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Omniscience

Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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8/3/2010 4:28:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
If two omniscient people played chess, what would happen? Would either of them win? I just thought of this, and I haven't been able to find a conclusive answer. Personally, I think every game would end in a stalemate.
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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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8/3/2010 4:33:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The entire Universe would implode.
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mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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8/3/2010 4:35:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Well, it would be similar to what happens when two omniscient (or practically omniscient) people play tic-tac-toe: the same result will occur every time. Either white will always win, black will always win, or stalemate every time.
tvellalott
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8/3/2010 4:40:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Now that I think about it, I don't think two Omniscient beings could exist at the same time.
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/3/2010 4:41:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/3/2010 4:40:12 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Now that I think about it, I don't think two Omniscient beings could exist at the same time.

why couldn't they?
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mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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8/3/2010 4:44:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/3/2010 4:40:12 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Now that I think about it, I don't think two Omniscient beings could exist at the same time.

Explain?
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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8/3/2010 6:04:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Well, first of all, I don't think anything could be omniscient(because it's retarded), but for this argument, lets pretend one being is capable of being omniscient.

The reason I don't think two omniscient beings could simultaniously exist, is for exactly the reason that this chess scenario cannot be answered. If they both know everything, then they would know how to fool/trick each other. If they are capable of being fooled or tricked they would cease to be omniscient.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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8/3/2010 6:20:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/3/2010 6:04:59 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Well, first of all, I don't think anything could be omniscient(because it's retarded), but for this argument, lets pretend one being is capable of being omniscient.

The reason I don't think two omniscient beings could simultaniously exist, is for exactly the reason that this chess scenario cannot be answered. If they both know everything, then they would know how to fool/trick each other. If they are capable of being fooled or tricked they would cease to be omniscient.

Or they would both know that the other can't be tricked. Omniscience doesn't imply knowledge of how to do what is logically impossible.
mongeese
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8/3/2010 8:44:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/3/2010 6:04:59 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Well, first of all, I don't think anything could be omniscient(because it's retarded), but for this argument, lets pretend one being is capable of being omniscient.

The reason I don't think two omniscient beings could simultaniously exist, is for exactly the reason that this chess scenario cannot be answered. If they both know everything, then they would know how to fool/trick each other. If they are capable of being fooled or tricked they would cease to be omniscient.

That's like claiming that an omniscient being must know how to break into Las Vegas using only a pork chop and a screwdriver. Some things can't be done, and omniscience involves knowing that it can't be done.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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8/3/2010 8:53:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
there might be an infinite regress lurking though. an omniscient being would have to know everything, including a completely inventory of what it knows, which would include a complete inventory of what it knows, etc. really has nothing to do with how many there are though. also if its "omniscient" maybe an infinite regress isn't a problem for it. infinite knowledge sounds suspiciously impossible to me though. probably only physically impossible? i would need to think about it more.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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8/3/2010 9:50:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/3/2010 8:44:40 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/3/2010 6:04:59 PM, tvellalott wrote:
.

That's like claiming that an omniscient being must know how to break into Las Vegas using only a pork chop and a screwdriver.

but apparently you can break into the largest bank in France using only a ball point pen
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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8/3/2010 9:54:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/3/2010 8:44:40 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/3/2010 6:04:59 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Well, first of all, I don't think anything could be omniscient(because it's retarded), but for this argument, lets pretend one being is capable of being omniscient.

The reason I don't think two omniscient beings could simultaniously exist, is for exactly the reason that this chess scenario cannot be answered. If they both know everything, then they would know how to fool/trick each other. If they are capable of being fooled or tricked they would cease to be omniscient.

That's like claiming that an omniscient being must know how to break into Las Vegas using only a pork chop and a screwdriver. Some things can't be done, and omniscience involves knowing that it can't be done.

An omniscient being would know how to do that, in fact I could do that..
It would involve wild dogs and lots of stabbing.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Mason0612
Posts: 160
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8/3/2010 9:59:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/3/2010 9:54:36 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/3/2010 8:44:40 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/3/2010 6:04:59 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Well, first of all, I don't think anything could be omniscient(because it's retarded), but for this argument, lets pretend one being is capable of being omniscient.

The reason I don't think two omniscient beings could simultaniously exist, is for exactly the reason that this chess scenario cannot be answered. If they both know everything, then they would know how to fool/trick each other. If they are capable of being fooled or tricked they would cease to be omniscient.

That's like claiming that an omniscient being must know how to break into Las Vegas using only a pork chop and a screwdriver. Some things can't be done, and omniscience involves knowing that it can't be done.

An omniscient being would know how to do that, in fact I could do that..
It would involve wild dogs and lots of stabbing.

Omniscient is all knowing, not all powerful.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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8/3/2010 10:06:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

Omniscient knows EVERYTHING.
Thus,
Omniscient = Omnipotent
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Mason0612
Posts: 160
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8/3/2010 10:12:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/3/2010 10:06:51 PM, tvellalott wrote:
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

Omniscient knows EVERYTHING.
Thus,
Omniscient = Omnipotent

If you told an omniscient being to break into Las Vegas using ONLY a pork chop and a screwdriver, they probably couldn't. They woul know how to do it with a different method, but they couldn't defy the laws of physics and reason. If you told an omniscient person to go outside and make themselves float up into the air, they couldn't. They would know how to build or use something that allowed them to fly, but they couldn't do it without resorting to those methods, just like they couldn't break in with just a screwdriver and pork chop.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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8/3/2010 10:13:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/3/2010 10:06:51 PM, tvellalott wrote:
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

Omniscient knows EVERYTHING.
Thus,
Omniscient = Omnipotent

Haha, I hope that was a joke.
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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8/3/2010 10:14:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/3/2010 10:12:55 PM, Mason0612 wrote:
At 8/3/2010 10:06:51 PM, tvellalott wrote:
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

Omniscient knows EVERYTHING.
Thus,
Omniscient = Omnipotent

If you told an omniscient being to break into Las Vegas using ONLY a pork chop and a screwdriver, they probably couldn't. They woul know how to do it with a different method, but they couldn't defy the laws of physics and reason. If you told an omniscient person to go outside and make themselves float up into the air, they couldn't. They would know how to build or use something that allowed them to fly, but they couldn't do it without resorting to those methods, just like they couldn't break in with just a screwdriver and pork chop.

I thought we established that it could be done the breaking into vegas with a porkchop and screwdriver
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
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Mason0612
Posts: 160
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8/3/2010 10:15:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/3/2010 10:14:04 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 8/3/2010 10:12:55 PM, Mason0612 wrote:
At 8/3/2010 10:06:51 PM, tvellalott wrote:
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

Omniscient knows EVERYTHING.
Thus,
Omniscient = Omnipotent

If you told an omniscient being to break into Las Vegas using ONLY a pork chop and a screwdriver, they probably couldn't. They woul know how to do it with a different method, but they couldn't defy the laws of physics and reason. If you told an omniscient person to go outside and make themselves float up into the air, they couldn't. They would know how to build or use something that allowed them to fly, but they couldn't do it without resorting to those methods, just like they couldn't break in with just a screwdriver and pork chop.

I thought we established that it could be done the breaking into vegas with a porkchop and screwdriver

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that we established this
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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8/4/2010 1:44:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/3/2010 10:13:43 PM, Denote wrote:
At 8/3/2010 10:06:51 PM, tvellalott wrote:
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

Omniscient knows EVERYTHING.
Thus,
Omniscient = Omnipotent

Haha, I hope that was a joke.

Concept of Omniscient & Omnipotent = Joke

We may as well talk about whether or not Spiderman could get tangled in his own web.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/4/2010 2:48:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/3/2010 4:28:43 PM, Freeman wrote:
If two omniscient people played chess, what would happen? Would either of them win? I just thought of this, and I haven't been able to find a conclusive answer. Personally, I think every game would end in a stalemate.

Depends if your omni includes the future tense of knowledge - I'm not really sure. It's a collection of massive multiple hierarchy trees that open up and close as moves are made. Simply because one can foresee the potential of what moves can be made given particular positions of pieces, does not equal being able to adequately counter all those possibilities given the limited pieces to play with.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/4/2010 3:02:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/3/2010 4:28:43 PM, Freeman wrote:
If two omniscient people played chess, what would happen? Would either of them win? I just thought of this, and I haven't been able to find a conclusive answer. Personally, I think every game would end in a stalemate.

One of them could lose.. but he'd know about it in advance.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/4/2010 3:40:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/4/2010 3:02:40 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/3/2010 4:28:43 PM, Freeman wrote:
If two omniscient people played chess, what would happen? Would either of them win? I just thought of this, and I haven't been able to find a conclusive answer. Personally, I think every game would end in a stalemate.

One of them could lose.. but he'd know about it in advance.

Which would just lead back to an infinite regress.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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8/4/2010 8:19:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/4/2010 1:44:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/3/2010 10:13:43 PM, Denote wrote:
At 8/3/2010 10:06:51 PM, tvellalott wrote:
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

Omniscient knows EVERYTHING.
Thus,
Omniscient = Omnipotent

Haha, I hope that was a joke.

Concept of Omniscient & Omnipotent = Joke

We may as well talk about whether or not Spiderman could get tangled in his own web.

Why am I getting the impression that you're someone who thinks the, "Can God create a rock so big even he can't lift" example is actually a valid argument?
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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8/4/2010 7:23:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/4/2010 8:19:52 AM, Denote wrote:
At 8/4/2010 1:44:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/3/2010 10:13:43 PM, Denote wrote:
At 8/3/2010 10:06:51 PM, tvellalott wrote:
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

Omniscient knows EVERYTHING.
Thus,
Omniscient = Omnipotent

Haha, I hope that was a joke.

Concept of Omniscient & Omnipotent = Joke

We may as well talk about whether or not Spiderman could get tangled in his own web.

Why am I getting the impression that you're someone who thinks the, "Can God create a rock so big even he can't lift" example is actually a valid argument?

Because you can't hear sarcasm on the internet and completely misinterpreted what i'm trying to say. I however I do think the "God isn't real because it's retarded" argument is valid.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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8/4/2010 7:40:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/4/2010 7:23:09 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/4/2010 8:19:52 AM, Denote wrote:
At 8/4/2010 1:44:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/3/2010 10:13:43 PM, Denote wrote:
At 8/3/2010 10:06:51 PM, tvellalott wrote:
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

Omniscient knows EVERYTHING.
Thus,
Omniscient = Omnipotent

Haha, I hope that was a joke.

Concept of Omniscient & Omnipotent = Joke

We may as well talk about whether or not Spiderman could get tangled in his own web.

Why am I getting the impression that you're someone who thinks the, "Can God create a rock so big even he can't lift" example is actually a valid argument?

Because you can't hear sarcasm on the internet and completely misinterpreted what i'm trying to say. I however I do think the "God isn't real because it's retarded" argument is valid.

You're quite the intellectual.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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8/5/2010 3:51:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/4/2010 7:40:29 PM, Denote wrote:
You're quite the intellectual.

Thanks! I didn't think you thought much of me, but I'm glad you saw past my facade and saw my intended meaning.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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