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Can God create a rock that He cannot lift?

RonnyJ
Posts: 4
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4/27/2015 8:13:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
'If God can create a rock that He cannot lift, then God is not omnipotent. If God cannot create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it, then God is not omnipotent. According to this argument, omnipotence is self-contradictory. Therefore, God cannot be omnipotent'

Is anyone able to disprove this paradox's conclusion?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/27/2015 8:26:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 8:13:32 PM, RonnyJ wrote:
'If God can create a rock that He cannot lift, then God is not omnipotent. If God cannot create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it, then God is not omnipotent. According to this argument, omnipotence is self-contradictory. Therefore, God cannot be omnipotent'

Is anyone able to disprove this paradox's conclusion?

Define omnipotent, please.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/27/2015 8:47:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 8:35:44 PM, RonnyJ wrote:
Definition taken from: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...

'(Of a deity) having unlimited power'

Then the answer is yes.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/27/2015 9:00:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 8:13:32 PM, RonnyJ wrote:
'If God can create a rock that He cannot lift, then God is not omnipotent. If God cannot create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it, then God is not omnipotent. According to this argument, omnipotence is self-contradictory. Therefore, God cannot be omnipotent'

Is anyone able to disprove this paradox's conclusion?

Omnipotent defined as (Of a deity) having unlimited power.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...

Unlimited: Not limited or restricted in terms of number, quantity, or extent:

Extent: The particular degree to which something is or is believed to be the case.

Therefore there is no paradox. Such a God would not be limited by logical inference and extent.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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4/27/2015 9:10:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 8:13:32 PM, RonnyJ wrote:
'If God can create a rock that He cannot lift, then God is not omnipotent. If God cannot create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it, then God is not omnipotent. According to this argument, omnipotence is self-contradictory. Therefore, God cannot be omnipotent'

Is anyone able to disprove this paradox's conclusion?

I can. Jesus was God. He fell under the weight of the Cross several times. If the weight of a piece of wood can drop him to the ground then there are many rocks created that he could not life. And yet in the person of God the father there is no rock large enough to avoid being lifted. So God could simultaneously claim that there were rocks too big for him to lift and that he could lift any size rock.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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4/27/2015 9:29:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 8:13:32 PM, RonnyJ wrote:
'If God can create a rock that He cannot lift, then God is not omnipotent. If God cannot create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it, then God is not omnipotent. According to this argument, omnipotence is self-contradictory. Therefore, God cannot be omnipotent'

Is anyone able to disprove this paradox's conclusion?

This is the first time I've ever seen this on here. You must have just discovered it.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/27/2015 9:35:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

such omnipotence is irrational by definition but not by logic.

If god established Laws of logic, then he precedes them and in as much is not limited by them.

I don't argue for such a god because the conclusion would be logically meaningless. But as for an answer to the riddle it more than does so. Omnipotence was defined as the OP as unlimited power to do anything by any extent. This includes doing things that are logical contradictions.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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4/27/2015 9:51:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 9:35:48 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

such omnipotence is irrational by definition but not by logic.

To be rational is to be in accordance with logic.
tejretics
Posts: 6,091
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4/27/2015 9:53:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 8:13:32 PM, RonnyJ wrote:
'If God can create a rock that He cannot lift, then God is not omnipotent. If God cannot create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it, then God is not omnipotent. According to this argument, omnipotence is self-contradictory. Therefore, God cannot be omnipotent'

Is anyone able to disprove this paradox's conclusion?

He can lift it. And yep, he isn't omnipotent.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Rawtheran
Posts: 9
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4/27/2015 9:56:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
In a sense yes God can create a rock so heavy that he could not lift it, and this has been proven with the incarnation of Jesus Christ who mainstream Christian denominations believe to be both God and man. When Jesus came to Earth he temporarily gave up his divinity so that he could die. He was also so weak that he had to carry his own cross.
Rawtheran
Posts: 9
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4/27/2015 9:58:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

Logic of course which is defined by man which means that man is putting their creator in a box
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/27/2015 10:01:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 9:51:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:35:48 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

such omnipotence is irrational by definition but not by logic.

To be rational is to be in accordance with logic.

To define omnipotence in such a way is what I believe to be an irrational concept. But the use the word defined is not innately illogical.

Did you miss the point. Omnipotence defined as being unlimited is then not confined by logical contradictions.

If God is the Author of Logic, then God can rewrite the script how god wants.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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4/27/2015 10:03:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 9:58:04 PM, Rawtheran wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

Logic of course which is defined by man which means that man is putting their creator in a box

Prove he exists, then I'll call him my creator.

Wait, you need logic to do that which you don't seem to accept, so never mind. Go preach elsewhere.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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4/27/2015 10:11:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 10:01:48 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:51:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:35:48 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

such omnipotence is irrational by definition but not by logic.

To be rational is to be in accordance with logic.

To define omnipotence in such a way is what I believe to be an irrational concept. But the use the word defined is not innately illogical.

Did you miss the point. Omnipotence defined as being unlimited is then not confined by logical contradictions.

If God is the Author of Logic, then God can rewrite the script how god wants.

If logic was authored then it is arbitrary and thus has no authority, therefore we have no reason to accept anything we conclude by using it, including this very conclusion, including that conclusion, including....

Oh well, I guess we can all go home now.
Rawtheran
Posts: 9
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4/27/2015 10:11:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 10:03:14 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:58:04 PM, Rawtheran wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

Logic of course which is defined by man which means that man is putting their creator in a box

Prove he exists, then I'll call him my creator.

Wait, you need logic to do that which you don't seem to accept, so never mind. Go preach elsewhere.

Accepting logic such as the basic human rights, and moral conscious choices that every sane human has is not the issue. The issue is people who think they are so smart try to establish their own logic on things that they have no understanding of. Logic like religion is also flawed. If you want to know if God exists then I would encourage you to seek him out its worth your while, and this is coming from a former agnostic mind you.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/27/2015 10:15:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 10:11:23 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:01:48 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:51:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:35:48 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

such omnipotence is irrational by definition but not by logic.

To be rational is to be in accordance with logic.

To define omnipotence in such a way is what I believe to be an irrational concept. But the use the word defined is not innately illogical.

Did you miss the point. Omnipotence defined as being unlimited is then not confined by logical contradictions.

If God is the Author of Logic, then God can rewrite the script how god wants.

If logic was authored then it is arbitrary and thus has no authority, therefore we have no reason to accept anything we conclude by using it, including this very conclusion, including that conclusion, including....

Oh well, I guess we can all go home now.

You don't need God to conclude all is vanity of vanities.

Epistemological Nihilism does just as well without God.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/27/2015 10:18:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 10:11:23 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:01:48 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:51:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:35:48 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

such omnipotence is irrational by definition but not by logic.

To be rational is to be in accordance with logic.

To define omnipotence in such a way is what I believe to be an irrational concept. But the use the word defined is not innately illogical.

Did you miss the point. Omnipotence defined as being unlimited is then not confined by logical contradictions.

If God is the Author of Logic, then God can rewrite the script how god wants.

If logic was authored then it is arbitrary and thus has no authority, therefore we have no reason to accept anything we conclude by using it, including this very conclusion, including that conclusion, including....

Oh well, I guess we can all go home now.

If god is the Author then the authority by which logic is established is God.

Is this that Atheist illogic again? Attempting to connect the result of a creative work as having no power? lol another leap in atheist illogic.

Laws of the State are penned by officials, they are authored. Do you claim that your state laws have no authority?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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4/27/2015 10:20:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 10:11:42 PM, Rawtheran wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:03:14 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:58:04 PM, Rawtheran wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

Logic of course which is defined by man which means that man is putting their creator in a box

Prove he exists, then I'll call him my creator.

Wait, you need logic to do that which you don't seem to accept, so never mind. Go preach elsewhere.

Accepting logic such as the basic human rights, and moral conscious choices that every sane human has is not the issue. The issue is people who think they are so smart try to establish their own logic on things that they have no understanding of. Logic like religion is also flawed. If you want to know if God exists then I would encourage you to seek him out its worth your while, and this is coming from a former agnostic mind you.

You don't seem to have any understanding of what logic is. Please start by googling the laws of logic, aka the laws of thought.
Rawtheran
Posts: 9
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4/27/2015 10:24:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 10:20:24 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:11:42 PM, Rawtheran wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:03:14 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:58:04 PM, Rawtheran wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

Logic of course which is defined by man which means that man is putting their creator in a box

Prove he exists, then I'll call him my creator.

Wait, you need logic to do that which you don't seem to accept, so never mind. Go preach elsewhere.

Accepting logic such as the basic human rights, and moral conscious choices that every sane human has is not the issue. The issue is people who think they are so smart try to establish their own logic on things that they have no understanding of. Logic like religion is also flawed. If you want to know if God exists then I would encourage you to seek him out its worth your while, and this is coming from a former agnostic mind you.

You don't seem to have any understanding of what logic is. Please start by googling the laws of logic, aka the laws of thought.

'Logic is a poor guide compared with custom."

- Winston Churchill
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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4/27/2015 10:25:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 10:18:53 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:11:23 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:01:48 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:51:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:35:48 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

such omnipotence is irrational by definition but not by logic.

To be rational is to be in accordance with logic.

To define omnipotence in such a way is what I believe to be an irrational concept. But the use the word defined is not innately illogical.

Did you miss the point. Omnipotence defined as being unlimited is then not confined by logical contradictions.

If God is the Author of Logic, then God can rewrite the script how god wants.

If logic was authored then it is arbitrary and thus has no authority, therefore we have no reason to accept anything we conclude by using it, including this very conclusion, including that conclusion, including....

Oh well, I guess we can all go home now.

If god is the Author then the authority by which logic is established is God.

That sounds like logic, which was authored and therefore arbitrary.

Is this that Atheist illogic again? Attempting to connect the result of a creative work as having no power? lol another leap in atheist illogic.

I am not the one asserting a scenario where logic itself was authored arbitrarily, then using it to draw authoritative conclusions.

Laws of the State are penned by officials, they are authored. Do you claim that your state laws have no authority?

Fallacy of equivocation. Just because the state can kick my @ss for not following their laws does not make them right.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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4/27/2015 10:27:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 10:24:15 PM, Rawtheran wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:20:24 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:11:42 PM, Rawtheran wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:03:14 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:58:04 PM, Rawtheran wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

Logic of course which is defined by man which means that man is putting their creator in a box

Prove he exists, then I'll call him my creator.

Wait, you need logic to do that which you don't seem to accept, so never mind. Go preach elsewhere.

Accepting logic such as the basic human rights, and moral conscious choices that every sane human has is not the issue. The issue is people who think they are so smart try to establish their own logic on things that they have no understanding of. Logic like religion is also flawed. If you want to know if God exists then I would encourage you to seek him out its worth your while, and this is coming from a former agnostic mind you.

You don't seem to have any understanding of what logic is. Please start by googling the laws of logic, aka the laws of thought.

'Logic is a poor guide compared with custom."

- Winston Churchill

Thanks for demonstrating that you are by definition, irrational. Thus I have no reason to engage with you. Good night.

https://www.google.com...
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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4/27/2015 10:30:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 8:13:32 PM, RonnyJ wrote:
'If God can create a rock that He cannot lift, then God is not omnipotent. If God cannot create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it, then God is not omnipotent. According to this argument, omnipotence is self-contradictory. Therefore, God cannot be omnipotent'

Is anyone able to disprove this paradox's conclusion? : :

Since rocks and all other objects in this world are only illusions that aren't real, our Creator can move any illusions that He planned to move in His program called Eternal Life. He does a pretty good job of convincing us He can move rocks during earthquakes that shoot several hundred feet into the air.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/27/2015 10:42:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 10:25:53 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:18:53 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:11:23 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:01:48 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:51:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:35:48 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

such omnipotence is irrational by definition but not by logic.

To be rational is to be in accordance with logic.

To define omnipotence in such a way is what I believe to be an irrational concept. But the use the word defined is not innately illogical.

Did you miss the point. Omnipotence defined as being unlimited is then not confined by logical contradictions.

If God is the Author of Logic, then God can rewrite the script how god wants.

If logic was authored then it is arbitrary and thus has no authority, therefore we have no reason to accept anything we conclude by using it, including this very conclusion, including that conclusion, including....

Oh well, I guess we can all go home now.

If god is the Author then the authority by which logic is established is God.

That sounds like logic, which was authored and therefore arbitrary.

Arbitrary is defined as based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

So God authored Logic. Arbitrary is not an accurate adjective.


Is this that Atheist illogic again? Attempting to connect the result of a creative work as having no power? lol another leap in atheist illogic.

I am not the one asserting a scenario where logic itself was authored arbitrarily, then using it to draw authoritative conclusions.

Your the one asserting it is arbitrary, and just for the sake of argument what makes arbitrary necessarily mean non-authoritative? (rhetorical question, just something to think about).

but we should clarify god authored the logic and rules by which reality functions. These could be very different than the rules humans have articulated as "Logic". i would say we are mostly right though. But all we know of logic comes from reality, and all we know of reality comes form logically discerning it. Making it a vanity of vanities, or all knowledge rejected at some point.


Laws of the State are penned by officials, they are authored. Do you claim that your state laws have no authority?

Fallacy of equivocation. Just because the state can kick my @ss for not following their laws does not make them right.

Authority has nothing to do with right. It's a word denoting power.

If God, an all powerful being authored Logic, then the power, or extent to which logic governs reality would get it's authority from God (an all powerful being).
Rawtheran
Posts: 9
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4/27/2015 10:43:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 10:27:43 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:24:15 PM, Rawtheran wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:20:24 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:11:42 PM, Rawtheran wrote:
At 4/27/2015 10:03:14 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:58:04 PM, Rawtheran wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

Logic of course which is defined by man which means that man is putting their creator in a box

Prove he exists, then I'll call him my creator.

Wait, you need logic to do that which you don't seem to accept, so never mind. Go preach elsewhere.

Accepting logic such as the basic human rights, and moral conscious choices that every sane human has is not the issue. The issue is people who think they are so smart try to establish their own logic on things that they have no understanding of. Logic like religion is also flawed. If you want to know if God exists then I would encourage you to seek him out its worth your while, and this is coming from a former agnostic mind you.

You don't seem to have any understanding of what logic is. Please start by googling the laws of logic, aka the laws of thought.

'Logic is a poor guide compared with custom."

- Winston Churchill

Thanks for demonstrating that you are by definition, irrational. Thus I have no reason to engage with you. Good night.

https://www.google.com...

Good night my friend you are in my prayers
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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4/28/2015 3:12:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 9:58:04 PM, Rawtheran wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:08:10 PM, Double_R wrote:
Most theists accept that God's power is limited to that which is consistent with the laws of logic. If they don't then don't even bother. Anyone whose beliefs do not fall in line with the laws of logic is irrational by definition.

Logic of course which is defined by man which means that man is putting their creator in a box
They created him, surely that is their right?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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4/28/2015 3:13:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 9:29:48 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 4/27/2015 8:13:32 PM, RonnyJ wrote:
'If God can create a rock that He cannot lift, then God is not omnipotent. If God cannot create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it, then God is not omnipotent. According to this argument, omnipotence is self-contradictory. Therefore, God cannot be omnipotent'

Is anyone able to disprove this paradox's conclusion?

This is the first time I've ever seen this on here. You must have just discovered it.

Clap Clap Clap . I dips me lid Annie. Huzzah
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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4/28/2015 3:17:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
God can't even create a rock that I can't lift, since it's all illusion.
Isn't that right bog?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Otokage
Posts: 2,351
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4/28/2015 3:33:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/27/2015 8:13:32 PM, RonnyJ wrote:
'If God can create a rock that He cannot lift, then God is not omnipotent. If God cannot create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it, then God is not omnipotent. According to this argument, omnipotence is self-contradictory. Therefore, God cannot be omnipotent'

Is anyone able to disprove this paradox's conclusion?

It is impossible to disprove the paradox if you consider God omnipotent in the traditional sense (allpowerful). However, if you consider God to be omnipotent in a figurative sense, meaning he is not literaly omnipotent but just very powerful, there would be no shame in accepting he can not commit some paradoxical acts.