Total Posts:63|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Why do people ask why atheists bother arguing

IceCreamforBreakfast
Posts: 51
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 9:12:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Since when has belief/agreement with an idea ever been a driving force to "argue passionately" against said idea?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 1:49:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 9:12:10 AM, IceCreamforBreakfast wrote:
Since when has belief/agreement with an idea ever been a driving force to "argue passionately" against said idea?

Because we don't understand why most do, since most have no interest in religion.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 3:53:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 1:49:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
we don't understand why most do, since most have no interest in religion.

In the US, atheists are better informed about religion than most Christians, indicating that atheists aren't adopting positions of apathy or indifference.

Why aren't they?

One reason is that religious paternalism interferes with everyone, regardless of belief. Another is that the religious have a long tradition of hating, vilifying and persecuting atheists.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 6:26:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

One reason is that religious paternalism interferes with everyone, regardless of belief. Another is that the religious have a long tradition of hating, vilifying and persecuting atheists.

Exactly. It permeates life if we want it to or not.
joetheripper117
Posts: 284
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 7:00:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 1:49:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/28/2015 9:12:10 AM, IceCreamforBreakfast wrote:
Since when has belief/agreement with an idea ever been a driving force to "argue passionately" against said idea?

Because we don't understand why most do, since most have no interest in religion.
The reason I find myself debating the subject is that, living in the USA, many politicians and common people want to change policy based on their religions (usually the Christian dogma), and since policy affects everyone, I think that it is fair to take a strong stance against something that could be affecting the way that your nation is governed. I hope I helped answer the question.
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 7:21:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 3:53:47 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/28/2015 1:49:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
we don't understand why most do, since most have no interest in religion.

In the US, atheists are better informed about religion than most Christians,

The Pew report is here. http://www.pewforum.org...

I suggest every Theist read it and understand that this generalization that Atheist know more about religion is a gross lie.

"This survey and previous Pew Forum studies have shown that Jews and atheists/agnostics have high levels of educational attainment on average, which partially explains their performance on the religious knowledge survey. However, even after controlling for levels of education and other key demographic traits (race, age, gender and region), significant differences in religious knowledge persist among adherents of various faith traditions. Atheists/agnostics, Jews and Mormons still have the highest levels of religious knowledge, followed by evangelical Protestants, then those whose religion is nothing in particular, mainline Protestants and Catholics. Atheists/agnostics and Jews stand out for high levels of knowledge about world religions other than Christianity, though they also score at or above the national average on questions about the Bible and Christianity. Holding demographic factors constant, evangelical Protestants outperform most groups (with the exceptions of Mormons and atheists/agnostics) on questions about the Bible and Christianity, but evangelicals fare less well compared with other groups on questions about world religions such as Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaism. Mormons are the highest-scoring group on questions about the Bible."

indicating that atheists aren't adopting positions of apathy or indifference.

Why aren't they?

Did they have any to begin with?


One reason is that religious paternalism interferes with everyone, regardless of belief. Another is that the religious have a long tradition of hating, vilifying and persecuting atheists.

Sure, anything and everything is possible.. (except god right?).
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 7:56:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 7:21:24 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
[Confusion, ad-hominems and strawmen.]
Sorry, Mhykiel. I failed to find anything salient to respond to.

Thank you however, for illustrating the intense, ad-hoc character of atheist vilification.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 8:00:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 7:56:51 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/28/2015 7:21:24 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
[Confusion, ad-hominems and strawmen.]
Sorry, Mhykiel. I failed to find anything salient to respond to.

Thank you however, for illustrating the intense, ad-hoc character of atheist vilification.

you said " atheists are better informed about religion than most Christians"

Could you substantiate that claim? Most being above 50% and christian being "accept Jesus Christ as Savior".
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 8:05:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 8:00:39 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/28/2015 7:56:51 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
you said " atheists are better informed about religion than most Christians"
Could you substantiate that claim? Most being above 50% and christian being "accept Jesus Christ as Savior".

Yes. Please read your own quote.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 8:09:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 8:05:09 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/28/2015 8:00:39 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/28/2015 7:56:51 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
you said " atheists are better informed about religion than most Christians"
Could you substantiate that claim? Most being above 50% and christian being "accept Jesus Christ as Savior".

Yes. Please read your own quote.

No you provide the evidence. Atheist (all atheist) are better informed than (>) most (51%) Christians.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 8:14:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 8:09:01 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/28/2015 8:05:09 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
No you provide the evidence. Atheist (all atheist) are better informed than (>) most (51%) Christians.
That is not what I said.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 8:17:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 8:14:30 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/28/2015 8:09:01 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/28/2015 8:05:09 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
No you provide the evidence. Atheist (all atheist) are better informed than (>) most (51%) Christians.
That is not what I said.

"In the US, atheists are better informed about religion than most Christians" - RuvDraba
http://www.debate.org...

I think this is Atheist propaganda and lies. Substantiate it please.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 8:22:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 8:17:22 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/28/2015 8:14:30 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/28/2015 8:09:01 PM, Mhykiel wrote:

"In the US, atheists are better informed about religion than most Christians" - RuvDraba
http://www.debate.org...
I think this is Atheist propaganda and lies. Substantiate it please.
I have already responded to this request, Mhykiel. You quoted at length exactly what this claim means, from the very report that substantiates it.

Feel free to construe something eccentric from the report if you will, but kindly do not misinterpret my words for the sake of an irrational strawman attack.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 8:23:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 8:22:02 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/28/2015 8:17:22 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/28/2015 8:14:30 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/28/2015 8:09:01 PM, Mhykiel wrote:

"In the US, atheists are better informed about religion than most Christians" - RuvDraba
http://www.debate.org...
I think this is Atheist propaganda and lies. Substantiate it please.
I have already responded to this request, Mhykiel. You quoted at length exactly what this claim means, from the very report that substantiates it.

Feel free to construe something eccentric from the report if you will, but kindly do not misinterpret my words for the sake of an irrational strawman attack.

How do you get that atheist are better informed about religion than most Christians from that very same pew report?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 8:30:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 8:23:22 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/28/2015 8:22:02 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
How do you get that atheist are better informed about religion than most Christians from that very same pew report?

The same way NPR did: http://www.npr.org...
Or Time Magazine: http://newsfeed.time.com...
Or NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com...
Or Discovery: http://www.nytimes.com...
Or the Webby-nominated Religion Dispatches from USC: http://religiondispatches.org...

I'm sorry that I can't help you with this further, Mhykiel. I have no advice to offer, except that you should try to read more, think more, question yourself more, and hate less.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 8:48:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 8:30:18 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/28/2015 8:23:22 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/28/2015 8:22:02 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
How do you get that atheist are better informed about religion than most Christians from that very same pew report?

The same way NPR did: http://www.npr.org...
Or Time Magazine: http://newsfeed.time.com...
Or NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com...
Or Discovery: http://www.nytimes.com...
Or the Webby-nominated Religion Dispatches from USC: http://religiondispatches.org...

I'm sorry that I can't help you with this further, Mhykiel. I have no advice to offer, except that you should try to read more, think more, question yourself more, and hate less.

What was the standard deviation. the difference between correct answers out of 32 for Jews and Atheist was .4

Do these numbers mean an Atheist knows more about religion than 51% of the christian population? that the 4% of Atheist know more than about religion than the combined numbers of christian denominations?

It doesn't and you know so. great exaggeration and gross interpretation.

How about you think for yourself and settle down on the zealous hatred of people and their freedom of religious practice.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 10:00:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 8:48:10 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/28/2015 8:30:18 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
What was the standard deviation.
For information in the methodology appendix on p7, you can find the margin of sampling errors, which are usually defined as half the 95% confidence interval. This should link to the SD in the obvious way: http://www.pewforum.org...

Unsurprisingly, Protestants had a tighter spread than atheists/agnostics, by about 5%. But a difference of 5% between their errors translates to only 1.6 correct answers, out of a median difference of 3.3. So the argument for 'most' still stands.

Do these numbers mean an Atheist knows more about religion than 51% of the Christian population?
Apparently, but that wasn't my intention in the language anyway. My use of 'Most' in this case was intended to soften any hurt among Christian members, and defuse the inevitable 'Not all Christians' protest. So you're currently criticising me for trying to be gentle and diplomatic toward people who don't think as I do. Nice work!

But statistical pedantry aside, it's pretty obvious from your tone: you're quibbling because you hate the basic result.

So if you want to contest it, why don't you do so with your usual shameless bias?

Why don't you shift the atheists to the left of the atheist/agnostic sample, and push the agnostics all to the right, ignore everyone but White Evangelicals, and then argue that test question bias was good for an extra couple of marks?

If you're going to fudge an argument, Mhykiel, fudge it big. :p

How about you think for yourself and settle down on the zealous hatred of people and their freedom of religious practice.
I don't interfere with personal freedoms. It's the pompous, greedy, evil accumulation of hegemonistic privilege I oppose.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 10:39:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 10:00:25 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/28/2015 8:48:10 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/28/2015 8:30:18 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
What was the standard deviation.
For information in the methodology appendix on p7, you can find the margin of sampling errors, which are usually defined as half the 95% confidence interval. This should link to the SD in the obvious way: http://www.pewforum.org...

Unsurprisingly, Protestants had a tighter spread than atheists/agnostics, by about 5%. But a difference of 5% between their errors translates to only 1.6 correct answers, out of a median difference of 3.3. So the argument for 'most' still stands.

Do these numbers mean an Atheist knows more about religion than 51% of the Christian population?
Apparently, but that wasn't my intention in the language anyway. My use of 'Most' in this case was intended to soften any hurt among Christian members, and defuse the inevitable 'Not all Christians' protest. So you're currently criticising me for trying to be gentle and diplomatic toward people who don't think as I do. Nice work!

But statistical pedantry aside, it's pretty obvious from your tone: you're quibbling because you hate the basic result.

So if you want to contest it, why don't you do so with your usual shameless bias?

Why don't you shift the atheists to the left of the atheist/agnostic sample, and push the agnostics all to the right, ignore everyone but White Evangelicals, and then argue that test question bias was good for an extra couple of marks?

If you're going to fudge an argument, Mhykiel, fudge it big. :p

The question about the Jewish sabbath day is wrong. The correct answer is listed as Saturday, but it begins sun down on Friday. Maybe i could find other errors.


How about you think for yourself and settle down on the zealous hatred of people and their freedom of religious practice.
I don't interfere with personal freedoms. It's the pompous, greedy, evil accumulation of hegemonistic privilege I oppose.

Mormons and White Evangelicals answered on average more answers correctly regarding knowledge of the bible and knowledge about Christianity than Atheist/Agnostics.

Evangelicals and Jews answered questions about Judaism more often correct than Atheist/Agnostics.

Jews were number 1 in correct answers to other World Religions, Atheist/Agnostics 2nd.

Factors of scoring higher were education level, taking a class on religion in college, white, male, never had children, Republican, 30-64 age, Liberal,

Does being white, male, college educated make a person atheist?

All this hoopla about Atheist knowing religions better is from where the researchers evaluate belief in God to correct answers. 18.7 to 16. And state "This is consistent with the survey"s finding that people who describe themselves (in response to a separate question) as atheists and agnostics score better overall than people affiliated with many religious faiths."

They using a weighting mechanism to evaluate across the board in which case protestants are .9 above average, Mormon 1.9, Jewish 2.3 and Atheist/Agnostics 2.9

I'll go ahead concede Atheist/Agnostics won this by 1 question on a 32 question test.

Thanks for substantiating Atheist catch phrases.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/28/2015 11:00:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 10:39:19 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
I'll go ahead concede Atheist/Agnostics won this by 1 question on a 32 question test.
I don't think that matters terribly much, and there's no suggestion that those who study theology the most end up as atheists.

The reason this matters is that it refutes the claim that atheists are rejecting religion from ignorance. They're clearly aware of and interested in religious claims, and aren't ignoring religion so much as rejecting it after due consideration. Moreover, they're not simply rebelling against the dominant faith of their culture: they're more aware of other religions than you find among many of the devout.

This is important, because a lot of the hatred atheists see arises (it appears) from religious outrage over the idea that atheists would rather have no spiritual comfort than the comfort offered by their faith.

The religious frequently attribute the snub to willful ignorance of their theology.

For the world religions at least, they're clearly wrong.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/29/2015 12:06:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 7:21:24 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/28/2015 3:53:47 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/28/2015 1:49:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
we don't understand why most do, since most have no interest in religion.

In the US, atheists are better informed about religion than most Christians,

The Pew report is here. http://www.pewforum.org...

I suggest every Theist read it and understand that this generalization that Atheist know more about religion is a gross lie.

"This survey and previous Pew Forum studies have shown that Jews and atheists/agnostics have high levels of educational attainment on average, which partially explains their performance on the religious knowledge survey. However, even after controlling for levels of education and other key demographic traits (race, age, gender and region), significant differences in religious knowledge persist among adherents of various faith traditions. Atheists/agnostics, Jews and Mormons still have the highest levels of religious knowledge, followed by evangelical Protestants, then those whose religion is nothing in particular, mainline Protestants and Catholics. Atheists/agnostics and Jews stand out for high levels of knowledge about world religions other than Christianity, though they also score at or above the national average on questions about the Bible and Christianity. Holding demographic factors constant, evangelical Protestants outperform most groups (with the exceptions of Mormons and atheists/agnostics) on questions about the Bible and Christianity, but evangelicals fare less well compared with other groups on questions about world religions such as Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaism. Mormons are the highest-scoring group on questions about the Bible."

indicating that atheists aren't adopting positions of apathy or indifference.

Why aren't they?

Did they have any to begin with?


One reason is that religious paternalism interferes with everyone, regardless of belief. Another is that the religious have a long tradition of hating, vilifying and persecuting atheists.

Sure, anything and everything is possible.. (except god right?).

Wow. You don't understand the paragraph you just quoted, do you? Although, I would say it's inconclusive because that statistics are so poorly reported.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/29/2015 12:06:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 7:21:24 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/28/2015 3:53:47 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/28/2015 1:49:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
we don't understand why most do, since most have no interest in religion.

In the US, atheists are better informed about religion than most Christians,

The Pew report is here. http://www.pewforum.org...

I suggest every Theist read it and understand that this generalization that Atheist know more about religion is a gross lie.

"This survey and previous Pew Forum studies have shown that Jews and atheists/agnostics have high levels of educational attainment on average, which partially explains their performance on the religious knowledge survey. However, even after controlling for levels of education and other key demographic traits (race, age, gender and region), significant differences in religious knowledge persist among adherents of various faith traditions. Atheists/agnostics, Jews and Mormons still have the highest levels of religious knowledge, followed by evangelical Protestants, then those whose religion is nothing in particular, mainline Protestants and Catholics. Atheists/agnostics and Jews stand out for high levels of knowledge about world religions other than Christianity, though they also score at or above the national average on questions about the Bible and Christianity. Holding demographic factors constant, evangelical Protestants outperform most groups (with the exceptions of Mormons and atheists/agnostics) on questions about the Bible and Christianity, but evangelicals fare less well compared with other groups on questions about world religions such as Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaism. Mormons are the highest-scoring group on questions about the Bible."

indicating that atheists aren't adopting positions of apathy or indifference.

Why aren't they?

Did they have any to begin with?


One reason is that religious paternalism interferes with everyone, regardless of belief. Another is that the religious have a long tradition of hating, vilifying and persecuting atheists.

Sure, anything and everything is possible.. (except god right?).

Wow. You don't understand the paragraph you just quoted, do you? Although, I would say it's inconclusive because that statistics are so poorly reported.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/29/2015 12:22:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 12:06:26 AM, UndeniableReality wrote:
I would say it's inconclusive because that statistics are so poorly reported.

Turns out there's a 'margin of sampling error' that if I understand correctly, is doing the job of a 95% confidence interval, except it's expressed as a percentage of what I believe is the maximum total score: [http://www.pewforum.org...]

A bit murky, but that's the sense I make of it.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/29/2015 2:59:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 12:22:27 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/29/2015 12:06:26 AM, UndeniableReality wrote:
I would say it's inconclusive because that statistics are so poorly reported.
Turns out there's a 'margin of sampling error' that if I understand correctly, is doing the job of a 95% confidence interval, except it's expressed as a percentage of what I believe is the maximum total score: [http://www.pewforum.org...]

I figured the question would come up again, so I took some time to chase this down further.

On further reading, I've learned that margin of sampling error seems to be a function of standard deviation and sample size, and the percentage is not a proportion of maximum but of average (they don't stipulate whether median or mean.) As the sample size increases, margin of sampling error decreases, but it increases with variability too, and we can see both effects in their methodology data.

I've never had to use margin of sampling error (SE) before, but several stats sites attest that there's a relationship between it and standard deviation (SD), which for a sample sized n at the 95% confidence interval is:

SD = SE * sqrt(n) / 1.96

(Yup -- don't ask.)

When you crunch it, you get SD numbers in the range of 9-13. Assuming my calculations are correct, I get the table as at: http://i142.photobucket.com...

The variability on all the scores seems a bit sad to me. Initially I thought it was my calculation error, but it just could be poor religious education with a curve skewed left, and that's supported by the anecdotes in their report too.

I'm guessing they used median rather than mean, both because they should and because of how badly the variability might otherwise skew things.

Anyway, that's best efforts. Hope it helps.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/29/2015 6:52:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/28/2015 7:00:15 PM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 4/28/2015 1:49:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 4/28/2015 9:12:10 AM, IceCreamforBreakfast wrote:
Since when has belief/agreement with an idea ever been a driving force to "argue passionately" against said idea?

Because we don't understand why most do, since most have no interest in religion.
The reason I find myself debating the subject is that, living in the USA, many politicians and common people want to change policy based on their religions (usually the Christian dogma), and since policy affects everyone, I think that it is fair to take a strong stance against something that could be affecting the way that your nation is governed. I hope I helped answer the question.

But that only means you should be against the policies, not the religion.
Floid
Posts: 751
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/29/2015 7:41:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 6:52:32 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
But that only means you should be against the policies, not the religion.

I would have thought this self-evident but here it goes:

Policies are set by politicians. Politicians are elected by the people. If the people want religious policies in Government they elect politicians who will institute those policies.

So in order to prevent religious policies you must decrease the number of politicians willing to implement religious policies. To decrease the number of politicians willing to implement religious policies you must decrease the number of people who want religious policies from Government (generally termed religious fundamentalist).

Thus the reason atheist both arguing about religion...
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/29/2015 8:24:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 7:41:43 AM, Floid wrote:
At 4/29/2015 6:52:32 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
But that only means you should be against the policies, not the religion.

I would have thought this self-evident but here it goes:

Policies are set by politicians. Politicians are elected by the people. If the people want religious policies in Government they elect politicians who will institute those policies.

So in order to prevent religious policies you must decrease the number of politicians willing to implement religious policies. To decrease the number of politicians willing to implement religious policies you must decrease the number of people who want religious policies from Government (generally termed religious fundamentalist).

Thus the reason atheist both arguing about religion...

And there was me stupidly thinking that America was "The Land of the Free", lol.

Surely in a democratic society it is the majority who decide, not the minority? That is no reason for attacking religion per se.

Maybe you should look at the one religion which will never interfere in politics, not even voting. JW, because they obey Christ's commands not to.

Not all religion is the same.
Floid
Posts: 751
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/29/2015 8:55:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 8:24:05 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
And there was me stupidly thinking that America was "The Land of the Free", lol.

In the land of the free group A has the right to attempt to persuade group B into thinking/acting different.

Surely in a democratic society it is the majority who decide, not the minority? That is no reason for attacking religion per se.

See above. I am not sure you understand the idea of democracy or freedom.

Maybe you should look at the one religion which will never interfere in politics, not even voting. JW, because they obey Christ's commands not to.

Not all religion is the same.

Right.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/29/2015 9:06:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 8:55:25 AM, Floid wrote:
At 4/29/2015 8:24:05 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
And there was me stupidly thinking that America was "The Land of the Free", lol.

In the land of the free group A has the right to attempt to persuade group B into thinking/acting different.

Perfectly true, but group B also has the right to their beliefs without the disruption of constant harassment from others who want them to change for their own selfish reasons.

You are attempting to remove that freedom.

And no, I don;t believe anyone is free, at least not the vast majority. Only the truth can set you free, but most don't want it.



Surely in a democratic society it is the majority who decide, not the minority? That is no reason for attacking religion per se.

See above. I am not sure you understand the idea of democracy or freedom.

Oh I know what freedom is, real freedom that is, but I can guarantee you don't.

I accept that I am not completely au fait with democracy, though I can very easily see it's many flaws.



Maybe you should look at the one religion which will never interfere in politics, not even voting. JW, because they obey Christ's commands not to.

Not all religion is the same.

Right.

Yes.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/29/2015 10:13:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 2:59:40 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/29/2015 12:22:27 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/29/2015 12:06:26 AM, UndeniableReality wrote:
I would say it's inconclusive because that statistics are so poorly reported.
Turns out there's a 'margin of sampling error' that if I understand correctly, is doing the job of a 95% confidence interval, except it's expressed as a percentage of what I believe is the maximum total score: [http://www.pewforum.org...]

I figured the question would come up again, so I took some time to chase this down further.

On further reading, I've learned that margin of sampling error seems to be a function of standard deviation and sample size, and the percentage is not a proportion of maximum but of average (they don't stipulate whether median or mean.) As the sample size increases, margin of sampling error decreases, but it increases with variability too, and we can see both effects in their methodology data.

I've never had to use margin of sampling error (SE) before, but several stats sites attest that there's a relationship between it and standard deviation (SD), which for a sample sized n at the 95% confidence interval is:

SD = SE * sqrt(n) / 1.96

(Yup -- don't ask.)

When you crunch it, you get SD numbers in the range of 9-13. Assuming my calculations are correct, I get the table as at: http://i142.photobucket.com...

The variability on all the scores seems a bit sad to me. Initially I thought it was my calculation error, but it just could be poor religious education with a curve skewed left, and that's supported by the anecdotes in their report too.

I'm guessing they used median rather than mean, both because they should and because of how badly the variability might otherwise skew things.

Anyway, that's best efforts. Hope it helps.

Yeah, there doesn't seem to be enough statistics reported to say much about it. It doesn't mention how the data are distributed for example, and I don't understand why they don't simply report SD or SE, which is usually a standard.

Did you compute SE from margin of sampling error using sqrt{p(1-p)/n}?

Thee interesting thing is that if we use your values for SD, you actually get statistically significant differences, even for atheist vs Jewish, using a two-tailed two-sample T-test (T = 2.679).
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/29/2015 10:14:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 12:22:27 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/29/2015 12:06:26 AM, UndeniableReality wrote:
I would say it's inconclusive because that statistics are so poorly reported.

Turns out there's a 'margin of sampling error' that if I understand correctly, is doing the job of a 95% confidence interval, except it's expressed as a percentage of what I believe is the maximum total score: [http://www.pewforum.org...]

A bit murky, but that's the sense I make of it.

Good find, by the way. It's a strange way to report margin of error though. I'm very surprised they didn't provide an SD or SE on every statistic they reported.