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Why do people believe God did not create Evil

drpiek
Posts: 589
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5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Bible has many passages that come right out ans say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Joshua 23:15:
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things.

Jeremiah 44:2
Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah

Micah 2:3
Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil.

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house

1 Kings 9:9
...therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this evil.

1 Kings 14:10
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam

2 Kings 6:33
Behold, this evil is of the Lord;

2 Kings 21:12:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

Nehemiah 13:18:
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people

Jeremiah 35:17
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:

Jeremiah 45:5 .
Behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the Lord:

Jeremiah 49:37
I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the Lord; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them.

Micah 1:12
Evil came down from the Lord.
TheWORDisLIFE
Posts: 1,071
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5/6/2015 10:36:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
The Bible has many passages that come right out ans say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Joshua 23:15:
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things.

Jeremiah 44:2
Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah

Micah 2:3
Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil.

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house

1 Kings 9:9
...therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this evil.

1 Kings 14:10
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam

2 Kings 6:33
Behold, this evil is of the Lord;

2 Kings 21:12:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

Nehemiah 13:18:
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people

Jeremiah 35:17
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:

Jeremiah 45:5 .
Behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the Lord:

Jeremiah 49:37
I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the Lord; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them.

Micah 1:12
Evil came down from the Lord.

Because it's a huge lie Christianity has taught. Christianity teaches that God loves everyone, well if God really did love everyone, would there be evil on this planet? Would HE allow all these people to be tortured and killed? Christians don't use common sense, they just believe what their lying pastors tell them without actually searching out the scriptures.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,263
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5/6/2015 12:12:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
The Bible has many passages that come right out ans say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Joshua 23:15:
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things.

Jeremiah 44:2
Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah

Micah 2:3
Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil.

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house

1 Kings 9:9
...therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this evil.

1 Kings 14:10
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam

2 Kings 6:33
Behold, this evil is of the Lord;

2 Kings 21:12:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

Nehemiah 13:18:
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people

Jeremiah 35:17
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:

Jeremiah 45:5 .
Behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the Lord:

Jeremiah 49:37
I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the Lord; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them.

Micah 1:12
Evil came down from the Lord.

Define evil.
drpiek
Posts: 589
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5/6/2015 1:23:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 12:12:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
The Bible has many passages that come right out ans say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Joshua 23:15:
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things.

Jeremiah 44:2
Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah

Micah 2:3
Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil.

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house

1 Kings 9:9
...therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this evil.

1 Kings 14:10
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam

2 Kings 6:33
Behold, this evil is of the Lord;

2 Kings 21:12:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

Nehemiah 13:18:
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people

Jeremiah 35:17
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:

Jeremiah 45:5 .
Behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the Lord:

Jeremiah 49:37
I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the Lord; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them.

Micah 1:12
Evil came down from the Lord.

Define evil.

The definition of evil is not the point of this thread.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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5/6/2015 1:33:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
generally people dont accept what they hate and vice versa... in the Quran God created both good and evil...
Never fart near dog
Geogeer
Posts: 4,263
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5/6/2015 1:42:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 1:23:34 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 5/6/2015 12:12:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
The Bible has many passages that come right out ans say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Joshua 23:15:
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things.

Jeremiah 44:2
Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah

Micah 2:3
Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil.

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house

1 Kings 9:9
...therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this evil.

1 Kings 14:10
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam

2 Kings 6:33
Behold, this evil is of the Lord;

2 Kings 21:12:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

Nehemiah 13:18:
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people

Jeremiah 35:17
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:

Jeremiah 45:5 .
Behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the Lord:

Jeremiah 49:37
I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the Lord; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them.

Micah 1:12
Evil came down from the Lord.

Define evil.

The definition of evil is not the point of this thread.

It is extremely relevant to this thread. Is evil in this context, something wrong and contrary to good, or is it an undesired event that negatively affects us.
12_13
Posts: 1,362
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5/6/2015 3:28:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
The Bible has many passages that come right out ans say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

I think the problem is in how we understand evil. Evil is like darkness or emptiness, nothing. It is formed, when good is not present. When God doesn"t affect, evil is what rules. And actually it means the lack of good rules. All evil actions come, when good (Love, God) is rejected. And evil action is actually unloving action.

If God sends evil, it means, God removes his protection and good is not anymore influencing and causing the darkness to be away.
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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5/6/2015 3:40:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"Evil" is a value assessment, requiring some criteria, which is pretty much always relative to the one doing the assessing.

And "creation" does not automatically necessitate or imply ongoing control.

So to claim that "God created evil" is basically nonsensical.

We decide what is "evil" and what isn't, so if anyone is "creating" it, we are.
drpiek
Posts: 589
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5/6/2015 6:33:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 3:40:59 PM, PureX wrote:
"Evil" is a value assessment, requiring some criteria, which is pretty much always relative to the one doing the assessing.

And "creation" does not automatically necessitate or imply ongoing control.

So to claim that "God created evil" is basically nonsensical.

We decide what is "evil" and what isn't, so if anyone is "creating" it, we are.

Then the bible is nonsensical because it states that God does create and control evil.
drpiek
Posts: 589
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5/6/2015 6:36:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 1:42:29 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/6/2015 1:23:34 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 5/6/2015 12:12:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
The Bible has many passages that come right out ans say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Joshua 23:15:
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things.

Jeremiah 44:2
Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah

Micah 2:3
Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil.

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house

1 Kings 9:9
...therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this evil.

1 Kings 14:10
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam

2 Kings 6:33
Behold, this evil is of the Lord;

2 Kings 21:12:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

Nehemiah 13:18:
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people

Jeremiah 35:17
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:

Jeremiah 45:5 .
Behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the Lord:

Jeremiah 49:37
I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the Lord; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them.

Micah 1:12
Evil came down from the Lord.

Define evil.

The definition of evil is not the point of this thread.

It is extremely relevant to this thread. Is evil in this context, something wrong and contrary to good, or is it an undesired event that negatively affects us.

Yes Evil is something wrong, not good, and negative. Shall we now define wrong, good, and negative? Maybe we could make our definition of evil stronger by throwing in the word Bad, but then we would have to define that too.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/6/2015 6:42:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
The Bible has many passages that come right out and say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?

There are two basic claims of divine authority: overwhelming power and absolute virtue.

Overwhelming power says a metaphysical agency can make your life as bad as it wants. Examples of overwhelming power include creation and destruction of the universe, complete control over natural consequence, and the ability to torture you eternally. But absolute virtue says a metaphysical agency is incapable of being untruthful, unjust, errant, neglectful or unnecessarily cruel.

These two claims do not co-exist well. Adherents like to threaten enemies and dissenters with overwhelming power, yet reassure allies and the disaffected with assertions of absolute virtue.

From that conflict of interest comes the dualistic, paraconsistent mess Judaeo-Christians have made of the problem of evil.
baddebater
Posts: 200
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5/6/2015 9:38:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 1:33:46 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
generally people dont accept what they hate and vice versa... in the Quran God created both good and evil... : :

Genesis 2:
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,263
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5/6/2015 10:00:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 6:36:35 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 5/6/2015 1:42:29 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/6/2015 1:23:34 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 5/6/2015 12:12:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
The Bible has many passages that come right out ans say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Joshua 23:15:
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things.

Jeremiah 44:2
Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah

Micah 2:3
Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil.

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house

1 Kings 9:9
...therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this evil.

1 Kings 14:10
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam

2 Kings 6:33
Behold, this evil is of the Lord;

2 Kings 21:12:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

Nehemiah 13:18:
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people

Jeremiah 35:17
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:

Jeremiah 45:5 .
Behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the Lord:

Jeremiah 49:37
I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the Lord; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them.

Micah 1:12
Evil came down from the Lord.

Define evil.

The definition of evil is not the point of this thread.

It is extremely relevant to this thread. Is evil in this context, something wrong and contrary to good, or is it an undesired event that negatively affects us.

Yes Evil is something wrong, not good, and negative. Shall we now define wrong, good, and negative? Maybe we could make our definition of evil stronger by throwing in the word Bad, but then we would have to define that too.

So what you are saying then is that you find it wrong that God has consequences for wrongdoing?
Dichasium
Posts: 5
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5/7/2015 4:42:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
The Bible has many passages that come right out ans say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?
drpiek, the answer is that because God is love, he MUST give us the freedom of choice. If we do not acknowledge impartial, universal love, we turn our own backs to it (this IS ignorance); there is only one choice - to respond to it or to ignore it. When we ignore it we have the consequence, which is, to live without it. Living without it is what this life on earth is full of. We are here to learn because we ignore the power of love. We still each have the choice.
Ps. Most spiritual & religious people are still learning and make mistakes along the way. Just as atheists do.
drpiek
Posts: 589
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5/7/2015 1:38:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 10:00:46 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/6/2015 6:36:35 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 5/6/2015 1:42:29 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/6/2015 1:23:34 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 5/6/2015 12:12:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
The Bible has many passages that come right out ans say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Joshua 23:15:
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things.

Jeremiah 44:2
Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah

Micah 2:3
Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil.

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house

1 Kings 9:9
...therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this evil.

1 Kings 14:10
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam

2 Kings 6:33
Behold, this evil is of the Lord;

2 Kings 21:12:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

Nehemiah 13:18:
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people

Jeremiah 35:17
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:

Jeremiah 45:5 .
Behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the Lord:

Jeremiah 49:37
I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the Lord; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them.

Micah 1:12
Evil came down from the Lord.

Define evil.

The definition of evil is not the point of this thread.

It is extremely relevant to this thread. Is evil in this context, something wrong and contrary to good, or is it an undesired event that negatively affects us.

Yes Evil is something wrong, not good, and negative. Shall we now define wrong, good, and negative? Maybe we could make our definition of evil stronger by throwing in the word Bad, but then we would have to define that too.

So what you are saying then is that you find it wrong that God has consequences for wrongdoing?

No I am just stating that the bible suggests that Gods nature is both good and evil.
drpiek
Posts: 589
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5/7/2015 1:40:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 4:42:34 AM, Dichasium wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
The Bible has many passages that come right out ans say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?
drpiek, the answer is that because God is love, he MUST give us the freedom of choice. If we do not acknowledge impartial, universal love, we turn our own backs to it (this IS ignorance); there is only one choice - to respond to it or to ignore it. When we ignore it we have the consequence, which is, to live without it. Living without it is what this life on earth is full of. We are here to learn because we ignore the power of love. We still each have the choice.
Ps. Most spiritual & religious people are still learning and make mistakes along the way. Just as atheists do.

So you are saying since God is also Love, we should ignore the Evil aspects of God and make believe they do not exist?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,263
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5/7/2015 1:56:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 1:38:32 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:00:46 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/6/2015 6:36:35 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 5/6/2015 1:42:29 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/6/2015 1:23:34 PM, drpiek wrote:
At 5/6/2015 12:12:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
The Bible has many passages that come right out ans say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Joshua 23:15:
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things.

Jeremiah 44:2
Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah

Micah 2:3
Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil.

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house

1 Kings 9:9
...therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this evil.

1 Kings 14:10
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam

2 Kings 6:33
Behold, this evil is of the Lord;

2 Kings 21:12:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

Nehemiah 13:18:
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people

Jeremiah 35:17
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:

Jeremiah 45:5 .
Behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the Lord:

Jeremiah 49:37
I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the Lord; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them.

Micah 1:12
Evil came down from the Lord.

Define evil.

The definition of evil is not the point of this thread.

It is extremely relevant to this thread. Is evil in this context, something wrong and contrary to good, or is it an undesired event that negatively affects us.

Yes Evil is something wrong, not good, and negative. Shall we now define wrong, good, and negative? Maybe we could make our definition of evil stronger by throwing in the word Bad, but then we would have to define that too.

So what you are saying then is that you find it wrong that God has consequences for wrongdoing?

No I am just stating that the bible suggests that Gods nature is both good and evil.

That is precisely why I asked you to define evil. What is being discussed in these passages are natural evils and not sin.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/7/2015 3:50:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
The Bible has many passages that come right out ans say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Joshua 23:15:
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things.

Jeremiah 44:2
Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah

Micah 2:3
Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil.

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house

1 Kings 9:9
...therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this evil.

1 Kings 14:10
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam

2 Kings 6:33
Behold, this evil is of the Lord;

2 Kings 21:12:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

Nehemiah 13:18:
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people

Jeremiah 35:17
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:

Jeremiah 45:5 .
Behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the Lord:

Jeremiah 49:37
I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the Lord; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them.

Micah 1:12
Evil came down from the Lord.

Because when you get to know him as I do you realise that it is just not within his personality to do any harm to any that he isn't forced to in order to protect his people.

He is not above doing what we see as evil deeds in that cause, but only to protect his people.

However, because of the reason they are done they are only evil in the eyes of one who is on the receiving end.

He is not in the least evil, nor would he consider creating it.

The problem arose because, by giving his human and angelic creations free will he created the potential for evil, which potential Satan realised and spread to others.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,008
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5/7/2015 4:38:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 3:50:01 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
The Bible has many passages that come right out ans say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Joshua 23:15:
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things.

Jeremiah 44:2
Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah

Micah 2:3
Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil.

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house

1 Kings 9:9
...therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this evil.

1 Kings 14:10
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam

2 Kings 6:33
Behold, this evil is of the Lord;

2 Kings 21:12:
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

Nehemiah 13:18:
Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people

Jeremiah 35:17
Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:

Jeremiah 45:5 .
Behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the Lord:

Jeremiah 49:37
I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the Lord; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them.

Micah 1:12
Evil came down from the Lord.

Because when you get to know him as I do you realise that it is just not within his personality to do any harm to any that he isn't forced to in order to protect his people.

He is not above doing what we see as evil deeds in that cause, but only to protect his people.

However, because of the reason they are done they are only evil in the eyes of one who is on the receiving end.

He is not in the least evil, nor would he consider creating it.

The problem arose because, by giving his human and angelic creations free will he created the potential for evil, which potential Satan realised and spread to others.

God created a talking serpent (Satan). God went to extreme lengths to spread evil through a talking snake. He also made the snake smarter than His own human creations. That was stacking the odds even higher against humans.
baddebater
Posts: 200
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5/8/2015 2:28:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 4:42:34 AM, Dichasium wrote:
At 5/6/2015 9:25:09 AM, drpiek wrote:
The Bible has many passages that come right out ans say that God created everything and uses both Good and Evil. Why do so many people refuse to accept this?
drpiek, the answer is that because God is love, he MUST give us the freedom of choice. If we do not acknowledge impartial, universal love, we turn our own backs to it (this IS ignorance); there is only one choice - to respond to it or to ignore it. When we ignore it we have the consequence, which is, to live without it. Living without it is what this life on earth is full of. We are here to learn because we ignore the power of love. We still each have the choice. : :

If people do not know about God, how can they ignore him?

Ps. Most spiritual & religious people are still learning and make mistakes along the way. Just as atheists do. : :
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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5/8/2015 2:46:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 1:38:32 PM, drpiek wrote:

No I am just stating that the bible suggests that Gods nature is both good and evil.

The bible stories could replace the word God with the words "Mother Nature" and would suggest exactly the same thing about "Mother Nature"... but what is it really saying? Is it saying the nature or character of an invisible person is both good and evil or that nature itself contains all opposites?
The way I see it, it is not talking about the nature of an invisible supernatural character at all but rather personifying natural processes. Those which are good in the judgment of humans are personified as "good gods" and those which are evil are personified as "bad gods" or "devils"
It is difficult for many religious people to comprehend how anything that appears to be good can also appear to be evil. They prefer to separate them and treat good ( light) and evil (darkness) as separate entities or as separate fruits on the "tree of good and evil" rather than as the same entity or the same fruit. They seem incapable of seeing it as one coin with opposite sides. They prefer to see it as two separate coins. One is a "good coin" and the other an "evil coin." or one is a "good fruit" and the other is a "bad fruit".
baddebater
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5/8/2015 3:16:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 2:46:05 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 5/7/2015 1:38:32 PM, drpiek wrote:

No I am just stating that the bible suggests that Gods nature is both good and evil.

The bible stories could replace the word God with the words "Mother Nature" and would suggest exactly the same thing about "Mother Nature"... but what is it really saying? Is it saying the nature or character of an invisible person is both good and evil or that nature itself contains all opposites?
The way I see it, it is not talking about the nature of an invisible supernatural character at all but rather personifying natural processes. Those which are good in the judgment of humans are personified as "good gods" and those which are evil are personified as "bad gods" or "devils"
It is difficult for many religious people to comprehend how anything that appears to be good can also appear to be evil. They prefer to separate them and treat good ( light) and evil (darkness) as separate entities or as separate fruits on the "tree of good and evil" rather than as the same entity or the same fruit. They seem incapable of seeing it as one coin with opposite sides. They prefer to see it as two separate coins. One is a "good coin" and the other an "evil coin." or one is a "good fruit" and the other is a "bad fruit". : :

How I read the symbolic story in Genesis is that God planted many trees in the garden of Eden for man. Among them were the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life.

Do you have anything to say about the tree of life?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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5/8/2015 3:43:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 3:16:17 AM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 2:46:05 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 5/7/2015 1:38:32 PM, drpiek wrote:

No I am just stating that the bible suggests that Gods nature is both good and evil.

The bible stories could replace the word God with the words "Mother Nature" and would suggest exactly the same thing about "Mother Nature"... but what is it really saying? Is it saying the nature or character of an invisible person is both good and evil or that nature itself contains all opposites?
The way I see it, it is not talking about the nature of an invisible supernatural character at all but rather personifying natural processes. Those which are good in the judgment of humans are personified as "good gods" and those which are evil are personified as "bad gods" or "devils"
It is difficult for many religious people to comprehend how anything that appears to be good can also appear to be evil. They prefer to separate them and treat good ( light) and evil (darkness) as separate entities or as separate fruits on the "tree of good and evil" rather than as the same entity or the same fruit. They seem incapable of seeing it as one coin with opposite sides. They prefer to see it as two separate coins. One is a "good coin" and the other an "evil coin." or one is a "good fruit" and the other is a "bad fruit". : :

How I read the symbolic story in Genesis is that God planted many trees in the garden of Eden for man. Among them were the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life.

Do you have anything to say about the tree of life?

I have plenty to say.
Trees can be symbolic of many different things.
Religion uses the "tree of life" as a symbol of eternal life.
Science uses the "tree of life" as a diagram of evolution.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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5/8/2015 6:28:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
You have two crowds, those who believe that God has controlled the actions of all people and all circumstances. (Calvinism)
Then you have the rational crowd that has the proper balance of both common sense and scripture which understands that there is the will of God, and then there is our will or the will of man, both sides are expressed within scripture.
You have decided to focus on ONE side of the coin for whatever reasons and then went and did exactly what you accused me of, cherry picking. You went and searched all the OT one line passages about God bringing evil on people, but you forgot why God was angry, why did God bring evil upon them?? Why did God send the prophets??? Because they were doing EVIL.
They were outside the will of God and that was the whole point lol.
You haven't directly said it but I know what your thinking here and you are wrong, you are wrong because you are conflating. You are unable to distinguish the difference so I'm gonna show you a third time in James 1 what I mean.

JAMES 1
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

When God expresses bringing evil upon someone in the OT it is the same as saying God has given them over to what they are sowing. In other words God is letting them have the fruits of their own doing, anyone who understands the scriptures should understand that God has called us into the Light, to say God controls what we decide and God makes us commit evil is making God a hypocrite as well as an idiot, the lack of perception is unbearably mind numbing.

Here are some samples of the other side of the coin, and there are too many to post...

Jeremiah 25
4 And the Lord hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending them; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear.

5 They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the Lord hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever:

6 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

7 Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the Lord; that ye might provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.

8 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words

Leviticus 11
44 For I am the Lord your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy:

1 Peter 1
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Ephesians 4
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Proverbs 8
7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I'll leave it there for now that should make my point perfectly clear. My suggestion to you is if you want to really understand what the scriptures say actually read it rather than cherry picking OT verses entering key words otherwise you have gained nothing but ignorance.
There is a distinction between God creating beings that have a will of their own, and those beings choosing to commit something that would be considered evil. Evil is not some entity that had to be created, that is a dumb concept (as I've explained to you the verse in Isaiah 45 and what it means and who it is addressed to).
Evil is simply the result of a choice, it's what the choice produces not the other way around. Some people think a$$ backwards, they start at the a$$ end of the donkey :/ we need more common sense and balance.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,008
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5/8/2015 8:00:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 6:28:20 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
You have two crowds, those who believe that God has controlled the actions of all people and all circumstances. (Calvinism)
Then you have the rational crowd that has the proper balance of both common sense and scripture which understands that there is the will of God, and then there is our will or the will of man, both sides are expressed within scripture.
You have decided to focus on ONE side of the coin for whatever reasons and then went and did exactly what you accused me of, cherry picking. You went and searched all the OT one line passages about God bringing evil on people, but you forgot why God was angry, why did God bring evil upon them?? Why did God send the prophets??? Because they were doing EVIL.
They were outside the will of God and that was the whole point lol.
You haven't directly said it but I know what your thinking here and you are wrong, you are wrong because you are conflating. You are unable to distinguish the difference so I'm gonna show you a third time in James 1 what I mean.

JAMES 1
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.


When God expresses bringing evil upon someone in the OT it is the same as saying God has given them over to what they are sowing. In other words God is letting them have the fruits of their own doing, anyone who understands the scriptures should understand that God has called us into the Light, to say God controls what we decide and God makes us commit evil is making God a hypocrite as well as an idiot, the lack of perception is unbearably mind numbing.

Here are some samples of the other side of the coin, and there are too many to post...

Jeremiah 25
4 And the Lord hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending them; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear.

5 They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the Lord hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever:

6 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

7 Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the Lord; that ye might provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.

8 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words


Leviticus 11
44 For I am the Lord your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy:

1 Peter 1
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Ephesians 4
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:


Proverbs 8
7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I'll leave it there for now that should make my point perfectly clear. My suggestion to you is if you want to really understand what the scriptures say actually read it rather than cherry picking OT verses entering key words otherwise you have gained nothing but ignorance.
There is a distinction between God creating beings that have a will of their own, and those beings choosing to commit something that would be considered evil. Evil is not some entity that had to be created, that is a dumb concept (as I've explained to you the verse in Isaiah 45 and what it means and who it is addressed to).
Evil is simply the result of a choice, it's what the choice produces not the other way around. Some people think a$$ backwards, they start at the a$$ end of the donkey :/ we need more common sense and balance.

God is irrelevant and His moral precepts are redundant. We have laws that meter out justice more efficiently than He did. We have charities that take care of the poor and needy more compassionately than He ever did. We apply science and technology to deal with natural disasters and no longer rely on whimsical prophesies that miss the events by several hundred years. And our morality is dictated by social evolution and not by guilt ridden pious sanctimony.
God did not create evil. It is deranged evil minds that created God to control and indoctrinate lesser minds.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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5/8/2015 8:34:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 8:00:03 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 5/8/2015 6:28:20 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
You have two crowds, those who believe that God has controlled the actions of all people and all circumstances. (Calvinism)
Then you have the rational crowd that has the proper balance of both common sense and scripture which understands that there is the will of God, and then there is our will or the will of man, both sides are expressed within scripture.
You have decided to focus on ONE side of the coin for whatever reasons and then went and did exactly what you accused me of, cherry picking. You went and searched all the OT one line passages about God bringing evil on people, but you forgot why God was angry, why did God bring evil upon them?? Why did God send the prophets??? Because they were doing EVIL.
They were outside the will of God and that was the whole point lol.
You haven't directly said it but I know what your thinking here and you are wrong, you are wrong because you are conflating. You are unable to distinguish the difference so I'm gonna show you a third time in James 1 what I mean.

JAMES 1
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.


When God expresses bringing evil upon someone in the OT it is the same as saying God has given them over to what they are sowing. In other words God is letting them have the fruits of their own doing, anyone who understands the scriptures should understand that God has called us into the Light, to say God controls what we decide and God makes us commit evil is making God a hypocrite as well as an idiot, the lack of perception is unbearably mind numbing.

Here are some samples of the other side of the coin, and there are too many to post...

Jeremiah 25
4 And the Lord hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending them; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear.

5 They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the Lord hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever:

6 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

7 Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the Lord; that ye might provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.

8 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words

Ephesians 4
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:


Proverbs 8
7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

There is a distinction between God creating beings that have a will of their own, and those beings choosing to commit something that would be considered evil. Evil is not some entity that had to be created, that is a dumb concept (as I've explained to you the verse in Isaiah 45 and what it means and who it is addressed to).
Evil is simply the result of a choice, it's what the choice produces not the other way around. Some people think a$$ backwards, they start at the a$$ end of the donkey :/ we need more common sense and balance.

God is irrelevant and His moral precepts are redundant. We have laws that meter out justice more efficiently than He did. We have charities that take care of the poor and needy more compassionately than He ever did. We apply science and technology to deal with natural disasters and no longer rely on whimsical prophesies that miss the events by several hundred years. And our morality is dictated by social evolution and not by guilt ridden pious sanctimony.God did not create evil. It is deranged evil minds that created God to control and indoctrinate lesser minds.

Speak for yourself (which I know you have a problem with), my beliefs are not based on guilt or any of the other bare assertions you make. There is no guilt unless one is guilty and I have no fear of God in this area, I am open and honest I do not hide. If I'm guilty I confess it.

Secondly I know God did not create evil but according to your beliefs there is nothing outside God, so those "deranged evil minds" are God's mind lol, nice job.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,008
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5/8/2015 10:16:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 8:34:55 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 5/8/2015 8:00:03 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 5/8/2015 6:28:20 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
You have two crowds, those who believe that God has controlled the actions of all people and all circumstances. (Calvinism)
Then you have the rational crowd that has the proper balance of both common sense and scripture which understands that there is the will of God, and then there is our will or the will of man, both sides are expressed within scripture.
You have decided to focus on ONE side of the coin for whatever reasons and then went and did exactly what you accused me of, cherry picking. You went and searched all the OT one line passages about God bringing evil on people, but you forgot why God was angry, why did God bring evil upon them?? Why did God send the prophets??? Because they were doing EVIL.
They were outside the will of God and that was the whole point lol.
You haven't directly said it but I know what your thinking here and you are wrong, you are wrong because you are conflating. You are unable to distinguish the difference so I'm gonna show you a third time in James 1 what I mean.

JAMES 1
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.


When God expresses bringing evil upon someone in the OT it is the same as saying God has given them over to what they are sowing. In other words God is letting them have the fruits of their own doing, anyone who understands the scriptures should understand that God has called us into the Light, to say God controls what we decide and God makes us commit evil is making God a hypocrite as well as an idiot, the lack of perception is unbearably mind numbing.

Here are some samples of the other side of the coin, and there are too many to post...

Jeremiah 25
4 And the Lord hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending them; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear.

5 They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the Lord hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever:

6 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

7 Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the Lord; that ye might provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.

8 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words

Ephesians 4
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:



There is a distinction between God creating beings that have a will of their own, and those beings choosing to commit something that would be considered evil. Evil is not some entity that had to be created, that is a dumb concept (as I've explained to you the verse in Isaiah 45 and what it means and who it is addressed to).
Evil is simply the result of a choice, it's what the choice produces not the other way around. Some people think a$$ backwards, they start at the a$$ end of the donkey :/ we need more common sense and balance.

God is irrelevant and His moral precepts are redundant. We have laws that meter out justice more efficiently than He did. We have charities that take care of the poor and needy more compassionately than He ever did. We apply science and technology to deal with natural disasters and no longer rely on whimsical prophesies that miss the events by several hundred years. And our morality is dictated by social evolution and not by guilt ridden pious sanctimony.God did not create evil. It is deranged evil minds that created God to control and indoctrinate lesser minds.

Speak for yourself (which I know you have a problem with), my beliefs are not based on guilt or any of the other bare assertions you make. There is no guilt unless one is guilty and I have no fear of God in this area, I am open and honest I do not hide. If I'm guilty I confess it.

Secondly I know God did not create evil but according to your beliefs there is nothing outside God, so those "deranged evil minds" are God's mind lol, nice job.
Please do not make your confessions public. My position is very clear God did not create evil,men did.
But we do a better job at enforcing the law, dealing with natural disasters, caring for the sick and needy and preserving our humanity better than God every did.
If you are guilty of a crime confessing to God is an attempt to circumvent justice. You should turn yourself in to the police.
Christians seek forgiveness from God. Federal prison study found 80% of the criminals in prison are Christians. they are the ones that got caught. The percentage would be higher if God did not give sanctuary to criminals who should be serving time and not using God as an excuse.
IntellectVsSpirit5000
Posts: 1,266
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10/3/2015 1:09:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It's like me and my wife having a child. The child cures cancer, diabetes, and AIDS. So did I come up with the cure or did his mother? We brought him into life right? So we must have cured cancer right? No. He did. SMH
IntellectVsSpirit5000
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10/3/2015 1:16:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is how ra' is used in Amos 3.6, which is a similar verse, "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3.6 KJV bible). In this instance, Ra' is used to refer to trouble and distress within the city. So the Hebrew word "ra" (used in both Isaiah 45.7 and Amos 3.6), doesn't always refer to the moral evils of sin.