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Qur'an: Muslims "AGAINST" those who...?

Mr_Eno_Otu
Posts: 118
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5/17/2015 4:06:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
...so I was just reading Qur'an 2:136-137, and in reading it I saw very plainly that the Muslims are "AGAINST"/supposed to be "AGAINST" those who don't believe as they believe. Here is Qur'an 2:136-137:

"(136) Say ye:'We believe in Allah, and
The revelation given to us, and
To Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob,
And the decendents (children
Of Jacob) and that given to
Moses and Jesus and that given
To (all) Prophets from their Lord:
We make no difference
Between one and another of them:
And we bow to Allah (in Islam).'

"(137)So if they believe
As ye believe, they are indeed
On the right path; but if
They turn back, it is they
who are in schism; but Allah will
Suffice thee as AGAINST THEM,
And He is the All-Hearing,
The All-Knowing."

Here we can see that Muslims are "AGAINST"/are supposed to be "AGAINST" those who don't believe as they believe.

Any thoughts on this?...
"La, la, la. Whatever. La, la, la. It doesn't matter. La, la, la. Oh well. La, la, la..."
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,598
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5/17/2015 9:03:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 4:06:05 AM, Mr_Eno_Otu wrote:
...so I was just reading Qur'an 2:136-137, and in reading it I saw very plainly that the Muslims are "AGAINST"/supposed to be "AGAINST" those who don't believe as they believe. Here is Qur'an 2:136-137:

"(136) Say ye:'We believe in Allah, and
The revelation given to us, and
To Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob,
And the decendents (children
Of Jacob) and that given to
Moses and Jesus and that given
To (all) Prophets from their Lord:
We make no difference
Between one and another of them:
And we bow to Allah (in Islam).'

"(137)So if they believe
As ye believe, they are indeed
On the right path; but if
They turn back, it is they
who are in schism; but Allah will
Suffice thee as AGAINST THEM,
And He is the All-Hearing,
The All-Knowing."

Here we can see that Muslims are "AGAINST"/are supposed to be "AGAINST" those who don't believe as they believe.

Any thoughts on this?...

You can see the various translations of the verse, which is usually meant as "defense" against those who don't believe who are considered offenders.

http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk...

Of course, the word "defense" has many implications with Islamic propagandists who will conjure all kinds of things they consider of being in defense. Drawing cartoons of Muhammad, for example, is highly offensive to Muslims, hence they will see that as an attack on Islam and will react, not in kind, but violently, because Islam allows them to turn to violence if they decide they are being attacked. And, they decide that often, so much so, they have come up with a term for it; Islamophobia.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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5/17/2015 9:19:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 4:06:05 AM, Mr_Eno_Otu wrote:
...so I was just reading Qur'an 2:136-137, and in reading it

- You weren't reading the Qur'an! Please don't lie, you came up with these verses from some anti-Islamic website.

I saw very plainly that the Muslims are "AGAINST"/supposed to be "AGAINST" those who don't believe as they believe. Here is Qur'an 2:136-137:

"(136) Say ye:'We believe in Allah, and
The revelation given to us, and
To Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob,
And the decendents (children
Of Jacob) and that given to
Moses and Jesus and that given
To (all) Prophets from their Lord:
We make no difference
Between one and another of them:
And we bow to Allah (in Islam).'

"(137)So if they believe
As ye believe, they are indeed
On the right path; but if
They turn back, it is they
who are in schism; but Allah will
Suffice thee as AGAINST THEM,
And He is the All-Hearing,
The All-Knowing."

Here we can see that Muslims are "AGAINST"/are supposed to be "AGAINST" those who don't believe as they believe.

Any thoughts on this?...

- What do you mean by "AGAINST", as in, in Religion, in that case, then yes. Every religion's beliefs are mutually exclusive to others. If you mean by "AGAINST" some sorta fighting or hostility, then NO. If you believe otherwise, by all means debate me.
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Mr_Eno_Otu
Posts: 118
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5/17/2015 9:25:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
You can see the various translations of the verse, which is usually meant as "defense" against those who don't believe who are considered offenders.

http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk...

Of course, the word "defense" has many implications with Islamic propagandists who will conjure all kinds of things they consider of being in defense. Drawing cartoons of Muhammad, for example, is highly offensive to Muslims, hence they will see that as an attack on Islam and will react, not in kind, but violently, because Islam allows them to turn to violence if they decide they are being attacked. And, they decide that often, so much so, they have come up with a term for it; Islamophobia.

Well according to my studies, all translations are not accurate translations and the Yusuf Ali translation is the STANDARD for Sunni Muslims...the Yusuf Ali translation says:

"(137)So if they believe
As ye believe, they are indeed
On the right path; but if
They turn back, it is they
who are in schism; but Allah will
Suffice thee as AGAINST THEM,
And He is the All-Hearing,
The All-Knowing."

It plainly shows show kind of proclaimed NECESSARILY EXISTING conflict for Muslims between them and "those who don't believe as they believe"...
"La, la, la. Whatever. La, la, la. It doesn't matter. La, la, la. Oh well. La, la, la..."
Mr_Eno_Otu
Posts: 118
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5/17/2015 9:36:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
- You weren't reading the Qur'an! Please don't lie, you came up with these verses from some anti-Islamic website.

- What do you mean by "AGAINST", as in, in Religion, in that case, then yes. Every religion's beliefs are mutually exclusive to others. If you mean by "AGAINST" some sorta fighting or hostility, then NO. If you believe otherwise, by all means debate me.

No Sir lol, I was reading the Qur'an LOL...if you don't know what the word "against" means, you can visit http://www.merriam-webster.com... . You appear to be contending that the God of Islam can not make "Himself" clear and needs "His" servants to ADD words to "His" words to make them clear. Is that what you are contending? LOL

"His" words are "...but Allah will Suffice thee as AGAINST THEM,..." not, "...but Allah will suffice thee as AGAINST THEM in religion,..." Quit adding to "God's" word unless you are saying that "He" does need help to make "Himself" clear while the Qur'an claims that "He" is "self-sufficient" LOL.
"La, la, la. Whatever. La, la, la. It doesn't matter. La, la, la. Oh well. La, la, la..."
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,598
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5/17/2015 9:39:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 9:19:01 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 5/17/2015 4:06:05 AM, Mr_Eno_Otu wrote:
...so I was just reading Qur'an 2:136-137, and in reading it

- You weren't reading the Qur'an! Please don't lie, you came up with these verses from some anti-Islamic website.

Ah yes, I knew this would come up sooner or later.

@Mr_Eno_Otu. be prepared for all kinds of tactics from our onboard Islamic propagandist such as these. He will complain to no end of any sources you provide as being invalid if he doesn't personally approve them. This is just one of the reasons why no one wants to debate him.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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5/17/2015 9:40:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 9:36:18 AM, Mr_Eno_Otu wrote:
- You weren't reading the Qur'an! Please don't lie, you came up with these verses from some anti-Islamic website.

- What do you mean by "AGAINST", as in, in Religion, in that case, then yes. Every religion's beliefs are mutually exclusive to others. If you mean by "AGAINST" some sorta fighting or hostility, then NO. If you believe otherwise, by all means debate me.

No Sir lol, I was reading the Qur'an LOL...if you don't know what the word "against" means, you can visit http://www.merriam-webster.com... . You appear to be contending that the God of Islam can not make "Himself" clear and needs "His" servants to ADD words to "His" words to make them clear. Is that what you are contending? LOL

"His" words are "...but Allah will Suffice thee as AGAINST THEM,..." not, "...but Allah will suffice thee as AGAINST THEM in religion,..." Quit adding to "God's" word unless you are saying that "He" does need help to make "Himself" clear while the Qur'an claims that "He" is "self-sufficient" LOL.

- See, you're already arguing. So, how about you hold on to that argument, & debate me on formal settings. As, I said, I can debate in anything Islam related, ANYTHING, just name it.
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Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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5/17/2015 9:44:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 9:39:44 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/17/2015 9:19:01 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 5/17/2015 4:06:05 AM, Mr_Eno_Otu wrote:
...so I was just reading Qur'an 2:136-137, and in reading it

- You weren't reading the Qur'an! Please don't lie, you came up with these verses from some anti-Islamic website.

Ah yes, I knew this would come up sooner or later.

@Mr_Eno_Otu. be prepared for all kinds of tactics from our onboard Islamic propagandist such as these. He will complain to no end of any sources you provide as being invalid if he doesn't personally approve them. This is just one of the reasons why no one wants to debate him.

- Since you have no intention of stopping this behaviour, then the challenge is on you too. If you disagree with anything Islam related, then debate me. & sources must be Reliable, I know you're not familiar with the concept, but that's just how proper debates work.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,598
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5/17/2015 9:51:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 9:44:05 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 5/17/2015 9:39:44 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/17/2015 9:19:01 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 5/17/2015 4:06:05 AM, Mr_Eno_Otu wrote:
...so I was just reading Qur'an 2:136-137, and in reading it

- You weren't reading the Qur'an! Please don't lie, you came up with these verses from some anti-Islamic website.

Ah yes, I knew this would come up sooner or later.

@Mr_Eno_Otu. be prepared for all kinds of tactics from our onboard Islamic propagandist such as these. He will complain to no end of any sources you provide as being invalid if he doesn't personally approve them. This is just one of the reasons why no one wants to debate him.

- Since you have no intention of stopping this behaviour, then the challenge is on you too. If you disagree with anything Islam related, then debate me. & sources must be Reliable, I know you're not familiar with the concept, but that's just how proper debates work.

Why should I? I've already witnessed your dishonest tactics with others you've debated. Not only that, I showed you where your so-called prophecies were merely rip offs of earlier civilizations and you just balked at that and went on repeating the same prophecies. It was a joke.

Yes, the sources must be reliable, but in the case of debating you, there are no sources that are reliable unless you personally state they are, and only then, they must be sanctioned by an Islamic licensed scholar; ie. another Islamic propagandist.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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5/17/2015 9:58:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 9:51:19 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Why should I? I've already witnessed your dishonest tactics with others you've debated. Not only that, I showed you where your so-called prophecies were merely rip offs of earlier civilizations and you just balked at that and went on repeating the same prophecies. It was a joke.

- You never argued or proved ANYTHING, EVER. & if you did, show me, & I'll quit this Forum.

Yes, the sources must be reliable, but in the case of debating you, there are no sources that are reliable unless you personally state they are, and only then, they must be sanctioned by an Islamic licensed scholar; ie. another Islamic propagandist.

- This discussion is an utter waste of my time, it's too intellectually retarded for me. If you have anything to say, debate me, this is a debate website after all. If you're incapable of debating me, then you & I have nothing further to discuss, & I am not interested.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
tsume
Posts: 1
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5/17/2015 10:03:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 9:51:19 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/17/2015 9:44:05 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 5/17/2015 9:39:44 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/17/2015 9:19:01 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 5/17/2015 4:06:05 AM, Mr_Eno_Otu wrote:
...so I was just reading Qur'an 2:136-137, and in reading it

- You weren't reading the Qur'an! Please don't lie, you came up with these verses from some anti-Islamic website.

Ah yes, I knew this would come up sooner or later.

@Mr_Eno_Otu. be prepared for all kinds of tactics from our onboard Islamic propagandist such as these. He will complain to no end of any sources you provide as being invalid if he doesn't personally approve them. This is just one of the reasons why no one wants to debate him.

- Since you have no intention of stopping this behaviour, then the challenge is on you too. If you disagree with anything Islam related, then debate me. & sources must be Reliable, I know you're not familiar with the concept, but that's just how proper debates work.

Why should I? I've already witnessed your dishonest tactics with others you've debated. Not only that, I showed you where your so-called prophecies were merely rip offs of earlier civilizations and you just balked at that and went on repeating the same prophecies. It was a joke.

Yes, the sources must be reliable, but in the case of debating you, there are no sources that are reliable unless you personally state they are, and only then, they must be sanctioned by an Islamic licensed scholar; ie. another Islamic propagandist.

seriously? honestly, what do you know about someone else's religion? And the Qur'an condemns apostates. All religions condemn apostates, except Buddhism, which some don't even consider a religion. All religions disagree with each other, why do you focus on Islam specifically. I've met many nice Muslim people, and they haven't prejudiced my Christian faith, ever. I don't see why you try to propagate a message of hate towards Islam.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,598
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5/17/2015 10:03:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 9:58:32 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 5/17/2015 9:51:19 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Why should I? I've already witnessed your dishonest tactics with others you've debated. Not only that, I showed you where your so-called prophecies were merely rip offs of earlier civilizations and you just balked at that and went on repeating the same prophecies. It was a joke.

- You never argued or proved ANYTHING, EVER. & if you did, show me, & I'll quit this Forum.

LOL. Yeah, here we go again. Your denials have once again been noted.

Yes, the sources must be reliable, but in the case of debating you, there are no sources that are reliable unless you personally state they are, and only then, they must be sanctioned by an Islamic licensed scholar; ie. another Islamic propagandist.

- This discussion is an utter waste of my time, it's too intellectually retarded for me. If you have anything to say, debate me, this is a debate website after all. If you're incapable of debating me, then you & I have nothing further to discuss, & I am not interested.

So, now it's "intellectually retarded"? LOL. That's an excuse for saying you deny that which is placed in front of you as fact when it contradicts your beliefs.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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5/17/2015 10:13:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 10:03:59 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

LOL. Yeah, here we go again. Your denials have once again been noted.
So, now it's "intellectually retarded"? LOL. That's an excuse for saying you deny that which is placed in front of you as fact when it contradicts your beliefs.

- There is nothing to deny. Unless I am blind, I don't see any arguments or proofs or fact, do you see any?!
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Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,598
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5/17/2015 10:17:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 10:13:19 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 5/17/2015 10:03:59 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

LOL. Yeah, here we go again. Your denials have once again been noted.
So, now it's "intellectually retarded"? LOL. That's an excuse for saying you deny that which is placed in front of you as fact when it contradicts your beliefs.

- There is nothing to deny. Unless I am blind, I don't see any arguments or proofs or fact, do you see any?!

I provided that some time ago when you related a prophecy regarding the wearing of certain types of clothing, which had already been practiced by earlier civilizations, hence the prophecy was nothing more than a rip off of those civilizations choices of apparel.

You simply denied this and continued to use that prophecy in future posts.

No, you weren't blind at the time, just in a state of denial.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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5/17/2015 10:40:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 10:17:34 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

I provided that some time ago when you related a prophecy regarding the wearing of certain types of clothing, which had already been practiced by earlier civilizations, hence the prophecy was nothing more than a rip off of those civilizations choices of apparel.

You simply denied this and continued to use that prophecy in future posts.

No, you weren't blind at the time, just in a state of denial.

- You seem to be sure of yourself, so how about you bring me your proof, & I leave this website, it's a win win situation.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,598
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5/17/2015 10:50:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 10:40:56 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 5/17/2015 10:17:34 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

I provided that some time ago when you related a prophecy regarding the wearing of certain types of clothing, which had already been practiced by earlier civilizations, hence the prophecy was nothing more than a rip off of those civilizations choices of apparel.

You simply denied this and continued to use that prophecy in future posts.

No, you weren't blind at the time, just in a state of denial.

- You seem to be sure of yourself, so how about you bring me your proof, & I leave this website, it's a win win situation.

Yeah, I did that at the time, yet you're still here.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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5/17/2015 10:53:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 10:50:16 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Yeah, I did that at the time, yet you're still here.

- I am? I wonder why that is!!! Maybe this is your chance to prove yourself & bring this damning proof, & show it to everybody. I am sure someone like you wouldn't mind winning for once.
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Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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5/17/2015 11:21:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 4:06:05 AM, Mr_Eno_Otu wrote:
...so I was just reading Qur'an 2:136-137, and in reading it I saw very plainly that the Muslims are "AGAINST"/supposed to be "AGAINST" those who don't believe as they believe. Here is Qur'an 2:136-137:

"(136) Say ye:'We believe in Allah, and
The revelation given to us, and
To Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob,
And the decendents (children
Of Jacob) and that given to
Moses and Jesus and that given
To (all) Prophets from their Lord:
We make no difference
Between one and another of them:
And we bow to Allah (in Islam).'

"(137)So if they believe
As ye believe, they are indeed
On the right path; but if
They turn back, it is they
who are in schism; but Allah will
Suffice thee as AGAINST THEM,
And He is the All-Hearing,
The All-Knowing."

Here we can see that Muslims are "AGAINST"/are supposed to be "AGAINST" those who don't believe as they believe.

Any thoughts on this?...
Against is a relative word, used in the sentence, needed to construct the proposition for God's "sufficiency" for believers. And sufficiency means here, the protection of God and protection has to be against something, to be meaningful. Hence the verse contains the God's (sufficient) help (to believers) as a subject instead of believers being against someone (themselves). Apart, by logic too, if you are on a position, you're supposed to be against the other position (being against other position is to guarantee that you hold your position [of believing] without any doubt).

Usually Translations don't vary in the content (if they're good) but presentation of verse-sentence has to be comprehensive to convey the meaning in totality (for reader's clarity). So see the translation provided below. It explains to you the context of the word "against", though it's also clear by your (provided) translation but due to preciseness [wordily translation instead of being explanatory], it caused ambiguity to you. Thus my translation isn't changing the words/content rather elaborates the part "...ALLAH will suffice thee against them".

Quran: Surah Al-Baqarah (2)
135. And (the People of the Book) say: "Become Jews or Christians, then you will be guided aright." Say: "(Nay,) the truth is that we have embraced the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham) who, far from every falsehood, turned absolutely to Allah alone. And he was not of the polytheists."
136. (O Muslims!) Say: "We believe in Allah and in that (Book) which has been revealed to us and (also) that which was revealed to Ibrahim (Abraham) and Isma"il (Ishmael) and Ishaq (Isaac) and Ya"qub (Jacob) and their children and those (Books) too which were given to Musa (Moses) and "Isa (Jesus) and (likewise) which were given to other Prophets by their Lord. We do not make distinction between any of them (in the matter of faith), and we have submitted ourselves to Him alone (the Only, the One God)."
137. Then if they (also) believe the way you have believed in Him, then they will (surely) be guided aright. And if they turn away, then (be clear) that they are sunk in sheer enmity. So Allah is sufficient to guard you against their evil and He is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.

It is very easy to comprehend the topic of this Surah if you read the next consecutive verses also.

138. (Say that we have taken on the colour from) Allah"s own colour, and whose colour is better than Allah"s? And we worship Him alone.

139. Say: "Do you dispute with us about Allah, whereas He is (not only) our Lord but your Lord (too)? And to us are our works and to you are your works. And we are truly devoted to Him alone.

140. (O People of the Book!) Do you say that Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma"il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), Ya"qub (Jacob) and their sons were either Jews or Christians?" Say: "Who knows better, you or Allah?" And who is more unjust than he who hides the testimony which is with him (in the Book) from Allah? And Allah is not unaware of your deeds.

141. That was a community which has passed. For them is what they earned and for you is what you will earn. And you will not be asked about their deeds.

142. Now the foolish will say: "What has turned away these (Muslims) from their Qibla (Bayt al-Maqdis in Jerusalem) to which they used to face (before)?" Say: "The east and the west (all) belong to Allah alone. He guides whom He pleases to the straight path."

......

146. And those to whom We have given the Book recognize (the Final) Messenger (the Venerable Muhammad [blessings and peace be upon him] and his glory and majesty) as they doubtlessly identify their own sons. But certainly, a party of them is deliberately concealing the truth.

147. (O listener!) The truth is from your Lord. So, never be of those who doubt.


Also Surat Al-kafirun (109) (the-disbelievers) clearly states that....

1. Say: "O disbelievers!
2. I do not worship that which you worship.
3. Nor do you worship Whom I worship.
4. And I shall never worship that which you worship.
5. Nor will you worship Whom I worship.
6. (So) you have your din (religion), and I have my Din (Religion)."
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
Dazz
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5/17/2015 11:27:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 10:03:54 AM, tsume wrote:
At 5/17/2015 9:51:19 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/17/2015 9:44:05 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 5/17/2015 9:39:44 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/17/2015 9:19:01 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 5/17/2015 4:06:05 AM, Mr_Eno_Otu wrote:
...so I was just reading Qur'an 2:136-137, and in reading it

- You weren't reading the Qur'an! Please don't lie, you came up with these verses from some anti-Islamic website.

Ah yes, I knew this would come up sooner or later.

@Mr_Eno_Otu. be prepared for all kinds of tactics from our onboard Islamic propagandist such as these. He will complain to no end of any sources you provide as being invalid if he doesn't personally approve them. This is just one of the reasons why no one wants to debate him.

- Since you have no intention of stopping this behaviour, then the challenge is on you too. If you disagree with anything Islam related, then debate me. & sources must be Reliable, I know you're not familiar with the concept, but that's just how proper debates work.

Why should I? I've already witnessed your dishonest tactics with others you've debated. Not only that, I showed you where your so-called prophecies were merely rip offs of earlier civilizations and you just balked at that and went on repeating the same prophecies. It was a joke.

Yes, the sources must be reliable, but in the case of debating you, there are no sources that are reliable unless you personally state they are, and only then, they must be sanctioned by an Islamic licensed scholar; ie. another Islamic propagandist.

seriously? honestly, what do you know about someone else's religion? And the Qur'an condemns apostates. All religions condemn apostates, except Buddhism, which some don't even consider a religion. All religions disagree with each other, why do you focus on Islam specifically. I've met many nice Muslim people, and they haven't prejudiced my Christian faith, ever. I don't see why you try to propagate a message of hate towards Islam.
Thanks for clutching the spammers of disdain. And this is a million dollar question. [what do you know about someone else's religion]. And this [ I've met many nice Muslim people] is because you yourself are nice ;)
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
TheWORDisLIFE
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5/17/2015 12:05:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 4:06:05 AM, Mr_Eno_Otu wrote:
...so I was just reading Qur'an 2:136-137, and in reading it I saw very plainly that the Muslims are "AGAINST"/supposed to be "AGAINST" those who don't believe as they believe. Here is Qur'an 2:136-137:

"(136) Say ye:'We believe in Allah, and
The revelation given to us, and
To Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob,
And the decendents (children
Of Jacob) and that given to
Moses and Jesus and that given
To (all) Prophets from their Lord:
We make no difference
Between one and another of them:
And we bow to Allah (in Islam).'

"(137)So if they believe
As ye believe, they are indeed
On the right path; but if
They turn back, it is they
who are in schism; but Allah will
Suffice thee as AGAINST THEM,
And He is the All-Hearing,
The All-Knowing."

Here we can see that Muslims are "AGAINST"/are supposed to be "AGAINST" those who don't believe as they believe.

Any thoughts on this?...

The Qur'an is joke; no promise was given to Ishmael. The promise was give the Jacob - Isaiah 41:8.

All the Qur'an is, is a recitation of the book of the Israelites, the Bible. Qur'an means to recite.

from Arabic qur'an "recitation," from qara'a "read, recite."
DanneJeRusse
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5/17/2015 12:08:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 10:53:14 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 5/17/2015 10:50:16 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Yeah, I did that at the time, yet you're still here.

- I am? I wonder why that is!!!

Because you deny factual evidence in favor of your false prophecies.

Maybe this is your chance to prove yourself & bring this damning proof, & show it to everybody. I am sure someone like you wouldn't mind winning for once.

Winning what? There's nothing to win. Your denials are evidence enough to show no one wins.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
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5/17/2015 12:09:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 12:08:38 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/17/2015 10:53:14 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 5/17/2015 10:50:16 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Yeah, I did that at the time, yet you're still here.

- I am? I wonder why that is!!!

Because you deny factual evidence in favor of your false prophecies.

And, if any of your so-called prophesies can be shown as false, then your house of Islamic propaganda cards falls down.

Maybe this is your chance to prove yourself & bring this damning proof, & show it to everybody. I am sure someone like you wouldn't mind winning for once.

Winning what? There's nothing to win. Your denials are evidence enough to show no one wins.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Mr_Eno_Otu
Posts: 118
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5/17/2015 12:44:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Against is a relative word, used in the sentence, needed to construct the proposition for God's "sufficiency" for believers. And sufficiency means here, the protection of God and protection has to be against something, to be meaningful. Hence the verse contains the God's (sufficient) help (to believers) as a subject instead of believers being against someone (themselves)...

You are playing word games Sir...the verse plainly says that the Muslims and "Allah" are "AGAINST" those who believe not "as [the Muslims] believe."

If you don't know what "against" means, here is a link to the definition for it: http://www.merriam-webster.com... .

Again for all to see:

"(136) Say ye:'We believe in Allah, and
The revelation given to us, and
To Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob,
And the decendents (children
Of Jacob) and that given to
Moses and Jesus and that given
To (all) Prophets from their Lord:
We make no difference
Between one and another of them:
And we bow to Allah (in Islam).'

"(137)So if they believe
As ye believe, they are indeed
On the right path; but if
They turn back, it is they
who are in schism; but Allah will
Suffice thee as AGAINST THEM,
And He is the All-Hearing,
The All-Knowing." Qur'an 2:136-137
"La, la, la. Whatever. La, la, la. It doesn't matter. La, la, la. Oh well. La, la, la..."
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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5/17/2015 1:02:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 12:44:47 PM, Mr_Eno_Otu wrote:
Against is a relative word, used in the sentence, needed to construct the proposition for God's "sufficiency" for believers. And sufficiency means here, the protection of God and protection has to be against something, to be meaningful. Hence the verse contains the God's (sufficient) help (to believers) as a subject instead of believers being against someone (themselves)...

You are playing word games Sir...the verse plainly says that the Muslims and "Allah" are "AGAINST" those who believe not "as [the Muslims] believe."

If you don't know what "against" means, here is a link to the definition for it: http://www.merriam-webster.com... .

Again for all to see:

"(136) Say ye:'We believe in Allah, and
The revelation given to us, and
To Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob,
And the decendents (children
Of Jacob) and that given to
Moses and Jesus and that given
To (all) Prophets from their Lord:
We make no difference
Between one and another of them:
And we bow to Allah (in Islam).'

"(137)So if they believe
As ye believe, they are indeed
On the right path; but if
They turn back, it is they
who are in schism; but Allah will
Suffice thee as AGAINST THEM,
And He is the All-Hearing,
The All-Knowing." Qur'an 2:136-137

- How about that debate?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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5/17/2015 1:34:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 12:44:47 PM, Mr_Eno_Otu wrote:
Against is a relative word, used in the sentence, needed to construct the proposition for God's "sufficiency" for believers. And sufficiency means here, the protection of God and protection has to be against something, to be meaningful. Hence the verse contains the God's (sufficient) help (to believers) as a subject instead of believers being against someone (themselves)...

You are playing word games Sir...the verse plainly says that the Muslims and "Allah" are "AGAINST" those who believe not "as [the Muslims] believe."
My dear Sir, can you read it apart what you've bold? [Suffice thee as AGAINST THEM.]

But still If you pressurize over the "word" of "against", then know clearly that in actual Arabic verse (137:2), no word exists equivalent to "against". The Arabic part translated as [Suffice thee (you) as AGAINST THEM.], has just 2 Arabic words, as follows.

1. Fa-sa-yak-fi-ka-hum(u)
2. ALLAH(u)

where

1. Fa= thus, ya=letter of addition to root as for grammar rule, kfi = root (has meaning of being sufficient), ka=for you (single present pronoun), hum=pronoun for 'they/them'. (u) at the end of hum is giving it a form for noun.

2. (u) at the end of word 'ALLAH' is to giving it form for subject/noun.

Now translate yourself (ALLAH is sufficient to you for them)
Thus there is no root word for "against", do you find any?

Hence it makes more sense to add references words (for you & them etc) also, according to English language rules while translating, like:
=>ALLAH is sufficient to you [O Prophet] for [the evil/problem/bad caused by] them
=>ALLAH is sufficient to you [O Prophet] against them
=>ALLAH is sufficient to you [O Prophet] over them

-Hope, it's clear now that it's not me playing word games but you're stuck with the word "against".
-I've clarified you that neither the context nor the words supports your point. Any difference of opinion here? (not hoping so)

If you don't know what "against" means, here is a link to the definition for it: http://www.merriam-webster.com... .

Again for all to see:

"(136) Say ye:'We believe in Allah, and
The revelation given to us, and
To Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob,
And the decendents (children
Of Jacob) and that given to
Moses and Jesus and that given
To (all) Prophets from their Lord:
We make no difference
Between one and another of them:
And we bow to Allah (in Islam).'

"(137)So if they believe
As ye believe, they are indeed
On the right path; but if
They turn back, it is they
who are in schism; but Allah will
Suffice thee as AGAINST THEM,
And He is the All-Hearing,
The All-Knowing." Qur'an 2:136-137
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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5/17/2015 1:41:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 1:34:14 PM, Dazz wrote:
At 5/17/2015 12:44:47 PM, Mr_Eno_Otu wrote:
Against is a relative word, used in the sentence, needed to construct the proposition for God's "sufficiency" for believers. And sufficiency means here, the protection of God and protection has to be against something, to be meaningful. Hence the verse contains the God's (sufficient) help (to believers) as a subject instead of believers being against someone (themselves)...

Correction to my above post (I just noticed it now): it's not "believers" but [here] the addressee is "Prophet" (peace and blessing be upon him) as I explained the reference of "ka" before.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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5/17/2015 1:49:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 1:41:41 PM, Dazz wrote:
At 5/17/2015 1:34:14 PM, Dazz wrote:
At 5/17/2015 12:44:47 PM, Mr_Eno_Otu wrote:
Against is a relative word, used in the sentence, needed to construct the proposition for God's "sufficiency" for believers. And sufficiency means here, the protection of God and protection has to be against something, to be meaningful. Hence the verse contains the God's (sufficient) help (to believers) as a subject instead of believers being against someone (themselves)...

Correction to my above post (I just noticed it now): it's not "believers" but [here] the addressee is "Prophet" (peace and blessing be upon him) as I explained the reference of "ka" before.

O yes, another point.....
=> This is an example [of higher probability] of wrongly translating something without knowing the linguistic rules.
=>As without knowing the usage of the word "ka", one cannot provide the references to "you& them" etc. And can easily be slipped from the context.

-Thus that's why you see how much the comprehensiveness in translation, matters. You see many translations, but rare would provide you such references to pronouns etc.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
Mr_Eno_Otu
Posts: 118
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5/17/2015 3:00:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
My dear Sir, can you read it apart what you've bold? [Suffice thee as AGAINST THEM.]

But still If you pressurize over the "word" of "against", then know clearly that in actual Arabic verse (137:2), no word exists equivalent to "against". The Arabic part translated as [Suffice thee (you) as AGAINST THEM.], has just 2 Arabic words, as follows.

1. Fa-sa-yak-fi-ka-hum(u)
2. ALLAH(u)

where

1. Fa= thus, ya=letter of addition to root as for grammar rule, kfi = root (has meaning of being sufficient), ka=for you (single present pronoun), hum=pronoun for 'they/them'. (u) at the end of hum is giving it a form for noun.

2. (u) at the end of word 'ALLAH' is to giving it form for subject/noun.

Now translate yourself (ALLAH is sufficient to you for them)
Thus there is no root word for "against", do you find any?

Hence it makes more sense to add references words (for you & them etc) also, according to English language rules while translating, like:
=>ALLAH is sufficient to you [O Prophet] for [the evil/problem/bad caused by] them
=>ALLAH is sufficient to you [O Prophet] against them
=>ALLAH is sufficient to you [O Prophet] over them

-Hope, it's clear now that it's not me playing word games but you're stuck with the word "against".
-I've clarified you that neither the context nor the words supports your point. Any difference of opinion here? (not hoping so)

Lolololol well Sir (lol,) why then don't you have a translation of the Qur'an, while the LANGUAGE SCHOLARS who do have a translation of the Qur'an translate the verse as "AGAINST THEM?" LOLOLOL
"La, la, la. Whatever. La, la, la. It doesn't matter. La, la, la. Oh well. La, la, la..."
Mr_Eno_Otu
Posts: 118
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5/17/2015 3:21:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
My dear Sir, can you read it apart what you've bold? [Suffice thee as AGAINST THEM.]

But still If you pressurize over the "word" of "against", then know clearly that in actual Arabic verse (137:2), no word exists equivalent to "against". The Arabic part translated as [Suffice thee (you) as AGAINST THEM.], has just 2 Arabic words, as follows.

1. Fa-sa-yak-fi-ka-hum(u)
2. ALLAH(u)

where

1. Fa= thus, ya=letter of addition to root as for grammar rule, kfi = root (has meaning of being sufficient), ka=for you (single present pronoun), hum=pronoun for 'they/them'. (u) at the end of hum is giving it a form for noun.

2. (u) at the end of word 'ALLAH' is to giving it form for subject/noun.

Now translate yourself (ALLAH is sufficient to you for them)
Thus there is no root word for "against", do you find any?

Hence it makes more sense to add references words (for you & them etc) also, according to English language rules while translating, like:
=>ALLAH is sufficient to you [O Prophet] for [the evil/problem/bad caused by] them
=>ALLAH is sufficient to you [O Prophet] against them
=>ALLAH is sufficient to you [O Prophet] over them

-Hope, it's clear now that it's not me playing word games but you're stuck with the word "against".
-I've clarified you that neither the context nor the words supports your point. Any difference of opinion here? (not hoping so)

...Sorry but I'm going to have to go with the word of your three most acclaimed language scholars over yours, Sir LOLOL:

"So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as AGAINST THEM, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing." Yusuf Ali translation

"So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been [rightly] guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you AGAINST THEM. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing." Al-Hilali & Khan translation
"La, la, la. Whatever. La, la, la. It doesn't matter. La, la, la. Oh well. La, la, la..."
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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5/17/2015 4:12:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 3:21:37 PM, Mr_Eno_Otu wrote:
My dear Sir, can you read it apart what you've bold? [Suffice thee as AGAINST THEM.]

But still If you pressurize over the "word" of "against", then know clearly that in actual Arabic verse (137:2), no word exists equivalent to "against". The Arabic part translated as [Suffice thee (you) as AGAINST THEM.], has just 2 Arabic words, as follows.

1. Fa-sa-yak-fi-ka-hum(u)
2. ALLAH(u)

where

1. Fa= thus, ya=letter of addition to root as for grammar rule, kfi = root (has meaning of being sufficient), ka=for you (single present pronoun), hum=pronoun for 'they/them'. (u) at the end of hum is giving it a form for noun.

2. (u) at the end of word 'ALLAH' is to giving it form for subject/noun.

Now translate yourself (ALLAH is sufficient to you for them)
Thus there is no root word for "against", do you find any?

Hence it makes more sense to add references words (for you & them etc) also, according to English language rules while translating, like:
=>ALLAH is sufficient to you [O Prophet] for [the evil/problem/bad caused by] them
=>ALLAH is sufficient to you [O Prophet] against them
=>ALLAH is sufficient to you [O Prophet] over them

-Hope, it's clear now that it's not me playing word games but you're stuck with the word "against".
-I've clarified you that neither the context nor the words supports your point. Any difference of opinion here? (not hoping so)

Oh please don't repeat the same. I was expecting some maturity from you, Sir.
...Sorry but I'm going to have to go with the word of your three most acclaimed language scholars over yours, Sir LOLOL:
1)Firstly you can't impose over me any restriction to accept what you accept to be authentic. Can you? Either you believe in your sources & keep believing that or talk to me.
2)Secondly, you've just totally ignored my clarification. That was for your thought. Have you had any thought over that? Debunk my provided data if you can, or go home.
3) Thirdly I've not relied my argument over changing the translation or words, rather I've shown you that a child in 3rd grade would probably be capable too, to understand the multiple usage of "against" word.
=>Look you're implying that England is against US because England won the match against US. How silly is this.

So google provided definition of "against" https://www.google.com.pk...+
against: (2) in anticipation of and preparation for (a problem or difficulty).
"he gritted his teeth against the pain"
"it is advisable to insure all oriental rugs against theft"

=>Are the teeth against pain?
=>Are all oriental rugs against theft?
Hope you'd understand, Sir. I'm not gonna reply to same again, if I see no relevant response from you, to my glaringly valid arguments.


"So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as AGAINST THEM, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing." Yusuf Ali translation

"So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been [rightly] guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you AGAINST THEM. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing." Al-Hilali & Khan translation
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~