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Does God have authority ?

Amoranemix
Posts: 521
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5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.

Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.
The earth does not belong to man; man belongs to the earth.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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5/1/2015 12:53:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 12:51:50 PM, bulproof wrote:
Which god and authority over what?

Since the OP poster is an atheist, I don't think he/she is gonna be able to answer that.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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5/1/2015 2:42:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 12:53:44 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:51:50 PM, bulproof wrote:
Which god and authority over what?

Since the OP poster is an atheist, I don't think he/she is gonna be able to answer that.

And why is that?
Obviously he could simply say that by "God" he means the Christian God and by "authority" judical authority over his creation.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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5/1/2015 2:49:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.
God can only have authority if one chooses to acknowledge it.
Responding to authoritarian claims with "I don't care" is always an option. What can God do about it other than manipulate your brain? Scare you with hell? Even then "I don't care" remains a valid response.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/1/2015 4:38:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

He created everything = he has authority over everything.

Nothing else is needed.
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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5/1/2015 6:14:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 4:38:52 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

He created everything = he has authority over everything.

Nothing else is needed.
#mightmakesright
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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5/1/2015 6:47:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 4:38:52 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

He created everything = he has authority over everything.

Nothing else is needed.

Thanks for the small child version, anything from an adult viewpoint?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
mrsatan
Posts: 428
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5/1/2015 6:50:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 4:38:52 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

He created everything = he has authority over everything.

Nothing else is needed.

Seems to me that God relinquished his authority over us by giving us free will.

I'm assuming you believe we have free will, my apologies if I am mistaken in that.
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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5/1/2015 7:33:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:

Parents have authority over their children. Situation:

A child is about to touch something that will burn him/her, but not seriously.

Do the parents stop the child?

Do the parents allow the child to be (not seriously) injured to learn an object lesson?

What would parents say about those who did not make their choice?
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/1/2015 7:46:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Theological claims for divine authority tend to claim two kinds of authority:
* physical: the authority to prescribe how the universe shall run physically; and
* moral: the authority to prescribe how man should live morally and socially.

The first authority is a claimed of power through agency: Creators can create anything, destroy anything and change anything, so they can order things however they want.

That claim isn't a claim of moral authority, but of dictatorship. Moreover, it's based on physical evidence, and so it can be refuted by physical observation -- and has been, many times.

The second claim is a claim of moral authority, but it's claimed through character, motive and insight: if God has good character, is well-motivated and knows more than we do, then we should heed God's wishes.

But here's where theology trips up: the character, motives and insights of God are visible through God's biography. And poor character, bad motives and stupid acts can't be excused by appealing to physical authority.

So typically, theology forbids questioning God's character, motives and insights at all (calling it blasphemy to do so), and theology appeals to the power of God to argue that if you do so, it's insulting and you'll be punished very badly.

Thus, theology dodges any divine accountability entirely.

Moreover, theology also makes moral claims through prophets, apostles and revelation, which brings the character, motive and insights of prophets and apostles themselves into question.

Most prophets and apostles aren't very clever, don't live very good lives; their biographies are dubious historically; and even if true, they often say and do things that make you wonder just how wise and kind they really are. And if they're not exemplary themselves, why should anyone believe their claims?

Again, you're not allowed to question. Please see Figure 1 regarding the Power of God.

So again, no accountability.

At some point I think the conversation has to shift from the validity of theology, to the authority of theologians to make any claims at all.

I don't personally think they have that authority. I think they love claiming authority they have no right to, all the while denying any responsibility for their own ignorance, errors, and vanity.

I think once they're caught lying, prevaricating or overstepping their own knowledge, if they won't admit they're doing that, then they're of poor moral character themselves, and you need not listen to anything else they're claiming on that topic, any more than you'd listen to a convicted con-man.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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5/1/2015 9:22:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do. : :

Since our Creator is the one who planned, created and formed everything we observe, He has total authority of everything we experience.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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5/1/2015 10:28:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

The plow of the farmer doesn't appear useful to the weeds and thorns.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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5/1/2015 11:01:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 6:47:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:38:52 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

He created everything = he has authority over everything.

Nothing else is needed.

Thanks for the small child version, anything from an adult viewpoint?

Replace the word "God" with the words "Mother Nature" or "Father Time" and the same questions and answers apply.
It makes no difference what name you give to the invisible characters, they only have as much authority as an individual human believes they do. Some humans are so entranced by them that they end up under the spell of fictional characters. Is it the mythical characters who gain the authority over human minds or the humans who allow themselves to be self deceived by their own fantasies?
People are obviously controlled by their own beliefs.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,225
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5/1/2015 11:02:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 10:28:28 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

The plow of the farmer doesn't appear useful to the weeds and thorns.

Then the farmer probably shouldn't be growing weeds and thorns then, huh?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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5/1/2015 11:06:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 10:28:28 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

The plow of the farmer doesn't appear useful to the weeds and thorns.

Do weeds and thorns find anything at all useful?
Do they even know they exist?
When things lack self awareness they are incapable of making any judgements at all.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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5/1/2015 11:33:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 11:02:08 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 5/1/2015 10:28:28 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

The plow of the farmer doesn't appear useful to the weeds and thorns.

Then the farmer probably shouldn't be growing weeds and thorns then, huh?

Yeah God should just make us robots incapable of choosing to do anything of our own will.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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5/1/2015 11:34:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 11:06:30 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 5/1/2015 10:28:28 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

The plow of the farmer doesn't appear useful to the weeds and thorns.

Do weeds and thorns find anything at all useful?
Do they even know they exist?
When things lack self awareness they are incapable of making any judgements at all.

Lacking awareness and being incapable of making judgements seems to be what some around here think god should have done.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,225
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5/2/2015 12:09:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 11:33:01 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/1/2015 11:02:08 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 5/1/2015 10:28:28 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

The plow of the farmer doesn't appear useful to the weeds and thorns.

Then the farmer probably shouldn't be growing weeds and thorns then, huh?

Yeah God should just make us robots incapable of choosing to do anything of our own will.

So lets give man free will, then punish him when He doesn't run to me after using it. Yeah. That's what God should do.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/2/2015 6:39:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 12:09:48 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 5/1/2015 11:33:01 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/1/2015 11:02:08 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 5/1/2015 10:28:28 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

The plow of the farmer doesn't appear useful to the weeds and thorns.

Then the farmer probably shouldn't be growing weeds and thorns then, huh?

Yeah God should just make us robots incapable of choosing to do anything of our own will.

So lets give man free will, then punish him when He doesn't run to me after using it. Yeah. That's what God should do.

Even better why not use it wisely in the first place, and if you make a mistake turn to the one who can sort it out for you?

That's what Jehovah is there for after all, to help us to learn form our errors.

However, Jehovah is not punishing us, in fact his sent his own beloved son to earth to become human, suffer and die so that our problems with our imperfect nature, which we inherited from Adam, can be put right.

We are only punished for what we do wrong, and even then only if we don't learn from our errors and put in a determined effort to stop making them stop making them.

Unfortunately it makes it harder for us when we have learned bad habits form our ancestors, which is, of course, why the sins of the fathers are so often visited on the sons, because they learn them from their fathers, who learned them from their fathers, and so on..
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/2/2015 6:41:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 6:50:48 PM, mrsatan wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:38:52 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

He created everything = he has authority over everything.

Nothing else is needed.

Seems to me that God relinquished his authority over us by giving us free will.

I'm assuming you believe we have free will, my apologies if I am mistaken in that.

No, he simply allowed us, and designed us for, a certain level of autonomy, and then trusted us to use that free will wisely.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/2/2015 6:45:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 6:47:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:38:52 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

He created everything = he has authority over everything.

Nothing else is needed.

Thanks for the small child version, anything from an adult viewpoint?

You're welcome, lol.
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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5/2/2015 6:47:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/1/2015 11:33:01 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/1/2015 11:02:08 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 5/1/2015 10:28:28 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

The plow of the farmer doesn't appear useful to the weeds and thorns.

Then the farmer probably shouldn't be growing weeds and thorns then, huh?

Yeah God should just make us robots incapable of choosing to do anything of our own will.

Then we'd be in heaven already
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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5/2/2015 6:49:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 6:45:22 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 6:47:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:38:52 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

He created everything = he has authority over everything.

Nothing else is needed.

Thanks for the small child version, anything from an adult viewpoint?

You're welcome, lol.
Translation = NO.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
mrsatan
Posts: 428
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5/2/2015 7:30:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 6:41:44 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 6:50:48 PM, mrsatan wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:38:52 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

He created everything = he has authority over everything.

Nothing else is needed.

Seems to me that God relinquished his authority over us by giving us free will.

I'm assuming you believe we have free will, my apologies if I am mistaken in that.

No, he simply allowed us, and designed us for, a certain level of autonomy, and then trusted us to use that free will wisely.

Probably should have designed us to be a bit wiser, then...
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/2/2015 8:18:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 6:49:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/2/2015 6:45:22 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 6:47:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:38:52 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

He created everything = he has authority over everything.

Nothing else is needed.

Thanks for the small child version, anything from an adult viewpoint?

You're welcome, lol.
Translation = NO.

No translation needed, as usual I meant what I said, albeit in this case somewhat facetiously.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/2/2015 8:20:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 7:30:44 AM, mrsatan wrote:
At 5/2/2015 6:41:44 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 6:50:48 PM, mrsatan wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:38:52 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

He created everything = he has authority over everything.

Nothing else is needed.

Seems to me that God relinquished his authority over us by giving us free will.

I'm assuming you believe we have free will, my apologies if I am mistaken in that.

No, he simply allowed us, and designed us for, a certain level of autonomy, and then trusted us to use that free will wisely.

Probably should have designed us to be a bit wiser, then...

Well Adam almost certainly was, but apparently still not wise enough. Humanity has gone slowly downhill since then.

However some of us are learning, thanks to Jehovah's son, the Christ, and the use of holy spirit.
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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5/2/2015 8:21:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 8:18:33 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/2/2015 6:49:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/2/2015 6:45:22 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 6:47:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:38:52 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

He created everything = he has authority over everything.

Nothing else is needed.

Thanks for the small child version, anything from an adult viewpoint?

You're welcome, lol.
Translation = NO.

No translation needed, as usual I meant what I said, albeit in this case somewhat facetiously.

Schoolyard.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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5/2/2015 9:35:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 12:09:48 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 5/1/2015 11:33:01 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/1/2015 11:02:08 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 5/1/2015 10:28:28 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

The plow of the farmer doesn't appear useful to the weeds and thorns.

Then the farmer probably shouldn't be growing weeds and thorns then, huh?

Yeah God should just make us robots incapable of choosing to do anything of our own will.

So lets give man free will, then punish him when He doesn't run to me after using it. Yeah. That's what God should do.

Do you think it so strange that that is how responsibility works?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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5/2/2015 9:48:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 7:30:44 AM, mrsatan wrote:
At 5/2/2015 6:41:44 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 6:50:48 PM, mrsatan wrote:
At 5/1/2015 4:38:52 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/1/2015 12:49:01 PM, Amoranemix wrote:
God's authority is sometimes used as justifying God's (in)action or making him the author an objective morality that everyone should adhere to. My requests for proof that God has that authority have so far been met with deafening silence.

What is authority ? According to dictionary.reference.com :
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization :
Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government:
They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject:

The pertinent definitions seem to be 1 to 4. They can be summarized in the two following :
a) Having authority is being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.
b) Having the authority is having the right of being in charge, decision-maker, trusted, followed and obeyed.

I think everyone agrees that God has authority for some people according to meaning a, if existence is not required.

B however, is a different matter, for it seems to be a matter of opinion if we exclude power as a means to acquire authority. Rights are granted according to opinions. If someone A has certain rights, then that is because someone (maybe also A) is of the opinion that A has those rights. Such rights and thus authority could be granted in accordance to criteria However, these criteria are also established by opinion (or other criteria, which themselves are established by opinion (or other criteria, which . . .)).

So it seems that in order to demonstrate that God has authority, theists need to produce criteria for authority that non-theists can agree with and then demonstrate that God meets those criteria. (Hint : most non-theists disagree with the Bible and the Koran.)

A possible criterion could be usefulness. For example, it would be useful that in cases that fall under their jurisdiction that people obey the police and therefore the police should have authority. In such case such authority has been granted to them legally, even if some people disobey them.


Voila. If theists can think of other ways to prove God's authority as in meaning b, then please do.

He created everything = he has authority over everything.

Nothing else is needed.

Seems to me that God relinquished his authority over us by giving us free will.

I'm assuming you believe we have free will, my apologies if I am mistaken in that.

No, he simply allowed us, and designed us for, a certain level of autonomy, and then trusted us to use that free will wisely.

Probably should have designed us to be a bit wiser, then...

I think we have been getting dumber. Other tales convey the same message