? Is the black of space simply the result of more ultramassive black holes, and is THAT the reason why we are accelerating outward... in essence just being drawn to a black hole that defies our understanding?

Assuming I am full of it, how does an infinite reward or punishment justify a few years of finite misconduct? If life as we know it is transitional to a spirit being with our creator in an afterlife, this stop along the way is awfully pointless.

Unless the figure actually responsible for it all just got bored and decided to play with some ants.

Honestly, when I think of what deity may be up there I think of Micky Mouse from that Fantasia short. Perhaps the sorcerer's apprentice just muddled with the master's experiment and here we are.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,237
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4/25/2015 2:39:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 2:34:46 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:29:19 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:19:26 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:14:21 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:03:04 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
Time for a generic question, all" vsy",
What is the most compelling argument you've heard from your opposition?
I'm still a bit of a young-blood atheist and have not had much in the way of debate beyond semi-heated family arguments and I'm curious.

A quick request that everyone be civil and try not to preach, m"rke

I think the best evidence for would be the sheer odds that something like life formed from matter and energy, as it appears as though right now, the rest of the universe is devoid of it.

I think the best evidence against would again be the sheer odds. That some pan-creator specifically tooled us into existence with the bizarre rules that our current list of religions have fit Him, and indeed, some how, the rules of whatever religion is correct actually are true.

Funny that the best we can muster puts us right back where we started. I've seen you about the religion forums, you seem very well spoken. Good a time as any to give you a thumbs up.

Thank ya, sir.

On the topic at hand: its not easy. Religion has its own special set of "Add ons" to reality vested in the supernatural. All of that can answer the question of our origin, but it leaves God alone for... wow, only God knows how long before creation took form. Purely naturalistic means makes one wonder where it all came from, or if our current existence is unique. Is this the honeymoon between the next Bang-to-Crunch cycle? Do those happen? Is the black of space simply the result of more ultramassive black holes, and is THAT the reason why we are accelerating outward... in essence just being drawn to a black hole that defies our understanding?

Assuming I am full of it, how does an infinite reward or punishment justify a few years of finite misconduct? If life as we know it is transitional to a spirit being with our creator in an afterlife, this stop along the way is awfully pointless.

Unless the figure actually responsible for it all just got bored and decided to play with some ants.

Honestly, when I think of what deity may be up there I think of Micky Mouse from that Fantasia short. Perhaps the sorcerer's apprentice just muddled with the master's experiment and here we are.

That's another possibility that would make sense, too. If you look at the Earth as a scientist looks a petri dish, our scurrying about now has a purpose, but I am not sure whose best interest said purpose is for. Mars, Venus, etc etc... they are just petri dishes with different augur on them.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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4/25/2015 2:40:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 2:39:06 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:34:46 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:29:19 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:19:26 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:14:21 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:03:04 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
Time for a generic question, all" vsy",
What is the most compelling argument you've heard from your opposition?
I'm still a bit of a young-blood atheist and have not had much in the way of debate beyond semi-heated family arguments and I'm curious.

A quick request that everyone be civil and try not to preach, m"rke

I think the best evidence for would be the sheer odds that something like life formed from matter and energy, as it appears as though right now, the rest of the universe is devoid of it.

I think the best evidence against would again be the sheer odds. That some pan-creator specifically tooled us into existence with the bizarre rules that our current list of religions have fit Him, and indeed, some how, the rules of whatever religion is correct actually are true.

Funny that the best we can muster puts us right back where we started. I've seen you about the religion forums, you seem very well spoken. Good a time as any to give you a thumbs up.

Thank ya, sir.

On the topic at hand: its not easy. Religion has its own special set of "Add ons" to reality vested in the supernatural. All of that can answer the question of our origin, but it leaves God alone for... wow, only God knows how long before creation took form. Purely naturalistic means makes one wonder where it all came from, or if our current existence is unique. Is this the honeymoon between the next Bang-to-Crunch cycle? Do those happen? Is the black of space simply the result of more ultramassive black holes, and is THAT the reason why we are accelerating outward... in essence just being drawn to a black hole that defies our understanding?

Assuming I am full of it, how does an infinite reward or punishment justify a few years of finite misconduct? If life as we know it is transitional to a spirit being with our creator in an afterlife, this stop along the way is awfully pointless.

Unless the figure actually responsible for it all just got bored and decided to play with some ants.

Honestly, when I think of what deity may be up there I think of Micky Mouse from that Fantasia short. Perhaps the sorcerer's apprentice just muddled with the master's experiment and here we are.

That's another possibility that would make sense, too. If you look at the Earth as a scientist looks a petri dish, our scurrying about now has a purpose, but I am not sure whose best interest said purpose is for. Mars, Venus, etc etc... they are just petri dishes with different augur on them.

Quite so.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,933
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4/25/2015 4:35:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 2:40:48 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:39:06 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:34:46 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:29:19 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:19:26 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:14:21 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:03:04 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
Time for a generic question, all" vsy",
What is the most compelling argument you've heard from your opposition?
I'm still a bit of a young-blood atheist and have not had much in the way of debate beyond semi-heated family arguments and I'm curious.

A quick request that everyone be civil and try not to preach, m"rke

I think the best evidence for would be the sheer odds that something like life formed from matter and energy, as it appears as though right now, the rest of the universe is devoid of it.

I think the best evidence against would again be the sheer odds. That some pan-creator specifically tooled us into existence with the bizarre rules that our current list of religions have fit Him, and indeed, some how, the rules of whatever religion is correct actually are true.

Funny that the best we can muster puts us right back where we started. I've seen you about the religion forums, you seem very well spoken. Good a time as any to give you a thumbs up.

Thank ya, sir.

On the topic at hand: its not easy. Religion has its own special set of "Add ons" to reality vested in the supernatural. All of that can answer the question of our origin, but it leaves God alone for... wow, only God knows how long before creation took form. Purely naturalistic means makes one wonder where it all came from, or if our current existence is unique. Is this the honeymoon between the next Bang-to-Crunch cycle? Do those happen? Is the black of space simply the result of more ultramassive black holes, and is THAT the reason why we are accelerating outward... in essence just being drawn to a black hole that defies our understanding?

Assuming I am full of it, how does an infinite reward or punishment justify a few years of finite misconduct? If life as we know it is transitional to a spirit being with our creator in an afterlife, this stop along the way is awfully pointless.

Unless the figure actually responsible for it all just got bored and decided to play with some ants.

Honestly, when I think of what deity may be up there I think of Micky Mouse from that Fantasia short. Perhaps the sorcerer's apprentice just muddled with the master's experiment and here we are.

That's another possibility that would make sense, too. If you look at the Earth as a scientist looks a petri dish, our scurrying about now has a purpose, but I am not sure whose best interest said purpose is for. Mars, Venus, etc etc... they are just petri dishes with different augur on them.

Quite so.

I'm sorry to have to interrupt you pair of condecending comical Chip-munks, who are so busy titillating each others ears, but I don't think you have any understanding of the subject that you are discussing.

With the event that is called "The Big Bang" Space-time begins to expand and in that process, the electromagnetic energy that is spewed out in the trillios and trillions of degrees, is formed into a physical universe, of which there are and infinite number within this eternal and boundless Cosmos.

With the event that is called "The Big Crunch" Space-Time contracts back to the beginning, where the physical universe is converted back to the electromagnetic energy from which it originated, taking with it all the information that is gathered in that cycle of universal activity, which is returned, not to some new beginning, but to "THE VERY BEGINNING" before space and Time came into being, from which it originated,

Our ancient ancestors expressed their belief that our scientist today are just beginning to come to terms with, and that is, that the universal body exists in its two states of energy and Matter.

Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence." ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara or the cycle of manifestation, "The Great Day," which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by "Pralaya," a dark period, which to our finite minds seems as an eternity. "Manvantara," is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, "Pralaya," is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the generations of the universe.

The English word "Generation," is translated from the Hebrew "toledoth" which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as "births," or "descendants," such as "These are the generations of Adam," or "these are the generations of Abraham, and in Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc.

And the "Great Day" in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, and able to visit all the infinite number of universes that still exist in Space-Time. while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

A series of worlds following one upon the other,-- each generation rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. Every universe from the first to the last, from the smallest to the greatest, which have been created throughout the eons of eternity, still exist in their independent Space-Time positions within the eternal and boundless cosmos.

The New international Version, the Scofield Referrence Bible, and the Companion Bible, all note that the phase in Genesis 1: 2; The earth was formless and void (Having neither shape or mass) should be correctly translated, "The earth became without form and void." The Hebrew word "Hayah" translated "was," means "To become, occur, come to pass, Be." (Vines Complete Expository of Old and New Testament Words, 1985. "To Be.")

To be continued.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,130
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4/25/2015 8:12:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 2:03:04 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
Time for a generic question, all" vsy",
What is the most compelling argument you've heard from your opposition?
I'm still a bit of a young-blood atheist and have not had much in the way of debate beyond semi-heated family arguments and I'm curious.

A quick request that everyone be civil and try not to preach, m"rke

The argument from desire.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org...

I'm sure most atheists will say the first cause argument or something along those lines, but it is an argument from ignorance. So, I've chosen an emotional appeal since that is where I believe the strongest call to belief (or continued belief) actually comes from.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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4/25/2015 8:30:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
There's really only two good arguments for atheism, imo (or one if you subsume one into the other like some do).

Argument from evil
Argument from divine hiddenness

Imo, the rest are pretty weak (especially the "science-y" ones).
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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4/25/2015 1:16:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 4:35:26 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:40:48 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:39:06 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:34:46 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:29:19 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:19:26 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:14:21 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:03:04 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
Time for a generic question, all" vsy",
What is the most compelling argument you've heard from your opposition?
I'm still a bit of a young-blood atheist and have not had much in the way of debate beyond semi-heated family arguments and I'm curious.

A quick request that everyone be civil and try not to preach, m"rke

I think the best evidence for would be the sheer odds that something like life formed from matter and energy, as it appears as though right now, the rest of the universe is devoid of it.

I think the best evidence against would again be the sheer odds. That some pan-creator specifically tooled us into existence with the bizarre rules that our current list of religions have fit Him, and indeed, some how, the rules of whatever religion is correct actually are true.

Funny that the best we can muster puts us right back where we started. I've seen you about the religion forums, you seem very well spoken. Good a time as any to give you a thumbs up.

Thank ya, sir.

On the topic at hand: its not easy. Religion has its own special set of "Add ons" to reality vested in the supernatural. All of that can answer the question of our origin, but it leaves God alone for... wow, only God knows how long before creation took form. Purely naturalistic means makes one wonder where it all came from, or if our current existence is unique. Is this the honeymoon between the next Bang-to-Crunch cycle? Do those happen? Is the black of space simply the result of more ultramassive black holes, and is THAT the reason why we are accelerating outward... in essence just being drawn to a black hole that defies our understanding?

Assuming I am full of it, how does an infinite reward or punishment justify a few years of finite misconduct? If life as we know it is transitional to a spirit being with our creator in an afterlife, this stop along the way is awfully pointless.

Unless the figure actually responsible for it all just got bored and decided to play with some ants.

Honestly, when I think of what deity may be up there I think of Micky Mouse from that Fantasia short. Perhaps the sorcerer's apprentice just muddled with the master's experiment and here we are.

That's another possibility that would make sense, too. If you look at the Earth as a scientist looks a petri dish, our scurrying about now has a purpose, but I am not sure whose best interest said purpose is for. Mars, Venus, etc etc... they are just petri dishes with different augur on them.

Quite so.

I'm sorry to have to interrupt you pair of condecending comical Chip-munks, who are so busy titillating each others ears, but I don't think you have any understanding of the subject that you are discussing.

With the event that is called "The Big Bang" Space-time begins to expand and in that process, the electromagnetic energy that is spewed out in the trillios and trillions of degrees, is formed into a physical universe, of which there are and infinite number within this eternal and boundless Cosmos.

With the event that is called "The Big Crunch" Space-Time contracts back to the beginning, where the physical universe is converted back to the electromagnetic energy from which it originated, taking with it all the information that is gathered in that cycle of universal activity, which is returned, not to some new beginning, but to "THE VERY BEGINNING" before space and Time came into being, from which it originated,

Our ancient ancestors expressed their belief that our scientist today are just beginning to come to terms with, and that is, that the universal body exists in its two states of energy and Matter.

Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence." ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara or the cycle of manifestation, "The Great Day," which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by "Pralaya," a dark period, which to our finite minds seems as an eternity. "Manvantara," is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, "Pralaya," is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the generations of the universe.

The English word "Generation," is translated from the Hebrew "toledoth" which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as "births," or "descendants," such as "These are the generations of Adam," or "these are the generations of Abraham, and in Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc.

And the "Great Day" in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, and able to visit all the infinite number of universes that still exist in Space-Time. while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

A series of worlds following one upon the other,-- each generation rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. Every universe from the first to the last, from the smallest to the greatest, which have been created throughout the eons of eternity, still exist in their independent Space-Time positions within the eternal and boundless cosmos.

The New international Version, the Scofield Referrence Bible, and the Companion Bible, all note that the phase in Genesis 1: 2; The earth was formless and void (Having neither shape or mass) should be correctly translated, "The earth became without form and void." The Hebrew word "Hayah" translated "was," means "To become, occur, come to pass, Be." (Vines Complete Expository of Old and New Testament Words, 1985. "To Be.")

To be continued.

Not sure why you felt it necessary to be an assh0le, but alright.
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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4/25/2015 1:17:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 8:30:45 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's really only two good arguments for atheism, imo (or one if you subsume one into the other like some do).

Argument from evil
Argument from divine hiddenness

Imo, the rest are pretty weak (especially the "science-y" ones).

What sort of "scienc-y" ones are you referring to?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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4/25/2015 1:21:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 1:17:15 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 8:30:45 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's really only two good arguments for atheism, imo (or one if you subsume one into the other like some do).

Argument from evil
Argument from divine hiddenness

Imo, the rest are pretty weak (especially the "science-y" ones).

What sort of "scienc-y" ones are you referring to?

Ones like "due to the progress of science, God as an explanation is rendered superfluous". Or stuff like "if it's not (scientifically) verifiable, then I have no reason to believe it", etc etc.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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4/25/2015 1:23:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 1:21:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/25/2015 1:17:15 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 8:30:45 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's really only two good arguments for atheism, imo (or one if you subsume one into the other like some do).

Argument from evil
Argument from divine hiddenness

Imo, the rest are pretty weak (especially the "science-y" ones).

What sort of "scienc-y" ones are you referring to?

Ones like "due to the progress of science, God as an explanation is rendered superfluous". Or stuff like "if it's not (scientifically) verifiable, then I have no reason to believe it", etc etc.

Those statements seem to be less of an argument and more of a personal reasoning. There is some weight to both statements, but you're right they aren't particularly useful in debate, but they're also not terribly scientific.
SNP1
Posts: 2,404
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4/25/2015 1:29:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 8:30:45 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Imo, the rest are pretty weak (especially the "science-y" ones).

Really? You don't like my tenseless argument? I understand that it does not get rid of essential causality (which I am working on arguments to do that), but it does get rid of god as a temporal cause.
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popculturepooka
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4/25/2015 1:32:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 1:29:20 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 4/25/2015 8:30:45 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Imo, the rest are pretty weak (especially the "science-y" ones).

Really? You don't like my tenseless argument? I understand that it does not get rid of essential causality (which I am working on arguments to do that), but it does get rid of god as a temporal cause.

I haven't looked at it yet. Post the link again? Forgot to look at it last time.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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SNP1
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4/25/2015 1:36:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 1:32:55 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/25/2015 1:29:20 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 4/25/2015 8:30:45 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Imo, the rest are pretty weak (especially the "science-y" ones).

Really? You don't like my tenseless argument? I understand that it does not get rid of essential causality (which I am working on arguments to do that), but it does get rid of god as a temporal cause.

I haven't looked at it yet. Post the link again? Forgot to look at it last time.

Can't remember where the link was (it included what I am working on so far for getting rid of an essential cause as well), but the tenselss one is also used in this debate of mine (3rd argument on round 2):
http://www.debate.org...
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popculturepooka
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4/25/2015 1:37:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 1:23:43 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 1:21:25 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/25/2015 1:17:15 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 8:30:45 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's really only two good arguments for atheism, imo (or one if you subsume one into the other like some do).

Argument from evil
Argument from divine hiddenness

Imo, the rest are pretty weak (especially the "science-y" ones).

What sort of "scienc-y" ones are you referring to?

Ones like "due to the progress of science, God as an explanation is rendered superfluous". Or stuff like "if it's not (scientifically) verifiable, then I have no reason to believe it", etc etc.

Those statements seem to be less of an argument and more of a personal reasoning. There is some weight to both statements, but you're right they aren't particularly useful in debate, but they're also not terribly scientific.

I'm just using those as placeholders for more sophisticated arguments of the same type that I have read and heard.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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Skepsikyma
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4/25/2015 2:20:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The most compelling argument for believing in theism, in my opinion, is that it doesn't matter whether or not it is true because religion fulfills essential societal functions. It's a practical argument. As a pretty devoted aesthete, I also recognize the formative notion which religion often plays when it comes to the conception and presentation of beauty. Religious thought is fecund ground for aesthetic pursuits, because it is so steeped in primal, fundamentally human paradigms that manifest in a lot of art. I'm an atheist, but I see religion as valuable, especially to people who do not want to, or cannot, see the world as I do.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Gentorev
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4/26/2015 4:21:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 1:16:38 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 4:35:26 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:40:48 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:39:06 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:34:46 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:29:19 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:19:26 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:14:21 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:03:04 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
Time for a generic question, all" vsy",
What is the most compelling argument you've heard from your opposition?
I'm still a bit of a young-blood atheist and have not had much in the way of debate beyond semi-heated family arguments and I'm curious.

A quick request that everyone be civil and try not to preach, m"rke

I think the best evidence for would be the sheer odds that something like life formed from matter and energy, as it appears as though right now, the rest of the universe is devoid of it.

I think the best evidence against would again be the sheer odds. That some pan-creator specifically tooled us into existence with the bizarre rules that our current list of religions have fit Him, and indeed, some how, the rules of whatever religion is correct actually are true.

Funny that the best we can muster puts us right back where we started. I've seen you about the religion forums, you seem very well spoken. Good a time as any to give you a thumbs up.

Thank ya, sir.

On the topic at hand: its not easy. Religion has its own special set of "Add ons" to reality vested in the supernatural. All of that can answer the question of our origin, but it leaves God alone for... wow, only God knows how long before creation took form. Purely naturalistic means makes one wonder where it all came from, or if our current existence is unique. Is this the honeymoon between the next Bang-to-Crunch cycle? Do those happen? Is the black of space simply the result of more ultramassive black holes, and is THAT the reason why we are accelerating outward... in essence just being drawn to a black hole that defies our understanding?

Assuming I am full of it, how does an infinite reward or punishment justify a few years of finite misconduct? If life as we know it is transitional to a spirit being with our creator in an afterlife, this stop along the way is awfully pointless.

Unless the figure actually responsible for it all just got bored and decided to play with some ants.

Honestly, when I think of what deity may be up there I think of Micky Mouse from that Fantasia short. Perhaps the sorcerer's apprentice just muddled with the master's experiment and here we are.

That's another possibility that would make sense, too. If you look at the Earth as a scientist looks a petri dish, our scurrying about now has a purpose, but I am not sure whose best interest said purpose is for. Mars, Venus, etc etc... they are just petri dishes with different augur on them.

Quite so.

I'm sorry to have to interrupt you pair of condecending comical Chip-munks, who are so busy titillating each others ears, but I don't think you have any understanding of the subject that you are discussing.

With the event that is called "The Big Bang" Space-time begins to expand and in that process, the electromagnetic energy that is spewed out in the trillios and trillions of degrees, is formed into a physical universe, of which there are and infinite number within this eternal and boundless Cosmos.

With the event that is called "The Big Crunch" Space-Time contracts back to the beginning, where the physical universe is converted back to the electromagnetic energy from which it originated, taking with it all the information that is gathered in that cycle of universal activity, which is returned, not to some new beginning, but to "THE VERY BEGINNING" before space and Time came into being, from which it originated,

Our ancient ancestors expressed their belief that our scientist today are just beginning to come to terms with, and that is, that the universal body exists in its two states of energy and Matter.

Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence." ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara or the cycle of manifestation, "The Great Day," which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by "Pralaya," a dark period, which to our finite minds seems as an eternity. "Manvantara," is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, "Pralaya," is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the generations of the universe.

The English word "Generation," is translated from the Hebrew "toledoth" which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as "births," or "descendants," such as "These are the generations of Adam," or "these are the generations of Abraham, and in Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc.

And the "Great Day" in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, and able to visit all the infinite number of universes that still exist in Space-Time. while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

A series of worlds following one upon the other,-- each generation rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. Every universe from the first to the last, from the smallest to the greatest, which have been created throughout the eons of eternity, still exist in their independent Space-Time positions within the eternal and boundless cosmos.

The New international Version, the Scofield Referrence Bible, and the Companion Bible, all note that the phase in Genesis 1: 2; The earth was formless and void (Having neither shape or mass) should be correctly translated, "The earth became without form and void." The Hebrew word "Hayah" translated "was," means "To become, occur, come to pass, Be." (Vines Complete Expository of Old and New Testament Words, 1985. "To Be.")

To be continued.

Not sure why you felt it necessary to be an assh0le, but alright.

Being an 18 year old child just out of its nappies, the old assh0le asks the child: Do you accept the concept that following each spatial separation of the singularity of origin and the stretching out of Space-Time, comes the Big Crunch, when Space-time is condensed back to the singularity of origin, before another Big Bang event?
RuvDraba
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4/26/2015 4:34:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 2:03:04 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
What is the most compelling argument you've heard from your opposition?

Although I'm antitheistic I don't view religious people as opposition. They're colleagues, most of whom have ideas I consider erroneous, and not a few have bad and cruel ideas they don't realise are bad and cruel -- which doesn't mean they're bad and cruel outside those ideas.

For me, the most compelling arguments for religion in society have nothing to do with metaphysical claims, but everything to do with the role of religion psychosocially.

Religion can offer social comfort and can at times help build community cohesion. Among the Jews, for example, religion built a resilient national identity that survived loss of land, and subjugation by multiple societies that hated them.

So religion can be very powerful in this way. And one could make the case (though few religious do) that there are times when that sort of comfort and cohesion might be the difference between a civilisation and its culture surviving and falling apart.

That's a contestable argument, but I think there's some solid objective evidence to offer on the pro side. However, even if true, I'm unpersuaded that it's good for humanity over-all; and I'm convinced it's doing more harm than good to a great many individuals.
Gentorev
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4/26/2015 5:01:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 4:34:56 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/25/2015 2:03:04 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
What is the most compelling argument you've heard from your opposition?

Although I'm antitheistic I don't view religious people as opposition. They're colleagues, most of whom have ideas I consider erroneous, and not a few have bad and cruel ideas they don't realise are bad and cruel -- which doesn't mean they're bad and cruel outside those ideas.

For me, the most compelling arguments for religion in society have nothing to do with metaphysical claims, but everything to do with the role of religion psychosocially.

Religion can offer social comfort and can at times help build community cohesion. Among the Jews, for example, religion built a resilient national identity that survived loss of land, and subjugation by multiple societies that hated them.

So religion can be very powerful in this way. And one could make the case (though few religious do) that there are times when that sort of comfort and cohesion might be the difference between a civilisation and its culture surviving and falling apart.

That's a contestable argument, but I think there's some solid objective evidence to offer on the pro side. However, even if true, I'm unpersuaded that it's good for humanity over-all; and I'm convinced it's doing more harm than good to a great many individuals.

I'm in agreement with you in part, as I await the day that the Lord, the MOST HIGH in the creation takes his throne in Jerusalem after bringing all nations into subjection. There to rule the whole world with a rod of iron and to judge the world with Justice.

And then there will be no diverse and contradictory religious beliefs. No more will the people of the world in their cathedrals of stone, marble, and crystal, with their eyes and hands raised to the heavens, sing praise to a god that they neither know nor understand, as all nations will send their representatives each year to pay tribute to, and worship the Lord as King, and woe betide those nations who refuse to do so.
RuvDraba
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4/26/2015 5:31:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 5:01:15 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 4/26/2015 4:34:56 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
Religion can offer social comfort and can at times help build community cohesion. Among the Jews, for example, religion built a resilient national identity that survived loss of land, and subjugation by multiple societies that hated them.

I'm in agreement with you in part, as I await the day that the Lord, the MOST HIGH in the creation takes his throne in Jerusalem after bringing all nations into subjection. There to rule the whole world with a rod of iron and to judge the world with Justice.

Thank you for the example, Gentorev -- it's exactly the problem I alluded to. Especially in the face of fear, greed, or desperation, people who believe in the manifest moral destiny of their own faith can suffer great temptation to hurt, harm or destroy others, confident that it serves their inevitable destiny anyway, and anxious that if they don't they may be opposing divine will.

If that claim to moral authority really were supported by some overwhelming interventionist power perhaps there'd be a pragmatic case, if not a moral one. However without the evidence but only the faith, I think it creates moral jeopardy.
Skepticalone
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4/26/2015 7:29:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Not sure why you felt it necessary to be an assh0le, but alright.

Being an 18 year old child just out of its nappies, the old assh0le asks the child: Do you accept the concept that following each spatial separation of the singularity of origin and the stretching out of Space-Time, comes the Big Crunch, w

The big crunch fell out of favor a while ago. The cosmic microwave background and other experimental evidence shows that the universe is accelerating. There does not appear to be sufficient gravity to slow it down.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

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What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Double_R
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4/26/2015 10:25:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 2:03:04 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
Time for a generic question, all" vsy",
What is the most compelling argument you've heard from your opposition?
I'm still a bit of a young-blood atheist and have not had much in the way of debate beyond semi-heated family arguments and I'm curious.

A quick request that everyone be civil and try not to preach, m"rke

The Kalam Cosmological argument was always the most compelling for me, although I never took it as conclusive. Of course after taking a hard look at the argument I realized what nonsense it is. The premises are asserted with no merit and the conclusions do not follow, which pretty much sums up every argument I have ever heard in support of theism.
Double_R
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4/26/2015 10:30:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/25/2015 8:30:45 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's really only two good arguments for atheism, imo (or one if you subsume one into the other like some do).

Argument from evil
Argument from divine hiddenness

Imo, the rest are pretty weak (especially the "science-y" ones).

There's no such thing as an argument for atheism.
popculturepooka
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4/26/2015 6:08:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 10:30:06 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/25/2015 8:30:45 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's really only two good arguments for atheism, imo (or one if you subsume one into the other like some do).

Argument from evil
Argument from divine hiddenness

Imo, the rest are pretty weak (especially the "science-y" ones).

There's no such thing as an argument for atheism.

Yes there is. I just presented two.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Double_R
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4/26/2015 6:11:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 6:08:20 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/26/2015 10:30:06 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/25/2015 8:30:45 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's really only two good arguments for atheism, imo (or one if you subsume one into the other like some do).

Argument from evil
Argument from divine hiddenness

Imo, the rest are pretty weak (especially the "science-y" ones).

There's no such thing as an argument for atheism.

Yes there is. I just presented two.

Those are not arguments for atheism. They are rebuttals to a particular theistic claim.
popculturepooka
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4/26/2015 6:13:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 6:11:18 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/26/2015 6:08:20 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/26/2015 10:30:06 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/25/2015 8:30:45 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's really only two good arguments for atheism, imo (or one if you subsume one into the other like some do).

Argument from evil
Argument from divine hiddenness

Imo, the rest are pretty weak (especially the "science-y" ones).

There's no such thing as an argument for atheism.

Yes there is. I just presented two.

Those are not arguments for atheism. They are rebuttals to a particular theistic claim.

No, a "rebuttal" to a theistic claim would be refuting the KCA for instance.

The two arguments I mentioned put forward positive cases as to why a certain God doesn't/can't exist or probably doesn't exist. Hence, arguments for atheism.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Double_R
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4/26/2015 6:19:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 6:13:41 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/26/2015 6:11:18 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/26/2015 6:08:20 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/26/2015 10:30:06 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/25/2015 8:30:45 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
There's really only two good arguments for atheism, imo (or one if you subsume one into the other like some do).

Argument from evil
Argument from divine hiddenness

Imo, the rest are pretty weak (especially the "science-y" ones).

There's no such thing as an argument for atheism.

Yes there is. I just presented two.

Those are not arguments for atheism. They are rebuttals to a particular theistic claim.

No, a "rebuttal" to a theistic claim would be refuting the KCA for instance.

The two arguments I mentioned put forward positive cases as to why a certain God doesn't/can't exist or probably doesn't exist. Hence, arguments for atheism.

Exactly. If one believes in a God that is not all loving, or not all powerful, then the argument from evil does not refute it or even address it. Atheism is not the lack of belief in a certain God, it's the lack of belief in any God(s). An argument that is entirely consistent with some or actually many theistic claims is not an argument for atheism.