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America Against Sufism? Why?

GeoLaureate8
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8/5/2010 12:11:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The mosque being built by Ground Zero is a Sufi mosque, yet all the conservative Americans are up in arms about it? Sufism is a very different brand of Islam just as Gnosticism is to Christianity. I doubt the nay-sayers even heard of the word "Sufi" let alone know it's tenets. There were no Sufis involved in the attacks of the Twin Towers, and probably no Sufi involved in violence period (if there were, I'd be surprised).
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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8/5/2010 12:17:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
It's mostly insensitive. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with building a mosque there, but it is certainly douchebaggish. It's like building a neo-Nazi clan building next to Auschwitz. Just not cool.
GeoLaureate8
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8/5/2010 12:22:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 12:17:27 AM, Nags wrote:
It's mostly insensitive. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with building a mosque there, but it is certainly douchebaggish. It's like building a neo-Nazi clan building next to Auschwitz. Just not cool.

No it's not. The Nazi ideology actually did fuel the holocaust where as Islam ideology did not bring down the towers. There is no passage that says "strap a bomb on and fly into a building."

Plus, my point in this thread is that Sufism is so radically different than orthodox Islam, that it really can't even be considered the same ideology and thus, there should be absolutely no complaints about it.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/5/2010 12:25:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 12:17:27 AM, Nags wrote:
It's mostly insensitive. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with building a mosque there, but it is certainly douchebaggish. It's like building a neo-Nazi clan building next to Auschwitz. Just not cool.

That's terrible, but it made me lol. xD

As for actually building the mosque, I feel there is potential for it to increase interfaith relations due to its location. Because of the 9/11 attacks I think more people may potentially get curious to educate themselves about Islam if they see a mosque there. Of course the opposite can happen too. I have a feeling there could be vandalism and other silly things happening purposely to degrade the muslims of this particular mosque.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/5/2010 12:25:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 12:22:31 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/5/2010 12:17:27 AM, Nags wrote:
It's mostly insensitive. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with building a mosque there, but it is certainly douchebaggish. It's like building a neo-Nazi clan building next to Auschwitz. Just not cool.

No it's not. The Nazi ideology actually did fuel the holocaust where as Islam ideology did not bring down the towers. There is no passage that says "strap a bomb on and fly into a building."

Plus, my point in this thread is that Sufism is so radically different than orthodox Islam, that it really can't even be considered the same ideology and thus, there should be absolutely no complaints about it.

nags said neo-nazis.
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/5/2010 12:25:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 12:17:27 AM, Nags wrote:
It's mostly insensitive. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with building a mosque there, but it is certainly douchebaggish. It's like building a neo-Nazi clan building next to Auschwitz. Just not cool.

agreed again.
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Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/5/2010 12:30:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 12:22:31 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

No it's not. The Nazi ideology actually did fuel the holocaust where as Islam ideology did not bring down the towers.

Look up why 'war with the West' is used so often as rhetoric to fuel the propoganda as what lead to 911.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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8/5/2010 12:45:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 12:25:28 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/5/2010 12:22:31 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/5/2010 12:17:27 AM, Nags wrote:
It's mostly insensitive. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with building a mosque there, but it is certainly douchebaggish. It's like building a neo-Nazi clan building next to Auschwitz. Just not cool.

No it's not. The Nazi ideology actually did fuel the holocaust where as Islam ideology did not bring down the towers. There is no passage that says "strap a bomb on and fly into a building."

nags said neo-nazis.

Badger is correct. I said neo-Nazi, not Nazi. Which renders your [Geo] point... pointless. Neo-Nazis had nothing to do with the holocaust.

Now, even if I did say Nazi, my point would still stand. Nazism did have to do with the holocaust, undoubtedly. Similarly, Islam did have somewhat to do with 9/11. I am certainly of the camp that says that American aggression abroad was the reason that the US was attacked, and not Islam. But to deny that Islam had anything to do with 9/11 is a bit far-fetched. Unless of course you say that the government set up 9/11, which is a whole other argument not worth delving into in this thread.

Plus, my point in this thread is that Sufism is so radically different than orthodox Islam, that it really can't even be considered the same ideology and thus, there should be absolutely no complaints about it.

Sufism is a dimension of Islam, thus Sufism does have something to do with Islam. Close enough. Same with Neo-Nazi and Nazi.
Xer
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8/5/2010 12:49:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 12:30:32 AM, Puck wrote:
At 8/5/2010 12:22:31 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

No it's not. The Nazi ideology actually did fuel the holocaust where as Islam ideology did not bring down the towers.

Look up why 'war with the West' is used so often as rhetoric to fuel the propoganda as what lead to 911.

Isn't it war "against" the West, not "with"?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/5/2010 12:57:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 12:45:28 AM, Nags wrote:
At 8/5/2010 12:25:28 AM, badger wrote:
nags said neo-nazis.

Badger is correct. I said neo-Nazi, not Nazi. Which renders your [Geo] point... pointless. Neo-Nazis had nothing to do with the holocaust.

Actually, you're wrong. Neo-Nazism is the same ideology as Nazism which IS the ideology that resulted in the holocaust.

"Neo-Nazism consists of post-World War II social or political movements seeking to revive Nazism or some variant thereof." -- http://en.wikipedia.org...

Now, even if I did say Nazi, my point would still stand. Nazism did have to do with the holocaust, undoubtedly. Similarly, Islam did have somewhat to do with 9/11. I am certainly of the camp that says that American aggression abroad was the reason that the US was attacked, and not Islam. But to deny that Islam had anything to do with 9/11 is a bit far-fetched.

Wrong again. Nazism directly lead to the holocaust. It takes more of a stretch to begin to connect Islam with 911. The people that brought down the towers happen to have been Muslims, probably even in the name of God. But if two Christians did it, and did so in the name of God, would people be making the same connection to Christianity with 911? Doubtful.

In order for your claim to be validated, Islam would have to have a core doctrine against America like Nazism did against Jews.

Plus, my point in this thread is that Sufism is so radically different than orthodox Islam, that it really can't even be considered the same ideology and thus, there should be absolutely no complaints about it.

Sufism is a dimension of Islam, thus Sufism does have something to do with Islam. Close enough. Same with Neo-Nazi and Nazi.

There is no doctrinal difference between Neo-Nazi and Nazi.

There IS a doctrinal difference between Sufism and Islam.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/5/2010 1:00:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 12:57:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/5/2010 12:45:28 AM, Nags wrote:
At 8/5/2010 12:25:28 AM, badger wrote:
nags said neo-nazis.

Badger is correct. I said neo-Nazi, not Nazi. Which renders your [Geo] point... pointless. Neo-Nazis had nothing to do with the holocaust.

Actually, you're wrong. Neo-Nazism is the same ideology as Nazism which IS the ideology that resulted in the holocaust.

"Neo-Nazism consists of post-World War II social or political movements seeking to revive Nazism or some variant thereof." -- http://en.wikipedia.org...

Now, even if I did say Nazi, my point would still stand. Nazism did have to do with the holocaust, undoubtedly. Similarly, Islam did have somewhat to do with 9/11. I am certainly of the camp that says that American aggression abroad was the reason that the US was attacked, and not Islam. But to deny that Islam had anything to do with 9/11 is a bit far-fetched.

Wrong again. Nazism directly lead to the holocaust. It takes more of a stretch to begin to connect Islam with 911. The people that brought down the towers happen to have been Muslims, probably even in the name of God. But if two Christians did it, and did so in the name of God, would people be making the same connection to Christianity with 911? Doubtful.

In order for your claim to be validated, Islam would have to have a core doctrine against America like Nazism did against Jews.

Plus, my point in this thread is that Sufism is so radically different than orthodox Islam, that it really can't even be considered the same ideology and thus, there should be absolutely no complaints about it.

Sufism is a dimension of Islam, thus Sufism does have something to do with Islam. Close enough. Same with Neo-Nazi and Nazi.

There is no doctrinal difference between Neo-Nazi and Nazi.

There IS a doctrinal difference between Sufism and Islam.

"some variant thereof"...
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Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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8/5/2010 1:03:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
You do realize that most Americans don't care about the distinction, right?
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
InsertNameHere
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8/5/2010 1:05:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 1:03:26 AM, Korashk wrote:
You do realize that most Americans don't care about the distinction, right?

That's kinda the point. They don't care whether the muslims are sunni, shi'a, sufi, whatever. They're still just all "terrorists" and of course it pisses me off.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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8/5/2010 1:07:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 1:05:53 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/5/2010 1:03:26 AM, Korashk wrote:
You do realize that most Americans don't care about the distinction, right?

That's kinda the point. They don't care whether the muslims are sunni, shi'a, sufi, whatever. They're still just all "terrorists" and of course it pisses me off.

Why do you hate America so much?
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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8/5/2010 1:07:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 12:57:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Actually, you're wrong. Neo-Nazism is the same ideology as Nazism which IS the ideology that resulted in the holocaust.

"Neo-Nazism consists of post-World War II social or political movements seeking to revive Nazism or some variant thereof." -- http://en.wikipedia.org...

I don't recall denying that Neo-Nazism and Nazism are similar. They certainly are. However, they are not the same, or 100% equal to each other. Hitler was a Nazi, not a Neo-Nazi.

Wrong again. Nazism directly lead to the holocaust. It takes more of a stretch to begin to connect Islam with 911. The people that brought down the towers happen to have been Muslims, probably even in the name of God. But if two Christians did it, and did so in the name of God, would people be making the same connection to Christianity with 911? Doubtful.

If two Christians killed 3,000 people in the name of God, I'm pretty sure people would make the connection to Christianity. Rhetorical question if you ask me.

In order for your claim to be validated, Islam would have to have a core doctrine against America like Nazism did against Jews.

No. My claim isn't that a mosque shouldn't be built in Ground Zero because Islam is against America. My claim is that a mosque shouldn't be built in Ground Zero because Islam was a partial cause of 9/11.

Sufism is a dimension of Islam, thus Sufism does have something to do with Islam. Close enough. Same with Neo-Nazi and Nazi.

There is no doctrinal difference between Neo-Nazi and Nazi.

Eh. There is somewhat. While the differences may be minute, differences do exist. Just like between neo-conservative and conservative. Neo-Nazis, for example, don't go around exterminating Jews and non-Aryans.

There IS a doctrinal difference between Sufism and Islam.

Doesn't matter much whether there is a difference or not anyway. They are strongly related, that's all that matters.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/5/2010 1:11:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 1:07:16 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 8/5/2010 1:05:53 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/5/2010 1:03:26 AM, Korashk wrote:
You do realize that most Americans don't care about the distinction, right?

That's kinda the point. They don't care whether the muslims are sunni, shi'a, sufi, whatever. They're still just all "terrorists" and of course it pisses me off.

Why do you hate America so much?

I don't hate America. I hate the policies of the American government. There's a difference. See, this proves my point. Even I get accused and targeted simply because I'm critical of american foreign policy.
InsertNameHere
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8/5/2010 1:13:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 1:07:53 AM, Nags wrote:

Eh. There is somewhat. While the differences may be minute, differences do exist. Just like between neo-conservative and conservative. Neo-Nazis, for example, don't go around exterminating Jews and non-Aryans.

Erm...they would go around exterminating people if they could.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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8/5/2010 1:25:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 1:11:38 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/5/2010 1:07:16 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 8/5/2010 1:05:53 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/5/2010 1:03:26 AM, Korashk wrote:
You do realize that most Americans don't care about the distinction, right?

That's kinda the point. They don't care whether the muslims are sunni, shi'a, sufi, whatever. They're still just all "terrorists" and of course it pisses me off.

Why do you hate America so much?

I don't hate America. I hate the policies of the American government. There's a difference. See, this proves my point. Even I get accused and targeted simply because I'm critical of american foreign policy.

What does foreign policy have to do with sandeaters targeting innoccent Americans and then building their little shrine on the spot to mock the victims and their families?
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/5/2010 1:27:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 12:49:03 AM, Nags wrote:
At 8/5/2010 12:30:32 AM, Puck wrote:
At 8/5/2010 12:22:31 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

No it's not. The Nazi ideology actually did fuel the holocaust where as Islam ideology did not bring down the towers.

Look up why 'war with the West' is used so often as rhetoric to fuel the propoganda as what lead to 911.

Isn't it war "against" the West, not "with"?

Condensed from at war with the west.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/5/2010 1:27:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 1:25:09 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 8/5/2010 1:11:38 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/5/2010 1:07:16 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 8/5/2010 1:05:53 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/5/2010 1:03:26 AM, Korashk wrote:
You do realize that most Americans don't care about the distinction, right?

That's kinda the point. They don't care whether the muslims are sunni, shi'a, sufi, whatever. They're still just all "terrorists" and of course it pisses me off.

Why do you hate America so much?

I don't hate America. I hate the policies of the American government. There's a difference. See, this proves my point. Even I get accused and targeted simply because I'm critical of american foreign policy.

What does foreign policy have to do with sandeaters targeting innoccent Americans and then building their little shrine on the spot to mock the victims and their families?

It's not about mocking the victims. As Geo said, it's a Sufi mosque. Sufis had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.
Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
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8/5/2010 1:32:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Even though it is a jurisprudence of islam that claims to follow the mystic path it is still monumentally offensive to even apply to build a mosque near to that most dreadful examples of Islamic terrorism.

What is worth note is that the mainstream Islamic schools deny that Sufism actually constitutes Islam.
InsertNameHere
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8/5/2010 1:33:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 1:32:24 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:

What is worth note is that the mainstream Islamic schools deny that Sufism actually constitutes Islam.

That's true actually, but meh. It's still considered Islam.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/5/2010 1:57:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 1:07:53 AM, Nags wrote:
At 8/5/2010 12:57:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Actually, you're wrong. Neo-Nazism is the same ideology as Nazism which IS the ideology that resulted in the holocaust.

"Neo-Nazism consists of post-World War II social or political movements seeking to revive Nazism or some variant thereof." -- http://en.wikipedia.org...

I don't recall denying that Neo-Nazism and Nazism are similar. They certainly are. However, they are not the same, or 100% equal to each other. Hitler was a Nazi, not a Neo-Nazi.

They are the same, they just exist in different time periods.

There is no doctrinal difference between Neo-Nazi and Nazi.

Eh. There is somewhat. While the differences may be minute, differences do exist. Just like between neo-conservative and conservative. Neo-Nazis, for example, don't go around exterminating Jews and non-Aryans.

This is a failure to understand the difference between doctrine and practice. Neo-Nazis and Nazis have the same doctrines, it's just that the Neo-Nazis don't put it to practice.

There IS a doctrinal difference between Sufism and Islam.

Doesn't matter much whether there is a difference or not anyway. They are strongly related, that's all that matters.

They are not equivalent. Even Christianity is strongly related to Islam.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/5/2010 1:58:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 1:32:24 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
What is worth note is that the mainstream Islamic schools deny that Sufism actually constitutes Islam.


Thank you. That is the point that people don't get.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Zeitgeist
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8/5/2010 2:27:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 1:57:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Even Christianity is strongly related to Islam.

Absolutely.

Islam is an heretical blasphemy of Christianity.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/5/2010 2:28:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 2:27:25 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
At 8/5/2010 1:57:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Even Christianity is strongly related to Islam.

Absolutely.

Islam is an heretical blasphemy of Christianity.

Lol.
GeoLaureate8
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8/5/2010 2:29:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 2:27:25 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
At 8/5/2010 1:57:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Even Christianity is strongly related to Islam.

Absolutely.

Islam is an heretical blasphemy of Christianity.

Well, from a Christian standpoint. From an Islamic and a historical viewpoint, Christianity and Islam are strongly related.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Zeitgeist
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8/5/2010 2:39:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 2:28:35 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/5/2010 2:27:25 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
At 8/5/2010 1:57:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Even Christianity is strongly related to Islam.

Absolutely.

Islam is an heretical blasphemy of Christianity.

Lol.
Laugh by all means, but from a Christian perspective Islam is both heretical and blasphemous.

From an Atheist perspective it's just plain wrong from soup to nuts.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/5/2010 2:42:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/5/2010 2:39:59 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
At 8/5/2010 2:28:35 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/5/2010 2:27:25 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
At 8/5/2010 1:57:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Even Christianity is strongly related to Islam.

Absolutely.

Islam is an heretical blasphemy of Christianity.

Lol.
Laugh by all means, but from a Christian perspective Islam is both heretical and blasphemous.

From an Atheist perspective it's just plain wrong from soup to nuts.

That isn't true. I have talked to many christians who don't believe Islam to be heretical and blasphemous, just incorrect and that Muhammad was a false prophet.