Total Posts:71|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

The Consequences of Free Will

DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
"Free will is the ability of agents to make choices unimpeded. For example, in the religious realm, free will implies that individual will and choices can coexist with an omnipotent, omniscient divinity that raises certain injunctions or moral obligations for man."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

There are harsh consequences to not following the will of God. It's argued that we don't have free will if such consequences exist, and instead we are faced with a threat instead of a choice.

The challenge:

Explain why such a world of free will without such consequences cannot exist? Why must there be harsh consequences to our choices?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2015 11:00:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Good luck with that.

I never understood how anyone can hide behind the defense of free will. If I was going to live 75 or so years on planet earth then spend eternity either living in eternal bliss surrounded by everyone I love or drowning in a lake of fire, and my eternal existence was dependent on my choices here... Then I don't want free will. Why would anyone consider that a gift? That's like giving your 3 year old the free will to decide if they want to cross the street.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2015 2:33:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 11:00:59 AM, Double_R wrote:
Good luck with that.

I never understood how anyone can hide behind the defense of free will. If I was going to live 75 or so years on planet earth then spend eternity either living in eternal bliss surrounded by everyone I love or drowning in a lake of fire, and my eternal existence was dependent on my choices here... Then I don't want free will. Why would anyone consider that a gift? That's like giving your 3 year old the free will to decide if they want to cross the street.

I think both you and that troll, are now dishonestly changing the sense of the words involved compared to when they are usually used to answer atheist.

Why is there evil in the world, people suffering? the answer given by theist is free will. Why? because the majority of the suffering comes from the choices people make. Either someone is making a choice that adversely effects someone else, or making a choice that adversely effect themselves.

The ridiculousness of the Atheist is to suggest that choices should have no consequences. not only does that break the law of causality all over the place, but it removes any reason for the choice in the first place.

How bizarre is it that Atheist in an attempt to discredit "Free will" they redefine it in such a way that is so different from how it has been understood for centuries. And redefine it to the point where it because nonexistent.

What this thread is really asking but using those words is, why the eternal punishment for a finite series of choices?

but let's not confuse this with free will as an accurate answer to why humans suffer.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2015 2:39:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 2:33:56 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/26/2015 11:00:59 AM, Double_R wrote:
Good luck with that.

I never understood how anyone can hide behind the defense of free will. If I was going to live 75 or so years on planet earth then spend eternity either living in eternal bliss surrounded by everyone I love or drowning in a lake of fire, and my eternal existence was dependent on my choices here... Then I don't want free will. Why would anyone consider that a gift? That's like giving your 3 year old the free will to decide if they want to cross the street.

I think both you and that troll, are now dishonestly changing the sense of the words involved compared to when they are usually used to answer atheist.

Why is there evil in the world, people suffering? the answer given by theist is free will. Why? because the majority of the suffering comes from the choices people make. Either someone is making a choice that adversely effects someone else, or making a choice that adversely effect themselves.

The ridiculousness of the Atheist is to suggest that choices should have no consequences. not only does that break the law of causality all over the place, but it removes any reason for the choice in the first place.

How bizarre is it that Atheist in an attempt to discredit "Free will" they redefine it in such a way that is so different from how it has been understood for centuries. And redefine it to the point where it because nonexistent.

What this thread is really asking but using those words is, why the eternal punishment for a finite series of choices?

but let's not confuse this with free will as an accurate answer to why humans suffer.

Can you respond to anything I say without completely and utterly attacking a straw-man?

What I was talking about was the way theists use free will as an excuse for not holding God responsible for people suffering in hell for all eternity. That has absolutely nothing to do with changing definitions, and has absolutely nothing to do with your own ridiculous made up idea that atheists are suggesting that actions should have no consequences. How the hell did you get to that?

Please, if you're not going to read what I write then do not bother responding to it.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2015 2:52:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
"Free will is the ability of agents to make choices unimpeded. For example, in the religious realm, free will implies that individual will and choices can coexist with an omnipotent, omniscient divinity that raises certain injunctions or moral obligations for man."
http://en.wikipedia.org...

For completeness:

Coercion is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation or threats or some other form of pressure or force.These actions can include [...] extortion, blackmail, torture, and threats to induce favors. [http://en.wikipedia.org...]

So for example, if humans confiscates property, impose discriminatory taxes, or impose torture, persecution or genocide to enforce religious conversion, that's called coercion, and impedes free will.

Coercion of this sort is normally considered a great evil.

It might be argued that a metaphysical being is beyond such moral measures though -- especially if it created the universe and imposes its own morality thereon.

I don't personally agree with that proposition, but some might wish to argue it.

However, that argument would ignore the key point that such a being is not making these threats.

Humans are -- they're threatening one another on behalf of supposed metaphysical beings.

And on no material evidence at all that these beings exist or that these threats are real.

So how is it that we should not call humans making these threats -- especially when they make them to vulnerable, helpless children they are meant to love and cherish -- anything but evil?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2015 2:54:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 2:39:42 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/26/2015 2:33:56 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/26/2015 11:00:59 AM, Double_R wrote:
Good luck with that.

I never understood how anyone can hide behind the defense of free will. If I was going to live 75 or so years on planet earth then spend eternity either living in eternal bliss surrounded by everyone I love or drowning in a lake of fire, and my eternal existence was dependent on my choices here... Then I don't want free will. Why would anyone consider that a gift? That's like giving your 3 year old the free will to decide if they want to cross the street.

I think both you and that troll, are now dishonestly changing the sense of the words involved compared to when they are usually used to answer atheist.

Why is there evil in the world, people suffering? the answer given by theist is free will. Why? because the majority of the suffering comes from the choices people make. Either someone is making a choice that adversely effects someone else, or making a choice that adversely effect themselves.

The ridiculousness of the Atheist is to suggest that choices should have no consequences. not only does that break the law of causality all over the place, but it removes any reason for the choice in the first place.

How bizarre is it that Atheist in an attempt to discredit "Free will" they redefine it in such a way that is so different from how it has been understood for centuries. And redefine it to the point where it because nonexistent.

What this thread is really asking but using those words is, why the eternal punishment for a finite series of choices?

but let's not confuse this with free will as an accurate answer to why humans suffer.

Can you respond to anything I say without completely and utterly attacking a straw-man?

What I was talking about was the way theists use free will as an excuse for not holding God responsible for people suffering in hell for all eternity. That has absolutely nothing to do with changing definitions, and has absolutely nothing to do with your own ridiculous made up idea that atheists are suggesting that actions should have no consequences. How the hell did you get to that?

DanneJeRusse and Composer supported that "free will" be defined as choices with no consequences.


Please, if you're not going to read what I write then do not bother responding to it.

Well it's just so atheist isn't it. Free will is like a 3 year choosing to cross the road. your right about that the atheist think a world with a god should be like a baby nursery. Actually I see a lot of the dignity of maturity and people in general is removed by liberal atheist agendas.

No one needs to be responsible for their actions. But free to do what ever they want.

And you wonder why that doesn't lead to a collapsed country, bias ethics, selfish people, and hell fire? Really, you actually wonder at why utter failure is the result of that kind of thinking?

Dumb.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2015 2:59:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 2:54:53 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/26/2015 2:39:42 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/26/2015 2:33:56 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/26/2015 11:00:59 AM, Double_R wrote:
Good luck with that.

I never understood how anyone can hide behind the defense of free will. If I was going to live 75 or so years on planet earth then spend eternity either living in eternal bliss surrounded by everyone I love or drowning in a lake of fire, and my eternal existence was dependent on my choices here... Then I don't want free will. Why would anyone consider that a gift? That's like giving your 3 year old the free will to decide if they want to cross the street.

I think both you and that troll, are now dishonestly changing the sense of the words involved compared to when they are usually used to answer atheist.

Why is there evil in the world, people suffering? the answer given by theist is free will. Why? because the majority of the suffering comes from the choices people make. Either someone is making a choice that adversely effects someone else, or making a choice that adversely effect themselves.

The ridiculousness of the Atheist is to suggest that choices should have no consequences. not only does that break the law of causality all over the place, but it removes any reason for the choice in the first place.

How bizarre is it that Atheist in an attempt to discredit "Free will" they redefine it in such a way that is so different from how it has been understood for centuries. And redefine it to the point where it because nonexistent.

What this thread is really asking but using those words is, why the eternal punishment for a finite series of choices?

but let's not confuse this with free will as an accurate answer to why humans suffer.

Can you respond to anything I say without completely and utterly attacking a straw-man?

What I was talking about was the way theists use free will as an excuse for not holding God responsible for people suffering in hell for all eternity. That has absolutely nothing to do with changing definitions, and has absolutely nothing to do with your own ridiculous made up idea that atheists are suggesting that actions should have no consequences. How the hell did you get to that?

DanneJeRusse and Composer supported that "free will" be defined as choices with no consequences.


Please, if you're not going to read what I write then do not bother responding to it.

Well it's just so atheist isn't it. Free will is like a 3 year choosing to cross the road. your right about that the atheist think a world with a god should be like a baby nursery. Actually I see a lot of the dignity of maturity and people in general is removed by liberal atheist agendas.

No one needs to be responsible for their actions. But free to do what ever they want.

And you wonder why that doesn't lead to a collapsed country, bias ethics, selfish people, and hell fire? Really, you actually wonder at why utter failure is the result of that kind of thinking?

Dumb.

I can see I am talking to myself, and apparently I am not the only one. Again, next time read what I actually wrote, then respond.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2015 3:02:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 2:59:57 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/26/2015 2:54:53 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/26/2015 2:39:42 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/26/2015 2:33:56 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/26/2015 11:00:59 AM, Double_R wrote:
Good luck with that.

I never understood how anyone can hide behind the defense of free will. If I was going to live 75 or so years on planet earth then spend eternity either living in eternal bliss surrounded by everyone I love or drowning in a lake of fire, and my eternal existence was dependent on my choices here... Then I don't want free will. Why would anyone consider that a gift? That's like giving your 3 year old the free will to decide if they want to cross the street.

I think both you and that troll, are now dishonestly changing the sense of the words involved compared to when they are usually used to answer atheist.

Why is there evil in the world, people suffering? the answer given by theist is free will. Why? because the majority of the suffering comes from the choices people make. Either someone is making a choice that adversely effects someone else, or making a choice that adversely effect themselves.

The ridiculousness of the Atheist is to suggest that choices should have no consequences. not only does that break the law of causality all over the place, but it removes any reason for the choice in the first place.

How bizarre is it that Atheist in an attempt to discredit "Free will" they redefine it in such a way that is so different from how it has been understood for centuries. And redefine it to the point where it because nonexistent.

What this thread is really asking but using those words is, why the eternal punishment for a finite series of choices?

but let's not confuse this with free will as an accurate answer to why humans suffer.

Can you respond to anything I say without completely and utterly attacking a straw-man?

What I was talking about was the way theists use free will as an excuse for not holding God responsible for people suffering in hell for all eternity. That has absolutely nothing to do with changing definitions, and has absolutely nothing to do with your own ridiculous made up idea that atheists are suggesting that actions should have no consequences. How the hell did you get to that?

DanneJeRusse and Composer supported that "free will" be defined as choices with no consequences.


Please, if you're not going to read what I write then do not bother responding to it.

Well it's just so atheist isn't it. Free will is like a 3 year choosing to cross the road. your right about that the atheist think a world with a god should be like a baby nursery. Actually I see a lot of the dignity of maturity and people in general is removed by liberal atheist agendas.

No one needs to be responsible for their actions. But free to do what ever they want.

And you wonder why that doesn't lead to a collapsed country, bias ethics, selfish people, and hell fire? Really, you actually wonder at why utter failure is the result of that kind of thinking?

Dumb.

I can see I am talking to myself, and apparently I am not the only one. Again, next time read what I actually wrote, then respond.

So you concede that atheist redefine free will as meaning "free to do actions without consequences".
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2015 3:07:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 3:02:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/26/2015 2:59:57 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/26/2015 2:54:53 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/26/2015 2:39:42 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/26/2015 2:33:56 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/26/2015 11:00:59 AM, Double_R wrote:
Good luck with that.

I never understood how anyone can hide behind the defense of free will. If I was going to live 75 or so years on planet earth then spend eternity either living in eternal bliss surrounded by everyone I love or drowning in a lake of fire, and my eternal existence was dependent on my choices here... Then I don't want free will. Why would anyone consider that a gift? That's like giving your 3 year old the free will to decide if they want to cross the street.

I think both you and that troll, are now dishonestly changing the sense of the words involved compared to when they are usually used to answer atheist.

Why is there evil in the world, people suffering? the answer given by theist is free will. Why? because the majority of the suffering comes from the choices people make. Either someone is making a choice that adversely effects someone else, or making a choice that adversely effect themselves.

The ridiculousness of the Atheist is to suggest that choices should have no consequences. not only does that break the law of causality all over the place, but it removes any reason for the choice in the first place.

How bizarre is it that Atheist in an attempt to discredit "Free will" they redefine it in such a way that is so different from how it has been understood for centuries. And redefine it to the point where it because nonexistent.

What this thread is really asking but using those words is, why the eternal punishment for a finite series of choices?

but let's not confuse this with free will as an accurate answer to why humans suffer.

Can you respond to anything I say without completely and utterly attacking a straw-man?

What I was talking about was the way theists use free will as an excuse for not holding God responsible for people suffering in hell for all eternity. That has absolutely nothing to do with changing definitions, and has absolutely nothing to do with your own ridiculous made up idea that atheists are suggesting that actions should have no consequences. How the hell did you get to that?

DanneJeRusse and Composer supported that "free will" be defined as choices with no consequences.


Please, if you're not going to read what I write then do not bother responding to it.

Well it's just so atheist isn't it. Free will is like a 3 year choosing to cross the road. your right about that the atheist think a world with a god should be like a baby nursery. Actually I see a lot of the dignity of maturity and people in general is removed by liberal atheist agendas.

No one needs to be responsible for their actions. But free to do what ever they want.

And you wonder why that doesn't lead to a collapsed country, bias ethics, selfish people, and hell fire? Really, you actually wonder at why utter failure is the result of that kind of thinking?

Dumb.

I can see I am talking to myself, and apparently I am not the only one. Again, next time read what I actually wrote, then respond.

So you concede that atheist redefine free will as meaning "free to do actions without consequences".

Just. Wow.
Rosco_P_Coletrain
Posts: 143
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2015 3:26:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Explain why such a world of free will without such consequences cannot exist? Why must there be harsh consequences to our choices?

Choose to step bare naked off a thousand foot cliff and tell me how that works out.

If you cannot see that consequences are an inseparable part of life you have fed yourself on too much fiction.

Go ahead there superman, jump off that cliff.
Rosco_P_Coletrain
Posts: 143
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2015 3:30:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 11:00:59 AM, Double_R wrote:
Good luck with that.

I never understood how anyone can hide behind the defense of free will. If I was going to live 75 or so years on planet earth then spend eternity either living in eternal bliss surrounded by everyone I love or drowning in a lake of fire, and my eternal existence was dependent on my choices here... Then I don't want free will. Why would anyone consider that a gift? That's like giving your 3 year old the free will to decide if they want to cross the street.

That is actually a very reasonable comment.

Unfortunately that comment is labored by false teachings such as a hell fire eternal torment and perhaps more I would be wiser not to mention at the moment.

But that is a respectful and well thought out comment.

I agree with you.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2015 5:21:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 3:26:14 PM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Explain why such a world of free will without such consequences cannot exist? Why must there be harsh consequences to our choices?

Choose to step bare naked off a thousand foot cliff and tell me how that works out.

If you cannot see that consequences are an inseparable part of life you have fed yourself on too much fiction.

Go ahead there superman, jump off that cliff.

Sorry, but we're not talking about a choice to commit suicide, we're talking about choices in life. Can you address the OP?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2015 5:25:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 2:33:56 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/26/2015 11:00:59 AM, Double_R wrote:
Good luck with that.

I never understood how anyone can hide behind the defense of free will. If I was going to live 75 or so years on planet earth then spend eternity either living in eternal bliss surrounded by everyone I love or drowning in a lake of fire, and my eternal existence was dependent on my choices here... Then I don't want free will. Why would anyone consider that a gift? That's like giving your 3 year old the free will to decide if they want to cross the street.

I think both you and that troll, are now dishonestly changing the sense of the words involved compared to when they are usually used to answer atheist.

This is the second time you ignored the fact that I provided a definition and a link, which means you are the troll.

Why is there evil in the world, people suffering? the answer given by theist is free will. Why? because the majority of the suffering comes from the choices people make. Either someone is making a choice that adversely effects someone else, or making a choice that adversely effect themselves.

Those who make such choices are in a very tiny minority, whereas the vast majority of folks are abhorred to make those kind of choices.

The ridiculousness of the Atheist is to suggest that choices should have no consequences. not only does that break the law of causality all over the place, but it removes any reason for the choice in the first place.

Sorry, that makes no sense at all. Can you actually address the OP and provide an explanation?

How bizarre is it that Atheist in an attempt to discredit "Free will" they redefine it in such a way that is so different from how it has been understood for centuries. And redefine it to the point where it because nonexistent.

What this thread is really asking but using those words is, why the eternal punishment for a finite series of choices?

but let's not confuse this with free will as an accurate answer to why humans suffer.

So, in other words, you are incapable of meeting the challenge I offered. Just say so next time or don't bother responding at all.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2015 5:34:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 5:25:17 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 4/26/2015 2:33:56 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/26/2015 11:00:59 AM, Double_R wrote:
Good luck with that.

I never understood how anyone can hide behind the defense of free will. If I was going to live 75 or so years on planet earth then spend eternity either living in eternal bliss surrounded by everyone I love or drowning in a lake of fire, and my eternal existence was dependent on my choices here... Then I don't want free will. Why would anyone consider that a gift? That's like giving your 3 year old the free will to decide if they want to cross the street.

I think both you and that troll, are now dishonestly changing the sense of the words involved compared to when they are usually used to answer atheist.

This is the second time you ignored the fact that I provided a definition and a link, which means you are the troll.

Why is there evil in the world, people suffering? the answer given by theist is free will. Why? because the majority of the suffering comes from the choices people make. Either someone is making a choice that adversely effects someone else, or making a choice that adversely effect themselves.

Those who make such choices are in a very tiny minority, whereas the vast majority of folks are abhorred to make those kind of choices.

The ridiculousness of the Atheist is to suggest that choices should have no consequences. not only does that break the law of causality all over the place, but it removes any reason for the choice in the first place.

Sorry, that makes no sense at all. Can you actually address the OP and provide an explanation?

How bizarre is it that Atheist in an attempt to discredit "Free will" they redefine it in such a way that is so different from how it has been understood for centuries. And redefine it to the point where it because nonexistent.

What this thread is really asking but using those words is, why the eternal punishment for a finite series of choices?

but let's not confuse this with free will as an accurate answer to why humans suffer.

So, in other words, you are incapable of meeting the challenge I offered. Just say so next time or don't bother responding at all.

I personally don't know what hell will be or what the punishment is.

I suspect that if you had eternity to accept God, you would never do so. So it is completely justifiable for you to spend eternity without him.
Rosco_P_Coletrain
Posts: 143
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/26/2015 8:05:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 5:21:33 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 4/26/2015 3:26:14 PM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Explain why such a world of free will without such consequences cannot exist? Why must there be harsh consequences to our choices?

Choose to step bare naked off a thousand foot cliff and tell me how that works out.

If you cannot see that consequences are an inseparable part of life you have fed yourself on too much fiction.

Go ahead there superman, jump off that cliff.

Sorry, but we're not talking about a choice to commit suicide, we're talking about choices in life. Can you address the OP?

Wisdom ought to tell you that many of the choices we make in life can be like stepping off a cliff but simply falling a longer distance before we meet up with the consequence of the mistake.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/27/2015 1:04:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
"Free will is the ability of agents to make choices unimpeded. For example, in the religious realm, free will implies that individual will and choices can coexist with an omnipotent, omniscient divinity that raises certain injunctions or moral obligations for man."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

There are harsh consequences to not following the will of God. It's argued that we don't have free will if such consequences exist, and instead we are faced with a threat instead of a choice.


The challenge:

Explain why such a world of free will without such consequences cannot exist? Why must there be harsh consequences to our choices? : :

We all end up dead in this world anyway so what other harsh consequences do we have that is worse than that?
bulproof
Posts: 25,185
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/27/2015 3:23:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 5:34:08 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
I suspect that if you had eternity to accept God, you would never do so. So it is completely justifiable for you to spend eternity without him.
That's funny.
According to the people who claim to talk for your god, that isn't possible.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,185
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/27/2015 3:25:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 8:05:55 PM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/26/2015 5:21:33 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 4/26/2015 3:26:14 PM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Explain why such a world of free will without such consequences cannot exist? Why must there be harsh consequences to our choices?

Choose to step bare naked off a thousand foot cliff and tell me how that works out.

If you cannot see that consequences are an inseparable part of life you have fed yourself on too much fiction.

Go ahead there superman, jump off that cliff.

Sorry, but we're not talking about a choice to commit suicide, we're talking about choices in life. Can you address the OP?

Wisdom ought to tell you that many of the choices we make in life can be like stepping off a cliff but simply falling a longer distance before we meet up with the consequence of the mistake.
Intelligent thought will tell you that such is not wisdom but buffoonery.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Rosco_P_Coletrain
Posts: 143
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/27/2015 4:28:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 3:25:07 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/26/2015 8:05:55 PM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/26/2015 5:21:33 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 4/26/2015 3:26:14 PM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Explain why such a world of free will without such consequences cannot exist? Why must there be harsh consequences to our choices?

Choose to step bare naked off a thousand foot cliff and tell me how that works out.

If you cannot see that consequences are an inseparable part of life you have fed yourself on too much fiction.

Go ahead there superman, jump off that cliff.

Sorry, but we're not talking about a choice to commit suicide, we're talking about choices in life. Can you address the OP?

Wisdom ought to tell you that many of the choices we make in life can be like stepping off a cliff but simply falling a longer distance before we meet up with the consequence of the mistake.
Intelligent thought will tell you that such is not wisdom but buffoonery.

If you believe that, then that is truth to you.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/27/2015 6:19:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 5:13:19 AM, Composer wrote:
freewill: (Noun) The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies

And the results of a choice are it's consequences. whether you like them or not.
bulproof
Posts: 25,185
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/27/2015 6:46:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 4:28:14 AM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/27/2015 3:25:07 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/26/2015 8:05:55 PM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/26/2015 5:21:33 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 4/26/2015 3:26:14 PM, Rosco_P_Coletrain wrote:
At 4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Explain why such a world of free will without such consequences cannot exist? Why must there be harsh consequences to our choices?

Choose to step bare naked off a thousand foot cliff and tell me how that works out.

If you cannot see that consequences are an inseparable part of life you have fed yourself on too much fiction.

Go ahead there superman, jump off that cliff.

Sorry, but we're not talking about a choice to commit suicide, we're talking about choices in life. Can you address the OP?

Wisdom ought to tell you that many of the choices we make in life can be like stepping off a cliff but simply falling a longer distance before we meet up with the consequence of the mistake.
Intelligent thought will tell you that such is not wisdom but buffoonery.

If you believe that, then that is truth to you.
All of the evidence supports my truth, what supports yours?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/27/2015 11:00:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Explain why such a world of free will without such consequences cannot exist? Why must there be harsh consequences to our choices?

Hey DanneJeRusse, it's good to talk to you again. I'm curious though, who told you the Scriptures say man has a "free will"? Free will is impossible. The Scriptures tell us

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13

Free Will would break the chain of Cause and Effect. I believe we discussed this already. However I have more to offer. If Free Will is true, then it would break the Laws of Physics and Cause and Effect. Of course the Atheist could claim that at the Quantum Level, the Laws of Physics do not apply. This is because of the Uncertainty Principle. According to the Uncertainty Principle, particles exhibit a "probabilistic" essence, rather than "deterministic". Because of the Uncertainty Principle, the Atheist can claim Spontaneous Life, Love, the Universe, and Free Will can exist within the Laws of Physics. I believe we talked about this before. You said the Universe came about by Quantum Fluctuations.

Have you ever heard of Particle-Wave Duality? Particle-Wave Duality states that a Particle also exhibits a "wave-like" property, meaning the Particle and its Wave is one. Einstein proposed this theory but it was rejected by Niels Bohr. Niels won the debate and Science has been "uncertain" about everything since that time. Until now. Scientists are reevaluating Particle-Wave Duality and it is proving successful every time. Here's some articles about it.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...

www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2014/09/quantum-physicists-catch-a-pilot-wave/

The Atheist is now in a paradox. They require "proof" that God exists. However, according to their "theory" of the Uncertainty Principle, Science could never "prove" anything. If they decide to accept Particle-Wave Duality, they must return to a "determined"
reality, which calls for a Determiner, who is the Most High. They must also admit that things like Love, Life, and the Universe could not have come about because of Quantum "probability", because there are no "probabilities". We humans have a limited
understanding of the Universe, but God, the Great Cause of it all, has Determined all things to happen exactly how they happen.

"Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that DID he in heaven,
and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." Psalm
135:6

Thank you and God bless you friend.
bulproof
Posts: 25,185
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/27/2015 11:03:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 11:00:22 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Explain why such a world of free will without such consequences cannot exist? Why must there be harsh consequences to our choices?

Hey DanneJeRusse, it's good to talk to you again. I'm curious though, who told you the Scriptures say man has a "free will"? Free will is impossible. The Scriptures tell us

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13

Free Will would break the chain of Cause and Effect. I believe we discussed this already. However I have more to offer. If Free Will is true, then it would break the Laws of Physics and Cause and Effect. Of course the Atheist could claim that at the Quantum Level, the Laws of Physics do not apply. This is because of the Uncertainty Principle. According to the Uncertainty Principle, particles exhibit a "probabilistic" essence, rather than "deterministic". Because of the Uncertainty Principle, the Atheist can claim Spontaneous Life, Love, the Universe, and Free Will can exist within the Laws of Physics. I believe we talked about this before. You said the Universe came about by Quantum Fluctuations.

Have you ever heard of Particle-Wave Duality? Particle-Wave Duality states that a Particle also exhibits a "wave-like" property, meaning the Particle and its Wave is one. Einstein proposed this theory but it was rejected by Niels Bohr. Niels won the debate and Science has been "uncertain" about everything since that time. Until now. Scientists are reevaluating Particle-Wave Duality and it is proving successful every time. Here's some articles about it.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...

www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2014/09/quantum-physicists-catch-a-pilot-wave/

The Atheist is now in a paradox. They require "proof" that God exists. However, according to their "theory" of the Uncertainty Principle, Science could never "prove" anything. If they decide to accept Particle-Wave Duality, they must return to a "determined"
reality, which calls for a Determiner, who is the Most High. They must also admit that things like Love, Life, and the Universe could not have come about because of Quantum "probability", because there are no "probabilities". We humans have a limited
understanding of the Universe, but God, the Great Cause of it all, has Determined all things to happen exactly how they happen.

"Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that DID he in heaven,
and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." Psalm
135:6

Thank you and God bless you friend.
Ya gotta love a godbotherer who claims that god created 99% of souls just so he could torture them for eternity.
Who woulda thunk it?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/27/2015 11:26:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 11:03:33 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/27/2015 11:00:22 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Ya gotta love a godbotherer who claims that god created 99% of souls just so he could torture them for eternity.
Who woulda thunk it?

Hey bulproof thanks for responding. Could you please tell me where I ever said God was going to torture "anyone" for eternity. I believe God is the Most High, He has given us the Knowledge of Good and Evil so that we may be in His Image (since this Knowledge is something God Himself posseses). I would be more than happy to explain this to you and show you many, many Scriptures that confirm this. Here's a few...

"Having made known unto us the MYSTERY of HIS will, according to HIS good pleasure which HE hath purposed in HIMSELF:
That in the dispensation of the FULNESS OF TIMES he might gather together IN ONE ALL things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE OF HIM who worketh ALL things after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" Ephesians 1:9

"I have sworn by myself, the WORD is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me EVERY knee shall bow, EVERY tongue shall swear." Isaiah 45:23

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" John 1:4

"Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the WILL OF HIM that sent me, and to FINISH HIS WORK." John 4:34

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me." John 12:32

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, IT IS FINISHED: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." John 19:30

Thank you good friend and God bless you.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/27/2015 11:31:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 11:03:33 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/27/2015 11:00:22 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Explain why such a world of free will without such consequences cannot exist? Why must there be harsh consequences to our choices?

Hey DanneJeRusse, it's good to talk to you again. I'm curious though, who told you the Scriptures say man has a "free will"? Free will is impossible. The Scriptures tell us

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13

Free Will would break the chain of Cause and Effect. I believe we discussed this already. However I have more to offer. If Free Will is true, then it would break the Laws of Physics and Cause and Effect. Of course the Atheist could claim that at the Quantum Level, the Laws of Physics do not apply. This is because of the Uncertainty Principle. According to the Uncertainty Principle, particles exhibit a "probabilistic" essence, rather than "deterministic". Because of the Uncertainty Principle, the Atheist can claim Spontaneous Life, Love, the Universe, and Free Will can exist within the Laws of Physics. I believe we talked about this before. You said the Universe came about by Quantum Fluctuations.

Have you ever heard of Particle-Wave Duality? Particle-Wave Duality states that a Particle also exhibits a "wave-like" property, meaning the Particle and its Wave is one. Einstein proposed this theory but it was rejected by Niels Bohr. Niels won the debate and Science has been "uncertain" about everything since that time. Until now. Scientists are reevaluating Particle-Wave Duality and it is proving successful every time. Here's some articles about it.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...

www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2014/09/quantum-physicists-catch-a-pilot-wave/

The Atheist is now in a paradox. They require "proof" that God exists. However, according to their "theory" of the Uncertainty Principle, Science could never "prove" anything. If they decide to accept Particle-Wave Duality, they must return to a "determined"
reality, which calls for a Determiner, who is the Most High. They must also admit that things like Love, Life, and the Universe could not have come about because of Quantum "probability", because there are no "probabilities". We humans have a limited
understanding of the Universe, but God, the Great Cause of it all, has Determined all things to happen exactly how they happen.

"Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that DID he in heaven,
and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." Psalm
135:6

Thank you and God bless you friend.
Ya gotta love a godbotherer who claims that god created 99% of souls just so he could torture them for eternity.
Who woulda thunk it? : :

LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God was wise to have an atheist like you challenge these clueless Christians. They actually believe there is a place called hell and that you have to believe in their false deity named Jesus to get to Heaven. LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bulproof
Posts: 25,185
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/27/2015 11:31:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 11:26:15 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/27/2015 11:03:33 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/27/2015 11:00:22 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Ya gotta love a godbotherer who claims that god created 99% of souls just so he could torture them for eternity.
Who woulda thunk it?

Hey bulproof thanks for responding. Could you please tell me where I ever said God was going to torture "anyone" for eternity.
What?
Nah that's what your god says.
In your world what you say isn't worth the breath you use to say it, according to what you wrote.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/27/2015 11:38:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 11:26:15 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/27/2015 11:03:33 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/27/2015 11:00:22 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Ya gotta love a godbotherer who claims that god created 99% of souls just so he could torture them for eternity.
Who woulda thunk it?

Hey bulproof thanks for responding. Could you please tell me where I ever said God was going to torture "anyone" for eternity. I believe God is the Most High, He has given us the Knowledge of Good and Evil so that we may be in His Image (since this Knowledge is something God Himself posseses). I would be more than happy to explain this to you and show you many, many Scriptures that confirm this. Here's a few...

"Having made known unto us the MYSTERY of HIS will, according to HIS good pleasure which HE hath purposed in HIMSELF:
That in the dispensation of the FULNESS OF TIMES he might gather together IN ONE ALL things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE OF HIM who worketh ALL things after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" Ephesians 1:9

"I have sworn by myself, the WORD is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me EVERY knee shall bow, EVERY tongue shall swear." Isaiah 45:23

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" John 1:4

"Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the WILL OF HIM that sent me, and to FINISH HIS WORK." John 4:34

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me." John 12:32

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, IT IS FINISHED: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." John 19:30

Thank you good friend and God bless you. : :

If you understood these scriptures you quoted, you wouldn't need to be worried about bulproof or anything you observe in this make-believe world we're involved in.
bulproof
Posts: 25,185
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/27/2015 11:58:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 11:26:15 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
Hey bulproof thanks for responding. Could you please tell me where I ever said God was going to torture "anyone" for eternity. I believe God is the Most High, He has given us the Knowledge of Good and Evil so that we may be in His Image (since this Knowledge is something God Himself posseses).
Oh btw, according to your god he never GAVE that knowledge to anyone, some chick just took it and that apparently really pissed him off.
Maybe you should read his book.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/27/2015 12:05:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 1:04:07 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 4/26/2015 9:40:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
"Free will is the ability of agents to make choices unimpeded. For example, in the religious realm, free will implies that individual will and choices can coexist with an omnipotent, omniscient divinity that raises certain injunctions or moral obligations for man."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

There are harsh consequences to not following the will of God. It's argued that we don't have free will if such consequences exist, and instead we are faced with a threat instead of a choice.


The challenge:

Explain why such a world of free will without such consequences cannot exist? Why must there be harsh consequences to our choices? : :

We all end up dead in this world anyway so what other harsh consequences do we have that is worse than that?

What is worse than dying is to be humiliated before your death by God and made into a homeless beggar for the rest of your days.

You wrote:"God has removed me from my families, home, automobiles, money, etc. I only have a couple hundred dollars on hand but my only expenses are for food. I spend about $5 a day for food but it's enough to feel comfortable as I preach from early morning until night.