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Pase66
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5/4/2015 5:11:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
In a previous forum, he never answered my statement. Here, I will post it again.

"Now, God is God for a reason. In the Christian (and JW's) perspective, he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent (all loving), so basically all powerful. Now, omniscient means to know know everything. Thus, it follows that God would know the past, present, and future, for those three fall under the category of "everything". Now, it would be reasoned that God would know Satan is wrong, since he knows the future. Now, if God knew Satan is wrong, he could just destroy Satan and destroy evil, for he is omnipotent (having unlimited power and being able to do anything). Now, if God did not destroy Satan, but knew Satan is wrong, he is not omnipotent, and is thus, not a God. If God could destroy Satan, but did not know Satan is wrong, than he is not omniscient, and is thus, not a God. Now, if God knew Satan is wrong, and could destroy Satan (thus destroying all evil), but did not, then God is not omnibenevolent, and thus, is not a God."
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MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/4/2015 5:40:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 5:11:21 PM, Pase66 wrote:
In a previous forum, he never answered my statement. Here, I will post it again.

"Now, God is God for a reason. In the Christian (and JW's) perspective, he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent (all loving), so basically all powerful. Now, omniscient means to know know everything. Thus, it follows that God would know the past, present, and future, for those three fall under the category of "everything". Now, it would be reasoned that God would know Satan is wrong, since he knows the future. Now, if God knew Satan is wrong, he could just destroy Satan and destroy evil, for he is omnipotent (having unlimited power and being able to do anything). Now, if God did not destroy Satan, but knew Satan is wrong, he is not omnipotent, and is thus, not a God. If God could destroy Satan, but did not know Satan is wrong, than he is not omniscient, and is thus, not a God. Now, if God knew Satan is wrong, and could destroy Satan (thus destroying all evil), but did not, then God is not omnibenevolent, and thus, is not a God."

I am sorry if I failed to answer it, though off hand I have no idea why.

The picture you describe of God is not a Christian view of him, it is an Apostate view of him.

The main that is missing from that description of Jehovah is his ability to choose.

He has the power to do anything, if he chooses.

He has the power to know everything, if he chooses to.

He loves all of his creation, but obviously loves that part of it which chooses to love him, and to love what he loves.

Obviously Jehovah knows the past because he has observed it.

He knows the present since he observes that also.

He knows the future, as it relates to his plans and desires.

He can foretell the future of groups, though eh does not even attempt to know which individuals will become part of which group.

Jehovah knew from the instant he sinned that Satan was wrong, but not all of the angels, nor either Adam and Eve knew that. Therefore there was a case to be tested and proven.

Satan also issued a challenge as detailed in Job chapters 1 and 2 in which he stated that no human would willingly serve God unless he was fully protected from any harm, and also bribed to do so.

This too created an issue that needed to be proved.

Being a God of justice Jehovah realised that ti was a question which needed answering top the extent whereby no-one could turn round and say "what if" and start it all up again.

Had Jehovah simply destroyed Satan and the rebellious angles what would that have proved?

It would simply have shown Jehovah to be an unreasoning bully, mor4e than happy to dispense punishment arbitrarily without "due process".

His perfect senses of Love Wisdom Justice and Mercy would not allow that to be the case.

Hence he gave Satan a time limit in which to do all he could, short of directly destroying mankind, or any individual, to prove his case.

We are near the end of that time period.

After which all who have suffered and died at Satan's hands will be compensated by being returned to the physical state that Adam and Eve enjoyed, and given the same chance of eternal life in perfect health and perfect peace that was the original plan.

Soon Armageddon will be brought in to cleanse the earth and humanity of all rebels who still live.

Satan will be taken out of circulation.

However, there is one set of circumstances left that Satan has top be given a fair chance to prove himself in, so he will not be destroyed at that time.

The dead will be resurrected into Adam like bodies, taught, and given centuries to practice living Jehovah's way, and at the end of the prescribed period Satan will be let loose once again to try and prove his point this time on humans who had been trained and had been able to practice what they were taught.

After a short while, any who fall for his tricks will be destroyed, along with Satan himself. The faithful will be allowed to live on, the kingdom will be handed back to his father by Christ, and all will be as it was originally planned.

The case will have been proved, and Jehovah's name fully vindicated from all accusation put up against him. No spirit being will ever be able to say "Ah but what if...." since all the "what ifs" will have been covered very thoroughly.

No other course of action would have been truly just, since for justice to be real it must apply as much to the guilty as to the innocent.

Like it or not, that is the truth, and is the main theme of and reason for, the bible.
Pase66
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5/4/2015 8:40:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am sorry if I failed to answer it, though off hand I have no idea why.

The picture you describe of God is not a Christian view of him, it is an Apostate view of him.


Here is an error. The only standard you are using to judge apostasy vs. "actual" Christian is if they are part of JW. A Catholic would disagree, as would a Protestant. Here, you're setting up tenuous standards, with its basis in only what you agree with, and not taking the whole picture into consideration.

The main that is missing from that description of Jehovah is his ability to choose.

He has the power to do anything, if he chooses.

He has the power to know everything, if he chooses to.


So he could "choose" to eliminate Satan, and thus evil. Since he has not, he is not omnibenevolent, and is thus not a God.

He loves all of his creation, but obviously loves that part of it which chooses to love him, and to love what he loves.


Since he only loves those who love him, he is petty, and shows favoritism towards those who love him.

Obviously Jehovah knows the past because he has observed it.

He knows the present since he observes that also.

He knows the future, as it relates to his plans and desires.

He can foretell the future of groups, though eh does not even attempt to know which individuals will become part of which group.


Here you are assuming you know the will of a being that hasn't even been proven to exist. A logical fallacy.

Jehovah knew from the instant he sinned that Satan was wrong, but not all of the angels, nor either Adam and Eve knew that. Therefore there was a case to be tested and proven.


So if God knew the future, couldn't he just have taken care of Satan then and there, and spare humanity thousands upon thousands of years worth of suffering? So, he let humanity suffer all because he wanted to prove a point? So, he is not omnibenevolent, and is thus, not a God.

Satan also issued a challenge as detailed in Job chapters 1 and 2 in which he stated that no human would willingly serve God unless he was fully protected from any harm, and also bribed to do so.

This too created an issue that needed to be proved.


So, since God could see into the future, he would know the outcome, and again, be able to spare humanity thousands of years worth of suffering.

Being a God of justice Jehovah realised that ti was a question which needed answering top the extent whereby no-one could turn round and say "what if" and start it all up again.


Jehovah isn't a God of justice. He is a petty God who feels the need to prove a point at the expense of his creation. That's not justice. Its very petty.

Had Jehovah simply destroyed Satan and the rebellious angles what would that have proved?


That he loves his creation, since he destroys evil and suffering. He is all powerful, since he can destroy evil and suffering. And he knows everything, for he knew evil (Satan) was wrong.

It would simply have shown Jehovah to be an unreasoning bully, mor4e than happy to dispense punishment arbitrarily without "due process".


Jehovah already is a petty bully. He lets us suffer all because he wants to prove a point.

His perfect senses of Love Wisdom Justice and Mercy would not allow that to be the case.

Hence he gave Satan a time limit in which to do all he could, short of directly destroying mankind, or any individual, to prove his case.

We are near the end of that time period.


You do realize that JW's have been predicting the end of the world for a long time, and they have been wrong ever since? There is no evidence that the world is going to end any time soon.

After which all who have suffered and died at Satan's hands will be compensated by being returned to the physical state that Adam and Eve enjoyed, and given the same chance of eternal life in perfect health and perfect peace that was the original plan.


Wow, that's a really detailed explanation of Armageddon. Tell me, where in the Bible does it say that? Also, aren't those who "fell to Satan" burning in hell? As opposed to heaven, where the righteous dwell?

Soon Armageddon will be brought in to cleanse the earth and humanity of all rebels who still live.


So anyone who doesn't fit your narrow worldview?

Satan will be taken out of circulation.


God could have done that a long time ago. Also, since he knew Satan would turn evil, why did he create Satan in the first place?

However, there is one set of circumstances left that Satan has top be given a fair chance to prove himself in, so he will not be destroyed at that time.


But God knew the outcome. There is no free will in the scenario your postulating.

The dead will be resurrected into Adam like bodies, taught, and given centuries to practice living Jehovah's way, and at the end of the prescribed period Satan will be let loose once again to try and prove his point this time on humans who had been trained and had been able to practice what they were taught.


So basically brainwash humans into following orders?

After a short while, any who fall for his tricks will be destroyed, along with Satan himself. The faithful will be allowed to live on, the kingdom will be handed back to his father by Christ, and all will be as it was originally planned.


But doesn't God love everyone? Shouldn't God also love Satan, for Satan is part of his creation. And, if God created Satan, and knew Satan was evil, God created evil.

The case will have been proved, and Jehovah's name fully vindicated from all accusation put up against him. No spirit being will ever be able to say "Ah but what if...." since all the "what ifs" will have been covered very thoroughly.


Like I said above, God created evil.

No other course of action would have been truly just, since for justice to be real it must apply as much to the guilty as to the innocent.


Many other actions would have been just, considering that God created evil in the first place. The least he could have done is remove it as early as possible.

Like it or not, that is the truth, and is the main theme of and reason for, the bible.

Yes, a flawed book that, in itself, has been the inspiration for much suffering, sorrow, and evil.
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MadCornishBiker
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5/5/2015 6:11:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 8:40:24 PM, Pase66 wrote:


Here is an error. The only standard you are using to judge apostasy vs. "actual" Christian is if they are part of JW. A Catholic would disagree, as would a Protestant. Here, you're setting up tenuous standards, with its basis in only what you agree with, and not taking the whole picture into consideration.

On the contrary my standard has always been, long before I had even heard of the JW, whether or not they teach what Christ taught, and the Apostles after him.

Only the JWs do as it turns out.

I follow only Christ, through scripture and the assistance I get from his use of holy spirit.




So he could "choose" to eliminate Satan, and thus evil. Since he has not, he is not omnibenevolent, and is thus not a God.

That is a faulty judgement, as well as a logical fallacy, based on only partial knowledge of the situation.

His current, and soon to end, permission of evil is based on his high standard of Justice, which ahs to apply to the guilty as well as the innocent.

Even the guilty must be given the opportunity to prove their case.

In fact his omni-benevolence, as you put it, extends to al, including Satan.

If it did not it would not be truly Omni-benevolent, since that means benevolence toward all, with no exceptions.




Since he only loves those who love him, he is petty, and shows favoritism towards those who love him.

That is not what I said. I said he loves all his creation. However I did miss a word out, and it should have read:

"He loves all of his creation, but obviously loves most, that part of it which chooses to love him, and to love what he loves.

You only have to read the Gospels, since Christ showed the same attitude.




Here you are assuming you know the will of a being that hasn't even been proven to exist. A logical fallacy.

Hardly an assumption because A) he has been proven to exist to all who are not too blind to accept the evidence that is before all of us. B) His word reveals his will to us, and that is for all of humanity to live forever on a paradise earth, enjoying eternal life in perfect health, peace and security. C) He actively wants us to get to know him as friends should.

That was how he created the earth to be, and Adam and Eve also, but they chose to throw it back in Jehovah's face.

Their role was to "fill the earth" with humans like themselves, and expand the Garden throughout the earth.

A very satisfying purpose.

However his son has been given the task of getting us back on course, and the next stage, clearing the earth of all of Satan's works, is soon to take place.


Jehovah knew from the instant he sinned that Satan was wrong, but not all of the angels, nor either Adam and Eve knew that. Therefore there was a case to be tested and proven.


So if God knew the future, couldn't he just have taken care of Satan then and there, and spare humanity thousands upon thousands of years worth of suffering? So, he let humanity suffer all because he wanted to prove a point? So, he is not omnibenevolent, and is thus, not a God.

No, because being Omni-benevolent, he ahs to show Satan the same justice he shows all, and give him the chance to prove his case. We are nearing the end of that chance now.

Omni-benevolence applies to all, or it is not Omni-benevolence. However that benevolence toward Satan and all who follow him cannot last past the point where Satan has failed thoroughly to prove his case.


Satan also issued a challenge as detailed in Job chapters 1 and 2 in which he stated that no human would willingly serve God unless he was fully protected from any harm, and also bribed to do so.

This too created an issue that needed to be proved.


So, since God could see into the future, he would know the outcome, and again, be able to spare humanity thousands of years worth of suffering.


No, because Justice not only has to be done, but has to be seen to be done



Jehovah isn't a God of justice. He is a petty God who feels the need to prove a point at the expense of his creation. That's not justice. Its very petty.

He doesn't need to prove anything, but justice demands that he allows Satan the opportunity to prove his case. That is true justice, summary justice such as you seem to be implying should have been carried out is no justice at all.




That he loves his creation, since he destroys evil and suffering. He is all powerful, since he can destroy evil and suffering. And he knows everything, for he knew evil (Satan) was wrong.

No it would not. Only by taking the long view can he show his love for his creation, and show us the respect we deserve, as well as the right to decide for ourselves whether or not we want to be ruled by him.




Jehovah already is a petty bully. He lets us suffer all because he wants to prove a point.

No, that is completely untrue, it is not him who has anything to prove.



You do realize that JW's have been predicting the end of the world for a long time, and they have been wrong ever since? There is no evidence that the world is going to end any time soon.


I do know they have been too impatient at times, however prophecy, and the evidence of it's fulfilment which is all around us if we care to recognise it, says that it cannot be an awful lot longer.

It will happen.

It has to happen to bring an end to suffering for all time.

Continued:
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/5/2015 6:12:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 8:40:24 PM, Pase66 wrote:



Continued from previous post.


Wow, that's a really detailed explanation of Armageddon. Tell me, where in the Bible does it say that? Also, aren't those who "fell to Satan" burning in hell? As opposed to heaven, where the righteous dwell?




The story of Armageddon appears in a number of prophecies, from Isaiah, Ezekiel and others. Revelations expands on what those prophecies tell us to an extent, but Armageddon is a whole other subject.

So anyone who doesn't fit your narrow worldview?

My world view is not as narrow as yours is, because mine includes Jehovah, Satan, the Angles, and the rest of creation. In fact my world view is a copy of God's. He sets the rules. He tells us what they are. We choose whether or not we wish to follow them.


God could have done that a long time ago. Also, since he knew Satan would turn evil, why did he create Satan in the first place?

He didn't create Satan.

Satan, just like Devil, is a title, not a name, and though he is also called Lucifer, there is no indication if that is his name either.

God created the Angels, and he created them all they same.

One of them got greedy and made himself into Satan and Devil, Just as Adam and Eve chose to make themselves rebels.



But God knew the outcome. There is no free will in the scenario your postulating.


IN fact, in the scenario I postulate there is extreme free will, some say too much. Satan, the Angles who followed him, Adam and Eve all exercised their free will wrongly.

It was their choice, and no-one made them.

Just as it is our choice today whether or not we accept Jehovah's sovereignty, and that of his son.

The dead will be resurrected into Adam like bodies, taught, and given centuries to practice living Jehovah's way, and at the end of the prescribed period Satan will be let loose once again to try and prove his point this time on humans who had been trained and had been able to practice what they were taught.


So basically brainwash humans into following orders?


No, it is a free choice.

They will be no more "brainwashed" by Jehovah's teachings, than you are by the teachings of Satan's world.

The truth is that we are all brainwashed, but some of us have chosen to be brainwashed by Jehovah's system not Satan's.

After a short while, any who fall for his tricks will be destroyed, along with Satan himself. The faithful will be allowed to live on, the kingdom will be handed back to his father by Christ, and all will be as it was originally planned.


But doesn't God love everyone? Shouldn't God also love Satan, for Satan is part of his creation. And, if God created Satan, and knew Satan was evil, God created evil.

No, Jehovah did not create evil, though that is what Satan wants you to think. He is like so many people who sin and say "But this is how God made me, it's his fault" It is every bit as much a lie as your statement is.

True when Jehovah trusted parts of his creation with free will he created the potential for evil, but the choice always was, and always will be with us.


The case will have been proved, and Jehovah's name fully vindicated from all accusation put up against him. No spirit being will ever be able to say "Ah but what if...." since all the "what ifs" will have been covered very thoroughly.


Like I said above, God created evil.


Like I said, no he did not. That is the hiding place of a moral coward, sorry.

No other course of action would have been truly just, since for justice to be real it must apply as much to the guilty as to the innocent.


Many other actions would have been just, considering that God created evil in the first place. The least he could have done is remove it as early as possible.


He is removing it as early as practical, even though he did not create it.

Like it or not, that is the truth, and is the main theme of and reason for, the bible.

Yes, a flawed book that, in itself, has been the inspiration for much suffering, sorrow, and evil.

Just because the words of scripture have been distorted to justify such thi9ngs does not mean the book itself is to blame, just those who abused it's teachings.

Scripture is not flawed, though human understanding of it all too frequently is. It continually proves scientifically, historically and prophetically accurate, you can either prove it for yourself, or not bother. Again the choice is yours.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
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5/5/2015 10:32:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Here are the main JW doctrines they teach.

Bible is God's Word and is truth
Bible is more reliable than tradition
God's name is Jehovah
Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans
Christ's one sacrifice is sufficient
Christ is not equal to God in Rank.
People God approves will receive eternal life
There is only one road to life
We are now in the 'time of the end'
Human death is due to Adam's sin
Hope for dead is resurrection
Adamic death will cease
New covenant made with spiritual Israel
Christ's congregation is built upon himself
Images must not be used in worship
Spiritism must be shunned
Satan is invisible ruler of world

Here is more of the same trash.

Christ is not equal to God because He is a creature.
Christ was first of God's creations
Christ died on a stake, not a cross
Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person
Christ's presence is in spirit
Kingdom under Christ will rule earth in righteousness and peace
Kingdom brings ideal living conditions to earth
Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated
God will destroy present system of things in the battle at Har-Magedon
Wicked will be eternally destroyed
The human soul ceases to exist at death
Hell is mankind's common grave
Only a little flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ
The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/5/2015 12:51:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/5/2015 10:32:06 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Here are the main JW doctrines they teach.

Bible is God's Word and is truth
Bible is more reliable than tradition
God's name is Jehovah
Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans
Christ's one sacrifice is sufficient
Christ is not equal to God in Rank.
People God approves will receive eternal life
There is only one road to life
We are now in the 'time of the end'
Human death is due to Adam's sin
Hope for dead is resurrection
Adamic death will cease
New covenant made with spiritual Israel
Christ's congregation is built upon himself
Images must not be used in worship
Spiritism must be shunned
Satan is invisible ruler of world


Here is more of the same trash.

Christ is not equal to God because He is a creature.
Christ was first of God's creations
Christ died on a stake, not a cross
Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person
Christ's presence is in spirit
Kingdom under Christ will rule earth in righteousness and peace
Kingdom brings ideal living conditions to earth
Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated
God will destroy present system of things in the battle at Har-Magedon
Wicked will be eternally destroyed
The human soul ceases to exist at death
Hell is mankind's common grave
Only a little flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ
The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God

Actually it's all scriptural truth.
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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5/5/2015 12:57:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/5/2015 12:51:07 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/5/2015 10:32:06 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Here are the main JW doctrines they teach.

Bible is God's Word and is truth
Bible is more reliable than tradition
God's name is Jehovah
Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans
Christ's one sacrifice is sufficient
Christ is not equal to God in Rank.
People God approves will receive eternal life
There is only one road to life
We are now in the 'time of the end'
Human death is due to Adam's sin
Hope for dead is resurrection
Adamic death will cease
New covenant made with spiritual Israel
Christ's congregation is built upon himself
Images must not be used in worship
Spiritism must be shunned
Satan is invisible ruler of world


Here is more of the same trash.

Christ is not equal to God because He is a creature.
Christ was first of God's creations
Christ died on a stake, not a cross
Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person
Christ's presence is in spirit
Kingdom under Christ will rule earth in righteousness and peace
Kingdom brings ideal living conditions to earth
Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated
God will destroy present system of things in the battle at Har-Magedon
Wicked will be eternally destroyed
The human soul ceases to exist at death
Hell is mankind's common grave
Only a little flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ
The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God

Actually it's all scriptural truth.

Straight out of sunday school.
annanicole
Posts: 19,793
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5/6/2015 2:21:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/5/2015 12:57:54 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/5/2015 12:51:07 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/5/2015 10:32:06 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Here are the main JW doctrines they teach.

Bible is God's Word and is truth
Bible is more reliable than tradition
God's name is Jehovah
Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans
Christ's one sacrifice is sufficient
Christ is not equal to God in Rank.
People God approves will receive eternal life
There is only one road to life
We are now in the 'time of the end'
Human death is due to Adam's sin
Hope for dead is resurrection
Adamic death will cease
New covenant made with spiritual Israel
Christ's congregation is built upon himself
Images must not be used in worship
Spiritism must be shunned
Satan is invisible ruler of world


Here is more of the same trash.

Christ is not equal to God because He is a creature.
Christ was first of God's creations
Christ died on a stake, not a cross
Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person
Christ's presence is in spirit
Kingdom under Christ will rule earth in righteousness and peace
Kingdom brings ideal living conditions to earth
Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated
God will destroy present system of things in the battle at Har-Magedon
Wicked will be eternally destroyed
The human soul ceases to exist at death
Hell is mankind's common grave
Only a little flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ
The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God

Actually it's all scriptural truth.

Straight out of sunday school.

Straight out of Brooklyn, where they teach "only what Christ and the apostles taught" - except, of course, when Christ and apostles screwed up. It's also a funny thing when a group teaches "only what Christ and the apostles taught", yet gives half-a-dozen contradictory definitions for the same word or phrase. Conclusion: Christ and the apostles must have been consummately reckless and confused.

Since the retort will be the same old "new light" BS, let me go ahead and state that at times the "new light" is nothing more than "old light" that was supposedly "corrected" decades earlier. Yep. They'll revert right back to an old definition that was canned fifty years earlier. That's not "light" at all. It's total darkness.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,240
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5/6/2015 5:09:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am sorry if I failed to answer it, though off hand I have no idea why.

The picture you describe of God is not a Christian view of him, it is an Apostate view of him.

The main that is missing from that description of Jehovah is his ability to choose.

.... then that would make His will arbitrary and subjective.

He has the power to do anything, if he chooses.

He has the power to know everything, if he chooses to.

He loves all of his creation, but obviously loves that part of it which chooses to love him, and to love what he loves.

... arbitrary....

Obviously Jehovah knows the past because he has observed it.

He knows the present since he observes that also.

He knows the future, as it relates to his plans and desires.

He can foretell the future of groups, though eh does not even attempt to know which individuals will become part of which group.

Defeating the purpose of free will, or at least that its possible.

Jehovah knew from the instant he sinned that Satan was wrong, but not all of the angels, nor either Adam and Eve knew that. Therefore there was a case to be tested and proven.

Not if He is omniscient.

Satan also issued a challenge as detailed in Job chapters 1 and 2 in which he stated that no human would willingly serve God unless he was fully protected from any harm, and also bribed to do so.


This too created an issue that needed to be proved.

Not if you are omniscient...

Being a God of justice Jehovah realised that ti was a question which needed answering top the extent whereby no-one could turn round and say "what if" and start it all up again.

Why exactly could no one else do this? That is the point of free will and learning, to observe failure and go about a different means.

Had Jehovah simply destroyed Satan and the rebellious angles what would that have proved?

More over whom would He have proven it too? Remember, the only ones left would be on His side, they already picked the right pony. If anything, that seems like the least reasonable and least "messy" means of conclusion.

It would simply have shown Jehovah to be an unreasoning bully, mor4e than happy to dispense punishment arbitrarily without "due process".

So... the Flood was... what? Killing all of Egypt's first born was what? Killing all of Sodom and Gomorrah was what? I don't recall "justice" being done in the way of due process for any of those Biblical accounts.

His perfect senses of Love Wisdom Justice and Mercy would not allow that to be the case.

.... um... what? He literally wiped every living thing off the face of the Earth save for a floating zoo, at the very least it was unfair to all the other animals, and you will have a hard time convincing me that literally every human some how gave over to evil, and that it was some how wholly the fault of humans that OTHER WORDLY CREATURES implanted themselves in the population.

Hence he gave Satan a time limit in which to do all he could, short of directly destroying mankind, or any individual, to prove his case.

Which makes one wonder whom had the winning plan...

We are near the end of that time period.

Supposedly. That number shifts, as has been demonstrated by various religious sects.

After which all who have suffered and died at Satan's hands will be compensated by being returned to the physical state that Adam and Eve enjoyed, and given the same chance of eternal life in perfect health and perfect peace that was the original plan. Soon Armageddon will be brought in to cleanse the earth and humanity of all rebels who still live. Satan will be taken out of circulation.

And then Satan will just again pull the trump card: "This confusion WAS my plan. I took it from you, mucked it up, and now you must use your omnipotence to right the ship, your creation cannot do it on its own."


However, there is one set of circumstances left that Satan has top be given a fair chance to prove himself in, so he will not be destroyed at that time.


The dead will be resurrected into Adam like bodies, taught, and given centuries to practice living Jehovah's way, and at the end of the prescribed period Satan will be let loose once again to try and prove his point this time on humans who had been trained and had been able to practice what they were taught. After a short while, any who fall for his tricks will be destroyed, along with Satan himself. The faithful will be allowed to live on, the kingdom will be handed back to his father by Christ, and all will be as it was originally planned.

If even ONE soul goes the way of Satan after such obvious demonstration, he still wins! What more proof would you need than "I was dead, but now am Alive, and alive thanks to Jehovah".

The case will have been proved, and Jehovah's name fully vindicated from all accusation put up against him. No spirit being will ever be able to say "Ah but what if...." since all the "what ifs" will have been covered very thoroughly.

Again, how exactly does one angel failing in a host of thousands indicate "thoroughly", and more over, what sense of this plan does it matter to some one with omnipotence: angels weren't needed to begin with.

No other course of action would have been truly just, since for justice to be real it must apply as much to the guilty as to the innocent.

... so flood the earth, rain down fire on a city, kill all the first born...

Like it or not, that is the truth, and is the main theme of and reason for, the bible.

Is God coherent? Serious question. Does God have a clue as to the world around Him? What are the purpose of angels if I am omnipotent? It would seem all this is a rather dramatic play for His amusement. Surely He must know what Satan will have done before his creation, will have known the ramifications, who would win, etc etc, and surely, Satan knew all this post creation of his creator... Of course, if God knew this is what Satan would do before He created him... why create him? There is no reason to prove that which need not be proven, just cut the case off before it develops.

The more and more I hear the religious speak, the more and more I am convinced that all of this is just for His amusement or benefit less than a philosophy on how to live. In promoting the supposed creator, and trying to demonstrate His infallibility, the better track to take is to defend the message of what one should do hear on Earth without relying on the authority behind it.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
MadCornishBiker
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5/6/2015 7:30:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 2:21:15 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/5/2015 12:57:54 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/5/2015 12:51:07 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/5/2015 10:32:06 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Here are the main JW doctrines they teach.

Bible is God's Word and is truth
Bible is more reliable than tradition
God's name is Jehovah
Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans
Christ's one sacrifice is sufficient
Christ is not equal to God in Rank.
People God approves will receive eternal life
There is only one road to life
We are now in the 'time of the end'
Human death is due to Adam's sin
Hope for dead is resurrection
Adamic death will cease
New covenant made with spiritual Israel
Christ's congregation is built upon himself
Images must not be used in worship
Spiritism must be shunned
Satan is invisible ruler of world


Here is more of the same trash.

Christ is not equal to God because He is a creature.
Christ was first of God's creations
Christ died on a stake, not a cross
Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person
Christ's presence is in spirit
Kingdom under Christ will rule earth in righteousness and peace
Kingdom brings ideal living conditions to earth
Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated
God will destroy present system of things in the battle at Har-Magedon
Wicked will be eternally destroyed
The human soul ceases to exist at death
Hell is mankind's common grave
Only a little flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ
The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God

Actually it's all scriptural truth.

Straight out of sunday school.

Straight out of Brooklyn, where they teach "only what Christ and the apostles taught" - except, of course, when Christ and apostles screwed up. It's also a funny thing when a group teaches "only what Christ and the apostles taught", yet gives half-a-dozen contradictory definitions for the same word or phrase. Conclusion: Christ and the apostles must have been consummately reckless and confused.


Christ and the Apostles did not "screw up" in any of their teachings. except Peter, once and Paul took him publicly to task for that as you know.

They made the occasional inaccurate statement because they did not have full knowledge of what they were making the statement about, scripture shows that frankly and openly. But they made no mistakes in what they taught.
Since the retort will be the same old "new light" BS, let me go ahead and state that at times the "new light" is nothing more than "old light" that was supposedly "corrected" decades earlier. Yep. They'll revert right back to an old definition that was canned fifty years earlier. That's not "light" at all. It's total darkness.

Again you lie, and twist things to say what you want them to say.

It still stands that they taught as their teachings, exactly what scripture told them, and still do.

The fact that they also made misleading statements in ignorance only shows that at that time Jehovah had not revealed the truth to them.

Where they have taught in error, like Peter they were corrected often embarrassingly.

Ask yourself why scripture reveals that Peter made such a serious error in teaching?

Why did Jehovah want it revealed and not hidden?

What are we meant to learn from it?

because every word in scripture is there fore us to learn from.
MadCornishBiker
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5/6/2015 8:03:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 5:09:48 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:


.... then that would make His will arbitrary and subjective.

Subjective to his desires and his original plan, yes.

Arbitrary? No, everything is scripture is revealed for a reason, and it was also all done for a reason, nothing arbitrary about it at all, as any genuine student of scripture knows.


... arbitrary....

No, not in the least, the results of that are down to the people, not him.

There are also good and practical reasons for that, which have been the same from the beginning, and always will be.



Defeating the purpose of free will, or at least that its possible.

Not at all.

Freedom with no limits is just a word.

Free will is free will, but has to be used wisely for the sake of others.

Jehovah only wants those who are prepared to accept the limitations that brings.

Just as he applies the same limitations to himself.



Not if He is omniscient.

I hate that word, and it is certainly not a scriptural teaching.

The point is that Jehovah knows all he wants to know, and ahs the power to know everything, if that power were not subject to the constraints he imposes upon himself.




Not if you are omniscient...

See my reply above.



Why exactly could no one else do this? That is the point of free will and learning, to observe failure and go about a different means.

Because there will be 7,000 years worth of evidence to prove that it would not work, so if anyone is stupid enough to try Jehovah has the evidence to destroy them summarily and not offend true justice.



More over whom would He have proven it too? Remember, the only ones left would be on His side, they already picked the right pony. If anything, that seems like the least reasonable and least "messy" means of conclusion.

The evidence is for the faithful Angels, and we humans. It is powerful evidence if people choose to accept it for what it is.



So... the Flood was... what? Killing all of Egypt's first born was what? Killing all of Sodom and Gomorrah was what? I don't recall "justice" being done in the way of due process for any of those Biblical accounts.

There are still some questions like that to be answered to those punished, and they will be answered in the resurrection.

As for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Do you honestly believed that faithful Lot would have kept his mouth shut?

No, as a faithful worshipper of Jehovah everyone around would have been told that what they w ere doing was against God's word.

Just like Noah, called in scripture a Preacher of Righteousness, would have warned the people of his time.

If they didn't listen, just like those who aren't listening to Jehovah's warnings spread by his people, today, then in effect they are adversely judging themselves, by refusing to listen they are declaring their lack of interest in what Jehovah ahs to say. Just like those pre-flood, and in Sodom and Gomorrah.



.... um... what? He literally wiped every living thing off the face of the Earth save for a floating zoo, at the very least it was unfair to all the other animals, and you will have a hard time convincing me that literally every human some how gave over to evil, and that it was some how wholly the fault of humans that OTHER WORDLY CREATURES implanted themselves in the population.

The animals are just that, animals, they do not have the same importance as humans.

No it wasn't the fault of the humans that the wicked angels implanted themselves amongst them. It was however their fault that they listened and followed them into doing what is wrong.

We all have the ability to asses things for ourselves, if we choose not to, or if we bias that opinion in any way, then we are to blame and no-one else.

It's called Personal Responsibility.


Which makes one wonder whom had the winning plan...

Well those who have doubted that Jehovah has the winning plan will soon find out their error, especially their error in making 100% sure for themselves by an unbiased study of his word.


Supposedly. That number shifts, as has been demonstrated by various religious sects.

Oh we are clearly in it, the dispute amongst those who had a glimmer of the truth has been about how far into it, and how much is left..

History does in fact, to those of us with the eyes top see and ears to hear, reveal the truth of that, it just can't reveal how much is left.



And then Satan will just again pull the trump card: "This confusion WAS my plan. I took it from you, mucked it up, and now you must use your omnipotence to right the ship, your creation cannot do it on its own."

Well if anyone is daft enough to believe that after studying the evidence carefully that will most definitely be their problem. T'ain't no trump card.





If even ONE soul goes the way of Satan after such obvious demonstration, he still wins! What more proof would you need than "I was dead, but now am Alive, and alive thanks to Jehovah".

No, he doesn't, because his challenge was that no man will willingly serve God, so if even one does, in every set of circumstances imaginable, Satan has lost.


Again, how exactly does one angel failing in a host of thousands indicate "thoroughly", and more over, what sense of this plan does it matter to some one with omnipotence: angels weren't needed to begin with.

Nothing was needed, but Jehovah desired to create what he did, and he desired to do so in a purposeful way. He will achieve that purpose, none can stop him.
The evidence matters to Jehovah because he is a God of justice and mercy, not a tyrannical dictator. He doesn't want mindless slaves, he wants willing servants, happy to do their bit.

Is God coherent? Serious question. Does God have a clue as to the world around Him? What are the purpose of angels if I am omnipotent? It would seem all this is a rather dramatic play for His amusement. Surely He must know what Satan will have done before his creation, will have known the ramifications, who would win, etc etc, and surely, Satan knew all this post creation of his creator... Of course, if God knew this is what Satan would do before He created him... why create him? There is no reason to prove that which need not be proven, just cut the case off before it develops.

Coherent, logical, reasonable and practical. Jehovah is all these things and more besides.


The more and more I hear the religious speak, the more and more I am convinced that all of this is just for His amusement or benefit less than a philosophy on how to live. In promoting the supposed creator, and trying to demonstrate His infallibility, the better track to take is to defend the message of what one should do hear on Earth without relying on the authority behind it.

Well if you listen only to Apostates or false religionists you would get that impression, because what they teach is all for Satan's amusement and revenge.

Only Jehovah's people teach truth to bring life to everyone.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/6/2015 8:05:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 2:21:15 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/5/2015 12:57:54 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/5/2015 12:51:07 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/5/2015 10:32:06 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Here are the main JW doctrines they teach.

Bible is God's Word and is truth
Bible is more reliable than tradition
God's name is Jehovah
Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans
Christ's one sacrifice is sufficient
Christ is not equal to God in Rank.
People God approves will receive eternal life
There is only one road to life
We are now in the 'time of the end'
Human death is due to Adam's sin
Hope for dead is resurrection
Adamic death will cease
New covenant made with spiritual Israel
Christ's congregation is built upon himself
Images must not be used in worship
Spiritism must be shunned
Satan is invisible ruler of world


Here is more of the same trash.

Christ is not equal to God because He is a creature.
Christ was first of God's creations
Christ died on a stake, not a cross
Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person
Christ's presence is in spirit
Kingdom under Christ will rule earth in righteousness and peace
Kingdom brings ideal living conditions to earth
Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated
God will destroy present system of things in the battle at Har-Magedon
Wicked will be eternally destroyed
The human soul ceases to exist at death
Hell is mankind's common grave
Only a little flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ
The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God

Actually it's all scriptural truth.

Straight out of sunday school.

Straight out of Brooklyn, where they teach "only what Christ and the apostles taught" - except, of course, when Christ and apostles screwed up. It's also a funny thing when a group teaches "only what Christ and the apostles taught", yet gives half-a-dozen contradictory definitions for the same word or phrase. Conclusion: Christ and the apostles must have been consummately reckless and confused.

Since the retort will be the same old "new light" BS, let me go ahead and state that at times the "new light" is nothing more than "old light" that was supposedly "corrected" decades earlier. Yep. They'll revert right back to an old definition that was canned fifty years earlier. That's not "light" at all. It's total darkness.

Lol, this is an exact copy of your lies posted elsewhere.

It can only get the same response so I suggest anyone interested look it up.

It is the way God works, "need to know basis", and always has.
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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5/6/2015 8:21:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 8:03:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Well if you listen only to Apostates or false religionists

Then you will FOLLOW the bible produced by the Catholics as you do.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/6/2015 9:38:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 8:21:18 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/6/2015 8:03:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Well if you listen only to Apostates or false religionists

Then you will FOLLOW the bible produced by the Catholics as you do.

Catholics don't even follow the bibles they produced, lol. God influenced them to produce them, and they have spent ever since trying to destroy them, hide them from the people, and lately, ignoring them.

That's why when the time comes they will have no excuses.
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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5/6/2015 9:47:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 9:38:48 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/6/2015 8:21:18 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/6/2015 8:03:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Well if you listen only to Apostates or false religionists

Then you will FOLLOW the bible produced by the Catholics as you do.

Catholics don't even follow the bibles they produced, lol.
Why would they? They produced the book to support their religion. The fact that some took it seriously 1300yrs later and created many new religions around it is just testament to the idiocy of man.
God influenced them to produce them,
God was in direct contact with the Apostates and controlled them to produce a book that in 1200yrs he would control other Apostates to change because his first book was wrong.
Does your god ever get anything RIGHT?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/6/2015 12:29:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 9:47:43 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:38:48 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/6/2015 8:21:18 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/6/2015 8:03:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Well if you listen only to Apostates or false religionists

Then you will FOLLOW the bible produced by the Catholics as you do.

Catholics don't even follow the bibles they produced, lol.
Why would they? They produced the book to support their religion. The fact that some took it seriously 1300yrs later and created many new religions around it is just testament to the idiocy of man.

No, they produced it because God wanted them to, it has never supported their teachings, which is why the continually wanted to destroy or hide it for so long.

God influenced them to produce them,
God was in direct contact with the Apostates and controlled them to produce a book that in 1200yrs he would control other Apostates to change because his first book was wrong.

No he didn't control them, he influenced them, there is a lot of difference.

Does your god ever get anything RIGHT?

God always gets everything right, it is we stupid mortals, of which you are a foremost example, who get things wrong..
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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5/6/2015 1:13:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 12:29:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:47:43 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:38:48 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/6/2015 8:21:18 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/6/2015 8:03:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Well if you listen only to Apostates or false religionists

Then you will FOLLOW the bible produced by the Catholics as you do.

Catholics don't even follow the bibles they produced, lol.
Why would they? They produced the book to support their religion. The fact that some took it seriously 1300yrs later and created many new religions around it is just testament to the idiocy of man.

No, they produced it because God wanted them to, it has never supported their teachings, which is why the continually wanted to destroy or hide it for so long.

God influenced them to produce them,
God was in direct contact with the Apostates and controlled them to produce a book that in 1200yrs he would control other Apostates to change because his first book was wrong.

No he didn't control them, he influenced them, there is a lot of difference.


Does your god ever get anything RIGHT?

God always gets everything right, it is we stupid mortals, of which you are a foremost example, who get things wrong..

Can you confirm that with your sunday school teacher and get back to me?
It sounds like your feeble attempts to assuage your childish fears to me.
You struggle with the fact that your most holy book is the product of APOSTATES.
You've never been able to reconcile that with your utter dependence upon the great book of apostasy.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/6/2015 1:23:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 1:13:00 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/6/2015 12:29:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:47:43 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:38:48 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/6/2015 8:21:18 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/6/2015 8:03:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Well if you listen only to Apostates or false religionists

Then you will FOLLOW the bible produced by the Catholics as you do.

Catholics don't even follow the bibles they produced, lol.
Why would they? They produced the book to support their religion. The fact that some took it seriously 1300yrs later and created many new religions around it is just testament to the idiocy of man.

No, they produced it because God wanted them to, it has never supported their teachings, which is why the continually wanted to destroy or hide it for so long.

God influenced them to produce them,
God was in direct contact with the Apostates and controlled them to produce a book that in 1200yrs he would control other Apostates to change because his first book was wrong.

No he didn't control them, he influenced them, there is a lot of difference.


Does your god ever get anything RIGHT?

God always gets everything right, it is we stupid mortals, of which you are a foremost example, who get things wrong..

Can you confirm that with your sunday school teacher and get back to me?
It sounds like your feeble attempts to assuage your childish fears to me.
You struggle with the fact that your most holy book is the product of APOSTATES.
You've never been able to reconcile that with your utter dependence upon the great book of apostasy.

I don't need to go to any human.

I simply read the bible and see how accurately it fits with what's going on round me.
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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5/6/2015 1:28:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 1:23:15 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/6/2015 1:13:00 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/6/2015 12:29:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:47:43 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:38:48 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/6/2015 8:21:18 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/6/2015 8:03:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Well if you listen only to Apostates or false religionists

Then you will FOLLOW the bible produced by the Catholics as you do.

Catholics don't even follow the bibles they produced, lol.
Why would they? They produced the book to support their religion. The fact that some took it seriously 1300yrs later and created many new religions around it is just testament to the idiocy of man.

No, they produced it because God wanted them to, it has never supported their teachings, which is why the continually wanted to destroy or hide it for so long.

God influenced them to produce them,
God was in direct contact with the Apostates and controlled them to produce a book that in 1200yrs he would control other Apostates to change because his first book was wrong.

No he didn't control them, he influenced them, there is a lot of difference.


Does your god ever get anything RIGHT?

God always gets everything right, it is we stupid mortals, of which you are a foremost example, who get things wrong..

Can you confirm that with your sunday school teacher and get back to me?
It sounds like your feeble attempts to assuage your childish fears to me.
You struggle with the fact that your most holy book is the product of APOSTATES.
You've never been able to reconcile that with your utter dependence upon the great book of apostasy.

I don't need to go to any human.

I simply read the bible and see how accurately it fits with what's going on round me.

The bible is the work of the satan led apostates according to you, so you are heavily involved with satan and his demons.
Your posts tend to support your confession.
YoshiBoy13
Posts: 96
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5/6/2015 1:40:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 8:03:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Only Jehovah's people teach truth to bring life to everyone.
Hmm... Maths teachers, per chance?
They teach universal truths (such as pythagoras's theorem, the quadratic formula, etc.) which can be used in things such as budgeting to bring life in the form of not going broke and starving to death - to all who enter the education system.
How about this.
If you shoot yourself in the head with a pistol loaded with real bullets, you will die.
I've now brought truth - in the form of talking about guns and the deadliness thereof - and life - in the form of warning not to shoot themselves in the face.
I have taught truth to bring life to everyone.
And I'm an atheist.
- Just because you're narrow-minded doesn't mean you're always right.
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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5/6/2015 2:13:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 1:40:23 PM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
At 5/6/2015 8:03:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Only Jehovah's people teach truth to bring life to everyone.
Hmm... Maths teachers, per chance?
They teach universal truths (such as pythagoras's theorem, the quadratic formula, etc.) which can be used in things such as budgeting to bring life in the form of not going broke and starving to death - to all who enter the education system.
How about this.
If you shoot yourself in the head with a pistol loaded with real bullets, you will die.
I've now brought truth - in the form of talking about guns and the deadliness thereof - and life - in the form of warning not to shoot themselves in the face.
I have taught truth to bring life to everyone.
And I'm an atheist.

need a like button.
lol
annanicole
Posts: 19,793
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5/6/2015 3:16:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 7:30:55 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/6/2015 2:21:15 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/5/2015 12:57:54 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/5/2015 12:51:07 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/5/2015 10:32:06 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Here are the main JW doctrines they teach.

Bible is God's Word and is truth
Bible is more reliable than tradition
God's name is Jehovah
Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans
Christ's one sacrifice is sufficient
Christ is not equal to God in Rank.
People God approves will receive eternal life
There is only one road to life
We are now in the 'time of the end'
Human death is due to Adam's sin
Hope for dead is resurrection
Adamic death will cease
New covenant made with spiritual Israel
Christ's congregation is built upon himself
Images must not be used in worship
Spiritism must be shunned
Satan is invisible ruler of world


Here is more of the same trash.

Christ is not equal to God because He is a creature.
Christ was first of God's creations
Christ died on a stake, not a cross
Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person
Christ's presence is in spirit
Kingdom under Christ will rule earth in righteousness and peace
Kingdom brings ideal living conditions to earth
Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated
God will destroy present system of things in the battle at Har-Magedon
Wicked will be eternally destroyed
The human soul ceases to exist at death
Hell is mankind's common grave
Only a little flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ
The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God

Actually it's all scriptural truth.

Straight out of sunday school.

Straight out of Brooklyn, where they teach "only what Christ and the apostles taught" - except, of course, when Christ and apostles screwed up. It's also a funny thing when a group teaches "only what Christ and the apostles taught", yet gives half-a-dozen contradictory definitions for the same word or phrase. Conclusion: Christ and the apostles must have been consummately reckless and confused.


Christ and the Apostles did not "screw up" in any of their teachings. except .....

EXCEPT? LMAO! According to your wild BotchTowerish theories, they screwed frequently, either due to anger ... or ignorance ... or just shooting off at the mouth. Precisely who all made gross errors, according to you, in their writings or oral statements? Well, to begin with, Jesus did! Then Luke. Then Paul. Don't forget John. In fact, as per you, they all did!

They made the occasional inaccurate statement because they did not have full knowledge of what they were making the statement about, scripture shows that frankly and openly. But they made no mistakes in what they taught.

Look at the tard trying again to walk that non-existent line between "made inaccurate statements" but "no mistake in what they taught." Such isn't even worthy of another response.

Since the retort will be the same old "new light" BS, let me go ahead and state that at times the "new light" is nothing more than "old light" that was supposedly "corrected" decades earlier. Yep. They'll revert right back to an old definition that was canned fifty years earlier. That's not "light" at all. It's total darkness.

Again you lie, and twist things to say what you want them to say.

It still stands that they taught as their teachings, exactly what scripture told them, and still do.

Then scripture evidently "told" them one thing, followed by "told" them another thing, then "told" them to flip-flop right back to the first thing. And, no, I don't have to twist: all I have to do is copy and paste their own multiple contradictory statements.


Why did Jehovah want it revealed and not hidden?

Oh, it was already revealed. The BotchTower just botched it up - and continues to do so. Would you like to see how many times they've botched the meaning of "this generation"? Would like to see how many times they've said the phrase applied only to the anointed, then to worldly people, then back to the anointed, then back again? Would you like to see how many times "God's spirit-filled organization" has given the world the "clear, beyond doubt" meaning - only to turn around and deny the same meaning ten or twenty years later?

I think I counted TEN flip-flops and modifications on the phrase "this generation" in the last 100 years.

By 2010, they had made up a new one:

"Jesus evidently meant that the lives of the anointed ones who were on hand when the sign began to be evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of the other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. We do not know the exact length of "this generation," but it includes these two groups whose lives overlap. Even though the anointed vary in age, those in the two groups constituting the generation are contemporaries during the part of the last days. How comforting it is to know that the younger anointed contemporaries of those older anointed ones who discerned the sign when it became evident beginning in 1914 will not die off before the great tribulation starts!" - Watchtower 2010 June 15 p.5

What BS! What nonsense! Suddenly the overlap of two generations is defined as ONE generation! LMAO @ that. And old Mr. Barr died right after he read off that crap. Any Biblical basis, from Genesis to Revelation, for such a re-definition? Of course not! Once again, they made it up. Why? Well, they are concerned that if the true meaning of "this generation" is applied, their 1914 folly is exposed for what it is.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
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5/6/2015 4:27:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 1:40:23 PM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
At 5/6/2015 8:03:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Only Jehovah's people teach truth to bring life to everyone.
Hmm... Maths teachers, per chance?
They teach universal truths (such as pythagoras's theorem, the quadratic formula, etc.) which can be used in things such as budgeting to bring life in the form of not going broke and starving to death - to all who enter the education system.
How about this.
If you shoot yourself in the head with a pistol loaded with real bullets, you will die.

Yes, but then there is always the resurrection, for you to live again in. Unless of course you are just shooting yourself to get an early ticket.

Don't forget, there are two deaths.

The death we experience at the moment which is a dreamless sleep in effect from which we are awoken in the resurrection.

The second death (Lake of Fire or Gehenna) which is the symbol of complete an irreversible destruction, and into which death and the grave (Hell/Hades/Sheol) are hurled

I've now brought truth - in the form of talking about guns and the deadliness thereof - and life - in the form of warning not to shoot themselves in the face.
I have taught truth to bring life to everyone.
And I'm an atheist.

You have not brought the "Real life" to anyone, just shown them one way to extend this life.

The real life is eternal, this one is only short.
MadCornishBiker
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5/6/2015 4:41:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 3:16:59 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/6/2015 7:30:55 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

EXCEPT? LMAO! According to your wild BotchTowerish theories, they screwed frequently, either due to anger ... or ignorance ... or just shooting off at the mouth. Precisely who all made gross errors, according to you, in their writings or oral statements? Well, to begin with, Jesus did! Then Luke. Then Paul. Don't forget John. In fact, as per you, they all did!

They made the occasional inaccurate statement because they did not have full knowledge of what they were making the statement about, scripture shows that frankly and openly. But they made no mistakes in what they taught.

Look at the tard trying again to walk that non-existent line between "made inaccurate statements" but "no mistake in what they taught." Such isn't even worthy of another response.


Since the retort will be the same old "new light" BS, let me go ahead and state that at times the "new light" is nothing more than "old light" that was supposedly "corrected" decades earlier. Yep. They'll revert right back to an old definition that was canned fifty years earlier. That's not "light" at all. It's total darkness.

Again you lie, and twist things to say what you want them to say.

It still stands that they taught as their teachings, exactly what scripture told them, and still do.

Then scripture evidently "told" them one thing, followed by "told" them another thing, then "told" them to flip-flop right back to the first thing. And, no, I don't have to twist: all I have to do is copy and paste their own multiple contradictory statements.


Why did Jehovah want it revealed and not hidden?

Oh, it was already revealed. The BotchTower just botched it up - and continues to do so. Would you like to see how many times they've botched the meaning of "this generation"? Would like to see how many times they've said the phrase applied only to the anointed, then to worldly people, then back to the anointed, then back again? Would you like to see how many times "God's spirit-filled organization" has given the world the "clear, beyond doubt" meaning - only to turn around and deny the same meaning ten or twenty years later?

I think I counted TEN flip-flops and modifications on the phrase "this generation" in the last 100 years.

By 2010, they had made up a new one:

"Jesus evidently meant that the lives of the anointed ones who were on hand when the sign began to be evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of the other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. We do not know the exact length of "this generation," but it includes these two groups whose lives overlap. Even though the anointed vary in age, those in the two groups constituting the generation are contemporaries during the part of the last days. How comforting it is to know that the younger anointed contemporaries of those older anointed ones who discerned the sign when it became evident beginning in 1914 will not die off before the great tribulation starts!" - Watchtower 2010 June 15 p.5

What BS! What nonsense! Suddenly the overlap of two generations is defined as ONE generation! LMAO @ that. And old Mr. Barr died right after he read off that crap. Any Biblical basis, from Genesis to Revelation, for such a re-definition? Of course not! Once again, they made it up. Why? Well, they are concerned that if the true meaning of "this generation" is applied, their 1914 folly is exposed for what it is.

No Anna, as always you have, probably deliberately, misunderstood.

The 1914 generation was the one that saw the start of things, but we have yet to see the end of them.

And don't forget, for a generation not to pass away there only has to be one member surviving. It hasn't passed away until all are dead, whatever the means of it's passing.

Actually, there is a biblical basis for all their teachings, and even statements like that, though I admit the biblical basis for that statement is a little tenuous, but it still could prove true.

However I suspect they are not yet fully awake to two things:

1: There is no scriptural reason for the generation alive at the time of the end of the Gentile times to be alive at Armageddon, certainly Christ makes no mention of that in his sign.

2: However in his sign he does say the "generation that sees all these things", and there by hangs the problem.

Whilst it is true that the 1914 generation did see the start of the vast majority of the signs it may not see the end of them,.

They also saw the start of the fulfilment of Matthew 24:14, and have been watching or assisting in it's fulfilment..

However it is the end of that preaching that signals the very close proximity of Armageddon, and whilst it is indeed being preached in all the inhabited earth, we cannot yet say it has been preached in all the inhabited earth.

However, 3: We don't know how and the tribulation has to get, or who quickly it will develop to that level.

We do know that the last of the 144,000 has to die first, and you can guarantee Satan will get some ringers in to stop us realising when that has been achieved. We also know that the tribulation has to reach the worst that has ever been seen, bad enough to threaten all life on earth, though in fact we are already well down that road.

Hence, as Jesus said, it will come on us like a thief in the night
annanicole
Posts: 19,793
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5/6/2015 7:26:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 4:41:46 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/6/2015 3:16:59 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/6/2015 7:30:55 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

EXCEPT? LMAO! According to your wild BotchTowerish theories, they screwed frequently, either due to anger ... or ignorance ... or just shooting off at the mouth. Precisely who all made gross errors, according to you, in their writings or oral statements? Well, to begin with, Jesus did! Then Luke. Then Paul. Don't forget John. In fact, as per you, they all did!

They made the occasional inaccurate statement because they did not have full knowledge of what they were making the statement about, scripture shows that frankly and openly. But they made no mistakes in what they taught.

Look at the tard trying again to walk that non-existent line between "made inaccurate statements" but "no mistake in what they taught." Such isn't even worthy of another response.


Since the retort will be the same old "new light" BS, let me go ahead and state that at times the "new light" is nothing more than "old light" that was supposedly "corrected" decades earlier. Yep. They'll revert right back to an old definition that was canned fifty years earlier. That's not "light" at all. It's total darkness.

Again you lie, and twist things to say what you want them to say.

It still stands that they taught as their teachings, exactly what scripture told them, and still do.

Then scripture evidently "told" them one thing, followed by "told" them another thing, then "told" them to flip-flop right back to the first thing. And, no, I don't have to twist: all I have to do is copy and paste their own multiple contradictory statements.


Why did Jehovah want it revealed and not hidden?

Oh, it was already revealed. The BotchTower just botched it up - and continues to do so. Would you like to see how many times they've botched the meaning of "this generation"? Would like to see how many times they've said the phrase applied only to the anointed, then to worldly people, then back to the anointed, then back again? Would you like to see how many times "God's spirit-filled organization" has given the world the "clear, beyond doubt" meaning - only to turn around and deny the same meaning ten or twenty years later?

I think I counted TEN flip-flops and modifications on the phrase "this generation" in the last 100 years.

By 2010, they had made up a new one:

"Jesus evidently meant that the lives of the anointed ones who were on hand when the sign began to be evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of the other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. We do not know the exact length of "this generation," but it includes these two groups whose lives overlap. Even though the anointed vary in age, those in the two groups constituting the generation are contemporaries during the part of the last days. How comforting it is to know that the younger anointed contemporaries of those older anointed ones who discerned the sign when it became evident beginning in 1914 will not die off before the great tribulation starts!" - Watchtower 2010 June 15 p.5

What BS! What nonsense! Suddenly the overlap of two generations is defined as ONE generation! LMAO @ that. And old Mr. Barr died right after he read off that crap. Any Biblical basis, from Genesis to Revelation, for such a re-definition? Of course not! Once again, they made it up. Why? Well, they are concerned that if the true meaning of "this generation" is applied, their 1914 folly is exposed for what it is.

No Anna, as always you have, probably deliberately, misunderstood.

The 1914 generation was the one that saw the start of things, but we have yet to see the end of them.

And don't forget, for a generation not to pass away there only has to be one member surviving. It hasn't passed away until all are dead, whatever the means of it's passing.

Actually, there is a biblical basis for all their teachings, and even statements like that, though I admit the biblical basis for that statement is a little tenuous, but it still could prove true.

Then by all means, do so. I've yet to see a "Biblical basis" for such a definition of generation.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
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5/6/2015 10:58:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/4/2015 5:11:21 PM, Pase66 wrote:
In a previous forum, he never answered my statement. Here, I will post it again.

"Now, God is God for a reason. In the Christian (and JW's) perspective, he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent (all loving), so basically all powerful. Now, omniscient means to know know everything. Thus, it follows that God would know the past, present, and future, for those three fall under the category of "everything". Now, it would be reasoned that God would know Satan is wrong, since he knows the future. Now, if God knew Satan is wrong, he could just destroy Satan and destroy evil, for he is omnipotent (having unlimited power and being able to do anything). Now, if God did not destroy Satan, but knew Satan is wrong, he is not omnipotent, and is thus, not a God. If God could destroy Satan, but did not know Satan is wrong, than he is not omniscient, and is thus, not a God. Now, if God knew Satan is wrong, and could destroy Satan (thus destroying all evil), but did not, then God is not omnibenevolent, and thus, is not a God."

I apologize as I realize I am jumping into a conversation but have not read the comments beforehand. Most the time it is just people getting upset so I'm hoping to give a simplistic answer to this and maybe help some understanding here. Forgive me if I seem a little prideful, I am simply not in the mood to read some jargon that will likely result in some pointless arguing. I guess that's what I'm doing too as well though....yeah...hope you can forgive me and my more eccentric attitude. Anyway, here we go:

1. You do make a valid deduction that God is:
a. Omnibenevolent
b. Omniscient
c. Omnipotent
2. You make the deduction that if God cannot be all three. This, however, is false. Let me explain. Let is put ourselves in the shoes of God right before the war in Heaven. I know I am assuming you know some history here and if you don't, please feel free to ask. When the war in Heaven started, it was because of the argument over free will. A will that allows us to choose right from wrong, God or Satan. to make this understandable under each characteristic I'll break this down:

a. For omnibenevolence: God does love us but also gives us free will. You make the point that could have destroyed all evil. And He can at any point and time. The problem is that this is the very thing that the war in Heaven was about. Satan promised to save everyone because there would be no free will. The problem is that no one would progress. We would all have no understanding of good and bad, pain and joy, happiness and sadness. All of these things wouldn't even register. In Layman's terms, there cannot be good without evil. To destroy evil, without having had to experience it, would make the whole experience on Earth pointless. We would be as Adam and Eve, forever stuck in a limbo like state where all we know is what we are told. The idea that it was an easy decision to give us free will is not what I believe either. As a matter of fact, 1/3 of Heaven followed Satan because they though it was a poor idea. We also have had many people throughout time who have used their free will to choose to be against God. This is one of the most treasured abilities we have, however. Simply to be able to choose is something that is worth all the trouble that must be endured now.

b. The argument you make against omniscience is closely related to omnibenevolence. I will, however, still explain this to the best of my abilities. Omniscience is still available as a characteristic for God as, now assuming He is omnibenevolent, He choose to allow Satan to choose as he did for the sake of allowing us to choose as well. He knew, and knows, that our free will is not something we can go without. It is a necessity and so even with the known eventuality that Satan would fall, He had to allow it to happen. Without the events leading up to Adam and Eve eating the fruit, no one beyond Adam and Eve would ever had been born and all our time here, disregarding our nonexistence, is pointless due to the fact that none of it was chosen by us. There is an excellent parable Jesus made regarding this very thing that was called the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares. In short, a man has a field with Wheat but his enemy has sewn Tares into the Wheat. Tares look exactly like Wheat and so the master said to let them grow together but when all are to be harvested, the Tares can be differentiated from the Wheat and will be removed. This can be applied as the idea that we all here together. The good and bad are all here. The main difference with us, however, is we are not born as just "Wheat" or "Tares" but have the choice to choose one or the other. This maintains God's omniscience as He knew what must come to pass in order to allow for you, me, and everyone who has, is, or will exist.

c. Omnipotent is a shorter one to discuss as the previous two were so closely connected to this as well. Still, I will do my best. God remains omnipotent as He still has the ability, but whether or not He chooses to use it for our benefit is ultimately a matter of trusting that God knows what He is doing. Sometimes we have to trust that he is Omniscient and Omnibenevolent in or to understand that being Omnipotent doesn't mean that He will always use this power. Some cannot understand this when they have the loss of a loved one or something along those lines. Knowing that all things happen for a reason, even if it is a bad one, is just part of understanding that the good has to come with the evil. To know good, one must know evil.
MadCornishBiker
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5/7/2015 5:47:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 7:26:01 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/6/2015 4:41:46 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/6/2015 3:16:59 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/6/2015 7:30:55 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

EXCEPT? LMAO! According to your wild BotchTowerish theories, they screwed frequently, either due to anger ... or ignorance ... or just shooting off at the mouth. Precisely who all made gross errors, according to you, in their writings or oral statements? Well, to begin with, Jesus did! Then Luke. Then Paul. Don't forget John. In fact, as per you, they all did!

They made the occasional inaccurate statement because they did not have full knowledge of what they were making the statement about, scripture shows that frankly and openly. But they made no mistakes in what they taught.

Look at the tard trying again to walk that non-existent line between "made inaccurate statements" but "no mistake in what they taught." Such isn't even worthy of another response.


Since the retort will be the same old "new light" BS, let me go ahead and state that at times the "new light" is nothing more than "old light" that was supposedly "corrected" decades earlier. Yep. They'll revert right back to an old definition that was canned fifty years earlier. That's not "light" at all. It's total darkness.

Again you lie, and twist things to say what you want them to say.

It still stands that they taught as their teachings, exactly what scripture told them, and still do.

Then scripture evidently "told" them one thing, followed by "told" them another thing, then "told" them to flip-flop right back to the first thing. And, no, I don't have to twist: all I have to do is copy and paste their own multiple contradictory statements.


Why did Jehovah want it revealed and not hidden?

Oh, it was already revealed. The BotchTower just botched it up - and continues to do so. Would you like to see how many times they've botched the meaning of "this generation"? Would like to see how many times they've said the phrase applied only to the anointed, then to worldly people, then back to the anointed, then back again? Would you like to see how many times "God's spirit-filled organization" has given the world the "clear, beyond doubt" meaning - only to turn around and deny the same meaning ten or twenty years later?

I think I counted TEN flip-flops and modifications on the phrase "this generation" in the last 100 years.

By 2010, they had made up a new one:

"Jesus evidently meant that the lives of the anointed ones who were on hand when the sign began to be evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of the other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. We do not know the exact length of "this generation," but it includes these two groups whose lives overlap. Even though the anointed vary in age, those in the two groups constituting the generation are contemporaries during the part of the last days. How comforting it is to know that the younger anointed contemporaries of those older anointed ones who discerned the sign when it became evident beginning in 1914 will not die off before the great tribulation starts!" - Watchtower 2010 June 15 p.5

What BS! What nonsense! Suddenly the overlap of two generations is defined as ONE generation! LMAO @ that. And old Mr. Barr died right after he read off that crap. Any Biblical basis, from Genesis to Revelation, for such a re-definition? Of course not! Once again, they made it up. Why? Well, they are concerned that if the true meaning of "this generation" is applied, their 1914 folly is exposed for what it is.

No Anna, as always you have, probably deliberately, misunderstood.

The 1914 generation was the one that saw the start of things, but we have yet to see the end of them.

And don't forget, for a generation not to pass away there only has to be one member surviving. It hasn't passed away until all are dead, whatever the means of it's passing.

Actually, there is a biblical basis for all their teachings, and even statements like that, though I admit the biblical basis for that statement is a little tenuous, but it still could prove true.

Then by all means, do so. I've yet to see a "Biblical basis" for such a definition of generation.

That's because you know so little of scripture and understand even less.