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just another example...

Mhykiel
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5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,120
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5/6/2015 10:40:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

Just another example of what? No doubt, you're attempting to say the atheist was representative of all atheists, but we don't have a holy rule book that tells us to murder certain people in certain ways nor are we unified in any way other than disbelief in gods, Mhykiel.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,224
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5/6/2015 11:00:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

Not surprisingly, that does seem to be the touchstone as to what triggered everything. When did the shooting occur? After the parking lot dispute. Why not before hand, if it was genuinely about atheism vs Islam?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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5/7/2015 9:01:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
No one every claimed atheism made a person perfect. It's obvious that this guy had anger issues among other things. If he was really bent on killing every Muslim why did he not continue shooting until he was either killed or ran out of ammo? It's basically someone looking for some kind of sense in a senseless act, IMO.
bulproof
Posts: 25,247
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5/7/2015 9:08:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

You tried this before and got your arse handed to you.
Funny as.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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5/7/2015 9:13:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 10:40:56 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

Just another example of what? No doubt, you're attempting to say the atheist was representative of all atheists, but we don't have a holy rule book that tells us to murder certain people in certain ways nor are we unified in any way other than disbelief in gods, Mhykiel.

Much the same as you tried casting all theists as part of a religious denomination, When theism is simply belief in God, it doesn't necessarily entail having to follow any scriptures at, it just belief that a God exists.

Of course I don't expect you to concede this, and retract your original statement, But it would just as absurd if I said, remind me why anti-atheism is such a bad thing again.

Of course you want your cake and to eat it.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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5/7/2015 9:47:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

"The man who was charged with the February murders of three Muslim students near the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill is scheduled to be in court Monday for a hearing on whether he will face the death penalty. Craig Stephen Hicks, who surrendered to police Feb. 10 less than an hour after he shot and killed Deah Shaddy Barakat, 23; Yusor Mohammad Abu-Salha, 21; and Razan Mohammad Abu-Salha, 19, was charged with first degree murder.

Hicks' former wife, Cynthia Hurley, noted that his favorite film was "Falling Down," a fictional account that chronicled a day in the life of of a divorced, unemployed man who carried out an arbitrary shooting rampage. "That always freaked me out. He watched it incessantly. He thought it was hilarious. He had no compassion at all," she told the AP back in February. "

http://www.ibtimes.com...
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,120
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5/7/2015 11:50:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 9:13:40 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:40:56 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

Just another example of what? No doubt, you're attempting to say the atheist was representative of all atheists, but we don't have a holy rule book that tells us to murder certain people in certain ways nor are we unified in any way other than disbelief in gods, Mhykiel.

Much the same as you tried casting all theists as part of a religious denomination, When theism is simply belief in God, it doesn't necessarily entail having to follow any scriptures at, it just belief that a God exists.

Belief in God, on its own, is not theism, John. Theism is belief in a revealed god of a religion (a personal god). If you don't know the name of your god, then you are not a theist. Most contemporary theist have a holy book that does indeed say as I suggested in the other thread.

Of course I don't expect you to concede this, and retract your original statement, But it would just as absurd if I said, remind me why anti-atheism is such a bad thing again.

Lol, the holy books encourage "anti-atheism". So, I'm surprised you find that 'absurd'.

Of course you want your cake and to eat it.

I am by no means perfect, John, so forgive me if I have been harsh. That being said, it seems to me the OP (and you) are mistaking theism and atheism as opposites of the same coin. Theism has very specific edicts, laws, commandments, axioms that must be followed or believed- they are not supposed to be optional. Failure to adhere is a no-no and makes one a sinner which causes separation from God and possibly some form of punishment beyond this world. Theists generally think their morality comes from God. Theists generally think God is watching them. Theists generally think they can talk to God and that he guides them. Theists generally think that God inspired the holy book. Theists generally think their version of God is the creator. There are probably other aspects of common theistic tendencies I am leaving out.

Atheism has disbelief of theists' claims. That's it! Theism and atheism are not equivalent opposites. If an atheist does something good or bad, it is not reflective of an 'atheistic worldview' unless it is disbelief. Imagine someone saying they did something, other than not have sex, because of celibacy. We would all be scratching our heads at such a statement. It is the same with atheism. Anything other than disbelief in theist' claims is not reflective of the views of all atheists.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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5/7/2015 12:03:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 11:50:39 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/7/2015 9:13:40 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:40:56 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

Just another example of what? No doubt, you're attempting to say the atheist was representative of all atheists, but we don't have a holy rule book that tells us to murder certain people in certain ways nor are we unified in any way other than disbelief in gods, Mhykiel.

Much the same as you tried casting all theists as part of a religious denomination, When theism is simply belief in God, it doesn't necessarily entail having to follow any scriptures at, it just belief that a God exists.

Belief in God, on its own, is not theism, John. Theism is belief in a revealed god of a religion (a personal god). If you don't know the name of your god, then you are not a theist. Most contemporary theist have a holy book that does indeed say as I suggested in the other thread.

You are wrong, And I was right that I shouldn't expect you to concede that, Obviously, A theist is simply someone who believes in a God, you do not have to subscribe to any known religion to be a theist. Like I don't subscribe to any known religion but I am still a theist, Why, because I believe in God, but I don't subscribe to a religion. Again I don't expect you to gracefully concede this pint, but what can be done.


Of course I don't expect you to concede this, and retract your original statement, But it would just as absurd if I said, remind me why anti-atheism is such a bad thing again.

Lol, the holy books encourage "anti-atheism". So, I'm surprised you find that 'absurd'.

Of course you want your cake and to eat it.

I am by no means perfect, John, so forgive me if I have been harsh. That being said, it seems to me the OP (and you) are mistaking theism and atheism as opposites of the same coin. Theism has very specific edicts, laws, commandments, axioms that must be followed or believed- they are not supposed to be optional. Failure to adhere is a no-no and makes one a sinner which causes separation from God and possibly some form of punishment beyond this world. Theists generally think their morality comes from God. Theists generally think God is watching them. Theists generally think they can talk to God and that he guides them. Theists generally think that God inspired the holy book. Theists generally think their version of God is the creator. There are probably other aspects of common theistic tendencies I am leaving out.

Atheism has disbelief of theists' claims. That's it! Theism and atheism are not equivalent opposites. If an atheist does something good or bad, it is not reflective of an 'atheistic worldview' unless it is disbelief. Imagine someone saying they did something, other than not have sex, because of celibacy. We would all be scratching our heads at such a statement. It is the same with atheism. Anything other than disbelief in theist' claims is not reflective of the views of all atheists.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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5/7/2015 12:30:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

ahahahahahaha hahahahahaha oh mhykiel! ahahahahahahahahaha! As usual you're going no where fast. And what is the most recent muslim shooting an example of?? Is the Boston bombing an example of how Islam is the religion of peace?
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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5/7/2015 12:32:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 12:03:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/7/2015 11:50:39 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/7/2015 9:13:40 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:40:56 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

Just another example of what? No doubt, you're attempting to say the atheist was representative of all atheists, but we don't have a holy rule book that tells us to murder certain people in certain ways nor are we unified in any way other than disbelief in gods, Mhykiel.

Much the same as you tried casting all theists as part of a religious denomination, When theism is simply belief in God, it doesn't necessarily entail having to follow any scriptures at, it just belief that a God exists.

Belief in God, on its own, is not theism, John. Theism is belief in a revealed god of a religion (a personal god). If you don't know the name of your god, then you are not a theist. Most contemporary theist have a holy book that does indeed say as I suggested in the other thread.

You are wrong, And I was right that I shouldn't expect you to concede that, Obviously, A theist is simply someone who believes in a God, you do not have to subscribe to any known religion to be a theist. Like I don't subscribe to any known religion but I am still a theist, Why, because I believe in God, but I don't subscribe to a religion. Again I don't expect you to gracefully concede this pint, but what can be done.

I think the word you're looking for is *deism*. The simple belief in God with no revealed traits is deism. Duh.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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5/7/2015 12:40:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 12:32:04 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 5/7/2015 12:03:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/7/2015 11:50:39 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/7/2015 9:13:40 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:40:56 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

Just another example of what? No doubt, you're attempting to say the atheist was representative of all atheists, but we don't have a holy rule book that tells us to murder certain people in certain ways nor are we unified in any way other than disbelief in gods, Mhykiel.

Much the same as you tried casting all theists as part of a religious denomination, When theism is simply belief in God, it doesn't necessarily entail having to follow any scriptures at, it just belief that a God exists.

Belief in God, on its own, is not theism, John. Theism is belief in a revealed god of a religion (a personal god). If you don't know the name of your god, then you are not a theist. Most contemporary theist have a holy book that does indeed say as I suggested in the other thread.

You are wrong, And I was right that I shouldn't expect you to concede that, Obviously, A theist is simply someone who believes in a God, you do not have to subscribe to any known religion to be a theist. Like I don't subscribe to any known religion but I am still a theist, Why, because I believe in God, but I don't subscribe to a religion. Again I don't expect you to gracefully concede this pint, but what can be done.

I think the word you're looking for is *deism*. The simple belief in God with no revealed traits is deism. Duh.

Actually the word I am not looking for but know, is theist.

To put it simply, theism is a belief in the existence of at least one god - nothing more, nothing less. Theism does not depend upon how many gods one believes in. Theism does not depend upon how the term "god" is defined. Theism does not depend upon how one arrives at their belief. Theism does not depend upon how one defends their belief. That theism only means "belief in a god" and nothing more can be difficult to understand because we don"t normally encounter theism in isolation.

http://atheism.about.com...

Duh.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,120
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5/7/2015 1:14:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 12:03:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/7/2015 11:50:39 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/7/2015 9:13:40 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:40:56 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

Just another example of what? No doubt, you're attempting to say the atheist was representative of all atheists, but we don't have a holy rule book that tells us to murder certain people in certain ways nor are we unified in any way other than disbelief in gods, Mhykiel.

Much the same as you tried casting all theists as part of a religious denomination, When theism is simply belief in God, it doesn't necessarily entail having to follow any scriptures at, it just belief that a God exists.

Belief in God, on its own, is not theism, John. Theism is belief in a revealed god of a religion (a personal god). If you don't know the name of your god, then you are not a theist. Most contemporary theist have a holy book that does indeed say as I suggested in the other thread.

You are wrong, And I was right that I shouldn't expect you to concede that, Obviously, A theist is simply someone who believes in a God, you do not have to subscribe to any known religion to be a theist. Like I don't subscribe to any known religion but I am still a theist, Why, because I believe in God, but I don't subscribe to a religion. Again I don't expect you to gracefully concede this pint, but what can be done.

You can drop the righteous indignation - you're not going to guilt me into changing my mind. You might change my mind by making your point though.

Do you know your god, John (Is he personal)? Did your god reveal himself to you through personal revelation? How did you learn of your god?

I will grant that I am trying to distinguish between deism and theism because your current view sounds like that of a deist, and in the past I would have solidly pegged you as a theist. I hope you will allow me to explore your belief. You are certainly not obliged to agree with my impression of your views.

On a side note, I don't concede *pints*. ;-)





Of course I don't expect you to concede this, and retract your original statement, But it would just as absurd if I said, remind me why anti-atheism is such a bad thing again.

Lol, the holy books encourage "anti-atheism". So, I'm surprised you find that 'absurd'.

Of course you want your cake and to eat it.

I am by no means perfect, John, so forgive me if I have been harsh. That being said, it seems to me the OP (and you) are mistaking theism and atheism as opposites of the same coin. Theism has very specific edicts, laws, commandments, axioms that must be followed or believed- they are not supposed to be optional. Failure to adhere is a no-no and makes one a sinner which causes separation from God and possibly some form of punishment beyond this world. Theists generally think their morality comes from God. Theists generally think God is watching them. Theists generally think they can talk to God and that he guides them. Theists generally think that God inspired the holy book. Theists generally think their version of God is the creator. There are probably other aspects of common theistic tendencies I am leaving out.

Atheism has disbelief of theists' claims. That's it! Theism and atheism are not equivalent opposites. If an atheist does something good or bad, it is not reflective of an 'atheistic worldview' unless it is disbelief. Imagine someone saying they did something, other than not have sex, because of celibacy. We would all be scratching our heads at such a statement. It is the same with atheism. Anything other than disbelief in theist' claims is not reflective of the views of all atheists.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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5/7/2015 1:26:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 1:14:07 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/7/2015 12:03:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/7/2015 11:50:39 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/7/2015 9:13:40 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:40:56 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

Just another example of what? No doubt, you're attempting to say the atheist was representative of all atheists, but we don't have a holy rule book that tells us to murder certain people in certain ways nor are we unified in any way other than disbelief in gods, Mhykiel.

Much the same as you tried casting all theists as part of a religious denomination, When theism is simply belief in God, it doesn't necessarily entail having to follow any scriptures at, it just belief that a God exists.

Belief in God, on its own, is not theism, John. Theism is belief in a revealed god of a religion (a personal god). If you don't know the name of your god, then you are not a theist. Most contemporary theist have a holy book that does indeed say as I suggested in the other thread.

You are wrong, And I was right that I shouldn't expect you to concede that, Obviously, A theist is simply someone who believes in a God, you do not have to subscribe to any known religion to be a theist. Like I don't subscribe to any known religion but I am still a theist, Why, because I believe in God, but I don't subscribe to a religion. Again I don't expect you to gracefully concede this pint, but what can be done.

You can drop the righteous indignation - you're not going to guilt me into changing my mind. You might change my mind by making your point though.

Know it's not guilt I want from you but honesty. Be honest and admit you casted all theists under the same umbrella, and it was a gross mis-characterization.


Do you know your god, John (Is he personal)? Did your god reveal himself to you through personal revelation? How did you learn of your god?

I will grant that I am trying to distinguish between deism and theism because your current view sounds like that of a deist, and in the past I would have solidly pegged you as a theist. I hope you will allow me to explore your belief. You are certainly not obliged to agree with my impression of your views.

On a side note, I don't concede *pints*. ;-)

You will concede pints and they will be over 99% alcohol proof, you know why, because I said so, that's why.

Now read this and concede that pint, then I might let you start on the vodka.

What is Theism?

To put it simply, theism is a belief in the existence of at least one god - nothing more, nothing less. Theism does not depend upon how many gods one believes in. Theism does not depend upon how the term "god" is defined. Theism does not depend upon how one arrives at their belief. Theism does not depend upon how one defends their belief. That theism only means "belief in a god" and nothing more can be difficult to understand because we don"t normally encounter theism in isolation.

http://atheism.about.com...






Of course I don't expect you to concede this, and retract your original statement, But it would just as absurd if I said, remind me why anti-atheism is such a bad thing again.

Lol, the holy books encourage "anti-atheism". So, I'm surprised you find that 'absurd'.

Of course you want your cake and to eat it.

I am by no means perfect, John, so forgive me if I have been harsh. That being said, it seems to me the OP (and you) are mistaking theism and atheism as opposites of the same coin. Theism has very specific edicts, laws, commandments, axioms that must be followed or believed- they are not supposed to be optional. Failure to adhere is a no-no and makes one a sinner which causes separation from God and possibly some form of punishment beyond this world. Theists generally think their morality comes from God. Theists generally think God is watching them. Theists generally think they can talk to God and that he guides them. Theists generally think that God inspired the holy book. Theists generally think their version of God is the creator. There are probably other aspects of common theistic tendencies I am leaving out.

Atheism has disbelief of theists' claims. That's it! Theism and atheism are not equivalent opposites. If an atheist does something good or bad, it is not reflective of an 'atheistic worldview' unless it is disbelief. Imagine someone saying they did something, other than not have sex, because of celibacy. We would all be scratching our heads at such a statement. It is the same with atheism. Anything other than disbelief in theist' claims is not reflective of the views of all atheists.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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5/7/2015 1:31:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

Just one more example of a gun nut going way too far about some minor issue that he took personally. The police say it was about parking, his wife says it, many of his neighbors corroborate that story. This has nothing to do with religion, except to those looking to make atheism seem as bad as they subconsciously recognize actual religions to be. It just isn't, and no manner of wishful thinking is going to change that.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,120
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5/7/2015 1:34:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 1:26:06 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/7/2015 1:14:07 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/7/2015 12:03:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/7/2015 11:50:39 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/7/2015 9:13:40 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:40:56 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

Just another example of what? No doubt, you're attempting to say the atheist was representative of all atheists, but we don't have a holy rule book that tells us to murder certain people in certain ways nor are we unified in any way other than disbelief in gods, Mhykiel.

Much the same as you tried casting all theists as part of a religious denomination, When theism is simply belief in God, it doesn't necessarily entail having to follow any scriptures at, it just belief that a God exists.

Belief in God, on its own, is not theism, John. Theism is belief in a revealed god of a religion (a personal god). If you don't know the name of your god, then you are not a theist. Most contemporary theist have a holy book that does indeed say as I suggested in the other thread.

You are wrong, And I was right that I shouldn't expect you to concede that, Obviously, A theist is simply someone who believes in a God, you do not have to subscribe to any known religion to be a theist. Like I don't subscribe to any known religion but I am still a theist, Why, because I believe in God, but I don't subscribe to a religion. Again I don't expect you to gracefully concede this pint, but what can be done.

You can drop the righteous indignation - you're not going to guilt me into changing my mind. You might change my mind by making your point though.

Know it's not guilt I want from you but honesty. Be honest and admit you casted all theists under the same umbrella, and it was a gross mis-characterization.


Do you know your god, John (Is he personal)? Did your god reveal himself to you through personal revelation? How did you learn of your god?

I will grant that I am trying to distinguish between deism and theism because your current view sounds like that of a deist, and in the past I would have solidly pegged you as a theist. I hope you will allow me to explore your belief. You are certainly not obliged to agree with my impression of your views.

On a side note, I don't concede *pints*. ;-)

You will concede pints and they will be over 99% alcohol proof, you know why, because I said so, that's why.


Now read this and concede that pint, then I might let you start on the vodka.


What is Theism?

To put it simply, theism is a belief in the existence of at least one god - nothing more, nothing less. Theism does not depend upon how many gods one believes in. Theism does not depend upon how the term "god" is defined. Theism does not depend upon how one arrives at their belief. Theism does not depend upon how one defends their belief. That theism only means "belief in a god" and nothing more can be difficult to understand because we don"t normally encounter theism in isolation.

http://atheism.about.com...

Your definition makes no distinction between theism, deism, polytheism, pantheism, or panentheism. Here is a much better explanation of theism.

Belief in the existence of a divine reality; usually referring to monotheism (one God), as opposed to pantheism (all is God), polytheism (many gods), and atheism (without God). Theistic religions such as Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all have the monotheistic belief in a God, whereas a polytheistic religion such as Hinduism holds a belief in many gods.

(Theism: Longer definition) Theism states that the existence and continuance of the universe is owed to one supreme Being, who is distinct from Creation. For this reason, theism proclaims a dualistic relation between God and the world, wherein God is a being who controls events from outside of the human world. The main question theism raises is whether God should be seen only as transcendent, that is, beyond the limits of human experience and the material world. Could God not also be seen as immanent in them as well, having existence and effect in human consciousness and the material world? Theists generally claim that attempts to make God immanent in humanity and nature are pantheistic, and therefore, unacceptable to theistic religion. The philosopher and theologian Paul Tillich reconciled these two views by claiming that "God is neither in another nor in the same space as the world. [God] is the creative ground of the spatial structure of the world, but he [sic] is not bound to the structure, positively or negatively. . . .God is immanent in the world as its permanent creative ground and is transcendent to the world through freedom."

http://www.pbs.org...








Of course I don't expect you to concede this, and retract your original statement, But it would just as absurd if I said, remind me why anti-atheism is such a bad thing again.

Lol, the holy books encourage "anti-atheism". So, I'm surprised you find that 'absurd'.

Of course you want your cake and to eat it.

I am by no means perfect, John, so forgive me if I have been harsh. That being said, it seems to me the OP (and you) are mistaking theism and atheism as opposites of the same coin. Theism has very specific edicts, laws, commandments, axioms that must be followed or believed- they are not supposed to be optional. Failure to adhere is a no-no and makes one a sinner which causes separation from God and possibly some form of punishment beyond this world. Theists generally think their morality comes from God. Theists generally think God is watching them. Theists generally think they can talk to God and that he guides them. Theists generally think that God inspired the holy book. Theists generally think their version of God is the creator. There are probably other aspects of common theistic tendencies I am leaving out.

Atheism has disbelief of theists' claims. That's it! Theism and atheism are not equivalent opposites. If an atheist does something good or bad, it is not reflective of an 'atheistic worldview' unless it is disbelief. Imagine someone saying they did something, other than not have sex, because of celibacy. We would all be scratching our heads at such a statement. It is the same with atheism. Anything other than disbelief in theist' claims is not reflective of the views of all atheists.
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johnlubba
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5/7/2015 1:43:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 1:34:37 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/7/2015 1:26:06 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/7/2015 1:14:07 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/7/2015 12:03:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/7/2015 11:50:39 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/7/2015 9:13:40 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:40:56 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

Just another example of what? No doubt, you're attempting to say the atheist was representative of all atheists, but we don't have a holy rule book that tells us to murder certain people in certain ways nor are we unified in any way other than disbelief in gods, Mhykiel.

Much the same as you tried casting all theists as part of a religious denomination, When theism is simply belief in God, it doesn't necessarily entail having to follow any scriptures at, it just belief that a God exists.

Belief in God, on its own, is not theism, John. Theism is belief in a revealed god of a religion (a personal god). If you don't know the name of your god, then you are not a theist. Most contemporary theist have a holy book that does indeed say as I suggested in the other thread.

You are wrong, And I was right that I shouldn't expect you to concede that, Obviously, A theist is simply someone who believes in a God, you do not have to subscribe to any known religion to be a theist. Like I don't subscribe to any known religion but I am still a theist, Why, because I believe in God, but I don't subscribe to a religion. Again I don't expect you to gracefully concede this pint, but what can be done.

You can drop the righteous indignation - you're not going to guilt me into changing my mind. You might change my mind by making your point though.

Know it's not guilt I want from you but honesty. Be honest and admit you casted all theists under the same umbrella, and it was a gross mis-characterization.


Do you know your god, John (Is he personal)? Did your god reveal himself to you through personal revelation? How did you learn of your god?

I will grant that I am trying to distinguish between deism and theism because your current view sounds like that of a deist, and in the past I would have solidly pegged you as a theist. I hope you will allow me to explore your belief. You are certainly not obliged to agree with my impression of your views.

On a side note, I don't concede *pints*. ;-)

You will concede pints and they will be over 99% alcohol proof, you know why, because I said so, that's why.


Now read this and concede that pint, then I might let you start on the vodka.


What is Theism?

To put it simply, theism is a belief in the existence of at least one god - nothing more, nothing less. Theism does not depend upon how many gods one believes in. Theism does not depend upon how the term "god" is defined. Theism does not depend upon how one arrives at their belief. Theism does not depend upon how one defends their belief. That theism only means "belief in a god" and nothing more can be difficult to understand because we don"t normally encounter theism in isolation.

http://atheism.about.com...

Your definition makes no distinction between theism, deism, polytheism, pantheism, or panentheism. Here is a much better explanation of theism.

It doesn't have to make the distinction, It simply means belief in God or Gods, you know that, but as I said I don't expect you to concede that. But here further clarification .

Theism

the belief that God exists or that many gods exist

http://www.merriam-webster.com...


Belief in the existence of a divine reality; usually referring to monotheism (one God), as opposed to pantheism (all is God), polytheism (many gods), and atheism (without God). Theistic religions such as Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all have the monotheistic belief in a God, whereas a polytheistic religion such as Hinduism holds a belief in many gods.

You fail to take note that the word usually does not mean necessarily, this is only a more narrow definition, not the broader one.


(Theism: Longer definition) Theism states that the existence and continuance of the universe is owed to one supreme Being, who is distinct from Creation. For this reason, theism proclaims a dualistic relation between God and the world, wherein God is a being who controls events from outside of the human world. The main question theism raises is whether God should be seen only as transcendent, that is, beyond the limits of human experience and the material world. Could God not also be seen as immanent in them as well, having existence and effect in human consciousness and the material world?

Irrelevant

Theists generally claim that attempts to make God immanent in humanity and nature are pantheistic, and therefore, unacceptable to theistic religion. The philosopher and theologian Paul Tillich reconciled these two views by claiming that "God is neither in another nor in the same space as the world. [God] is the creative ground of the spatial structure of the world, but he [sic] is not bound to the structure, positively or negatively. . . .God is immanent in the world as its permanent creative ground and is transcendent to the world through freedom."


Again irrelevant and usually does not mean necessarily, it entails a narrower definition and not the broadest definition.

http://www.pbs.org...








Of course I don't expect you to concede this, and retract your original statement, But it would just as absurd if I said, remind me why anti-atheism is such a bad thing again.

Lol, the holy books encourage "anti-atheism". So, I'm surprised you find that 'absurd'.

Of course you want your cake and to eat it.

I am by no means perfect, John, so forgive me if I have been harsh. That being said, it seems to me the OP (and you) are mistaking theism and atheism as opposites of the same coin. Theism has very specific edicts, laws, commandments, axioms that must be followed or believed- they are not supposed to be optional. Failure to adhere is a no-no and makes one a sinner which causes separation from God and possibly some form of punishment beyond this world. Theists generally think their morality comes from God. Theists generally think God is watching them. Theists generally think they can talk to God and that he guides them. Theists generally think that God inspired the holy book. Theists generally think their version of God is the creator. There are probably other aspects of common theistic tendencies I am leaving out.

Atheism has disbelief of theists' claims. That's it! Theism and atheism are not equivalent opposites. If an atheist does something good or bad, it is not reflective of an 'atheistic worldview' unless it is disbelief. Imagine someone saying they did something, other than not have sex, because of celibacy. We would all be scratching our heads at such a statement. It is the same with atheism. Anything other than disbelief in theist' claims is not reflective of the views of all atheists.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,120
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5/7/2015 2:34:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Do you know your god, John (Is he personal)? Did your god reveal himself to you through personal revelation? How did you learn of your god?

No answer?

Deism is the belief in a creator, who made the world but does not take a personal interest in it -- doesn't require worship, answer prayers, judge behavior, or necessarily promise a life after death (unless that was part of the original creation). Deism is a fairly benign belief, because there are no consequences for accepting or rejecting it.

Theism is the belief in an active, interventionist god who not only created the world (and some believe fine-tuned it for human use), but also may require worship, answer prayers, judge sinners, and may have created a divine son or other entities to live among humans. Theists are 100 percent certain their god(s) exist, and have faith in this without any objective, verifiable evidence. There are many theistic religions, each of which insists it is the only true one.


http://www.quora.com...

Which one of these applies to you, John? I am still convinced you are a deist and are confusing your own belief as theism.


What is Theism?

To put it simply, theism is a belief in the existence of at least one god - nothing more, nothing less. Theism does not depend upon how many gods one believes in. Theism does not depend upon how the term "god" is defined. Theism does not depend upon how one arrives at their belief. Theism does not depend upon how one defends their belief. That theism only means "belief in a god" and nothing more can be difficult to understand because we don"t normally encounter theism in isolation.

http://atheism.about.com...

Your definition makes no distinction between theism, deism, polytheism, pantheism, or panentheism. Here is a much better explanation of theism.

It doesn't have to make the distinction, It simply means belief in God or Gods, you know that, but as I said I don't expect you to concede that. But here further clarification .

Theism

the belief that God exists or that many gods exist

http://www.merriam-webster.com...



Belief in the existence of a divine reality; usually referring to monotheism (one God), as opposed to pantheism (all is God), polytheism (many gods), and atheism (without God). Theistic religions such as Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all have the monotheistic belief in a God, whereas a polytheistic religion such as Hinduism holds a belief in many gods.

You fail to take note that the word usually does not mean necessarily, this is only a more narrow definition, not the broader one.

No, I have been consistently generalizing. I'm pretty sure you will not find an unqualified statement from me about this. If so, I was wrong.


(Theism: Longer definition) Theism states that the existence and continuance of the universe is owed to one supreme Being, who is distinct from Creation. For this reason, theism proclaims a dualistic relation between God and the world, wherein God is a being who controls events from outside of the human world. The main question theism raises is whether God should be seen only as transcendent, that is, beyond the limits of human experience and the material world. Could God not also be seen as immanent in them as well, having existence and effect in human consciousness and the material world?

Irrelevant



Theists generally claim that attempts to make God immanent in humanity and nature are pantheistic, and therefore, unacceptable to theistic religion. The philosopher and theologian Paul Tillich reconciled these two views by claiming that "God is neither in another nor in the same space as the world. [God] is the creative ground of the spatial structure of the world, but he [sic] is not bound to the structure, positively or negatively. . . .God is immanent in the world as its permanent creative ground and is transcendent to the world through freedom."


Again irrelevant and usually does not mean necessarily, it entails a narrower definition and not the broadest definition.

http://www.pbs.org...
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Pase66
Posts: 775
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5/7/2015 3:12:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

That guy doesn't represent Atheists, just like terrorists don't represent muslims, and abortion clinic bombers don't represent christians.
Check out these Current Debates
It Cannot be Shown that The Qur'an is Revelation from God
http://www.debate.org...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/7/2015 3:16:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 1:14:07 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/7/2015 12:03:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
A theist is simply someone who believes in a God, you do not have to subscribe to any known religion to be a theist. Like I don't subscribe to any known religion but I am still a theist, Why, because I believe in God, but I don't subscribe to a religion. Again I don't expect you to gracefully concede this pint, but what can be done.
I will grant that I am trying to distinguish between deism and theism because your current view sounds like that of a deist,

I don't intend to pursue this discussion myself, but have contributed some etymology at: [http://www.debate.org...] I reproduce it below:

At 5/7/2015 3:11:46 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Etymologically, the meaning of theism has changed over time. In the 1670s it just meant what you understand it to mean: "belief in a deity or deities." By 1711, it meant "belief in one god" as distinct from polytheism (as other members have mentioned in the other discussion), but by 1714 it meant "belief in the existence of God as creator and ruler of the universe." [http://www.etymonline.com...] This is consistent with associations from the capitalisation of 'God', as opposed to 'a god'.

As the Century dictionary opined:
Theism assumes a living relation of God to his creatures, but does not define it. It differs from deism in that the latter is negative and involves a denial of revelation, while the former is affirmative, and underlies Christianity. One may be a theist and not be a Christian, but he cannot be a Christian and not be a theist. [http://www.global-language.com...]

I have no interest in exploring whether you are Deist or theist, John. You might be either, but you cannot be both.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,120
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5/7/2015 4:02:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 3:16:35 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/7/2015 1:14:07 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 5/7/2015 12:03:44 PM, johnlubba wrote:
A theist is simply someone who believes in a God, you do not have to subscribe to any known religion to be a theist. Like I don't subscribe to any known religion but I am still a theist, Why, because I believe in God, but I don't subscribe to a religion. Again I don't expect you to gracefully concede this pint, but what can be done.
I will grant that I am trying to distinguish between deism and theism because your current view sounds like that of a deist,

I don't intend to pursue this discussion myself, but have contributed some etymology at: [http://www.debate.org...] I reproduce it below:

At 5/7/2015 3:11:46 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Etymologically, the meaning of theism has changed over time. In the 1670s it just meant what you understand it to mean: "belief in a deity or deities." By 1711, it meant "belief in one god" as distinct from polytheism (as other members have mentioned in the other discussion), but by 1714 it meant "belief in the existence of God as creator and ruler of the universe." [http://www.etymonline.com...] This is consistent with associations from the capitalisation of 'God', as opposed to 'a god'.

As the Century dictionary opined:
Theism assumes a living relation of God to his creatures, but does not define it. It differs from deism in that the latter is negative and involves a denial of revelation, while the former is affirmative, and underlies Christianity. One may be a theist and not be a Christian, but he cannot be a Christian and not be a theist. [http://www.global-language.com...]

I have no interest in exploring whether you are Deist or theist, John. You might be either, but you cannot be both.

Thanks for the illumination, Ruv.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
TBR
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5/7/2015 4:11:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

Where could a possibly find a religiously motivated murder spree with a body count higher than three!!!
Mhykiel
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5/7/2015 5:12:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 4:11:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

Where could a possibly find a religiously motivated murder spree with a body count higher than three!!!

No one has ever killed anybody for atheism. That's the party line isn't it.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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5/7/2015 5:38:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

Where could a possibly find a religiously motivated murder spree with a body count higher than three!!!

No one has ever killed anybody for atheism. That's the party line isn't it.

Well.... First, there is no party to have a party line. Second, I think anyone who is talking about religion and killing is talking about the clear connection between mass killing and religion, not an argument over a parking spot. And three, if I have to put three hash-marks on the scoreboard, religion is still winning the body count race by... well lots and lots.
Mhykiel
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5/7/2015 6:47:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 5:55:01 PM, TBR wrote:
See, you got this parking issue, and it takes me 5 sec to be overwhelmed with these stories

http://www.usatoday.com...

Obviously he is suffering from mental disease, or extremely upset about something. This one pastor should not be taken as an example of christian tenets and morals.

But the actions of the communist states and french revolution were directly related to ridding the world of religions. because that is what every Atheist wants. They all want to destroy region and freedoms. What's so devious is this agenda of death (abortion, euthanasia), aberrant behavior (incest, homosexuality) , destruction of the family unit (state should raise kids, reading to children unfair advantage), the construction of a welfare state to make people sheep, is all sold under the heading of "Freedom" "justice" and change for a better society.

Just like how atheist pass illogic off as if it some rule of reasonable thought (null hypothesis, default position, can't prove negative claim).

Notice a trend? I think they call it bait and switch.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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5/7/2015 6:56:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

Obviously he is suffering from mental disease, or extremely upset about something. This one pastor should not be taken as an example of christian tenets and morals.
Yup.


But the actions of the communist states and french revolution were directly related to ridding the world of religions. because that is what every Atheist wants. They all want to destroy region and freedoms. What's so devious is this agenda of death (abortion, euthanasia), aberrant behavior (incest, homosexuality) , destruction of the family unit (state should raise kids, reading to children unfair advantage), the construction of a welfare state to make people sheep, is all sold under the heading of "Freedom" "justice" and change for a better society.
Can I just snicker at this and move along?


Just like how atheist pass illogic off as if it some rule of reasonable thought (null hypothesis, default position, can't prove negative claim).

Notice a trend? I think they call it bait and switch.
What bait and switch?

Look. The violence attached to religion is a known quantity. It happens! There is no real need to defend them, but don't deny it. Something that powerful is bound to have some sell than desired outcomes.
Double_R
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5/7/2015 7:17:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

You forgot to make your point.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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5/7/2015 11:33:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 7:17:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

You forgot to make your point.

Implying he ever had one?
Mhykiel
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5/8/2015 12:36:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/7/2015 11:33:57 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 5/7/2015 7:17:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 5/6/2015 10:21:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Atheist shoots 3 Muslims in the head.
http://www.nytimes.com...
His wife says he believes in equality. Supports abortion and gay rights. That despite his atheist rants on facebook, he killed the 3 people over a parking spot dispute and not religious intolerance.

You forgot to make your point.

Implying he ever had one?

The man was a staunch Atheist. It was a world view, yes I just said world view. Does it mean all atheist have the same idea about the same things.. no it doesn't. but there are some facets of Atheist as a group that tend to be in agreement. Pretty much it's safe to say most atheist are naturalist. Call it stereotyping if you want but general traits have already been identified in surveys. (they are not trusted, white, college educated, 30-60, science minded, ect...)

Anyways back to my rant.. this man elected to be an atheist. It matched with his personality. He wanted to belong to a death cult legally allowed and even politically influential. Obviously Atheist in general don't care or do not accept life as having some intrinsic value.. why should you? We are all just dancing to our molecules as Richard Dawkins says.

And also being an Atheist appealed to him, because if his neighbors didn't see that parking spot the way he did.. well they were wrong. He got frustrated because others didn't agree with him. And with life being so cheap, murder was an inevitable outcome.