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All supernatural gods are mythical.

Skyangel
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5/13/2015 4:21:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Most mature adults understand that all supernatural gods are mythical.
Supernatural Gods are all personified forces of nature.

Why do any people still worship and idolize any gods in this day and age?

Why do you think people have the need to hold on to their invisible supernatural characters and stories about an after life?

Do you think humans will ever grow up mentally and put away superstitious beliefs?
RuvDraba
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5/14/2015 2:40:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 2:19:20 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Would any God worshipers like to explain why they continue to worship their invisible idols?

I'm not a person of religious faith, Sky, but in a pluralistic society, statistics show that 60-70% of people adopt the beliefs of their parents (higher in societies with less diversity.) In particular, the biggest predictors of the faith you adopt are the faith of your father, and the quality of your relationship with him.

I talk a lot to people of theological beliefs, and in my experience they argue most passionately for certainty, comfort and a sense of purpose. That's not to say that people without faith lack comfort or purpose, but they seem to believe that without faith -- their faith -- they'd lack these things.

Interestingly, those are traditionally also qualities that a good father brings a child.

Do you think humans will ever grow up mentally and put away superstitious beliefs?
Individually -- yes. definitely. Socially? I suspect it will depend on how we raise and educate children. The better the secular education, their training in critical thinking, being raised to dignity, autonomy and self-examination, the less kids will submit to and hang on the confected authorities of religiosity.

Hope that might be useful.
12_13
Posts: 1,364
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5/14/2015 5:27:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/13/2015 4:21:28 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Most mature adults understand that all supernatural gods are mythical.
Supernatural Gods are all personified forces of nature.

Why do any people still worship and idolize any gods in this day and age?

Why do you think people have the need to hold on to their invisible supernatural characters and stories about an after life?

I don"t need afterlife. And I don"t believe in the Bible God because of that. I believe Bible God, because his message is truth, in my opinion. Bible is correct about what people are (often evil and unloving and hate the truth).

Bible also knew correctly long before this day what will happen to the Jews.

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

Bible God is love, and love is the only one that I want to keep as my God.

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8

We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.
1 John 4:16
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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5/14/2015 7:59:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Atheists like Skyangle haven't a clue why people believe in God because they've never had a spiritual experience and by "spiritual" I do mean contact with the Spirit of God. So atheists speak only their own opinions about something they really know nothing about but being quite egotistical people, (agnostics do not chase theists on religious discussion venues as do atheists proselytizing their atheist religious beliefs) atheists don't ever want to hear about that particular Fatal Flaw of atheism---no familiarity with the subject of spiritual reality. None. Skyangle is one of the weirder atheists in that she thinks Nature is God somehow even though Nature doesn't deliver spiritual instructions through religious visions and has no "supernatural" side of course, the very definition of God consciousness.

I don't worship an imaginary Spirit as I can plainly see this Great Spirit of God Most High and the Messiah guiding my life for the past 36 years of miraculous at times religious visionary experiences, ones affecting hundreds of others so I know its not just personal gnosis, its sharable spiritual consciousness. Atheists don't know this experience of shared spiritual consciousness because they haven't had any spiritual experiences themselves and again by "spiritual" I mean Spirit, not material awareness.

Will Skyangle ever hear this criticism? I doubt it. She's got here ego invested in proselytizing her brand of atheism and won't listen to people who know what they're talking about when it comes to consciousness of God and the Spirit of Christ, two Great Spirits with Others as well coming back to reform the Holy Family, the ELohim, which models Humanity in spiritual consciousness.
DanneJeRusse
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5/14/2015 8:28:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 7:59:45 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Atheists like Skyangle haven't a clue why people believe in God because they've never had a spiritual experience and by "spiritual" I do mean contact with the Spirit of God.

Sorry, but you haven't any contact with any gods, that's just your overactive imagination running wild or you have some mental disorder.

So atheists speak only their own opinions about something they really know nothing about but being quite egotistical people, (agnostics do not chase theists on religious discussion venues as do atheists proselytizing their atheist religious beliefs) atheists don't ever want to hear about that particular Fatal Flaw of atheism---no familiarity with the subject of spiritual reality. None. Skyangle is one of the weirder atheists in that she thinks Nature is God somehow even though Nature doesn't deliver spiritual instructions through religious visions and has no "supernatural" side of course, the very definition of God consciousness.

I don't worship an imaginary Spirit as I can plainly see this Great Spirit of God Most High and the Messiah guiding my life for the past 36 years of miraculous at times religious visionary experiences, ones affecting hundreds of others so I know its not just personal gnosis, its sharable spiritual consciousness. Atheists don't know this experience of shared spiritual consciousness because they haven't had any spiritual experiences themselves and again by "spiritual" I mean Spirit, not material awareness.

Those are called "hallucinations" and you can control them with medications.

Will Skyangle ever hear this criticism? I doubt it. She's got here ego invested in proselytizing her brand of atheism and won't listen to people who know what they're talking about when it comes to consciousness of God and the Spirit of Christ, two Great Spirits with Others as well coming back to reform the Holy Family, the ELohim, which models Humanity in spiritual consciousness.

Seek professional help.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
ButterCatX
Posts: 2,228
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5/14/2015 8:40:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Thor shows us his power with the lightning and the strike of mjolnir to make thunder. Odin shows us his power by accepting our honorable dead to valhalla. Why do you claim my gods are false?
I bet fanfics are already being posted on random blogs about us.-Vaarka

Butters preformed his duty to the town and died with honor, he helped us kill scum, so we know have to go and make sure his death wasn't in vain and win this game for him.-lannan13

All hail the great and mighty Butters, who died for our inactive cause.-Vaarka

fuckith offith, lol.-Ore(talking to me)

And guess what happened to FT? He got raped to death.-Xlav

You are so obviously town I love you man.-VOT
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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5/14/2015 4:13:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/13/2015 4:21:28 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Most mature adults understand that all supernatural gods are mythical.
Supernatural Gods are all personified forces of nature.

Why do any people still worship and idolize any gods in this day and age?

Why do you think people have the need to hold on to their invisible supernatural characters and stories about an after life?

Do you think humans will ever grow up mentally and put away superstitious beliefs?

As to your first two statements, I agree with you 100%.

As to your question of why so many people feel the need to believe that some sort of supernatural sky god is up there watching over them and might reward them with a nice place to live after the die? Well, many anthropologists and psychologist types will tell you that that is an unfortunate by-product of our evolved brains.

As we homo sapiens developed, beginning a couple million years ago with homo erectus , our brains grew. Fast. Big! Especially in the pre-frontal cortex area, which imbued us with keen abilities for planning and thinking and forming strategies.

This was valuable stuff! It enabled us to hunt better; to craft useful survival tools; to plan for cold winters, etc. These big brains gave us a slight but crucial edge over our rivals we came upon in Europe after we left the African Savannah: Neanderthal Man.

Ah...but once we attained self awareness we also became very very curious and even afraid for the tenuous state of our existence. And why we might die? And when? And what after that? Nothing? Yikes!!

So as the brain is so excellent at doing, it developed a mental defense mechanism. In this case it was...........Yep--you got it! Gods!

Voila! No more fear! We had a BFF up there in the Sky.

Also...the human mind is obsessed with seeking patterns. Meanings. Even to mundane things. This is why conspiracy theories are abound. Ya don't want to think, for example, that some lonely bitter wannabe Communist guy who wanted to make a name for himself could take down a beloved President. So you get the conspiracy that the CIA/Mafia/Castro/LBJ did it!

Now..back in the unforgiving Savannahs, this "pattern-seeking" mindset served us very well. "Hey....looks like, after a rain, the antelopes come around this part of the forest to drink! They would be sitting ducks for us?"

But today....hmm...not so much. Oh..the pattern seeking and "Big Picture" seeking still help, but they are not as crucial any more.

But were are still born with that ancestral DNA and all of its repurcussions. So you get those aforementioned "necessary byproducts" like conspiracy theories.

And religion.

And belief in gods. And that itinerent jewish carpenters from 2000 years ago rose from the dead and sit beside those gods and listen to prayers.

Defense mechanisms, baby!

LOL

Peace.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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5/14/2015 5:49:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 2:40:21 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/14/2015 2:19:20 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Would any God worshipers like to explain why they continue to worship their invisible idols?

I'm not a person of religious faith, Sky, but in a pluralistic society, statistics show that 60-70% of people adopt the beliefs of their parents (higher in societies with less diversity.) In particular, the biggest predictors of the faith you adopt are the faith of your father, and the quality of your relationship with him.


Should we blame the fathers for brainwashing their children to believe the same as they do?
They most likely adopted the beliefs of their own parents who in turn adopted the beliefs of theirs etc. etc.
Ultimately the children adopt the same superstitions their parents embrace.
Why? Because they trust those who teach them that "X"is true, to be telling them the truth.
Very few question the things they are taught because they look up to the teachers and are taught to respect the wisdom and knowledge of the elders.

I talk a lot to people of theological beliefs, and in my experience they argue most passionately for certainty, comfort and a sense of purpose. That's not to say that people without faith lack comfort or purpose, but they seem to believe that without faith -- their faith -- they'd lack these things.

Do you think that is part of cultural conditioning and indoctrination? Peer pressure seems to have a strong affect on people.
It seems religion encourages people to be reliant on some outside supernatural entity so they remain in a childish submissive attitude all their lives. It appears to be the way religion binds its own members so they end up being reliant on their own religious indoctrination and become afraid of the consequences of departing from it. Deception is a very strong force, especially when the self deceived do not even realize they are self deceived.

Interestingly, those are traditionally also qualities that a good father brings a child.

People find comfort and purpose in all kinds of things. Supernatural entities and religion are just one of the many "security blankets" which people seem to hold on to in life and refuse to let go due to their psychological and emotional dependance on them.
It becomes an emotional addiction which is not easy to overcome.
Faith in invisible supernatural entities is a lot like a good luck charm in many ways. Superstitious people hope their entities or good luck charms will keep them safe from harm. They do not realize those very "entities" are harming their own development into the kind of maturity where you let go of childish faith in invisible friends and learn that real people are far more reliable even if they do sometimes let each other down.

Do you think humans will ever grow up mentally and put away superstitious beliefs?
Individually -- yes. definitely. Socially? I suspect it will depend on how we raise and educate children. The better the secular education, their training in critical thinking, being raised to dignity, autonomy and self-examination, the less kids will submit to and hang on the confected authorities of religiosity.


I suspect religion will always be a part of human development the same as any myths and fairy tales are part of human development. Fantasy is a part of reality due to the creative powers of human imagination and the human tendency to be entertained by our own imaginations and creations. The sad thing is that very few grow out of a belief in their personal "god" even if they do come to understand all gods are mythical personifications of natural forces.
The habit of idolizing that "force within them" as a supernatural entity becomes like any other addiction they cannot easily overcome.
Old habits die hard.

When it comes to self examination, religious culture teaches people to examine things in the "light" of their "gods rules" and secular culture examines things in the "light" of man made rules.
It seems humans always have some kind of "rule" or "standard" which they use as a guide to measure other things against. Yet all human rules and standards are ultimately human creations and subject to human perception and experience anyway.
Human education is all subject to human perception and understanding no matter what field one wishes to study.
There are very obviously fields of study where we can learn very practical useful things and there are fields of study where we learn about abstract, theoretical things.
There is a very fine indistinct line between some of them much like the twilight zone between light and darkness where you cannot tell where one ends and the other begins because it is the area where they become connected as one.
SamStevens
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5/14/2015 6:10:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 7:59:45 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Atheists like Skyangle haven't a clue why people believe in God because they've never had a spiritual experience and by "spiritual" I do mean contact with the Spirit of God.

Do you even have evidence that spiritual encounters occur? How do you know that a spiritual encounter is not a hallucination?
So atheists speak only their own opinions about something they really know nothing about but being quite egotistical people, (agnostics do not chase theists on religious discussion venues as do atheists proselytizing their atheist religious beliefs) atheists

Do you like generalizations?
don't ever want to hear about that particular Fatal Flaw of atheism---no familiarity with the subject of spiritual reality. None. Skyangle is one of the weirder atheists in that she thinks Nature is God somehow even though Nature doesn't deliver spiritual instructions through religious visions and has no "supernatural" side of course, the very definition of God consciousness.

I don't worship an imaginary Spirit as I can plainly see this Great Spirit of God Most High and the Messiah guiding my life for the past 36 years of miraculous at times religious visionary experiences, ones affecting hundreds of others so I know its not just personal gnosis, its sharable spiritual consciousness. Atheists don't know this experience of shared spiritual consciousness because they haven't had any spiritual experiences themselves and again by "spiritual" I mean Spirit, not material awareness.

Will Skyangle ever hear this criticism? I doubt it. She's got here ego invested in proselytizing her brand of atheism and won't listen to people who know what they're talking about when it comes to consciousness of God and the Spirit of Christ, two Great Spirits with Others as well coming back to reform the Holy Family, the ELohim, which models Humanity in spiritual consciousness.
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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5/14/2015 6:32:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 5:27:52 AM, 12_13 wrote:

I don"t need afterlife. And I don"t believe in the Bible God because of that. I believe Bible God, because his message is truth, in my opinion. Bible is correct about what people are (often evil and unloving and hate the truth).

Do you believe in an after life in spite of claiming to not need one?
Are you saying you believe in a mythical character because of the message?
Do you think humans would still be evil and unloving and hate truth if they never created any mythical characters to personify those human attitudes in the first place?

Bible also knew correctly long before this day what will happen to the Jews.

The bible knows nothing. Humans wrote the bible. The writers obviously had very creative insights into the human psyche, human emotions, human conscience, cause and effect, etc. Ultimately human writers create their own gods by personifying their own thoughts and emotions as the thoughts and emotions of gods. It is not hard to compare hearing from a "god" to hearing from ones own mind, intuition, or conscience.
Everyone has experienced that "inner voice" of their own mind and conscience or some random intuition pop into ones head which seemingly comes from nowhere and seems to be related to nothing but a "intuitive feeling" or "vibe" you get from your own surroundings and circumstances.

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4


Authors can make anything happen in their stories and easily predict what is to come and make their own predictions come true in the stories because after all they are the creators of their own stories. You too could predict what your own story characters would do and make them do exactly what you predicted they would. Any good writer can do that.

Bible God is love, and love is the only one that I want to keep as my God.

You do not need to worship a mythical character in order to live in Love. Many Atheists live in love and do good to their fellow man. Many of them are more loving than some believers in God.
Would you speak to or pray to Love like you pray to an invisible mythical character? Would you say "I worship you Love" or "I bow down before you Love"..or. "Dear Love, please take care of my friends" etc....
Does that not seem very foolish when you personify a human attitude like that and start taking to it as if it could actually hear you?
Love is not a supernatural character who can hear you. Love is an attitude humans adopt or reject. They choose to love and accept "X" or to hate and reject "X".
"X"can be whatever fantasy or reality you decide it is.

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8

We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.
1 John 4:16

Many Atheists live in an attitude of love, kindness, compassion, etc, yet many believers still condemn them as unbelievers who are "going to hell" because the Atheists do not believe in the mythical character which personifies Love as being a real supernatural person even though they all believe Love is a very real human attitude and emotion.

Love is personified through humans. Therefore humans are Love personified in reality. No invisible supernatural entity is needed to personify Love when we personify that attitude in very visible form ourselves. Humans are God in the sense that humans personify Love in reality and God is nothing more than a personification of Love.
Love is a natural human characteristic and attribute. There is nothing supernatural or invisible about it unless humans create some mystery or magic about it or make it invisible because they want to hide it or deny it and pretend they have none and have never experienced it.
Therealslimricky
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5/14/2015 7:07:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 7:59:45 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
": Atheists like Skyangle haven't a clue why people believe in God because they've never had a spiritual experience and by "spiritual" I do mean contact with the Spirit of God. So atheists speak only their own opinions about something they really know nothing about but being quite egotistical people, (agnostics do not chase theists on religious discussion venues as do atheists proselytizing their atheist religious beliefs) atheists don't ever want to hear about that particular Fatal Flaw of atheism---no familiarity with the subject of spiritual reality. None. Skyangle is one of the weirder atheists in that she thinks Nature is God somehow even though Nature doesn't deliver spiritual instructions through religious visions and has no "supernatural" side of course, the very definition of God consciousness.

I don't worship an imaginary Spirit as I can plainly see this Great Spirit of God Most High and the Messiah guiding my life for the past 36 years of miraculous at times religious visionary experiences, ones affecting hundreds of others so I know its not just personal gnosis, its sharable spiritual consciousness. Atheists don't know this experience of shared spiritual consciousness because they haven't had any spiritual experiences themselves and again by "spiritual" I mean Spirit, not material awareness.

Will Skyangle ever hear this criticism? I doubt it. She's got here ego invested in proselytizing her brand of atheism and won't listen to people who know what they're talking about when it comes to consciousness of God and the Spirit of Christ, two Great Spirits with Others as well coming back to reform the Holy Family, the ELohim, which models Humanity in spiritual consciousness."

Lol I really don't know where to begin with this. First off, there are plenty of athiests that have defected from religion and a lot of those athiests including myself were very pious. I've felt the "holy ghost", and for a while, I really believed that there was a god out there that really loved me and was seeking me, but the problem with this argument is that a Muslim, Hindu, Jew, whatever will tell you the exact same argument, that their God makes them feel special and that they have the true god, so why is that you have faith in Yahweh? Why not Allah or unicorns if all you need is faith and "spirituality"? And to be fair, it is you that's egotistical for believing that your religion is the one out of thousands of man made religions that got it right and that everyone who disagree simply doesn't understand the "spirituality" of your god, but you do. Trust me when I say, you don't need a god and the day you can join us on the dark side of the force (we may not have any souls, but we do have cake which is honestly a lot better) will be the day you really start living like the decaying sack of meat you are.
Skyangel
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5/14/2015 7:39:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 7:59:45 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Atheists like Skyangle haven't a clue why people believe in God because they've never had a spiritual experience and by "spiritual" I do mean contact with the Spirit of God. So atheists speak only their own opinions about something they really know nothing about but being quite egotistical people, (agnostics do not chase theists on religious discussion venues as do atheists proselytizing their atheist religious beliefs) atheists don't ever want to hear about that particular Fatal Flaw of atheism---no familiarity with the subject of spiritual reality. None. Skyangle is one of the weirder atheists in that she thinks Nature is God somehow even though Nature doesn't deliver spiritual instructions through religious visions and has no "supernatural" side of course, the very definition of God consciousness.

Old egotistical men like you seem to presume a lot and seem to think you know a lot about things you know nothing about in reality.
I actually do know why people believe in God. At least I have my own ideas about why they do.
I actually have had plenty of what you call spiritual experiences and I once did believe in the invisible supernatural father figure in the invisible place called heaven. However I grew out of that stage in my life in the same way I grew out of a belief in the magical Santa at the North Pole. I matured in mind and body.
It seems many people like you mature in body but not in mind.
I have experienced plenty of LOVE and good things in life as well as plenty of hate and bad things. Life is made up of many opposite things.
I have my opinions about life the same as you have your opinions. Both our opinions and beliefs are a result of what we have personally learned and experienced.
I have told you before that I do not call myself an atheist but you are free to place me in that box if it makes you happy.
I do not think Nature is God in the sense of nature being some invisible supernatural character.
I understand God to be a personification of the forces of the universe in the same way that Mother Nature is a personification of Nature itself. The character is mythical but the forces are obviously very real.
Therefore if you are calling the forces God, I believe in the forces. I believe in their very obvious existence. I just do not believe they are invisible characters who have a mind and emotions of their own.
The mythical characters are nothing but human personifications of forces which obviously exist.

Any so called "spiritual instructions" are man made by the human inventors and writers of those instructions, rules, etc. Mankind manipulates mankind through the rules invented by mankind. Any so called "supernatural visions" or "dreams" are created by the human mind and can be caused by eating too much pizza or magic mushrooms or breathing too many poisonous fumes. All people who have any awareness of their own conscience can claim to have a "God consciousness" due to our own conscience telling us what is right and wrong. We all have a choice to violate our own conscience or obey it. That human conscience is the "voice of God" within us all regardless of whether we believe in any mythical invisible supernatural entities or not. The conscience is also subject to human programming and cultural conditioning. Whether we believe something is morally right or wrong depends on the culture we grew up in and how they conditioned us to think.

I don't worship an imaginary Spirit as I can plainly see this Great Spirit of God Most High and the Messiah guiding my life for the past 36 years of miraculous at times religious visionary experiences, ones affecting hundreds of others so I know its not just personal gnosis, its sharable spiritual consciousness. Atheists don't know this experience of shared spiritual consciousness because they haven't had any spiritual experiences themselves and again by "spiritual" I mean Spirit, not material awareness.

If you are referring to the 'vibes" or "energy" of life as the "Spirit" of life, I can see and understand that as well as anyone else can. It is so obvious, it is blinding.
If you are referring to some supernatural disembodied ghost as a "Spirit" then you are dreaming.
Life is what you make it and if the only way you can achieve any feeling of self worth or self importance is by convincing yourself that some mystical supernatural being has chosen you to be some kind of spiritual guru or leader, then do what you must to feel good about yourself, but your self delusions are trapping you in your own fantasies.
Your own mind is leading you astray with all your abstract imaginations.

Will Skyangle ever hear this criticism? I doubt it. She's got here ego invested in proselytizing her brand of atheism and won't listen to people who know what they're talking about when it comes to consciousness of God and the Spirit of Christ, two Great Spirits with Others as well coming back to reform the Holy Family, the ELohim, which models Humanity in spiritual consciousness.

Will you ever stop "speaking" about me and start "speaking" directly to me like a person who actually has a real conversation with another person face to face?
You are the one proselytizing your brand of religion on these forums. I am not trying to convert anyone to any religion or brand of Atheism. I am merely trying to wake people up to reality and help them face the fact that all gods are mythical and not one of the invisible supernatural entities exists in reality.
Gods are nothing but personifications of the forces which do exist in reality.

Saying Mother Nature exists is the same as saying Nature exists.... and ....saying God exists is the same as saying the forces of the universe exist.
Do I believe in Mother Nature as an invisible supernatural character? No I don't believe in Mother Nature in that sense.
Do I believe she is a personification and representation of the forces of Nature? Yes, I do believe in her in that sense since the forces of Nature obviously exist and are perfectly visible to all.
The same applies to God.
Do I believe in God as an invisible supernatural character? NO. I do not believe in God in that sense.
Do I believe in God as a personification of the forces of the universe? Yes, I do believe in God in that sense. That is why I believe God is visible. The forces of the universe are visible to anyone who has eyes to see and has any ability to use logic and reasoning to understand the term "God" as applied to those forces. Even the invisible forces can be felt or observed in action since we can see the way they affect other things.

It makes no difference what you label an invisible force/ energy. The force/ energy exists whether humans can explain what it is and where it originates or not.
Energy which cannot be created or destroyed, logically must have always existed and be eternal and infinite.
Call that energy "God" if that is what "rocks your world" but at least have the maturity to understand the energy is not an invisible supernatural being who has human emotions and decides to cause earthquakes and floods or famines etc to punish humans or any other life forms for not worshiping or obeying it.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/14/2015 7:39:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 5:49:13 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 5/14/2015 2:40:21 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/14/2015 2:19:20 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Would any God worshipers like to explain why they continue to worship their invisible idols?
I'm not a person of religious faith, Sky, but in a pluralistic society, statistics show that 60-70% of people adopt the beliefs of their parents (higher in societies with less diversity.) In particular, the biggest predictors of the faith you adopt are the faith of your father, and the quality of your relationship with him.
Should we blame the fathers for brainwashing their children to believe the same as they do?
I think anything we say or do under the auspices of authority are accountable to for the people our authority influences. We have a duty of care to ensure our opinions are informed, balanced, transparent and accountable.

That includes politicians, clergy, technical experts, communicators and parents of course. If under the auspices of authority (our own or referred), we teach ignorance, fear or hate, then we're responsible for that.

This is why critical thinking is so vital. It teaches us how to examine and be accountable for our beliefs.

I talk a lot to people of theological beliefs, and in my experience they argue most passionately for certainty, comfort and a sense of purpose. That's not to say that people without faith lack comfort or purpose, but they seem to believe that without faith -- their faith -- they'd lack these things.
Do you think that is part of cultural conditioning and indoctrination?
Unquestionably, Sky. Both individuals and institutions systematise religious indoctrination, and consider it a virtue. In fact most religions argue (entirely incompatibly, and with no evidence at all) that there is no virtue outside the doctrine they teach. Yet such belief is self-flattery. It validates beliefs, lifestyle and the teacher's virtue without ever challenging either the assumptions or the values.

It seems religion encourages people to be reliant on some outside supernatural entity so they remain in a childish submissive attitude all their lives.
Worse than that, Sky. Most religion entails submission to professional and lay classes who are seldom especially well-educated, transparent, publicly accountable and qualified to be in positions of responsibility. Moreover these classes have the same unacknowledged conflicts of interest found in motivational speakers: you want to help people to attract credence, participation and deference -- yet if you help them too much, they might feel they don't need you. So you may seek to create conflicts, anxieties and disempowerment -- and we can see evidence of this in many religious doctrines. In unethical consulting circles, this is called 'drive the wedge and build the business'.

Plus there are also the attendant issues associated with adherence to esoteric and mystical mythologies: superstition creates its own anxieties and disempowerment.

Interestingly, those are traditionally also qualities that a good father brings a child.
People find comfort and purpose in all kinds of things. Supernatural entities and religion are just one of the many "security blankets" which people seem to hold on to in life and refuse to let go due to their psychological and emotional dependance on them.
Minds resort to tricks to reduce anxiety in times of high stress. This is true in people don't believe in superstition too.

The issue psychologically is when the tricks themselves are creating the stress -- or when one becomes dependent on tricks even when one isn't stressed -- especially if others are profiting from that dependence.

Do you think humans will ever grow up mentally and put away superstitious beliefs?
Individually -- yes. definitely. Socially? I suspect it will depend on how we raise and educate children. The better the secular education, their training in critical thinking, being raised to dignity, autonomy and self-examination, the less kids will submit to and hang on the confected authorities of religiosity.
I suspect religion will always be a part of human development the same as any myths and fairy tales are part of human development.
I suspect so too, Sky. If there were no religion tomorrow, I think some people would quickly reinvent it. For this reason, although I'm antitheistic, I'm more focused on encouraging people to reduce religiosity rather than eliminate religion.

Yet all human rules and standards are ultimately human creations and subject to human perception and experience anyway.
It's true that we synthesise our ideas and understanding from experience and imagination, but that synthesis doesn't have to be whimsical or arbitrary (outside art of course, where it can happily profit from both. :D) We can make our thought accountable to fact, to proven method, and observable impacts on one another, and this helps make it sharable, transparent, robust and improvable.

The benefits of doing that are so high, and the costs of not doing it so profound that failure to do so when we are in positions of authority seems to me an act of gross negligence: the sort of thing that should keep people out of authority positions in cases of high risk.

In particular, I've never seen anyone whip up religiosity in others who himself also demonstrates the kind of responsible leadership and authority I'm talking about.

The louder the mouth, the greater the bigotry and the stronger the appeals to religiosity, the stronger the case that such people should be critiqued, debunked and discredited.
Skyangel
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5/14/2015 7:50:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 8:40:11 AM, ButterCatX wrote:
Thor shows us his power with the lightning and the strike of mjolnir to make thunder. Odin shows us his power by accepting our honorable dead to valhalla. Why do you claim my gods are false?

Your gods are personifications of natural forces.
The natural forces are obviously not false in spite of the personifications of them being fictional characters.

There is a difference between something being false ( incorrect, not real) and something being a fiction ( a personification of a real force.)

Personifying a force (.... add any name and characterization you want to invent ..) does not change the fact that the force itself does exist in reality even if the characterization of that force is mythical.

Father Time shows his power by causing night and day to pass before our eyes. Does Time ( Father Time) exist in reality or is it all just an illusion created by Energy (God) ?
ButterCatX
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5/14/2015 7:56:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 7:50:11 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 5/14/2015 8:40:11 AM, ButterCatX wrote:
Thor shows us his power with the lightning and the strike of mjolnir to make thunder. Odin shows us his power by accepting our honorable dead to valhalla. Why do you claim my gods are false?


Your gods are personifications of natural forces.
The natural forces are obviously not false in spite of the personifications of them being fictional characters.

There is a difference between something being false ( incorrect, not real) and something being a fiction ( a personification of a real force.)

Personifying a force (.... add any name and characterization you want to invent ..) does not change the fact that the force itself does exist in reality even if the characterization of that force is mythical.

Father Time shows his power by causing night and day to pass before our eyes. Does Time ( Father Time) exist in reality or is it all just an illusion created by Energy (God) ?

Time is an illusion created by humans therefore it is illogical to bring it up. Furthermore Father Time is hardly a Norse god so it has nothing to do with my statement. You also brought up God(presumably christian) which again is illogical due to me using Norse gods. Finally, I was to say that these Gods do show themselves through the causation of failure(bad sacrifice) or success(good sacrifice).
I bet fanfics are already being posted on random blogs about us.-Vaarka

Butters preformed his duty to the town and died with honor, he helped us kill scum, so we know have to go and make sure his death wasn't in vain and win this game for him.-lannan13

All hail the great and mighty Butters, who died for our inactive cause.-Vaarka

fuckith offith, lol.-Ore(talking to me)

And guess what happened to FT? He got raped to death.-Xlav

You are so obviously town I love you man.-VOT
Skyangel
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5/14/2015 8:19:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 4:13:56 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:

As to your first two statements, I agree with you 100%.

As to your question of why so many people feel the need to believe that some sort of supernatural sky god is up there watching over them and might reward them with a nice place to live after the die? Well, many anthropologists and psychologist types will tell you that that is an unfortunate by-product of our evolved brains.

As we homo sapiens developed, beginning a couple million years ago with homo erectus , our brains grew. Fast. Big! Especially in the pre-frontal cortex area, which imbued us with keen abilities for planning and thinking and forming strategies.

This was valuable stuff! It enabled us to hunt better; to craft useful survival tools; to plan for cold winters, etc. These big brains gave us a slight but crucial edge over our rivals we came upon in Europe after we left the African Savannah: Neanderthal Man.

Ah...but once we attained self awareness we also became very very curious and even afraid for the tenuous state of our existence. And why we might die? And when? And what after that? Nothing? Yikes!!

So as the brain is so excellent at doing, it developed a mental defense mechanism. In this case it was...........Yep--you got it! Gods!

Voila! No more fear! We had a BFF up there in the Sky.

Also...the human mind is obsessed with seeking patterns. Meanings. Even to mundane things. This is why conspiracy theories are abound. Ya don't want to think, for example, that some lonely bitter wannabe Communist guy who wanted to make a name for himself could take down a beloved President. So you get the conspiracy that the CIA/Mafia/Castro/LBJ did it!

Now..back in the unforgiving Savannahs, this "pattern-seeking" mindset served us very well. "Hey....looks like, after a rain, the antelopes come around this part of the forest to drink! They would be sitting ducks for us?"

But today....hmm...not so much. Oh..the pattern seeking and "Big Picture" seeking still help, but they are not as crucial any more.

But were are still born with that ancestral DNA and all of its repurcussions. So you get those aforementioned "necessary byproducts" like conspiracy theories.

And religion.

And belief in gods. And that itinerent jewish carpenters from 2000 years ago rose from the dead and sit beside those gods and listen to prayers.

Defense mechanisms, baby!

LOL

Peace.

Some believe we are a product of evolution but are we?
Some believe we are a product of creation of a God but are we?
What if our beliefs about ourselves are just a product of human indoctrination, brainwashing, cultural conditioning, peer pressure, etc.
Our human ancestors pass down their own superstitions, observations, beliefs, to their children who pass the same superstitions, beliefs, observations, to their children etc etc.
In the end all human thinking processes which result in human knowledge and belief are subject to the human mind and human perception itself.

What if we did not evolve over billions of years from some primordial pond scum at all?
What if Energy which cannot be created or destroyed has always existed and we are simply part of that Energy which keeps recycling itself without beginning or end?
What if nothing had a finite beginning in the big picture but what if all things have always existed in the form of energy within energy and any beginning and end is just an illusion much like the beginning and end of any day is just an illusion created by light and movement and human perception and measurement of what we observe?
Why believe what our elders teach us when they could be wrong and be leading themselves astray with their own delusions, cultural conditioning , peer pressure, indoctrinations, theories, etc.?

It seems better to remain a skeptic of all things than to be led astray by popular opinion and beliefs just because they sound convincing. Some humans are obviously more easily convinced by beliefs, theories, doctrines, speculations, etc than others.
Skyangel
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5/14/2015 8:29:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 6:10:55 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 5/14/2015 7:59:45 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Atheists like Skyangle haven't a clue why people believe in God because they've never had a spiritual experience and by "spiritual" I do mean contact with the Spirit of God.

Do you even have evidence that spiritual encounters occur? How do you know that a spiritual encounter is not a hallucination?
So atheists speak only their own opinions about something they really know nothing about but being quite egotistical people, (agnostics do not chase theists on religious discussion venues as do atheists proselytizing their atheist religious beliefs) atheists

Hi Sam,
I think some people tend to label human emotions, intuitive insight, imaginations, coincidences, and any human experience their own mind cannot explain as 'spiritual encounters' or "spiritual experiences".
It all depends on personal perception and interpretation of these things.
What one man puts down to coincidence or fate or good or bad luck or emotional highs and lows, another might claim to be a "spiritual experience" or a result of the "leading of God" in their lives.
SamStevens
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5/14/2015 8:30:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 8:29:34 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 5/14/2015 6:10:55 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 5/14/2015 7:59:45 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Atheists like Skyangle haven't a clue why people believe in God because they've never had a spiritual experience and by "spiritual" I do mean contact with the Spirit of God.

Do you even have evidence that spiritual encounters occur? How do you know that a spiritual encounter is not a hallucination?
So atheists speak only their own opinions about something they really know nothing about but being quite egotistical people, (agnostics do not chase theists on religious discussion venues as do atheists proselytizing their atheist religious beliefs) atheists

Hi Sam,
I think some people tend to label human emotions, intuitive insight, imaginations, coincidences, and any human experience their own mind cannot explain as 'spiritual encounters' or "spiritual experiences".

I concur.

It all depends on personal perception and interpretation of these things.
What one man puts down to coincidence or fate or good or bad luck or emotional highs and lows, another might claim to be a "spiritual experience" or a result of the "leading of God" in their lives.
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
Saint_of_Me
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5/15/2015 12:00:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Theory of Evolution is far more than just a trendy idea, my friend.

It is believed by probably 98% of ALL the world's professional and college-educated Biologists.

You should also know that the very term "theory" is used in a far different manner in scientific circles than it is in every day parlance. IN science a theory has been proven time and again by experiments and discoveries. (Of which, BTW, there has never been ONE instance which flew in the face of the Evo Theory.)

The list of transitional fossils is enormous. Google it.

So you can play that whole mystical holy man hooey about "how do we know what is real?" but do not make the mistake of equating Evolution with a mere idea. If you have any questions on it feel free to ask, as I am fairly well-trained in the science.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
12_13
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5/15/2015 2:13:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 6:32:45 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Do you believe in an after life in spite of claiming to not need one?

I believe what the Bible tells. And Bible tells:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

Probably it is not correct to call it afterlife, when it seems to be rather one life that never ends, but the form may change.

Are you saying you believe in a mythical character because of the message?

Yes one reason is the message. I don"t believe people would have written Bible, if God would not be real.

Do you think humans would still be evil and unloving and hate truth if they never created any mythical characters to personify those human attitudes in the first place?

My answer is yes all though I probably don"t understand your question well. :)

The bible knows nothing. Humans wrote the bible. The writers obviously had very creative insights into the human psyche, human emotions, human conscience, cause and effect, etc. Ultimately human writers create their own gods by personifying their own thoughts and emotions as the thoughts and emotions of gods.

And what makes you believe all that? I have no good reason to believe the story you have created.

Authors can make anything happen in their stories and easily predict what is to come and make their own predictions come true in the stories because after all they are the creators of their own stories.

I don"t think people can generally write something now correctly that will happen after about 2000 years.

You do not need to worship a mythical character in order to live in Love.

Everyone who really loves also "worships" love.

Many Atheists live in love and do good to their fellow man. Many of them are more loving than some believers in God.

Unfortunately I don"t see that to be true.

Does that not seem very foolish when you personify a human attitude like that and start taking to it as if it could actually hear you?

I speak about love as defined in the Bible. By that definition it is more than human feeling.

Love is an attitude humans adopt or reject.

That can be partially true. However I don"t think people know true love, without knowing God.

Love is a natural human characteristic and attribute.

What do you mean with love?
Gentorev
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5/15/2015 6:12:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/13/2015 4:21:28 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Most mature adults understand that all supernatural gods are mythical.
Supernatural Gods are all personified forces of nature.

Why do any people still worship and idolize any gods in this day and age?

Why do you think people have the need to hold on to their invisible supernatural characters and stories about an after life?

Do you think humans will ever grow up mentally and put away superstitious beliefs?

There is a MOST HIGH intellect to have evolved within the eternal evolving universe that continually oscillates between invisible energy and visible matter, who can traverse not only space but also Time and He descended to the very beginning before Space and Time came into existence, and He knows everything that you have ever done or will ever do, because that was all done in his Past.

God is the Supreme Personality to evolve within the eternal evolving universe, The MOST HIGH in the creation, and the Godhead of all that has evolved. He is "THE SON OF MAN," who, in your erroneous concept of one directional time, is still only, currently, developing within the body of Mankind, which is his physical and corruptible temporary tent=tabernacle in this point in your time, as he awaits the creation of his new glorious incorruptible energised body of brilliant and blinding light.
Skyangel
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5/16/2015 4:43:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 7:39:45 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/14/2015 5:49:13 PM, Skyangel wrote:

Should we blame the fathers for brainwashing their children to believe the same as they do?
I think anything we say or do under the auspices of authority are accountable to for the people our authority influences. We have a duty of care to ensure our opinions are informed, balanced, transparent and accountable.

That includes politicians, clergy, technical experts, communicators and parents of course. If under the auspices of authority (our own or referred), we teach ignorance, fear or hate, then we're responsible for that.

I agree we are all responsible for what we pass on to others.
However, don't you think most mature adults feel they are performing that duty of care to the best of their abilities?
People who believe the information they are "fed" and pass that same information on to future generations as "truth" are doing it all in good faith that what they believe to be true actually is true, regardless of whether it is or not.

This is why critical thinking is so vital. It teaches us how to examine and be accountable for our beliefs.

Critical thinking seems to be something most people do regarding other peoples beliefs and not so much their own. It seems personal subjectivity holds most people back from the ability to critique their own thoughts and beliefs. Personal involvement in ones own "little world" stops people from being able to "step outside" that "personal inner world"
How many people do you know who actually question their own beliefs?
Do you question yours or do you take them all for granted and believe you are correct like most others do?

I talk a lot to people of theological beliefs, and in my experience they argue most passionately for certainty, comfort and a sense of purpose. That's not to say that people without faith lack comfort or purpose, but they seem to believe that without faith -- their faith -- they'd lack these things.
Do you think that is part of cultural conditioning and indoctrination?
Unquestionably, Sky. Both individuals and institutions systematise religious indoctrination, and consider it a virtue. In fact most religions argue (entirely incompatibly, and with no evidence at all) that there is no virtue outside the doctrine they teach. Yet such belief is self-flattery. It validates beliefs, lifestyle and the teacher's virtue without ever challenging either the assumptions or the values.

Whether there is virtue outside any teaching or not is a very subjective judgement. It depends on what people accept as virtuous in the first place. Who decides what is virtuous and not? Who decides what is right and wrong? What do people use as "a rule" or guide by which to judge virtuosity?

It seems religion encourages people to be reliant on some outside supernatural entity so they remain in a childish submissive attitude all their lives.
Worse than that, Sky. Most religion entails submission to professional and lay classes who are seldom especially well-educated, transparent, publicly accountable and qualified to be in positions of responsibility. Moreover these classes have the same unacknowledged conflicts of interest found in motivational speakers: you want to help people to attract credence, participation and deference -- yet if you help them too much, they might feel they don't need you. So you may seek to create conflicts, anxieties and disempowerment -- and we can see evidence of this in many religious doctrines. In unethical consulting circles, this is called 'drive the wedge and build the business'.

Religious institutions seem to believe they educate their ministers perfectly well. Many people attend bible colleges and gain theological doctorates and degrees which apparently are proof of "higher education". The people who have these degrees etc. are well respected in the community as well educated people.
Do you think they are less educated than any other profession?

It makes one question how "higher education" works when all people need to prove they have "a brain" is a piece of paper from the institutions which have educated them even if what those institutions teach are merely abstract concepts which are subject to human interpretation and could "change with the weather" as it were.
Being able to quote "famous" people does not prove anyone has a brain. Any parrot can be taught to quote others.

As for creating conflicts, etc, No one can create those things in the minds of others. All people create any inner conflicts in themselves as a result of their own reactions to what they experience in their environment.

Plus there are also the attendant issues associated with adherence to esoteric and mystical mythologies: superstition creates its own anxieties and disempowerment.

That all depends on how you look at it. There is definitely an aspect of disempowerment and anxieties created by superstition but the opposite is also true. In some ways superstition seems to empower people who credit or blame invisible entities for their "power" or "acts" rather than take responsibility for their own actions. In a sense it gives them power to be irresponsible rather than power to be responsible for their own actions because their invisible entity will fix their mistakes or forgive their errors.
Relying on invisible entities also seems to take away the "anxieties" of the people who seem afraid of what will happen to them after they die. They seem to gain a certain amount of false assurance that as long as they obey their invisible entity, they will end up living happily ever after in some paradise where everyone loves each other and no one condemns or rejects them for anything at all.
Skyangel
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5/16/2015 5:52:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 7:39:45 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/14/2015 5:49:13 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 5/14/2015 2:40:21 AM, RuvDraba wrote:

Interestingly, those are traditionally also qualities that a good father brings a child.
People find comfort and purpose in all kinds of things. Supernatural entities and religion are just one of the many "security blankets" which people seem to hold on to in life and refuse to let go due to their psychological and emotional dependance on them.
Minds resort to tricks to reduce anxiety in times of high stress. This is true in people don't believe in superstition too.

The human mind plays all kinds of tricks on us and makes us all believe our own minds and thoughts rather than question ourselves.

The issue psychologically is when the tricks themselves are creating the stress -- or when one becomes dependent on tricks even when one isn't stressed -- especially if others are profiting from that dependence.

It seems we should all learn to understand our own minds a lot better and question ourselves a lot more than we do.
The illusions of the humans mind can obviously lead many people astray into the place of self deception and the people are not even aware of their own self deception. If they were, they would not be as deceived as they are.
People tend to get very upset and angry with other people when they discover they have been conned or deceived or taken for a ride but many people deceive themselves all the time and are oblivious to the whole scenario to the extent of even denying they are doing it. The reason is because it is a subconscious act rather than a conscious one.

Do you think humans will ever grow up mentally and put away superstitious beliefs?
Individually -- yes. definitely. Socially? I suspect it will depend on how we raise and educate children. The better the secular education, their training in critical thinking, being raised to dignity, autonomy and self-examination, the less kids will submit to and hang on the confected authorities of religiosity.

What about the confected authorities in other areas of life? Critical thinking itself is subjective and can be very biased when people believe they are being objective just because many agree that their collective subjective opinions about something are correct.
If a collection of self deceived people in any area of life, not just religion, agree that they are not deceived, and agree that their collective subjective opinions make the overall judgment or conclusion objective, are they still deceived?

I suspect religion will always be a part of human development the same as any myths and fairy tales are part of human development.
I suspect so too, Sky. If there were no religion tomorrow, I think some people would quickly reinvent it. For this reason, although I'm antitheistic, I'm more focused on encouraging people to reduce religiosity rather than eliminate religion.

I think it is a lost cause to encourage people to eliminate or reduce religion. I don't think that will ever happen. It is much like trying to reduce the human inclination toward creativity. It will never happen due to humans being creative creatures by nature and instinct. The creative instinct is what causes people to invent very practical things as well as impractical things just for entertainment and amusement. People like to keep themselves amused with all kinds of ridiculous useless things just like we are doing here on the net. What do we accomplish by debating about the existence of invisible characters for example?
Does anyone learn anything from it? Does anyone change their minds from believing in invisible friends to not believing in them or vice versa?
Encouraging people to use their minds in a mature manner and to grow up is one thing but whether they do or not is a matter of their own personal growth. Some have the ability to mature mentally and emotionally and others simply do not due to some physical or psychological retardation which can be caused by all kinds of things.
In the end the best we can do is accept each other as we are and learn to understand how and why people think the way they do and what causes opposite views and opinions.
All of us have an aspect of immaturity in us as well as an aspect of maturity. The degrees of each vary in each individual. It is much like the story of the two "inner lions" The one that is the strongest is the one which gets "fed" the most.
Feed the mind with fiction and fantasy and the person ends up "lost in fantasy" land believing that what he imagines is real is an actual reality.
Feed the mind with truth and facts and the person ends up "lost in reality" believing what he sees is real.
Feed the mind with both and both survive yet the mind is stuck with the process of constantly sorting out fact from fiction.
Obviously both fact and fiction exist in the human mind. Imagination is very real and can cause many self deceptions and delusions.

Yet all human rules and standards are ultimately human creations and subject to human perception and experience anyway.
It's true that we synthesise our ideas and understanding from experience and imagination, but that synthesis doesn't have to be whimsical or arbitrary (outside art of course, where it can happily profit from both. :D) We can make our thought accountable to fact, to proven method, and observable impacts on one another, and this helps make it sharable, transparent, robust and improvable.

Any human methods at all are subject to human interpretation as well as human error.
Besides that, any methods have their limitations. A method that may work for one thing might not work for another thing.
"Methods" in my mind are much like recipes. What method or recipe you use depends on what you wish to "cook up" and what you want the end result to be. If you want "X" result you need to use the method which results in "X". If you want "Z" result you need to use a different method which results in "Z".
When people start using certain programmed "methods" to think or reason, their reasoning and thinking ends up being stuck in that "method" because it becomes a subconscious habit which is difficult to break, especially when you are not consciously aware of your own subconcious method of thinking.
In the end the "method" anyone uses to do their own thinking results in a self belief of ones own thoughts regardless of whether others critique the method as being logical or illogical.

The benefits of doing that are so high, and the costs of not doing it so profound that failure to do so when we are in positions of authority seems to me an act of gross negligence: the sort of thing that should keep people out of authority positions in cases of high risk.

What do you consider high or low risk?
Many people in positions of authority are self deceived.They are unaware of their own self deception and so are those who put them in the positions and those who are taught by them. What is the risk of self deception? One risks being the fool that fools themselves and also fools others.
Does it cause any physical harm to anyone? Not unless you kid yourself that some invisible character is forcing you to physically kill other people.
Does it cause mental or psychological harm to anyone? That depends on whether you consider the act of deceiving yourself harmful to your own mental health and that of others or not.
If you don't know or even suspect you are sick, are you sick in your own opinion or belief?
Ramshutu
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5/16/2015 6:01:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 7:59:45 AM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Atheists like Skyangle haven't a clue why people believe in God because they've never had a spiritual experience and by "spiritual" I do mean contact with the Spirit of God. So atheists speak only their own opinions about something they really know nothing about but being quite egotistical people, (agnostics do not chase theists on religious discussion venues as do atheists proselytizing their atheist religious beliefs) atheists don't ever want to hear about that particular Fatal Flaw of atheism---no familiarity with the subject of spiritual reality.

What evidence do you have that it's reality, rather than your brain convincing yourself that what you see and feel is definitively real?
Skyangel
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5/16/2015 6:21:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 7:56:39 PM, ButterCatX wrote:
At 5/14/2015 7:50:11 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 5/14/2015 8:40:11 AM, ButterCatX wrote:
Thor shows us his power with the lightning and the strike of mjolnir to make thunder. Odin shows us his power by accepting our honorable dead to valhalla. Why do you claim my gods are false?


Your gods are personifications of natural forces.
The natural forces are obviously not false in spite of the personifications of them being fictional characters.

There is a difference between something being false ( incorrect, not real) and something being a fiction ( a personification of a real force.)

Personifying a force (.... add any name and characterization you want to invent ..) does not change the fact that the force itself does exist in reality even if the characterization of that force is mythical.

Father Time shows his power by causing night and day to pass before our eyes. Does Time ( Father Time) exist in reality or is it all just an illusion created by Energy (God) ?

Time is an illusion created by humans therefore it is illogical to bring it up. Furthermore Father Time is hardly a Norse god so it has nothing to do with my statement. You also brought up God(presumably christian) which again is illogical due to me using Norse gods. Finally, I was to say that these Gods do show themselves through the causation of failure(bad sacrifice) or success(good sacrifice).

If you wish to talk about mythical characters, it makes no difference whether you are talking about Norse Gods, Greek Gods, Hebrew Gods, biblical Gods, Cinderella or Peter Pan or any other characters in non religious fairy tales. The point is they are all as mythical as each other. Not one of them is a real person. All of them are imaginary and exist no place in reality other than in human imagination and literature and other human created media which portrays these characters as teaching tools to teach various lessons and morals applicable to human life.
It is illogical to believe they are anything but personifications and manifestations of various aspects of reality including the imaginary characters in the human imagination.

When humans personify the motivating force within them as God or the Devil, or Muse, or Mickey Mouse or any other name, that motivating force, attitude, inspiration or whatever you want to describe it as, still exists within them regardless of what they call it.
Humans create whatever they imagine and make their imaginations, dreams and visions visible to others through literature, art, music, etc. It is all part of human creativity. Whatever humans create, exists because humans have created it, even if the characters which humans imagine do not exist in reality but only exist in fantasy. Fantasy is part of human reality.
The sad thing is that some people get so lost in their fantasies that they cannot distinguish the difference between an imaginary character and a real one.
Many grow up physically but remain mentally immature in various aspects all their lives.
The "inner child" (son) is always with us. It never leaves or forsakes us.
The same applies to the "inner adult" ( father). That also never leaves or forsakes us but encourages to put away childish things and grow up.
The sad thing is that many prefer to remain children mentally and do not seem to have any desire to grow up or achieve mental maturity, self sufficiency, self reliability, self confidence, etc. They prefer to be followers of their own fantasies than lead themselves and others out of fantasy land.
Skyangel
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5/16/2015 6:39:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/15/2015 2:13:59 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 5/14/2015 6:32:45 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Do you believe in an after life in spite of claiming to not need one?

I believe what the Bible tells. And Bible tells:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

What is written is obviously written. How readers interpret what has been written is quite another thing and can differ greatly from what the writer intended.

For example, how do you and other readers interpret the term "eternal punishment" ?

Do you really think that the people who do not feed the hungry on this Earth and do not visit people in prison and do not clothe the naked and do not take strangers in, will end up being eternally punished for being neglectful ? Will they be punished for having no reason to visit anyone in prison and absolutely no reason to welcome absolute strangers into their home, especially if they don't know if the strangers are trustworthy or not?

Why punish anyone at all for not doing what they have absolutely no reason or motivation to do?

Even if a person did have a reason to visit someone in jail for example and did not do it for a different reason, why punish them for all eternity for a temporary choice to do or not do something?

Is the punishment an eternal self punishment and lack of self forgiveness?
Is it a punishment from another person who is offended that you did not do something they think you ought to have done?
Is it some eternal punishment from some invisible entity who cannot ever forgive a mere mortal for doing what the immortal entity considers to be wrong?
Skyangel
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5/16/2015 6:46:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/15/2015 2:13:59 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 5/14/2015 6:32:45 PM, Skyangel wrote:

Probably it is not correct to call it afterlife, when it seems to be rather one life that never ends, but the form may change.


Life is constantly changing form. Do you punish your inner child for all eternity for doing something stupid or for being foolish?
Do you think your foolishness or stupidity in any area of life at all should be punished for all eternity or should it be forgiven and forgotten?

Are you saying you believe in a mythical character because of the message?

Yes one reason is the message. I don"t believe people would have written Bible, if God would not be real.


Do you think writers would have invented mythical characters if the characters were not real?
Don't you think all mythical characters are very real in the imaginations of those who "dream them up" ?
Imaginations are obviously very real but that does not make the characters we imagine to be real, a reality.
Humans create their own reality and tend to get lost in their own mind and imaginations.
Skyangel
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5/16/2015 7:39:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/15/2015 2:13:59 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 5/14/2015 6:32:45 PM, Skyangel wrote:

The bible knows nothing. Humans wrote the bible. The writers obviously had very creative insights into the human psyche, human emotions, human conscience, cause and effect, etc. Ultimately human writers create their own gods by personifying their own thoughts and emotions as the thoughts and emotions of gods.

And what makes you believe all that? I have no good reason to believe the story you have created.

Logic and personal experience makes me believe that human writers, inventors, artists, composers, etc have great imaginations and can create whatever they decide to create. Humans are very creative creatures. It would not surprise me one bit if in the future our descendants create another planet Earth. People can create anything they can imagine if they have the resources to make it happen. Humans have the ability to make their own dreams come true. I know how to make my dreams come true. I just cannot always make it happen for various reasons.

Authors can make anything happen in their stories and easily predict what is to come and make their own predictions come true in the stories because after all they are the creators of their own stories.

I don"t think people can generally write something now correctly that will happen after about 2000 years.

You can when you know about cycles which repeat themselves.

You do not need to worship a mythical character in order to live in Love.

Everyone who really loves also "worships" love.

That depends on your definition of the word worship.
No one builds churches or temples to Love and performs religious rituals to Love or prays to Love as if it was a person who could hear them.
To live and act in love is to respect and honor or worship the attitude and concept itself. There is no need to personify it as an invisible supernatural character when the whole attitude is physically personified through you. You become Love personified when you live and act in Love.

Many Atheists live in love and do good to their fellow man. Many of them are more loving than some believers in God.

Unfortunately I don"t see that to be true.

Maybe you have not seen both sides of the fence to be able to make comparisons.

I have seen and experienced the same attitudes and actions in believers as I have in unbelievers. From my personal observations, I can only conclude that human nature, action and reaction does not depend on belief in any supernatural entities.

Does that not seem very foolish when you personify a human attitude like that and start taking to it as if it could actually hear you?

I speak about love as defined in the Bible. By that definition it is more than human feeling.

Obviously Love is more than a feeling. It is also an action and attitude but it is definitely not an invisible person. Love is very visible and anyone can experience it, give and receive it.

Love is an attitude humans adopt or reject.

That can be partially true. However I don"t think people know true love, without knowing God.

That is not true at all.
An Atheist saved my life once and expected no reward or thanks for it. It actually cost him a large part of his own life to save mine. That is true love from someone who did not claim to know God. To lay your own life on the line for another without expecting any thanks or reward at all is true love.

Love is a natural human characteristic and attribute.

What do you mean with love?

The same as you do. The act of caring for other people and living things. The act of seeing another in need and fulfilling that need when possible. The act of compassion, the act of kindness, helpfulness, honesty, generosity, correction, and so many other things which love consists of.
Love is a strong force which can be emotional as well as quite unemotional but simply a deliberate but random act of kindness to a random stranger. True love is an act in which you expect nothing in return, not even acknowledgement for your kindness when you do that act anonymously.

Love is personified through humans who are very real.
Love is not an invisible supernatural person.
Love is very visible, tangible,observable and has a strong affect on humans.
Skyangel
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5/16/2015 7:43:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/15/2015 6:12:55 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 5/13/2015 4:21:28 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Most mature adults understand that all supernatural gods are mythical.
Supernatural Gods are all personified forces of nature.

Why do any people still worship and idolize any gods in this day and age?

Why do you think people have the need to hold on to their invisible supernatural characters and stories about an after life?

Do you think humans will ever grow up mentally and put away superstitious beliefs?

There is a MOST HIGH intellect to have evolved within the eternal evolving universe that continually oscillates between invisible energy and visible matter, who can traverse not only space but also Time and He descended to the very beginning before Space and Time came into existence, and He knows everything that you have ever done or will ever do, because that was all done in his Past.

I AM that intellect.

God is the Supreme Personality to evolve within the eternal evolving universe, The MOST HIGH in the creation, and the Godhead of all that has evolved. He is "THE SON OF MAN," who, in your erroneous concept of one directional time, is still only, currently, developing within the body of Mankind, which is his physical and corruptible temporary tent=tabernacle in this point in your time, as he awaits the creation of his new glorious incorruptible energised body of brilliant and blinding light.

I AM that I AM.

You presume a lot yet know nothing.