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Numbers 31

Nicoszon_the_Great
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5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.

https://www.biblegateway.com...
baddebater
Posts: 200
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5/8/2015 10:08:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com... : :

Have you ever tried to read the Bible from a different viewpoint than your own?
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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5/8/2015 10:10:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 10:08:07 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com... : :

Have you ever tried to read the Bible from a different viewpoint than your own?

You're going to have to elaborate some more because I have read the bible when I was rather pious and I've more recently read over it again as an atheist.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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5/8/2015 10:38:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com...

Out of curiosity, could you point out "rape" in the passage above, or any word that should properly be translated "rape". I ask due to your comment, "WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children."
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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5/8/2015 10:39:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 10:38:47 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com...

Out of curiosity, could you point out "rape" in the passage above, or any word that should properly be translated "rape". I ask due to your comment, "WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children."

18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
baddebater
Posts: 200
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5/8/2015 10:40:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 10:10:07 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:08:07 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com... : :

Have you ever tried to read the Bible from a different viewpoint than your own?

You're going to have to elaborate some more because I have read the bible when I was rather pious and I've more recently read over it again as an atheist. : :

Try read it from God's point of view, knowing that his people aren't listening to him, except for his servants.
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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5/8/2015 10:44:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 10:40:32 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:10:07 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:08:07 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com... : :

Have you ever tried to read the Bible from a different viewpoint than your own?

You're going to have to elaborate some more because I have read the bible when I was rather pious and I've more recently read over it again as an atheist. : :

Try read it from God's point of view, knowing that his people aren't listening to him, except for his servants.

Well the god of the abrahamic faiths is, allegedly, beyond human comprehension. However, it is never said anywhere that god made any effort to show himself to anyone but his servants until the birth of christ, and even then it is through a medium. It's not so much that his people aren't listening, they're never approached by him. If you can find a passage wherein God himself goes to the Midianites as he did to the Israelites I'd appreciate it.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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5/8/2015 10:47:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 10:39:59 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:38:47 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com...

Out of curiosity, could you point out "rape" in the passage above, or any word that should properly be translated "rape". I ask due to your comment, "WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children."

18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

I saw that. I was wondering where the "rape" part comes in. I see that they were to keep alive, or spare, the women who were virigns. That doesn't mean rape them. It means "spare them, let them live, keep them alive."
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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5/8/2015 10:50:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 10:47:29 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:39:59 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:38:47 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com...

Out of curiosity, could you point out "rape" in the passage above, or any word that should properly be translated "rape". I ask due to your comment, "WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children."

18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

I saw that. I was wondering where the "rape" part comes in. I see that they were to keep alive, or spare, the women who were virigns. That doesn't mean rape them. It means "spare them, let them live, keep them alive."

It takes a certain na"vet" to think that a society that commonly keeps concubines and harems would not take the statement "Take them for yourselves" for anything but "Make them your wives and concubines, by force if necessary"
baddebater
Posts: 200
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5/8/2015 10:53:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 10:44:48 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:40:32 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:10:07 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:08:07 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com... : :

Have you ever tried to read the Bible from a different viewpoint than your own?

You're going to have to elaborate some more because I have read the bible when I was rather pious and I've more recently read over it again as an atheist. : :

Try read it from God's point of view, knowing that his people aren't listening to him, except for his servants.

Well the god of the abrahamic faiths is, allegedly, beyond human comprehension. However, it is never said anywhere that god made any effort to show himself to anyone but his servants until the birth of christ, and even then it is through a medium. It's not so much that his people aren't listening, they're never approached by him. If you can find a passage wherein God himself goes to the Midianites as he did to the Israelites I'd appreciate it. : :

Even Christians need proof that the god of Abraham exists. They believe what they read instead of believing that God can still speak through a servant today. Can you imagine hearing God speak into your mind today and try to tell others about it? They would think you're crazy and refer you to a psychiatrist.
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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5/8/2015 10:56:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 10:53:15 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:44:48 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:40:32 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:10:07 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:08:07 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com... : :

Have you ever tried to read the Bible from a different viewpoint than your own?

You're going to have to elaborate some more because I have read the bible when I was rather pious and I've more recently read over it again as an atheist. : :

Try read it from God's point of view, knowing that his people aren't listening to him, except for his servants.

Well the god of the abrahamic faiths is, allegedly, beyond human comprehension. However, it is never said anywhere that god made any effort to show himself to anyone but his servants until the birth of christ, and even then it is through a medium. It's not so much that his people aren't listening, they're never approached by him. If you can find a passage wherein God himself goes to the Midianites as he did to the Israelites I'd appreciate it. : :

Even Christians need proof that the god of Abraham exists. They believe what they read instead of believing that God can still speak through a servant today. Can you imagine hearing God speak into your mind today and try to tell others about it? They would think you're crazy and refer you to a psychiatrist.

As well they should, the same psychiatric attention that I believe Abraham would've benefitted from.
baddebater
Posts: 200
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5/8/2015 11:00:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 10:56:31 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:53:15 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:44:48 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:40:32 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:10:07 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:08:07 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com... : :

Have you ever tried to read the Bible from a different viewpoint than your own?

You're going to have to elaborate some more because I have read the bible when I was rather pious and I've more recently read over it again as an atheist. : :

Try read it from God's point of view, knowing that his people aren't listening to him, except for his servants.

Well the god of the abrahamic faiths is, allegedly, beyond human comprehension. However, it is never said anywhere that god made any effort to show himself to anyone but his servants until the birth of christ, and even then it is through a medium. It's not so much that his people aren't listening, they're never approached by him. If you can find a passage wherein God himself goes to the Midianites as he did to the Israelites I'd appreciate it. : :

Even Christians need proof that the god of Abraham exists. They believe what they read instead of believing that God can still speak through a servant today. Can you imagine hearing God speak into your mind today and try to tell others about it? They would think you're crazy and refer you to a psychiatrist.

As well they should, the same psychiatric attention that I believe Abraham would've benefitted from. : :

Fear of the unknown is a real fear.
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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5/8/2015 11:02:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 11:00:39 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:56:31 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:53:15 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:44:48 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:40:32 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:10:07 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:08:07 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com... : :

Have you ever tried to read the Bible from a different viewpoint than your own?

You're going to have to elaborate some more because I have read the bible when I was rather pious and I've more recently read over it again as an atheist. : :

Try read it from God's point of view, knowing that his people aren't listening to him, except for his servants.

Well the god of the abrahamic faiths is, allegedly, beyond human comprehension. However, it is never said anywhere that god made any effort to show himself to anyone but his servants until the birth of christ, and even then it is through a medium. It's not so much that his people aren't listening, they're never approached by him. If you can find a passage wherein God himself goes to the Midianites as he did to the Israelites I'd appreciate it. : :

Even Christians need proof that the god of Abraham exists. They believe what they read instead of believing that God can still speak through a servant today. Can you imagine hearing God speak into your mind today and try to tell others about it? They would think you're crazy and refer you to a psychiatrist.

As well they should, the same psychiatric attention that I believe Abraham would've benefitted from. : :

Fear of the unknown is a real fear.

Alright, you seem to have diverged from the point.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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5/8/2015 11:08:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 10:50:40 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:47:29 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:39:59 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:38:47 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com...

Out of curiosity, could you point out "rape" in the passage above, or any word that should properly be translated "rape". I ask due to your comment, "WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children."

18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

I saw that. I was wondering where the "rape" part comes in. I see that they were to keep alive, or spare, the women who were virigns. That doesn't mean rape them. It means "spare them, let them live, keep them alive."

It takes a certain na"vet" to think that a society that commonly keeps concubines and harems would not take the statement "Take them for yourselves" for anything but "Make them your wives and concubines, by force if necessary"

That's an unwarranted assumption on your part, and certainly shouldn't be stated as a fact. The passage could just as well mean, "Make them your servants."
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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5/8/2015 11:12:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 11:08:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:50:40 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:47:29 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:39:59 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:38:47 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com...

Out of curiosity, could you point out "rape" in the passage above, or any word that should properly be translated "rape". I ask due to your comment, "WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children."

18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

I saw that. I was wondering where the "rape" part comes in. I see that they were to keep alive, or spare, the women who were virigns. That doesn't mean rape them. It means "spare them, let them live, keep them alive."

It takes a certain na"vet" to think that a society that commonly keeps concubines and harems would not take the statement "Take them for yourselves" for anything but "Make them your wives and concubines, by force if necessary"

That's an unwarranted assumption on your part, and certainly shouldn't be stated as a fact. The passage could just as well mean, "Make them your servants."

Is enslaving young girls any better? Does it actually protect them from sexual abuse?
Gentorev
Posts: 2,924
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5/8/2015 11:15:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 10:10:07 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:08:07 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com... : :

Have you ever tried to read the Bible from a different viewpoint than your own?

You're going to have to elaborate some more because I have read the bible when I was rather pious and I've more recently read over it again as an atheist.

Athiest like yourself do not believe in any god, so according to you, the passage you refer to never happened, so why would a godless person be so concerned.

Because you have chosen to abandon the Biblical God is no concern of ours, so go and whinge to your atheist mates.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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5/8/2015 11:25:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 11:12:56 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 11:08:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:50:40 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:47:29 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:39:59 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:38:47 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com...

Out of curiosity, could you point out "rape" in the passage above, or any word that should properly be translated "rape". I ask due to your comment, "WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children."

18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

I saw that. I was wondering where the "rape" part comes in. I see that they were to keep alive, or spare, the women who were virigns. That doesn't mean rape them. It means "spare them, let them live, keep them alive."

It takes a certain na"vet" to think that a society that commonly keeps concubines and harems would not take the statement "Take them for yourselves" for anything but "Make them your wives and concubines, by force if necessary"

That's an unwarranted assumption on your part, and certainly shouldn't be stated as a fact. The passage could just as well mean, "Make them your servants."

Is enslaving young girls any better? Does it actually protect them from sexual abuse?

Better than what? Killing them? I guess it depends on how one looks at it. To me, servitude would be a step up from death.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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5/8/2015 11:28:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 11:15:35 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:10:07 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:08:07 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com... : :

Have you ever tried to read the Bible from a different viewpoint than your own?

You're going to have to elaborate some more because I have read the bible when I was rather pious and I've more recently read over it again as an atheist.

Athiest like yourself do not believe in any god, so according to you, the passage you refer to never happened, so why would a godless person be so concerned.

Because you have chosen to abandon the Biblical God is no concern of ours, so go and whinge to your atheist mates.

1. I was asking how christians would justify such a passage as its contents were a deciding factor in my abandoning religion all together.
2. Just because god may not exist doesn't mean that this passage did happen, its very likely that the Israelites carried out many of the acts they claim in the bible with varying degrees of accuracy.
3. I'm concerned because if one accepts this passage as morally correct it stands to reason that they may find similar actions taken by modern leaders of their faith justifiable as well.
4. If its not any of your concern why did you bother putting your two cents in if not to do anything but 'tell off' a non-believer?
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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5/8/2015 11:28:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 11:25:19 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 11:12:56 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 11:08:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:50:40 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:47:29 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:39:59 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:38:47 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com...

Out of curiosity, could you point out "rape" in the passage above, or any word that should properly be translated "rape". I ask due to your comment, "WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children."

18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

I saw that. I was wondering where the "rape" part comes in. I see that they were to keep alive, or spare, the women who were virigns. That doesn't mean rape them. It means "spare them, let them live, keep them alive."

It takes a certain na"vet" to think that a society that commonly keeps concubines and harems would not take the statement "Take them for yourselves" for anything but "Make them your wives and concubines, by force if necessary"

That's an unwarranted assumption on your part, and certainly shouldn't be stated as a fact. The passage could just as well mean, "Make them your servants."

Is enslaving young girls any better? Does it actually protect them from sexual abuse?

Better than what? Killing them? I guess it depends on how one looks at it. To me, servitude would be a step up from death.

To me not enslaving, raping, and killing people with no justification is better still.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,263
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5/8/2015 11:53:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com...

This will probably provide some answers for you.

http://haydock1859.tripod.com...
Nicoszon_the_Great
Posts: 167
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5/9/2015 12:01:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 11:53:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com...

This will probably provide some answers for you.

http://haydock1859.tripod.com...

Where does your source get this information? Little of it seems to be within the scripture itself.
bulproof
Posts: 25,237
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5/9/2015 12:09:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 11:25:19 PM, annanicole wrote:
Better than what? Killing them? I guess it depends on how one looks at it. To me, servitude would be a step up from death.
According to your beliefs there is absolutely nothing better than death.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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5/9/2015 12:09:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 10:40:32 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:10:07 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:08:07 PM, baddebater wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com... : :

Have you ever tried to read the Bible from a different viewpoint than your own?

You're going to have to elaborate some more because I have read the bible when I was rather pious and I've more recently read over it again as an atheist. : :

Try read it from God's point of view, knowing that his people aren't listening to him, except for his servants.

Okay, I'm the God of Abraham, I'm a selfish, petty, psychotic dictator who sends out my lieutenants with armies to kill anyone that doesn't listen to me or do what I command.

Is that better?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Geogeer
Posts: 4,263
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5/9/2015 12:11:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/9/2015 12:01:01 AM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 11:53:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/8/2015 9:44:36 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
So this was the passage in the bible that pushed me over the fence into Atheism.

For convenience of the reader I'll be putting up the relevant verses up but I'll also link the site I'm pulling this from.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord"s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam"s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord"s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That last line is what got me, there's absolutely no distinction between adult and young women. It is reasonable to believe, based on the wording of the passage, that its nearly exclusively younger women.

Why, in any god's name, is this excusable? Why would any deity you can call moral command such an action?

It's never even brought up in preceding passages WHAT exactly the Midianites did to deserve the genocide and rape of their children.

I've heard a couple arguments to this, but all of them have been very unconvincing.


https://www.biblegateway.com...

This will probably provide some answers for you.

http://haydock1859.tripod.com...

Where does your source get this information? Little of it seems to be within the scripture itself.

This is traditional Catholic teachings using a large number of historical church teachers.
http://haydock1859.tripod.com...

It is a bit of a compendium.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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5/9/2015 12:12:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/9/2015 12:09:26 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/8/2015 11:25:19 PM, annanicole wrote:
Better than what? Killing them? I guess it depends on how one looks at it. To me, servitude would be a step up from death.
According to your beliefs there is absolutely nothing better than death.

Death is something not to be feared, ideally. I'd prefer, however, to live as long as I can. I simply have more experience with it.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bulproof
Posts: 25,237
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5/9/2015 12:15:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/9/2015 12:12:37 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/9/2015 12:09:26 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/8/2015 11:25:19 PM, annanicole wrote:
Better than what? Killing them? I guess it depends on how one looks at it. To me, servitude would be a step up from death.
According to your beliefs there is absolutely nothing better than death.

Death is something not to be feared, ideally. I'd prefer, however, to live as long as I can. I simply have more experience with it.

So you don't really believe what you claim to believe? If you did you would welcome death with open arms, the sooner the better.
That is why abortion is god's greatest gift, isn't it?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
dee-em
Posts: 6,472
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5/9/2015 10:22:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 11:08:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:50:40 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:47:29 PM, annanicole wrote:

I saw that. I was wondering where the "rape" part comes in. I see that they were to keep alive, or spare, the women who were virigns. That doesn't mean rape them. It means "spare them, let them live, keep them alive."

It takes a certain na"vet" to think that a society that commonly keeps concubines and harems would not take the statement "Take them for yourselves" for anything but "Make them your wives and concubines, by force if necessary"

That's an unwarranted assumption on your part, and certainly shouldn't be stated as a fact. The passage could just as well mean, "Make them your servants."

How does being a virgin make a girl a better servant?

For that matter how are girls better servants than boys?
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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5/9/2015 11:43:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/9/2015 10:22:36 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 5/8/2015 11:08:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:50:40 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:47:29 PM, annanicole wrote:

I saw that. I was wondering where the "rape" part comes in. I see that they were to keep alive, or spare, the women who were virigns. That doesn't mean rape them. It means "spare them, let them live, keep them alive."

It takes a certain na"vet" to think that a society that commonly keeps concubines and harems would not take the statement "Take them for yourselves" for anything but "Make them your wives and concubines, by force if necessary"

That's an unwarranted assumption on your part, and certainly shouldn't be stated as a fact. The passage could just as well mean, "Make them your servants."

How does being a virgin make a girl a better servant?

For that matter how are girls better servants than boys?

It doesn't, and they aren't. The idea was not, "Spare those who will be more efficient servants."
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bulproof
Posts: 25,237
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5/9/2015 11:52:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/9/2015 11:43:23 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/9/2015 10:22:36 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 5/8/2015 11:08:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:50:40 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:47:29 PM, annanicole wrote:

I saw that. I was wondering where the "rape" part comes in. I see that they were to keep alive, or spare, the women who were virigns. That doesn't mean rape them. It means "spare them, let them live, keep them alive."

It takes a certain na"vet" to think that a society that commonly keeps concubines and harems would not take the statement "Take them for yourselves" for anything but "Make them your wives and concubines, by force if necessary"

That's an unwarranted assumption on your part, and certainly shouldn't be stated as a fact. The passage could just as well mean, "Make them your servants."

How does being a virgin make a girl a better servant?

For that matter how are girls better servants than boys?

It doesn't, and they aren't. The idea was not, "Spare those who will be more efficient servants."

No. The intention was to save those who haven't been fuked yet so that you can be the first. For some reason beyond my comprehension primitive men still believe that.
Of course since most girls were married off at puberty they were also indulging their paedophile tendency's. WIN WIN for the vulgar barbarians who were god's most favoured.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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5/9/2015 11:56:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/9/2015 11:52:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/9/2015 11:43:23 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/9/2015 10:22:36 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 5/8/2015 11:08:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:50:40 PM, Nicoszon_the_Great wrote:
At 5/8/2015 10:47:29 PM, annanicole wrote:

I saw that. I was wondering where the "rape" part comes in. I see that they were to keep alive, or spare, the women who were virigns. That doesn't mean rape them. It means "spare them, let them live, keep them alive."

It takes a certain na"vet" to think that a society that commonly keeps concubines and harems would not take the statement "Take them for yourselves" for anything but "Make them your wives and concubines, by force if necessary"

That's an unwarranted assumption on your part, and certainly shouldn't be stated as a fact. The passage could just as well mean, "Make them your servants."

How does being a virgin make a girl a better servant?

For that matter how are girls better servants than boys?

It doesn't, and they aren't. The idea was not, "Spare those who will be more efficient servants."

No. The intention was to save those who haven't been fuked yet so that you can be the first. For some reason beyond my comprehension primitive men still believe that.
Of course since most girls were married off at puberty they were also indulging their paedophile tendency's. WIN WIN for the vulgar barbarians who were god's most favoured.

Well, when you write the Bulproof Commentary on Numbers, you can include that thought.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."